 Jetzt die untold stories, eine Diashow der beiden Journalisten neben mir aus ihrem Privatarchiven der letzten zwei. Der erste Kolumn hat Heiser.de und Erich Möchel, der Hacker. Dann lasst mich mal kurz beginnen, dass... Lass mich starten und erzählen, warum wir hier sind. Während des letzten Camps haben wir für das erste Mal mit Peter und mich mit dem gleichen Wettbewerb in den 80er-Jahren gesprochen. Der Dettlev war da für die Ärzte. Und wir haben uns geredet. Wir haben den ganzen Tag in der Nähe von wo wir jetzt stehen. Und wir haben einfach geredet, dass wir Spaß haben. Und es waren zuerst fünf Leute neben uns. Dann waren es zehn. Und nach zwei Stunden, da war es eine Kräufe von 30 Menschen. Wir haben uns gedacht, dass wir uns ein Gespräch geben. Und diejenigen, die sagen, dass Grandad über die Kryptoworges gesprochen hat, müssen mit mir mitgehen. Ja, wir haben entschieden, dass wir hier auf dem Stadion kommen müssen. Peter könnte es leider nicht machen. Er ist gut. Aber ich denke, er ist ein bisschen verheiratet nach der Dokumentation. Sie haben mit ihm auf Vau-Holland gefilmt. Und das erklärt ein bisschen das absurdes Bild. So, Detlef Beuchers kann es von hier mit der ersten Episode von der unerwarteten Geschichte beginnen. Es ist eine unerwartete Geschichte, aber es gab ein paar Dinge, die wir in den Tagen gesucht haben, aber die konnten wir nicht publizieren. Das weiß ich nicht. Könnte niemand diese Person wissen? Das ist Frank Gerhard Riemann. Er war der Präsident der CCC, und er wurde später Präsidentin. Und der Grund, warum ich euch Frank zeige, ist das. Beside der Datenschleuder-Magazin, die auf dem Papier wurde, er hat auch den Schalistik und es in verschiedenen Netzwerken in June-Net, wo es unter dem Kommand Bord CCC-Presse gefunden könnte. Und dieser elektronische Wettbewerber, der von Hackers gemacht wurde, hat über Kryptografie gesprochen. Und das wird heute eines der wichtigsten Subjekte sein. Ja. Krypto ist nämlich schon wieder aktuell geworden. Ja, weil Krypto auf der Table ist, mit den Debatten, die auf Kryptografie restriktieren. Die Niveau des Schalistik-E-Net mit diesem Imprint, das ist das, was heute der CCC defines. Die gesamte Menschheit ist... Entschuldigung. Wollt ihr euch das wissen? Es ist Günther Leuhef, der ein T-Shirt holt. Warum holt er es? Er ist die Person, die das Geo-Net-Mail-System, das ihr sehen könnt, in dem Hintergrund. Und... ...wenn diese Foto wurde taken, er war, der honorary president der Chaos Computer Club. Jetzt gibt es andere Menschen, die hier stehen. Man könnte es besser wissen. Andy auf einer Seite, Vau auf der anderen Seite. Und Günther Leuhef, mit dem Diplom, das certifiziert, dass er honorary president ist. Warum wurde er, oder Telekommunikation? Und alle, die, die Dinge mit Data auf der Internet können, werden ein Mitglied dieser Organisation. Sie mussten eine App, und wenn du das gemacht hast, du hattest Legalprotektion für deine Mailbox. Und... ...das hat er honorary president. Das ist das erste Teil meiner Geschichte. Das war, dass es in dem Jahr 1988 passiert. Und ich werde vor den Jahren 1989 und 1990 jumped ahead. Ich war gerade frisch. Ich war gerade frisch. Ich war neu im Urlaub im austrianischen Standard-News-Papier. Ich habe meine eigene Kolumne auf der Media. Und ich oft ging es am Sonntag. Undulturell, Television und die News über hier. So, ich konnte hier reportieren, weil ich hier war, ohne die Kompanie, ohne dass ich weiser war. Und ich habe einen von diesen Dingen gelohnt. Die Newspaper hatte drei von ihnen. Sie hatten drei Toshiba Laptops in black and white, mit zwei Lopi-Drives. Einer für die Operating-Systeme und einer für die Erinnerung. Und ich hatte das. Und ich hatte dieses Akustik-Kapler. Und das hat mich über meine Texte erlaubt. Wir waren auf der Rammstein-Airbase, und wir waren dort oft. Wir haben gesagt, dass wir auf die Airbase gehen. Mein Freund Axel war da, mit ein paar Punkten. Und das ist, wie es angefangen hat. Wir waren komplett von Anfang an gestohnt. Und in diesen hohen Spielen und hinter uns, das Militärpolizei war immer, was wir machen. Wir wollten nicht, was wir machen, was wir machen, was wir machen. Und ich hatte mein Akustik-Kapler und ein Laptop. Und dann sah ich diesen Telefon-Booth. Und ich dachte, ich könnte mit diesem Laptop try Feud-Reportation. Also habe ich das Laptop entgegen. Ich habe die Leute erzählt. Ich habe mir ein Koffer gemacht, dass die Kops mich nicht sehen können. Also habe ich in die 5 Mark-Pieße begonnen. Ich habe das auf die Kuppler. Und dann hat es angefangen, den Akustik-Kapler durch die Luft zu fliegen. Und ich war zurück aus dem Telefon-Booth. Und ich habe mich am nächsten Mal zu einem amerikanischen Militärpolizei, der mich entfernt hat. Und ich hatte zwei Fragen zu antworten für eine Stunde. Ich war komplett aus dem Telefon-Booth. Ich hatte nur ein paar Lippen. Natürlich hatte ich kein Press-Kart, nichts. Und ich habe sie erzählt. Ich wollte Feud-Reportationen. Also haben sie mich nach einer Stunde begonnen, weil die Punkten draußen standen. Und gesagt, wenn Eric rauskommt, wird er bald wieder kommen. Das war mein 1. Mal mit dem deutschen und amerikanischen Militärpolizei in der gleichen Zeit. Und ich habe zwei Lippen getroffen. Ein kleines Englisch-Insert. Das ist in Yellow, weil die Kompany hat Yellow als ihre Colour. Lotus Notes, das war die Lotus Colour. Jetzt sind wir in dem Jahr 1996. Und Lotus, dann hatte der so-called Lotus-Government-Forum. Und ein Lotus-Person stood up und sagte, da ist Information-Superiority. Und das ist, was wir haben, zu nutzen. Es war die Zeit des Bosnien-Konflikts. Und wir erzählen Milosevic genau, was wir tun und was die Information, was wir haben, um ihn zu haben. Und das wird ihm sehen, dass wir viel stärker sind und er verhindert sich. Und das wird eine Waffe preventieren. Es gab viele Applaus für das. Aber es ist nicht ganz anders geworden. Man muss sich an den Kosovo-Konflikt nachdenken, wo Milosevic es einfach nicht geholfen hat. Er hat einfach die Waffe geklappt. Und das ist meine Erklärung von einem Artikel. Knowledge-Management war supposed to strengthen the German forces as a Peace Corps, but there was a disadvantage. Lotus Notes did encrypt, but not sufficiently for in an American use. They were using 128 bits, but the Europeans only received Lotus Notes with a version that used 50 bits, or was it 56. That was important because the German authority had 60,000 licenses, and up to the year 2003 they were going to equip, use 80,000 of these licenses for this product. And that, and the minister, the civil servants responsible for acquisition, this was in 1997, went ahead and said, this is completely unacceptable to us. If we are going to use a software that the NSA can control, that is just not on for the German military. But he left open how this was going to be secured, but the response clearly was, the message clearly was, we want to be safe from the NSA, and it has to be said. This forum for NATO and the military consultants was intended for NATO and military consultants. I wasn't going to report, I wasn't supposed to report on this. I went to the meeting about information superiority, where this concept was discussed. But I wasn't admitted and just stayed in the room after another talk and could hear and record and take papers with me. That is another section, and I'm going to move back, the key word is take papers with you. That will have a player role later on. In 1995, in 1996, in February 1995, I became a World Wide Web Enthusiast, spent three months there until one of my friends showed me trace route and other commands, and then I said, just don't tell me that this is all going to be transmitted in clear text. And he said, yes, of course it is. It's all in clear. And I said, are you crazy? That is less safe than a letter. Yes. Well, he said, we just won't have time to read this all. Transmit far too fast. It's all growing, bandwidth is growing much faster than storage capabilities. So that's how they convinced themselves. And then in 1996, I was presented an online magazine, which was run by three techies, and they simply ran out of content. They underestimated the amount of work it takes to run such a publication that it has to appear. And that is a heap of work. So, as a result from a nearly entertaining magazine, it was swiftly converted to a civil rights magazine. And in 1997, this magazine had, was raided, much like the raid on CompuServe in Munich. This provider there was raided and the servers were taken out away from the shelves for running because they were carrying usnet groups. And because perhaps something like sex or something appeared in there as well. And of course, then we caught this cotton, is investigating on the internet cotton, being a famous Austrian satire of a crime series. And the internet actually in Austria overnight, the internet was simply reduced to zero. Everything that was on the internet was taken down. That never happened again. And something else we did. If cryptography is a weapon, then we will start a weapons store. And this was supposed to be an animated GIF. And we called this an a ward for clogged up lines, which didn't make many people happy. But people said, well, I just told them, fuck yourself, that's my answer to this. If someone tells me to stop something, then I'll respond. I wasn't going to say this. I intended to say, please just walk off. I didn't know what to actually say. So, criticism suddenly became a member of the global internet campaign, the magazine. And cryptography was the sole topic all of a sudden. And we were all waiting until the first GUI version of PGP would come out. It didn't exist at the time. That was a very fresh project. And on the global internet liberty campaign mailing list, you had everyone that had rank and name worldwide. It wasn't just something small. And everywhere, they were looking for the OECD recommendations for cryptography, which was in the last draft stages. And I in Vienna, and I will come to this in the next section, was zu Hans Zeig. Suddenly, Data Protector Hans Zeig came to us. He started in 1983 with protecting data. He's one of the very old school data privacy activists. And he came to me and put this on my desk, this. He had the OECD papers, which everyone was looking for. And I said, wow, where did you get these, Hans? These are confidential papers. No one will get them. The only person who had them wasn't allowed to give them away. And Zeig said, well, I took it from the Chancellor's office in Austria. And I said, what? Why? Well, I just went there to Dr. So-and-So, who has something to do with data protection. And he had this lying there. And at the end of the talk, he said, by the way, Doctor, could you perhaps have a look at this? We don't really know what to do with this. We don't have the knowledge. And that's how the papers came to me. He had a Mac and he knew OCR. And these 120 pages were OCRed. And I proofread the OCR, because it was very buggy at the time. So I wrote and learned the papers, because I received it twice. And there were a lot of diplomatic rows as a consequence. At the second instance, we published this online and said this is a small service for the delegates so that they can access the document whenever they want in elektronik Form. And we actually wrote amendments, too. So that's my introduction into the world of Cryptography. Back to Detlef. In 1997, we had a minister, whose name was Kantor, Manfred Kantor. And he gave a speech in Bonn on the Federal Information Security Office's conference. And what did he say? He said, if in several years the Internet will not be encrypting normal data traffic, but even regular phone calls, then we need regulation to prevent law enforcement's abilities und for wiretapping from being impossible. So this would essentially render the state powerless. So what else did he say? It's very simple. This can be done by giving, by handing the encryption keys to a state organization und using personal, organizational and legal measures to prevent any ability for abuse. This is not about wiretapping. We have to have surveillance measures, is what he said. And the honest citizen will deliver their encryption keys. He didn't stay in office for long. The very next year he was replaced by a person from the free Democratic Party and that was Günther Rechtsrot, a person very sympathetic to private companies. He said, we need strong crypto. Another thing that I forgot, Kai Rohrbacher after this speech set up a mailing list where everybody met and emailed back and forth the papers they had among the Canter Speech. And the mailing list was a certain shift in mentality and zeitgeist because people didn't know what the mailing list was. This mailing list was used to spread these things and there was jubilation when Canter said this. The American organization should have access at any time. This is also true for foreign entities. This is unacceptable. The technical measures to protect yourselves with a strong cryptographic method that are freely available in Germany. Boom! We have defined crypto as a legal measure both for private economy and individual citizens. In 1999, the federal government lined out the cornerstones of the German crypto policy. They're very hard to find on the Internet these days. At least the Ministry for the Economy doesn't have them. Kai Ravn's homepage, which is ancient, still has them. It's got the last revision of these cornerstones and he froze them and it will stay there. The reason I mentioned this is that at the previous camp, Netzpolitik.org sent a question to the government and asked them what about crypto. And the answer was in 2015 that the cornerstones of German crypto policy from 1999 still apply and strong crypto is legal. Ja, das war's. This was it. That was the Vassener arrangement. There's a picture of it. And let's start like this. Free the Vassener office, which is the office where crypto was held hostage. It was the office that defined export restrictions. And a successor to the sanctions on Russia when you were no longer allowed to export computers to Russia. And it contained the munitions list, so material that can be weaponized and that included cryptography. And of course, we were aggast of this. Und ... I saw that this office is in Vienna. It's behind the Hotel Bristol, which is a very fancy hotel next to the state opera. The Vassener office is at the backside of this. My brother was very much into secret services. He knew about this. And he told me this was where the British secret service had their offices after the war. And I thought, hmm, I should be able to have access to this. And the Canadians and Mike Rottenberg knew two people from ... well, bureaucrats who had passed this arrangement. And I gave them a call and said I'm a reporter. And I noticed that in 1996 there was one message or one notification that this office was being opened. And that was it. Nobody knew of it here. And I asked the others, do you know anybody who works there? Yes, there's one who works for the telecoms industry. He's from Canada. He's not a spook. So it was a meeting point for military secret services. But he's not a spook. And I gave them a call. Telepolis habe ich. Ich ... I was when I was still writing for PBs and not FoodreiPiPen. So I said, I'm a reporter. I would like to visit you. We'd like to have a look. People can't really ... Paint a picture of this, and There are rumors going about. So we could use it as an opportunity to correct them. So they said, yes, come along. ... And so we had a look. Und es ist wahr. Sie leben im Bristel Hotel und da gibt es einen Weg in das Bild. Sie benutzen das door nicht wirklich. Sie haben auch ein Garage mit der eigenen Sicherung. Und Sie können nur auf die Stärken mit einem verdammten Lüft holen. Und ich zeige euch, was es so aussieht. Das war die Office, in der die Kryptografie geholfen wurde. Das ist die Entrückstür. Maler Straße 14. Auf der rechten Seite ist der Staat-Opera. Und das ist der Doorbell. Und unten ist der Afghan Consulate. Und das Wassener Office ist nicht hier. Denn es ist Top 7 und Top 8. Und sogar heute. Das war, es war das same in 1998. Also ich ging in, ging raus, wrote ein Artikel auf Wassener. Und ich hatte einen Vortrag zum Thema. Ich hatte eine Spiege auf diesem Thema anyway, in Frankfurt, an der Heinrich-Böhl-Foundation. Und das ist, wo ich dich mitgelehrt habe. Und wir spielten Jahre, bis um 3 Uhr im Morgen, wir reden über shortwave. Und ich habe gesagt, Ham Radio-Operatoren sind unsere Rasseln. Und er hat gesagt, nein, nicht alle. Und ich habe ihm gesagt, dass ich nicht den Examen machen konnte, weil ich Dinge illegal interceptiert habe. Sie haben mich nicht erlaubt, den Examen zu nehmen. Und das nächste Morgen, ich fliege nach Hause, ich hatte, ich hatte eine Sohre, ich war auf der anderen Seite der Pläne, und in der letzten Minute, diese Businesswoman, war mitgekommen und saß neben mir. Und ich war wundern, was sie in der Smoker-Seite hatte. Und sie hat mir gesagt, wie sie neben den Gallen sitzen musste, weil sie eine Medizin hatte, die geholfen wurde, und sie hätte gerne eine Zigarette. Ich dachte, was will die? Und ich war wundern, was sie für mich wollte, und ich habe sie eine Zigarette gegeben. Und ich saß, dass sie nicht eine Smoker hatte. Es dauerte nicht lange, bis wir gesprochen haben. Dann habe ich sie gefragt, warum sie nach Wien fliegt. Sie fährt zu einer Sitzung, die sie zu leiten hat. Sie hat eine Session in der Wassenar-Office. Wisst ihr, was ich gemacht habe? Ich war natürlich schon etwas, das ist ein gutes Rezept, das sage ich euch. Während der Kommunikation, habe ich eine unglaublich brutale Geschichte von meiner privaten Welt, in der ich mich fahre. Und sie war erschreckt. Das war es, weil ich es instinktiv gemacht habe. Und das war es, die Frau hatte es nicht immer verlassen. Das war das, was die Frau alles hat gesagt, die die Frau für mich nicht REPORTED zu haben. Ich habe keine Haltung zu haben, weil alle, die meine Repoordersen nicht veröffentlicht haben, minoriert haben. Wenn ich dann sage, dass ich in der Wassenar-Office war, Ich hatte die zwei Leute, die da waren, eine von den deutschen Secret Service, die nicht sehr gut war, die andere war eine fremde Kanadien, und ich fragte sie, sie wissen Luisa Maria Colon aus Puerto Rico? Ich sah sie so und sie sagten, ja, wir wissen Luisa, wer von der Stadtdepartement ist, oder nicht? Und ich sagte, es ist, sie saßt neben mir auf dem Plen, und beginnt zu reden mit mir. Und die Kanadien fragten mich, ob ich über die Direktität der Artikel war, und sie schmielten sehr gut, um zu leben. In 1999 war es die Konferenz des Global Internet Projekts, die ich nicht online finden konnte, aber das ist die Folder für die Konferenz, und das war die Main Sponsor. Alle die großen Kufthauser, die dort waren, sie sahen das Extrakt aus der Partizistinliste, und die Person, die sie immer mitgekommen waren, war da, wer das war. Und sie sprach über Dinge wie Key Escrow, das war eine private Konferenz in London, da war eine Fotografie, Prohibition, ich versuchte das ohne Flasche, weil die OECD-Guideleins, plötzlich, Erich, had published them of course, all participants had them, and were given these guidelines now, and they were supposed to be discussed. And the statement, everyone had a statement, Ulrich Sandel from the Economic Ministry for Germany, he supported the Rex Road position, we will not make Key Escrow the economy needs strong crypto. The OECD person that had compiled these papers was then giving the presentation, and a speaker of the British Communication Ministry tried to explain Key Escrow as a technology that was friendly towards civil society that could be rolled out. And from that conference, I was not allowed to take photos, but I was allowed to write about it. So as a journalist, we were supposed to make the Key Escrow a procedure known and favoured with the public. And now I will move, take a very different step and hand back to Erich, you have another slide on this. Yes, now this is a small story, how in 2001 in the European Telecommunications Standards Institute I became a persona non grata. I had published the OECD papers at Telepolis and others, the Inho Paul papers, and this was just requirements to the cops, by the cops to what telecoms, how they were supposed to set things up so that eavesdropping would be possible and recording. And now this landed in the European Telecommunications Standards Institute and that was handed over to the security working group. They didn't even call it lawful interception at the time. So I saw there that all the people in there allegedly were part of industry, but in fact they had, they put forward secret service positions much against the interests of industry and the head, Robin Gape, was most conspicuous there. So I thought that's impossible, he can't be from telecom and then calls for this and that to be surveilled. These will undercover people and no one admitted where they came from. They were all economic ministries, regulators or things like that, all from private companies. But the whole group was set up in this way. Many people were in there and all of them were not what they pretended to be. So I simply published all their names, that was a four-part publication at CT, the Etsy dossiers. I put all the names in there without mercy and I had a very good source because a certain telecoms company had no interest in the Etsy Interfaces because they had different ones and didn't want to change their network. So there was a kind of support and I always published it as soon as I got it and then these people got enraged. Also, I provoked this, I took their names and said, come on, people, does anyone know these people? I would soon like to publish non-public documents and if anyone can give me any information, we'll be given insight. So someone from the BBC wrote to me and said, I was in university with them, they were always close to the state and this and that and that guy. I knew, so I gave him those documents. Conference scrambling for safety in London 2000. First speaker, Ross Anderson and second me, Ross about crypto and me about bill. And as soon as I came in, that British journalist said, careful, your friends are here. They were up in the gallery, all of them and were not positive and everyone saw that they were together and I received the next stash of papers, the next batch and I noticed that there was a four-page dossier about me in them. That was funny and of course it said, this document is not to be made publicly available so I immediately took it and put it up there and that's where they were trapped in the Streisand trap because they had all their names all spelled out, all the ones that I had been so mean to publish. So I took those documents and republished it on crypto again and suddenly they had announced their own names Sie haben ihre eigenen Names erlangen. Und dann kam die Akkursation, dass ich die Harassmitte verwandt habe. Komm schon, es gibt Spooks in der Arbeit unter falschen ID. Und ich habe die Names geschaut. Und ich bin derjenige, den ich scharfe. Komm schon, ich scharfe niemanden. Das war einfach verrückt. Und dann kamen sie drauf, dass sie die Idee haben, dass es nicht alle non-published Dokumente waren, weil diese alle, dass alle diese internen Dokumente auf Kryptom verwendet wurden, die sie nicht gesehen haben. Das erneut sie sogar mehr. Und sie wollten dann, ein Copyright zu benutzen, um mich zu bekommen. Und dann haben diese Idioten plötzlich gemerkt, dass ein Standard-Adhesion-Institut auf open Standards funktioniert. Und das Open Standards, dass jeder, der Copyright-Interests weg hat, mit diesen open Standards zu arbeiten. Ich hatte einen Interesse in diese. Und ohne sie kann die Nette nicht gewachsen. So haben sie sich gemerkt, dass das Copyrights-Gesicht nicht wirklich arbeiten konnte. Und von dann an, dass alles irgendwie vorbei war. Sie wollten mich nicht mehr haben. Sie wollten mich nicht mehr haben, oder ich habe es ganz verstanden. Und für das Erlebnis, ich habe ihnen das 5G-Servaleins-Talk gesetzt. Denn einige dieser Menschen sind noch noch da. Und ich sage, dass es ein kleiner Service ist, für diese Menschen selbst, sodass sie sehen, was sie da nicht machen. Und ich sage nicht, dass wir etwas erzählen. To sum up, we thought we'd take a leap back into the past, where we were confronted with this technology for the first time. When I was finishing my studies, I was transferred to an institute in Banjolais near Paris, where we published this publication and the two chairman of this institute, whom you can see on this cover, as the editor. And Amon is a fascinating guy. I had a lot of fun with him, and he's Belgian. And he was minister for culture under Allende in Chile. And the entire diaspora of the Chilean left gathered around him regularly. And I was among them. And met a guy, whose name is Guy Bonzipo, but he turned out to be a German designer from Tübingen in southwest Germany. And together with Guy, I talked about cybernetics, because that was his passion. He designed this room as a central, Chilean operating center of the Chilean economy. And this was where they would determine the production numbers for the Chilean economy. And this would be distributed throughout the country through a computer network. He developed all this. And this is what the individual screens looked like. I mean, this is a mock-up, but Bonzipo tried to develop a system for a cybernetic planned economy. And it's fascinating what I was allowed to learn back in the days. That was my introduction. That was in 82 or 83. And that's where I got my first computer as well. Thank you, Detlef. In 2000, I got a visit from Niki Hager from New Zealand. Do you know who he is? He got started on the echelon scan standard in 96 by re-engineering the entire network, starting from the Waiopai echelon station. And he searched for the communication satellites along the equator and said there has to be one on the Ascension Island and another on Madeira. Otherwise you couldn't get them. That's what started the investigation in the European Parliament in 2000. And he came up to me. Because his name is not Niki Hager, his name is Niki Hager, and his dad was Viennese until 38. And the sun came back and I knew him from the mailing lists and said, come to me, you can stay at my place. I have a huge house in the countryside. He came with his daughter. We talked about God in the world. And he gave me documents. I gave him documents. He told me things I didn't know. And then we started talking about short wave, the same as wave Vow back in the day. And I said, no, he said, I intercepted all these telecoms. And I got replies from all of them because the engineers had the same hobbies and nobody knew that I was only 16. They thought I was a telecoms engineer, the same as them. So I got, for example, this from the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia where they wrote what kind of antennae they had and why they were transmitting or the US Coast Guard sent me a really nice letter or this. He asked, do you have anything from New Zealand? I said, yes, one. That was the last thing I got because I moved to a different place where antennae were no longer an option. And this was a hand-type letter from the communications engineer of the Naval Station Radio Erirangi. He started laughing. He wished me good Dx. He was from the same trade as we and he thought I was a telecoms engineer even though I was still at school. And Niki Hager burst at laughing and said, this isn't possible. Radio Erirangi, that's the sister station of the Waihopai Etcheland Station and it sent Chivas down to me Thank you. Is it okay? Is it all right? Vielen, vielen Dank. Thanks so much, Erich Andetlev. Wir stehen zur Verfügung. We are available for your questions. Hallfaber. Hallfaber. Hallfaber.