 The really special guest today, which is Noah Geisel, and he's at Señor G on Twitter, and we're gonna talk about motivating our learners with digital badges. So first I wanna say hi, Noah. How are you? It's great to see you. Hey, Shelly, always awesome to hang with you anytime I get the chance. And I know, okay, so we have, you're gonna be hosting Bad Chat K to 12, but you found it in a little bit. And I wanted to catch up with you real quick because you're the one who first kind of inspired me about how we can motivate learners with digital badges. And I had always used them with teachers. And so I know, and also you taught me the difference between micro-credentials and digital badging. So for our learners, our listeners, who are new to this term micro-credential and even digital badging, can you kind of explain, you know, how both go hand in hand and difference? Absolutely. And going back to the Bad Chat K12 hashtag at, you know, give credit where it's due, Shelly was also a co-founder of that along with Sarah Thomas at Sarah Da teacher at One Wheel Joe Joseph Dillon and at Senora Spanglish. Laura Sexton definitely took a village to launch that. And we're coming up here in just a few weeks on our three year anniversary. Can you believe it's been that long since we started doing that every Monday afternoon? And yeah, we've come a long way since sketching on the back of a napkin in a restaurant in San Antonio. And, you know, I think your question is really important because a lot of people do look at the badge word and it has this playful nature to it and history to it. And so it is a little confused between a digital badge and a digital badge credential. And, you know, I say to tell people it's a lot like squares and rectangles that all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares. And so, you know, micro credentials that are digital can be digital badges but not all digital badges are also functions credentials. And so a badge, you know, just like in gaming environments motivational environments are recognitions, right? It's a way to let somebody know, yes, you've done this and now you can communicate that to other people. When we start to get into digital badge credentials we really hone in more on that communication piece. And so, you know, one of the great things with digital badges is they're digital. You can attach evidence to them. And so all of a sudden, you know, we start to have this communication tool to tell mom and dad, to tell other next year's teachers as you matriculate up, to tell potential employers and colleges, not only have I demonstrated this skill but you don't have to take my teacher's word for it. Here's an artifact attached as evidence for why I received this credential. Oh, that's really interesting you say that. And what kind of artifacts could they have attached to this credential? And what does this, those who have never even seen one, what does it look like this credential like on a digital platform? Like where could they see these kind of credentials? Where can, you know, students keep these, you know, and also like, what do they look like? So many awesome questions there to unpack. And the first thing I'd say is that, you know, we is even though we're now, you know, coming up on five years into this space, we were probably still at the tip of the iceberg for where it's going. So anybody who, you know, is hearing as an educator diving into this space, sentences that start with you can or even worse, you can't or you should or you shouldn't or you have to, like maybe don't pay as much attention to those people, you know, that they were too early on to be speaking absolutisms. You know, give yourself permission to be wild, get crazy and try new things. You know, some best practices that are emerging is that, you know, depending on which platform you use to issue digital badges, you're going to be able to attach those evidence artifacts that we talked about. And so, you know, in most cases, that's going to be anything you can attach to an email, you can bake into a badge. And so anyone when you then go share that badge out, anyone's going to be able to click on that badge and see who issued it, who endorses it if there's any endorsers, as well as quick to actually see the evidence. And so that could be a Word document, a Google doc, a YouTube video, a PowerPoint, a Prezi, a testimonial from the teacher herself. Really, you know, without putting any fences around a teacher's creativity, it's kind of limited only by your own imagination. Okay, that's great. And what's the difference? I know a lot of teachers who may have seen, and I would say they're like, I've seen them describe this, insignias, I say they look somewhat like a Girl Scouts patch or something, but it's on a digital picture that looks that small. But are my dad's bowling patches, you know, things like that, digital badges range from a bunch of different styles. But when a student receives this, you know, symbol or insignia or token, I've heard them all called, two different terms, but what differentiates, why is it different than an award or sticker or something? Because that's a common question we get from a lot of teachers who are worried they're giving an award. Totally, and for those teachers who aren't worried about that, who are looking and thinking, oh yeah, I can give an award and it's digital, great. Go do that and be awesome. And hopefully your kids love it, right? And so, you know, I don't wanna say that we can't do that. What I would say is that, you know, especially when we're treating the digital badge as a digital badge credential, we're doing an award that's like an award on these amazing steroids, right? It's not just a participation trophy that everyone gets one. It's something where, you know, you are setting rigorous criteria and you are then, you know, saying to the world of who might be what we would call consumers or an audience of that badge. Hey, this student got credentialed in this skill because they met this really rigorous criteria and the evidence attached. You know that they did it and here's why. And so, you know, an example would be, you know, for when I wanted to be a babysitter or a lifeguard, you know, you had to go get a Red Cross first aid and CPR certification, right? And so, if the Red Cross chose to turn that into a, and that's a credential that I carried in my wall, I had this little cardboard business card, right? But if they want to turn that into a digital badge credential, the stuff that they might do for that is to say, here's your card and you have this digital version of it and on it, there's a video proving that you, yes, in fact can sustain 60 seconds of sustained chest compressions, right? And so, there's all of a sudden gets to be, you know, all these issues that like trust which are really big, right? That especially with so many people, you're fabricating credentials out there, you know, this gets into trust and legitimacy. And it also, I think there's a lot of equity things that come into play because when we get from elementary to middle and then into high school and beyond, we start to have what are called open badges. And that means that you can share them externally, you can put them on LinkedIn. Soon enough, you're gonna actually be able to put them onto the common app for colleges. And so, you know, as we get to that place where there's this real world audience for these badges, I think that, you know, people are gonna really start to realize, oh wow, yeah, this is way more than a ward. And we get to a place where real world employers before they, you know, even start looking at resumes, just have machines reading applications and saying, we're looking for skills X, Y and Z who has been credentialed in those skills? And I think there's huge implications there for access and equity, you know, when all of a sudden the first layer that people are getting through of HR is completely blind to last name, gender, race, right? And so, you know, the only bias that's coming is the positive bias of do you or do you not have skills that we value in this position? Well, I think it's just awesome. I remember, yeah, back in the day, before three, you know, it's been over three years. That's so amazing. You've done so much then, you know, like saying, hey, you know, can I pick your brain and show you something and buy it, you know, what I'm already working on with you already started with, you know, a team of teachers already, you had started with a bunch of people. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is awesome, you know, you're in vision and it's come to fruition and I'll be posting the links to that in the blog. And I could use a testimonial of that conversation and then this little screen capture of you talking about that, if we were gonna issue Shelley Terrell the 30 goals be someone else's champion badge, you know, I think you would have just earned it right there and we would have the evidence to prove it. I mean, that's what it started in my book, you know, like that each mission has to have a badge to go with it. It was like, there's the credential, you accomplish this mission but the other part in the book, which I thought was really important too and we talked about it a lot too was the fact that students also recognizing that like how important it is for someone else, you know, and part of even citizenship, like being a good person is recognizing things you value in others. So when in taking that step, not only the teacher goes and to, you know, give the badge, but when another student, for those teachers who do take on that mission and their students create, what are some things that, you know, what's the kind of conversation they should have with their student about, you know, what, you know, not that they, so it doesn't turn into, oh, I'm gonna do it to Sally because she's my best friend, that it ends up being like something that I actually do value within another peer. Yeah, I think that's a really powerful question. You know, I think the most right answer is probably in the heart of every teacher watching this who knows their student in their classroom best, you know, just kind of some guidelines that you might be able to offer on that is, you know, as we, you know, by the time this podcast comes out and is on the blog, you know, and the book is, you know, on the New York Times bestseller list and, you know, Shelly's on the today show in Good More America, you know, that all of a sudden, you know, teachers, you're involving your students not just in the, you know, senior guisels, period one ed tech mission badge, right? But you're a part of something bigger, right? And so doing badges at the classroom level, awesome, do it. That's amazing. Great way to start to build culture and motivate your students. And when you are tying into something that's part of a larger ecosystem, especially when you can hit your horse to, you know, a cart to the Shelly Terrell horse, you know, and say, hey, this is part, you know, this is a badge that's, you know, part of this bigger ecosystem that's recognized worldwide, right? This is a badge you're one day going to be able to show when you're applying for a job at Tesla or at Google, you know, because Elon Musk values badges that are endorsed by Shelly Terrell. And so, you know, I think that that's, you know, and it sounds, you know, kind of hyperbolic. At the same time, I really do think that's where this is going, because what we're talking about is not some, you know, K-12 flavor of the week fix that the real world did not ask for. You know, this is already happening on a very large scale in the real world. And education just happens to be playing catch up in real time at the same time that it's happening in the real world. So large companies, you know, with hundreds of thousands of employees, you know, and with billions of dollars of revenue, like Salesforce and IBM are doing this internally with their employees issuing, Salesforce has issued millions of badges now, IBM hundreds of thousands of badges and creating heat maps of their talent globally inside of IBM. So when they have a project, you know, they're not looking for the right person, they're typing in their system, the skill sets they need and finding those people. And so when we're starting that in our third, fifth, ninth grade classrooms and, you know, on these ed tech missions, getting them used to this culture of being credentialed for the awesome that you do, right? You're all of a sudden equipping your students to be ahead when they enter a real world situation that's already, you know, speaking this language of, you know, how do we recognize, notice name, recognizing credential skills that go beyond stuff that just frankly, our transcripts, our ACT scores, our GPA just don't do a job communicating. Right. And I'm so glad you mentioned all of that because I think that's so powerful to end this kind of on because you bring in the point that, you know, this isn't something we're just doing in K to 12. And that's what I really loved when you sat down with me is that you've always seen the bigger picture of like how this impacts students in their future and how, and I remember you telling me stories like, you know, the kid that, you know, maybe doesn't ever get the good grades or ever get recognized for anything. But they, you know, because maybe they just have behavior records or all these other insignias or things that are attached to them. But with the credential, like a micro credential or a badging, you know, they've shown some skills that isn't based on like, you know, these kinds of systems that, you know, kind of punish kids sometimes and trial them. But with badging, they have an opportunity to go beyond. They can get internships. They can, you know, show people the things that nobody ever gets to say, hey, you're really good at leadership or you're really, okay, maybe this is the most talkative kid, but he's really great at public speaking. Like just kids, just the main, you know. Yeah, and personal communication. Yeah, collaboration, interaction, awareness, leadership, research, troubleshooting. You know, every child is going to shine in different places and where they shine probably aligns with your state standards just in ways that aren't showing up right now in the ways that we currently communicate, you know, how students are awesome as learners and achievers. And with Digital Badge credentials, we really open up whole new possibilities to recognize our learners' assets and then open up doors of opportunities for them. Absolutely. So thank you so much for sharing your time with me. I know you're really busy, so. Thank you. It's a great way to talk to you. And I know I will see you somewhere again this year doing something amazing and great and passionate like you are. So thank you so much. Huge virtual hug to you. Virtual hug to you, Shelly. Anybody can reach out for anything bad at any time at SenorG on the Twitter, medium.com slash at SenorG, lots of blogs about badging and our weekly. It's a great blog. I love it. It's like the future, everything that everybody can do. Consider about the future and the skills that their students need. They're saying future ready. Yours is a future ready blog. I'm trying, man. I'm trying. And you know, our Twitter chat is really for folks who are deep in the weeds and world famous experts in the bad space as well as people who are joining the chat saying, hey everybody, what is a badge? You know, and we run again and it is of all the Twitter chats out there. You know, it is one of the most inviting, empathetic, supportive, you know, chat communities. And so if you're ever curious, hop on. Even if you just lurk, you get a badge for this chat. We value lurking. Thank you again. Thank you, Shelly. Have a good afternoon, everybody.