 Hello, my name is PJ Luckin, and I serve as the Director of Student Diversity and Multicultural Affairs here at Fairfield University. I would like to welcome you to the Diversity in Action podcast. At Fairfield University, we embrace, support, and celebrate the unique characteristics of diverse identities and cultures. Fairfield University is committed to diversity in action. In honor of Black History Month, today our topic is Unsung Heroes. Joining us is an expert in Black freedom struggle and urban history. Associate Professor of History and Black Studies, Dr. Shannon King. Welcome, Shannon. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Awesome, awesome. Well, Shannon, let's get right into it, man. Can you share a little bit about yourself, your hometown, you know, and maybe something that most people wouldn't know about you? Oh my goodness. So, I'm a New Yorker, and I was raised in Harlem, New York, and I am, what can I say? So, raised in Harlem, and in Bronx as well. My first love is basketball. Really? Yes. So, are you a Nick's fan? Just say it, just say it. I'm not a Nick's fan, but I grew up loving the Nick's. But, you know, I was always a Michael Jordan fan. Awesome, awesome. You know, even when he was at college. So, I guess one of the things that most folks probably don't know about me is that I was actually an artist, and I went to the Fame School in New York City. I was an art major, and, you know, many, many years ago, I wanted to both write comic books and be the illustrator. And so, yeah, so, yeah, so, you know, you know, at the time, you know, you had a little bit of super friends and those kinds of things, nothing like it is now, right? You know, make a billion-dollar industry in comic books and television and movies. You know, at the time it was just the comic books, and so that was my, you know, one of my first loves. So, yeah, comic books, basketball, and kung fu movies. So, I'll stop there. Okay, okay, okay. I watch some kung fu movies every now and then also. Also, well, you know, Shannon, can you share with us, you know, any unsung hero whose journey has really affected or influenced your life and the work that you do today? So, I think I want to talk about two people. The first is Ida B. Wells, and the second is Ella Baker. And so, Ida B. Wells was born in Holy Springs, Mississippi, but she's better known for her work in Tennessee. And so, Ida B. Wells was a journalist. She was a freedom fighter, and she's one of the first individuals who began to really put anti-lynching campaigns on the map, both nationally and internationally. And so, I think it's important to sort of think about, you know, one, obviously she's a black woman, but two, if we were to center her history, then we might have a deeper appreciation and an understanding of the relationship between the more recent movement for black lives, and this very long history of black efforts to reduce anti-black violence. And so, there's a clear line between the work of Ida B. Wells and, you know, what's going on or what has been going on in terms of movement, mobilization over the last, let's say since 2012 with Trayvon Martin and then more recently on this summer with George Floyd and Breonna Taylor, for example. And so, you know, it's important to sort of think about not only that, you know, she's a black woman and we can identify this long history, but also that she was connected to, you know, various movements that included other folks. So, we could certainly identify her as a southerner, we can identify her as a journalist, we can identify particular issues that are important for us to sort of understand this long struggle, but we can also sort of identify her as connected to the founding of the National Association for the Dance and the Color People in 1909. We can also identify her as an individual who was also a black feminist. So, a lot of the different issues that seem relevant today, we can use her, for example, and others, but we could use her and go back, you know, more than 100 years. And so, I think it's sort of really important for people to think about this much longer history that sometimes we might limit to the 1960s and MLK or Martin Luther King was really really important, but we could sort of go much further back and we can also identify black people, black women who have been central and continue to be central to these movements. So, that's one individual that, you know, I think it's important for us to learn a little bit about. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Ida B. Wells, man. I knew she was one of the co-founders of the NAACP, but I didn't realize she was so connected to the anti-lynch movement. Yeah. That's amazing. So, let me actually, I have a quote for you that, you know, I wanted to read and sort of riff on it a little bit in some connections. And so, she wrote a pamphlet and was published in 1892, and it's called Southern Horrors and Other Writings. And so, she writes, quote, a Winchester rifle should have a place of honor in every black home. It should be used for the protection which the law refuses to give when the white man who is always the aggressor knows he runs as great a risk of biting the dust every time his Afro-American friend does, he will have greater respect for Afro-American life. So, that's an interesting quote for several reasons. And one of which is because we tend to think about non-violence and self-defense or using the gun as really opposite kinds of civil rights struggle. And generally, it's Malcolm X as the sort of self-defense guy, and then there's the Martin Luther King as a non-violence person. And so, I think, again, if we move further back when we think about this question of lynchings, several things emerge out of this quote. One is that she's talking about self-defense. And in centering self-defense, she's actually talking about the preservation of black people. She's literally saying black lives matter. The other point that she's really making is that oftentimes, especially in the cases of lynchings, that African-Americans did not receive the protection of the police. And so, part of the reason why it's important to sort of talk about self-defense is the absence of protection of black people. And so, that becomes an important sort of way to think about these questions with policing and white mobs in the life during a lynching era. And then finally, I think it's really important, it's because she's also arguing that I will protect myself. My goal isn't to harm you, but if you harm me, I will return with the same kind of violence that you direct at me. And so, I think that's also important because it thinks about how do we talk about not only self-defense in terms of how black people used it as a particular strategy, but it also forces us to engage in white violence, right? I mean, it centers white violence in the way that we often forget when we have these binary Martin Luther King or Malcolm X. We forget that white folks, either through the police or white mobs, are also engaging in the violence. So, she's really important as an individual, as a black woman, as an activist, as a journalist, who put these issues on the table. And I think that if we were to sort of reread Southern horrors, it would help us sort of think about how these aren't issues that came about during the Obama administration and Trump administration, but these are actually issues that go much deeper and farther in American history. You know, Shannon, that's very interesting that you say that when you mentioned not being protected back in her time, I mean, I went to thinking, I mean, a police officer during that time could have been part of the KKK, you know, more likely than not, right? But as I think about it, I think about the generations that came after, and it seemed like generations were still socialized to have a bias against people of color. Right. And I'm just wondering, what are your thoughts on, you know, even, I would say, I guess, the progression of our society and how we've broken that bias, or has it been less, do you think that we've actually made a strong stand? I know I'm going a little bit off topic to unsung heroes, but perfectly fine. I mean, no, I mean, I think these are all important questions because, you know, part of her part of what Southern Horrors does as a pamphlet, you know, is what, you know, folks like you and others are doing, right? You're trying to use your voice and your platform to create a situation in which there's more understanding. And certainly I pulled this quote out, but it's only one quote out of a longer pamphlet, right? Which really talked more broadly about the ways in which violence was framed in ways that blame black people for the violence that they received, right? And so I think to get to your question, I do think that there are, you know, always improvements. And I think it's also important to lay out that even at that time, there were various voices, right? The white community has never been homogenous in so far as one could never say that all white people had a particular viewpoint. At the same time, you can say the same thing for African-American, right? And so part of identifying her is to identify that you have this particular voice who had a particular analysis about questions of gender and politics and voting and in particular the questions around violence in terms of lynchings. And so yeah, I would say that there's been some progression, but I also think that, you know, these things are really complicated and that these ideas and values go back to, you know, the 17th century. And, you know, you know, if we think about the 1619 project, I mean, that's a very, very long time, right? So those ideas about black people being inferior or black people not deserving to be first-class citizens or questions around civil rights, etc., are sort of hard to iron out and, you know, time doesn't always heal often because some white folks continue to have those views and they also create conditions for those views to flourish in ways that can convince these next generations that those views are legitimate, right? And so you have this push and pull of forces that are anti-black and then forces that are, you know, about, you know, the humanity embracing the humanity of black people. And those forces are not just black folks, they're white folks, they're Asian folks and Latinx folks, etc., right? So there's always been a diversity of people who advocate for the human rights of black folks. But at the same time, it's important to understand that, you know, these ideas don't sort of evaporate from nowhere. There are people who are engaging in activities, support policies, etc., that sort of reinforce ideas about inequality and black subjugation. You know, you brought up some things that I think about often. You talked about black folks feeling inferior at times. And actually, I happened to skim through your book, you know, Who's Harlem Is It Anyway? And there were some folks that I read about in your book that I have never heard of. Specifically, Phillip Payton and John Neil, John Neil, excuse me, and Harry Parker. Some black entrepreneurs that I've never heard of in my entire life. Right. And I, after reading through your book, I was inspired to do some more research. But it seems like they actually were around around the same time as Ida B. Wells, if I'm correct. Is that the same time period? Uh-huh. But I'm just wondering, can you expound upon, and again, I know you have someone else that I definitely want to hear about. Right. But, you know, maybe some of those folks, some of those entrepreneurs that many of us have never heard of. Right. I mean, and these guys, from what I understand, owned hundreds of real estate properties. Sure. In New York area, and people have never heard this. Right. Well, yeah, I mean, I think, I think there is a long history of black business students and black entrepreneurialism. And I think it's hard to to hear about them as individuals, unless you are from New York City, or you're interested in New York history. Right. And these kind of individuals, you will find in every city. Right. So whether it's Chicago, whether it's Durham, North Carolina, for example. Right. You know, you will always find black entrepreneurs. And so really, you know, those individuals were often the people who were migrants. In some cases, let's say in a place like a Durham, they may have come from rural parts of North Carolina to the city. If they're moving to New York City, for example, they're all coming from the south. Some of them came from the Caribbean, the British and Caribbean, for example. Some of them were Puerto Ricans. Right. Coming from Puerto Rico. So there's always been a really robust migration of black people who were entrepreneurs. And who really battled in the case of NIL and others, sort of battled with white realtors to provide affordable homes for African Americans. Right. And so, you know, those are interesting stories. The way I write about it in the book identifies this idea around notions of community. Right. And in one of the foundational ways to do that is to create buildings. Right. And create institutions. And so usually when the houses came, the apartments and the buildings came, then the churches came. Right. And then with the churches come, other institutions are built, whether they're stores, whether they're theaters and the like. Right. Initially, you need the homes and eventually sort of branch out and sort of get these and get these sort of communities that become important within the context of, you know, white realtors trying to reduce, right, African Americans' ability to move in. And so that was always a struggle. And the other part was that a lot of these realtors had initially worked for, you know, work with white business owners or white property owners who were, you know, invested in in some ways in getting some of the white tenants out because it was more expensive to, you could easily charge black folks higher rents. And so there's that part. You know, I don't I don't tend to identify those folks because I think they're readily available. Right. In terms of, you know, black entrepreneurs and the like. And I think those stories are important. But I think that those stories sort of paint a picture that might leave out black women, for example, right? Awesome. Awesome. Understand. It's important to sort of center not only black women, but also center black women who we could easily connect with the present. Right. Because I do think that we tend to act as if black women have only recently become important. And so I think for some younger generations, it's important for them to learn that actually, I mean, we can sort of talk about Michelle Obama and others now. But black women have, you know, been magnificent and beautiful and important for generations. And they have been at the center of, you know, our social movements from the very beginning. You know, Shannon, you're so right. I know I mentioned to many folks that I've worked with in the past, I talk about Rosa Parks sometimes. Right. And so many times people just think about Rosa Parks was the woman that sat on the bus. Right. And that's all she did. What made it so significant. And you kind of hinted toward when you mentioned community, she was a pillar in her community. When it came to service and what she was doing because before her, there were other black women that sat on the bus and got arrested. Right. But Rosa, in particularly, I mean, again, it was much more than her just saying, no, I'm not going to get off the bus right now or move to another seat. Right. It was because of her character and who she was and how invested she was within their community and the work that she was already doing for the movement. Correct. Yeah. So I mean, you know, the story about Rosa Parks is important. And it also provides a nice headway to talk about Ella Baker. I mean, so people forget or don't realize that Rosa Parks was actually the secretary of the Montgomery NAACP. Right. So she was well aware of and prepared for and had engaged for decades in different kinds of civil rights struggles. And so I often joke with my students because we tend to describe her as this elderly woman who was actually, I think, in her late 30s. Now, I'm in my late 40s. And so I remind my students that I'm actually older than Rosa Parks was. So let me sort of segue and talk a little bit about Ella Baker. So Ella Baker is important too because she is certainly connected to Ida B. Wells in some interesting ways, but for different reasons. And so if we think about Ida B. Wells, the sort of anti-lynching leader in the 19th and early 20th century, we could sort of identify Ella Baker as this individual who in many ways from the 20s to the 1920s to the 1980s was this important civil rights leader who one might identify as a bridge leader. When I use the language of bridge leader, I mean an individual who participated in various movements and who carried their ideas, their activism, their social networks from one social movement to the next. Right. And so for example, if we think about Ella Baker from Virginia, North Carolina, who eventually moves to Harlem in the early 20s, in the late 20s rather, and participates in all kinds of movements. And then she works for the NAACP, the National Association for Advancement of Color People. She works for the National Urban League. She works for the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. In fact, she was I think the executive secretary there with Martin Luther King. And so she's an important individual who had all this experience well before anyone was thinking about a Martin Luther King. And so she's this individual, and I wanted to read a quote from her and then I'll say a little bit more about her. She's an individual who centered the community and people in ways that has always touched me and helped me think about not only how I see the world and how I want to engage but also how I see my work. One of the concepts that I use in my book is community politics. And that becomes an important way to think about not only the individual, but the individual's relationship to the broader community. And so one quote she has, my basic sense of it, leadership has always been to get people to understand that in the long run they themselves are the only protection they have against violence or injustice. And so that's an important quote to me because that helps us think about how do we engage these questions of social justice or violence? Do we rely on politicians? Do we rely on leaders? It also forces us to say well, perhaps, but we also have to think about what role do we play? How are we responsible and accountable for these situations? Another quote is I have always thought what is needed is the development of people who are interested not in being leaders as much as in developing leadership in others. And so that becomes important because again, if the goal, if you have knowledge that you can share with other people, the question becomes why is that knowledge important to you? Is it important for you to sort of use it to say, hey, I have this knowledge and I want to market it and I want more people to listen to me? Or is it I have this knowledge and I want to share it and I want to spread it in ways that it can help other people do the things that they feel like they need to do? And so that's always been sort of my approach to things. And so she becomes important because she's the individual who helps shepherd this younger crop of civil rights activists who are part of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, better known as SNCC. And SNCC becomes really important because they're the ones, along with King, but in particular SNCC, they're the ones who are playing this huge role during the 60s in voter registration and in various forms of mobilization. And they're the ones who, unlike King, are working not only in the urban areas, but particularly the rural areas where it's much more violent. And so I think it's important to think about Ella Baker because she's this person who, whether it's the 20s, which is the period I read about or the 40s, 50s and 60s, she's able to carry all this knowledge for so much so that when we think about the Black Lives Matter movement now, a lot of their ideas about how to organize movements, how to think about and conceptualize them, come from an Ella Baker. They're tapping directly into the ideas of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, which try to create a democracy within their organization and not have a sort of hierarchical organization in ways that put mainly men in control. And so I think this is important, as an important link for folks to get a sense of, wow, we can sort of connect what's going on now as we watch the television and we see a lot of these Black women leaders. We can identify these two Black women, Ida B. Wells, Ella Baker, who are doing all these things. And we can sort of have a sense of people to tap into, not only the women in the present, but their relationship to the women in the past and that a lot of these younger activists and Black women and the politicians and others are standing on the shoulders of these two women. Awesome. Awesome, man. Well, Shannon, man, thank you for that, man. Can I audit your class? Of course. We know, Shannon, with that said, is there anyone you would encourage folks to research that would really enlighten them around this work? I know you just mentioned two extraordinary folks, but really, I mean, maybe someone more recent, is there any unsung leaders that you're following now that folks are looking to to become more aware and embody the work of diversity, equity, and inclusion? I mean, you know, one of the people who I'm watching closely is Keyanga Yamada-Taylor. Okay. She teaches at Princeton University, and she is a scholar activist, and she writes for The New Yorker. And she, and I can't remember the exact title of her book, but I think the book is called, she has several books, but one of them is called, I think from Black Power to Black, hashtag Black Power to Black Liberation. And so in the tradition of Ida B. Wells, she writes, she has, she's most well known for her work around the Black Lives Matter movement, not only as a scholar activist, but an individual who comes from a tradition of activism, in particular as a teenager and as a young adult. She was in, she participated in movements around equitable and fair housing, for example. And so a lot of her ideas and her politics come out of her own experiences as a young activist, you know, fighting for the rights of tenants and homeowners. And so I think it's important to, you know, especially for young folks who are interested in becoming academics, you know, you can live a life before you go get your PhD or whatever degree that you want. And that, you know, that's something I wish that I did, that I was more involved in more movement forms of activism than the more scholarly angle. Well, yeah, Keonga Yamada-Tales is one individual that folks can look up and follow her work. I mean, she writes regularly for the New Yorker, if you want, some of her more popular writings. And so she also has an academic book called Race for Profit, which is actually about housing. And it partly comes partly out of her own activism as a younger activist. And then the more popular hashtag Black Power to Black Liberation is the more popular work that most folks have likely read if they know anything about her. And I think she also has a book of interviews. I think it's, it might be how do we get free, but it's a book of interviews with the founders of the Kambahi River Collective, a Black woman, a feminist, oh my God, I should know the dates, but I can't, I can't recall. I think it's the late 60s or it might be the early 70s in the Kambahi River Collective. No, I can't even remember. But folks can look it up. And so, you know, the Kambahi River Collective was important because it was foundational. And in particular, they help us sort of think about what now some, what some people will call identity politics, although that's a whole other conversation could people miss. But anyway, so I'll stop there. I mean, so yeah, I didn't know you were going to ask me that, but yeah, I would say Keanavi Yamada Taylor is an important person to sort of check out. And whether, you know, whether it's her books, whether it's you can find her on YouTube, you can find a popular reading. But yeah, she's an important person, I think who's who has a clear analysis of what's going on in the world currently. Okay. And you know, just just to bring us back to the topic for today is unsung heroes of Black history. Can you define what a unsung hero means to you? And why you believe so many folks have been overlooked? That's a that's an interesting question. I mean, you know, it's to ask a historian that question is a complicated question. You know, the quick answer is the easy answer is, is that, you know, I think it's hard to identify all these important people. And I do think that identifying heroes has a lot to do with who has the power to pick them. And so I think that's, you know, identifying heroes and unsung heroes and alike is really about power dynamics, who has the authority and voice to do that. But also it has a lot to do with what your particular ideology, right? And how you see the world. And so for example, if we think about the folks that you identified, I mean, you know, I think Black entrepreneurialism is so important. Because it sort of changes that dynamic from Black people asking others to do for them to how Black people have done for themselves. And so that's important. And so at the same time, you know, that's also connected to, you know, Ida B. Wells and Ella Baker. In particular, Ella Baker, who believed in cooperatives, for example. And so instead of an entrepreneur, she was more interested in groups of people creating a cooperative and they're owning it together, right, which is sort of similar, but different from the individual entrepreneur who owns the building and trying to make money. She was more interested in, let's say, 12 of us putting in our money, we own it together. And we can provide more for the community, for example. So I mean, you know, again, that that's probably not a good answer. But you know, but yeah, you know, unsung heroes, I would define individuals who I think are important to how we envision society and people who have attempted to bring about that vision for us. And so certainly for me, Ella Baker and Ida B. Wells were interested in the society where Black people are safe and we're treated equally. And so yeah, I'll stop there. You know, you mentioned cooperatives, correct? Yeah, for Ella Baker. Was she able to actually get some of those things going at all? I mean, I'm sure we can do more research. I'm just wondering. Yeah, I mean, in the late 20s and early 30s, she was involved. She and others and lots of Black folks. And in this case, this is Harlem, she was in Harlem, New York at the time. But yeah, they were able to do some of that work. Now they were also doing it in the midst of the Great Depression. And so it made sense to think about a more collective effort because poverty was so widespread. And the new deal, while it did uplift some people out of poverty, it didn't go as far as it needed to do. So yeah, I mean, she was able to do that. But no, the Great Depression was much stronger and greater than anything individuals could do. And so again, if we sort of think about our current situation, it's similar to Black and Brown businesses trying to stay open now within the context of sort of this incredible pandemic that has beat up the economy. So we need the federal government to intervene in ways to help all Americans and especially businesses. But yeah, I mean, there was some good efforts, but not in such a way where it could have a significant impact over the long haul. You know, I'm all about teamwork. Co-operative sound great. Seriously, I mean, to me, that really makes community. I feel like serving together and working together really brings folks closer. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's what co-ops are. I mean, that's essentially what a lot of people are involved in and engaged in. Hers was a little different in so far as that it wasn't just about providing homes, but it was also grocery stores like a much broader or social oriented effort that had more to do with a social justice approach rather than just providing housing. But housing is also part of it. Yeah. Awesome. Well, Dr. Shannon King, we'd like to end on something sweet. So we ask all of our guests, what's your favorite candy? Oh my goodness. You know, unfortunately, I can't think of a favorite candy because I can't have sugar. Yes. Oh, man. Yeah, man. Old age and health and, you know, I don't eat sugar anymore. We can go fruit then because it's about ending on something sweet. Oh my God. So where do I like? I don't even know. I mean, I'm a berries person, so sure berries. Okay. And usually it's not one. They're usually together. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. You know, and I put them in my smoothie. Awesome. I do something very simple. I buy the berry mix and make my smoothies with it. Awesome. That's the way to go. You know, you brought something great, too. You know, we got to make sure we're staying healthy out here. That's right. Less candy, more smoothies. Yes. More smoothies and, you know, throw something green in there and, you know, some protein mix, but anyway, you didn't ask for all that, sorry. Well, Dr. Shannon King, thank you so much for taking the time to join us. And for those of us joining us at home, thank you for watching. I'm PJ Lucky, and this is Diversity in Action.