 Hello everyone and welcome to Inside Leather History, a fireside chat. I'm Doug O'Keefe, I am the host and the producer of the chats, which are a program of the Leather Archives and Museum. Today, I have the privilege of including two wonderful men from Russia. You are in Moscow. And how is the Russian winter? It's cold. I'm in really, really cold. Let me introduce both of these fine gentlemen here. I have Mr. Leather Russia, 2021, Marcus. Hello, Marcus. Hello. And I have Dom of Pigland. What an interesting name. You are a Leather Sir and an old guard protocol enthusiast. I welcome you both to the program. So, let's begin at the beginning. Tell me a little bit about where you're from in Russia and about growing up. Oh, well, I'm from a small suburban town outside of Moscow. During my childhood, my parents moved to Siberia for a couple of years to make some extra money. But I could not bear the climate and the brutally cold winter. So, I was sent back home to live with my grandparents. On the other hand, I'm a born and bred Moscowite. And I currently live within the Moscow metropolitan area. So, I guess you can call me a city boy. Okay. So, tell me a little bit about growing up in Moscow. What sorts of things did you do? Well, I mean, surely Moscow is a huge metropolis. It's the capital. So, as any capital city, it's very vibrant. It has lots of things to offer. I mean, for example, it's huge. It's one of those cities that never slips. Like, for example, New York City or maybe London. So, it's a really interesting place to grow up at. I would say because, I mean, it's a multinational city. There's lots of foreign tourists. And one does have a lot of opportunity to network and mingle with different people. So, I think this multiculturalness, basically, is something which I really appreciate in Moscow. I visited Moscow in 1994. So, I think Moscow must have changed a lot since then. Well, yes. I think if you come sometime soon, you would find that it has changed at least a little bit as compared to the Moscow you saw when you were last here. So, I heard Moscow is very expensive. It is. It's true. It's very, very true. I think at a certain point it used to be among the most expensive spots. Even on the globe, I think. But after some economic crisis and difference in currency exchange rate, Moscow has become slightly more accessible in this respect. So, tell me a little bit about coming out as gay in Russian society. Oh, I think I was gay since early childhood. However, I've only fully realized my sexuality when I was a university student. And there was no way back, everything. That's a good one. I think that I knew I was gay also from the very beginning. If I look back at my childhood memories, I remember my mom had all sorts of fashion magazines around the house and those had some man's fashion sections. They were usually right at the end of the magazine. I was really interested in grabbing a couple of those magazines and just staring at pictures and getting fascinated with all those male models. I was like around five of that point. And then I started watching sports on TV and my favorites were surprise, surprise, dive and swimmen. Basically, those sports where male athletes were minimum clothing. So, in terms of realizing that I was attracted to men, I think that came in pretty early, I think. And in terms of coming out, I think I was quite late in my case. I was around 25. And just to give you a brief idea of my family, we don't really talk about stuff in general. So, the only conversation I had with my mom was you don't really fancy girls. And I was just like, no. She went on like at all and I said, yes, correct. And that was it, literally. We never discussed this matter ever since. I don't even know whether she accepted my sexuality because we never dotted those eyes or crossed those teeth. But not in my family. That's the kingdom of understatement as I love to call it. And in terms of friends, like my straight friends, I've never told them into their fate like, hey, guys, I'm gay. I always let them figure that out themselves. And they are usually pretty good at guessing. And maybe that's just an educated guess. But all of them seem to be totally fine with that. So, what was here? My family. Well, like coming out as gay, yeah, Russia. Well, I came out as gay when I was at university. And it turned out it is a disaster. Oh, yeah. Yes, my family did not accept my sexual orientation. My mother even tried to fix it and talked me to a psychology therapist. After that, I had zero desire to come out to my friends. So everything started within the close family circle. After 20 years, my family never got to accept my sexuality and treat it with respect. I'm so sorry. I think Russian society, it's a little difficult, isn't it? To be openly gay? Well, yes. It's not exactly an easy thing to do here to be an openly gay person and an openly gay couple. There are lots of challenges in this particular aspect. Yeah, because it's really not a hugely acceptable society. Getting back to your earlier question about living in Moscow, I mean, in most of the countries, and seeing applies to Russia, the huge metropolises or the capital cities like Moscow and St. Petersburg, I mean, the society is kind of more indifferent. I think that's the word I'm looking for, indifferent. In other words, like members of the LGBT community and towards everyone, as opposed to small towns like in the middle of Russia, I think the same may apply to other countries like compared to the attitude in New York City and some places like some shit-well Oklahoma, if you excuse me. Yes, I think you're right. But tell me about exploring being gay when you were young. When you were in university or when you were in your younger days, how did you find a little bit of gay life? Oh, well, during my teens, my childhood teens were heavy metal band posters and rock music videos like scoprons or boss because so hot, man-wearing type later. Well, yeah, man-wearing type later is always like an eye-catching picture, regardless. Like in my case, I remember being so attracted and fascinated to top-looking men like film actors or band members, military, uniform guys like you name it. And the leather cloth figure of Arnold Schwarzenegger shines brightly in my childhood memories. Yeah, like Arnie made me gay. Well, certainly he made me realize I was hugely attracted to leather and the rest was just some of film's fault. But when you were a teenager, maybe, when you were very young, did you play with other boys? Oh, well, I'm not sure what the best way of addressing that. What do you mean by playing with other boys? Like playing in a sexual context? Yes, sexual. Sexual exploration. Well, there's always been admiration, but I don't think it went up to like a real play or whatever. Like my first, sort of my first boyfriend, we met at high school. So it was just like one year before entering the university. So I think that was the first, basically, relationship, well, I wouldn't call it a relationship now, but at that particular point it basically looked like a relationship, although it was like quite brief. Let's put it this way. And then, I mean, entering the university, it always opens up the world for you. And surely at that particular time there were some gay clubs around which I started visiting and so did Marcus. So yeah, I mean, the university is the whole new universe, as it is for every man, I think, everywhere in the world. And in our case, yeah, I think university was designed when we started actively exploring our sexuality. Tell me about the gay clubs you visited. Well, let's put it this way. There were no leather clubs. There were no like dungeon-style stuff, like nothing like Backstreet in London, for instance. There were regular gay clubs and regular gay parties. There would be on occasions like guys dressed at least in some leather and that were the guys I would go for, obviously. Yeah. Yeah, but I mean, it was mostly like a dancing thing and maybe hook-up thing and, well, a pop thing. So, yeah. I am curious about the clubs, though. We in the West, we don't know much about these topics. So when you were exploring in these clubs, tell us a little bit about them. They were dance clubs. They were social situations. Tell us a little more. Well, I'm not really sure what sort of stuff I can tell about the clubs because, well, most of them are gone by now. But at that time, I think it was mostly dancing atmosphere where there was a lot of dancing clubs. Surely with a bar where you could get a cocktail or some drink. I wasn't necessarily into dancing much. So I would rather hang around the bar and maybe watch the guys dancing and see who I am, my fancy. I mean, my club life was more of an explorer like being someone who actually watches other people having fun rather than actively doing dancing which I didn't fancy a lot at that time. So for me, it was more of a socializing than dancing, if that makes sense? Yeah. Now, you said that these clubs are gone now. What happened? Well, I think a couple of them might be still around because some of them would close and then reopen. Some of them would close and never reopen. I think there are different reasons for that. Probably most of them are of economic nature. However, as I've said earlier, the society is not necessarily a substance, especially in the last couple of decades which doesn't necessarily contribute to gay clubs growing in numbers. Yeah. That's quite sad, really. I mean, some people have a couple of nice venues which are still alive and kicking. So that's good. But yeah, that's surely not enough. I mean, there are some gay foreigners around. I mean, I'm not necessarily sure how many of those are there, but at least like three or four in Moscow and at least I know of one in St. Petersburg. So that's another, basically the places people could go, but gay foreigners are more for some sexual interaction and socialize it as they are everywhere again. When both of you were going to clubs when you were younger, were you able to explore sexuality going home with somebody from the club, for example? Well, yes. What would be the other reason to go there? I think the audience would like to know how the men of Russia react with this. Well, I mean, I'm not necessarily sure I understand exactly what you mean. Like, which particular aspect of a hookup in the club do you want me to elaborate on? Well, for example, when you are exploring gay sex for the first time, what sorts of experiences and what did you learn when you were initially exploring? Well, it's an interesting question really. I've never asked it myself what exactly I was exploring at that time. First of all, I think I was exploring myself and what stuff I would like, what sort of sexual practices I enjoy and which ones I do not like. At the early stage, I mean, you do not necessarily know yourself. Of course. You are completely in agreement with yourself or know what you are going for. It's more of an experiment at the early stage. I think that's pretty much everywhere. As it was for me and I'm sure it was for markers. You start playing with people. Basically, you have sex. You have different kinds of sex. You try different roles to figure out which ever works best for you. So I think for me it was more of an exploring thing. Yes. So, tell me a little bit about the first time you experienced a little bit of leather sex or kinky sex. Hmm, first time. Wow. Well, no, I was slightly older than 12. Well, I think that, first of all, let's put it this way. I've been a Leatherman for quite a long time by now. However, I only started getting into BDSM like maybe five years ago. I was a so-called happy girl after vanilla Leatherman. I enjoyed leather. I enjoyed wearing it. I enjoyed everything about leather. I enjoyed sex and leather. But the actual sex was like a normal gay sex about leather. I do remember that, mentioning that to people I would cook up with, it was two different reactions. A lot of people just didn't get it. Some people would tell me, oh well, if you like it this way, well, maybe okay. Some gay people would call me a pervert for that. But at the early stages I was mostly into a regular sex in leather. So I didn't explore the BDSM side of sex at the early stages. I mean, I think that only kicked in like five, six or seven years ago. Like after I was 30. So I had a much clearer picture of what I wanted to explore at that age. But as I've said, there wasn't much Leatherman around. And people with whom I dated, they were basically not into leather. And they would, as I've said, just let me do my stuff without much reciprocity in this particular fetish. I see. It just makes sense. And that wasn't necessarily what I wanted to, but that was what I could get at best. But Marcus, how about for you? What age did you first do leather or kinky activity or sex? Well, I think at this particular... Why? I probably would have to translate him back to you. Maybe because it would be easier for him to explain this in Russian. If that's the point with you. I mean, I don't know how it's going to work out. No, don't worry. Don't worry. Okay. No, it's fine. What age did you, let's say, start to exercise your skin and sex? What age did you start to exercise? Well, 30. 30? 30 years old? He was around 30. Pretty much the same old myself. When he started getting into leather sex and more intense BDSM sex. So I think, same as with me, the understanding of something that you wanted on a different scale gets to you when you grow older. Yeah. So, how are you able now to connect with other leathermen in Russia? Well, first of all, we go connected with each other. Sorry? How did you meet? Ah, well, that's an interesting story because we only met like three or four months, yeah. A little bit over three months ago. Recently? Yeah, pretty recently. At the Mr. Leather Russia contest. So we literally met on stage. We didn't know each other before. We have never hooked up on dating sites. We were never connected on any social media whatsoever. Wow. Haven't heard about each other, literally. I mean, like, at all. Wow. Yes. Wow. And that was about, in fact, when I saw him and when he saw me. We were the two finalists at the contest. Yeah. And so basically, he won the contest. He is the current Mr. Leather Russia. Yeah. I only made it to the first runner-up. Okay. But as I always say, I didn't get the title, but I really had to get something. So I got the title holder. Ha ha ha ha ha. Here's my prize. Here's my prize. Very good. So the contest was in St. Petersburg. Yeah. And after we got back to Moscow separately, we, like, in a couple of weeks, I think, I wrote to him saying if he was interested to catch up for a drink. So we had sort of a first date at a restaurant. And it just went quite fast from there. Let's put it this way. Good. Good. So that's the answer to your question. How one cooks up with other Leathermen in Russia? Well, you have to take part in a contest or a competition and take the guy you're on stage with. That would be my advice for anyone who wants to date a Leatherman. That is a fantastic story. I love it. I am very curious about the contest. Tell me more about it. How many people were competing? Well, so I had a couple of stages. First of all, you have to apply for the contest. I mean, it's announced through different social media, Facebook and Instagram and whatever official channel they've got. And you apply, you send some pics of yourself wearing Leather. You fill out the questionnaire where you basically fill out the form saying who you are, what sort of background you've got, what stuff do you like, how long have you been a Leatherman? I mean, like general information about yourself. Then the organizers basically do the cuts within the people who have applied for the competition, for the contest. And the final part, the main part of the contest is the live, basically, on the stage event. It was run in one of the St. Petersburg nightclubs. And another interesting aspect toward this particular contest is that it was actually on the day of the national semi-lockdown because of all the coronavirus restrictions, the lockdowns, as you know in every country, were on and off and on and off and on and off. And the contest itself was scheduled for a certain date. And then out of the blue came this sort of a lockdown thing. And it was too late to change the date. So it was either or either you're having it or you're not having it like this year at all. So the organizers decided to run the contest. And I was surprised how many people turned out. How many? Well, I think like in terms of the audience were like over 50 or 60 people. It's quite hard to tell because both he and I were so focused on what we were doing of the interviews on stage, on some other activities we had to perform on stage. So we had this, the tunnel vision of just whatever the organizers say, well, you do this and then you do this and then you've got this interview and stuff like that. So I can't really say I remember the whole thing. Only because he and I were so focused on stuff we had to do. But I do remember it was pretty crowded. How many people tried for the title? I don't know how many it was, but in terms of the final stage, I think there were three who basically were the people the organizers chose. One of them won the, what was it called? The award by the online voting. I don't necessarily remember the name of the award, like people's choice was something. So that person won the, yeah, I think it was called the people's choice award. And the rest were the two of us basically. So very important question for you, Marcus. Maybe you want to explain in Russian. Why do you think you won? That's a very interesting question. And for you, it's possible to say it in Russian. Why do you think you won? You never ask any questions. No, it's good. Why do you think so? Because I... He's so unique. He's the one and only. My break band. Because I really love to sing. I love to sing. Why do you know the name of the song? I know the name of the song. Oh, my new... My new...more...sexy. Thank you very much. He said...he doesn't really know, but he thinks he's sexier than I am. Oh, good. Thank you for this particular question. Thank you for starting the ball of a family quarrel. Thank you, darling. Thank you. Oh, good. So, you said maybe 50 or 60 people were at this contest. Did people come from everywhere in Russia? Well, there were people from Moscow. There were people from other parts of Russia. I remember talking to a guy from Siberia. Oh. There was another guy from the southern part of Russia. I was surprised in a really good sense of this word. I was really surprised that people came from other regions. Russia is huge. You look at it on the map. Traveling most of the time means flying. You have to take a plane to Moscow or St. Petersburg. St. Petersburg saved from even like towns or cities in the middle of Russia, let alone the far east and stuff. Of course. But, indeed, it was really interesting and I was really happy to learn that people came from other regions for this contest. That was really great. That's amazing, I think. It is very much so. I would be very curious about gay life and leather life in Siberia. Can you imagine it? Well, I'm not sure what sort of leather life there is in Siberia. I've never explored this particular aspect geoverty-wise. Let's put it this way. I do know that there are leathermen across the country. I mean, the opportunity to network with people from all around the world, Russia included. And I do have friends and connections online through social media who I know live literally in Siberia or the far east. There are leathermen for sure and they exist. I'm not so much sure about leather life as a community aspect exists. I would be quite hesitant even to imagine. But yes, surely there are leathermen in other parts of Russia, except for the two capital cities. Later, I would like to talk with you a little more about that later. So I am very curious about the work you can do in Russia as leathermen. For example, in Europe, in North America, as leathermen, we do a lot of charity work. We do a lot of community work. What are you able to do in Russia? Oh, okay. Mr. Liza, Russia, I want to partner with the 8th century in Moscow to run the HIV prevention. And now you start with public awareness campaigns. It's really important to end up with the stigma of HIV and educate the community about PrEP and the importance of regular taking. Is PrEP very common in Russia? PrEP, I mean, it exists. Surely it's available. I mean, it's definitely quite an expensive thing. I probably don't want to reference any particular brands here, but some are quite expensive, and the generic versions are much more affordable, as I think pretty much everywhere. But I wanted to add one thing. It's really important, this particular issue at this day and age, in terms of the growing HIV epidemic, which has been around Russia for the past several years. And I mean, needless to say that the existing ban on what they call a propaganda of non-traditional sexual relations amongst minors does block the information and support services to a great degree. And it pretty much undermines any public activity one could do whatsoever in this particular aspect. But both of us, Marcus and I, are determined to find some sort of a workaround and try to do some community work nonetheless those aspects. Great, great. Now, what the fetishes do you like? Well, my top three fetishes are leather, leather and leather. Only three? It's my fetish universe. I mean, leather is a part of my DNA. Well, in terms of other things, well, I would say smoking turns me on a lot. Like both cigars and cigarettes. I mean, I'm not saying it's necessarily healthy for you, but it is a fetish. And it goes really well together with leather in my opinion. Another big thing for me is tattoos and piercing. I'm not sure whether that would count as fetish, but bold and bearded guys make me super corny. I mean, if he takes off his murocap, he's bald. Okay. And bearded. So, yeah. Well, gear-wise, I think sunglasses is another gear thing, which I find really, really hot. I think that almost every man looks hotter wearing shades. And it also brings some mystery. And so, what about you? What are your main fetishes? Oh, I understand. Laser. I'm sure that is my number one fetish. But I also like rubber and lettuce gear too. Why not? One of my major gear fetish is laser and lettuce mask. And I love wearing it myself during play and also have the stuff wearing. It gives this feeling of anonymity that joins me on so much. As I can say earlier, I mostly discovered my fetish through form and the growth of the internet has been extremely instrumental. I think we will discover our fetishes through form. Probably. But how about things like fisting or flogging? Anything like that? Yeah, I mean, BDSL-wise, I think pretty much everything goes for us. I mean, we are both dons. So we basically, which means we always are looking for a sub to play with in terms of fashions and BDSM play. And yeah, we do enjoy all sorts of impact play. I think that's the new term for flogging and other activities. And other stuff too, like fisting is really great. It's hot. It's something both of us enjoy practicing. Walks in, can be really fun. I mean, all sorts of stuff. There are some practices we haven't gotten into much but we are really open to exploring new things for us. I mean, together it's much more fun to explore stuff. For example, what? Well, I haven't done any electric play ever. So I'm not necessarily sure how it works but I would really love to try. I mean, Marcus, he's a huge fan. I mean, you can't call it fan because you've never tried it but he would really love to try Qtnaphen. Yeah, well, a KO and Qtnaphen, I think. It could be quite fun. Basically, of course, the third party would have to agree to Qtnaphen, surely. Yeah, it might be a very interesting scenario to play out. Now, how do you, rather, are you successful finding subs in Moscow or other places in Russia? Oh, don't get me started on that one. Okay, there are issues. I think there are issues pretty much everywhere. Like, you know, when you start chatting to people, especially chatting to people online, oftentimes it goes like, oh yeah, I'm a zero limit sub. Yeah, everything goes. Sure, no limits whatsoever. You can do whatever you want. Yeah. And when it gets to actual meeting and discussing stuff of what we are going to do, the so-called negotiation process, it's like, okay, I don't want permanent marks. I don't want heavy vlogging. I don't want this. I don't want that. I can't stand on my knees too long because they hurt and so on and so forth. So like a huge, huge list of stuff that person doesn't want to do or haven't tried and has no interest in trying out. So sometimes the expectations do not necessarily meet the reality. And that, I think, is the most difficult part of finding a sub. And in our case, the sub really would have to like both of us. I think it makes it even more complicated because we only play together. We don't play separately. And I mean, yeah, we had some good and bad experiences so far. We had some expectations which were unfortunately ruined and now are finished and dead. But we keep on looking and ideally, we would really love to have a permanent sub because as you've noted when you were doing an introduction to this video, I'm a huge fan of All Guard protocol. It's not necessarily something which is well known here in Russia. So we do, I mean, both of us are fans of protocol, but we do need to educate people, we need to educate ourselves of what it is, what the sub is supposed to do, what they are not supposed to do. I mean, it's a huge, huge science, I would should probably call it this way. And also it's a huge investment, investment of your time, investment of your efforts. So I mean, you can get really disappointed when we start investing your time and effort and it just goes nowhere. Yeah, yeah. But we are still on the hunt, so to speak. So hopefully we will be able to find a third person to our relationship with whom we could really have this sort of like All Guard, all school, all traditional relations between two dons and the sub. How did you learn about the All Guard protocols? Well, I should probably mention that I mostly exercised my fetish life outside of Russia in the past. And so did Markus, he used to live in Switzerland for a while. So he was like a regular attendant of events on the continent, like Darklands, like Dublin's Pass, or Folsom, Europe, Easter, Berlin, Zurich, Brighton and so on. And well, mostly in Europe. On that hand, I was mostly focused on the UK because I was a frequent traveler to the UK, to London and Manchester, where I basically explored a lot of King, which is hugely available in the UK in terms of the parties, fetish rights, fetish clubs, backstreet and stuff. And I think that I first learned about protocol from Bruce Hunter, who does his master classes in London at the backstreet on protocol, on cigarette play. And he's like literally one of the most interesting people I've ever met in terms of talking about All Guard protocol. So I think I started from there and then I went on to find information online and reading books. So it just got really deep into me. So I'm a huge fan and so is Markus. I probably might mention that a lot about protocol he learned from me. Okay. Are you coming to Folsom in Berlin this year? We wish we could. Well, Folsom Berlin, which is in autumn, we'll see if it works out. Fortunately, the COVID situation doesn't necessarily make international travel easy at the moment. This also works in renewing our EU travel visas. So this is another aspect, which for instance prevents us from going to Dublin this year, which isn't made. They moved it this year. I think generally they used to have it in March or February. Yeah. I intended to go, but I cannot go in May. So I will return to Darklands next year. Oh, that's good to know because hopefully by next year the health situation with the COVID restrictions gets blown over. And I mean, he's been several times. I've never been. I really want to go to Darklands. It's wonderful. It's wonderful. And we want to go together with him now as a couple. So it would be really nice to meet you during that past. It would be just fascinating. Absolutely. But so I want to take another step over. Now, what for both of you? What is your opinion about mentoring in the community? Well, that one is a really interesting question because I think both of us really consider it a really important aspect for the community. So what's your take on mentoring? Mentoring. I think that's something I really believe in. I think mentoring is hugely important. Here in Russia, this particular aspect has been totally underdeveloped so far. So we really want to start doing programs and events like lecturing and workshops on the old guard masters, slave protocol, dominance and submission, BDSM, etc. Sharring hands on experience, learning from others and networking with the community is important. Yeah, I would agree to that because as I've said, I mean, community work is hugely important. And especially in Russia, as we've discussed earlier, the society is not necessarily accepting and there is not much opportunity for people to learn. So we've been discussing this issue with Marcus for a while by now. As he said, we do want to do some activities like master classes. We haven't yet come up with the cool sort of a lineup of the events, but we do want to do some kind of workshops and share our best practices, share our experience and invite other people who have experience in other stuff so that we can basically learn from each other because it's not only educating people who have a limited knowledge of stuff. It's also important for educating ourselves, like talking to other dogs or talking to subs and hearing their part of the story. For instance, when you asked me whether it's hard to find a sub, I also know that subs would probably say that it's really hard to find a dog. Absolutely. Because the same stuff kicks in. Online people might say, oh yes, I'm 100% dog, so I'm really heavy into being an SM. And in reality, when they need it, it turns out to be a first bottom. You would only slap the arse a couple of times and that would be it. Yeah, it goes both ways and it's really important to talk and it's really important to listen to the other, basically other sides. And of course, there are switches who basically can bring in a very unique experience when a person can be both a submissive and a dog. And gathering and talking about this together and sharing some panel on experience, explaining people about stuff. Saying that, yes, it's okay to be a fetish man, it's okay to be a leather man, it's okay to log in. There's nothing wrong with that. I mean, educating the newcomers to the community is also important. And I don't necessarily mean gangster, I mean a newcomer who can be like 40, 50, 60 years of age. Yeah, it's true. So yeah, I think that that is another aspect to what we want to focus on in our community work. Will you take the Mr. Russia leather title, Mr. Leather Russia, to, for example, to compete for Mr. Leather Europe? Well, I don't have the title. I'm asking. Yeah, it's quite hard to think something you don't have. Party pants. I'm asking both of you this. Do you intend to take it to the higher level? I would. And what about you? I mean, you are the current Mr. Leather Russia. Yes, Marcus. Do you want to do this? I think I would really love to represent Russia at both Mr. Leather Europe and I am in Chicago. But unfortunately, international travel still remains difficult due to COVID travel destruction. As well as getting travel visas to the EU and the USA. So I don't see it happening this year. Yeah, it's sad. It's very sad, really. I mean, one of the reasons I actually wanted to win in this competition, the one which we had in October, is because the next Mr. Leather Europe would be held in Manchester. And I'm a member of the Manchester Leathermen. So it would be my home club, so to speak. So when I applied for the competition, I thought, well, maybe if I win, if I get the title, I could basically attend the Mr. Leather Europe contest, which would be really nice because it's going to be in Manchester. But I mean, at that point, I didn't know that the travel would be so screwed up and the rest. But in general, yes, it would be really great to further this title to the international scene. I would love it. I think it would be fantastic if you could. Yeah, it was really great. The time and the pandemics is not really the best one. But yeah, it would be awesome. It would be really awesome to actually be in this atmosphere of those really grand events, especially the IML in Chicago. From what I've heard and seen, like bits and pieces of videos online, it's just a fascinating event. And it would be just so, so amazing to even be there and feel yourself among your leather brothlers from other countries. I can tell you that people in Europe and in North America are very curious about leather scenes in Russia. We don't know very much about Russia. So it would be very, very wonderful to see Russian, to see you guys coming. So what advice can both of you offer for travelers coming to Russia to enjoy the leather scene if I come wearing my jacket? What advice do you have? That's a good one. That's a really good one. And thank you for asking this question because I thought I wanted to get my point over this aspect. And I completely forgot about it. And thank you for reminding me of that. So I did mention, I think both of us did, that being gay in Russia is not necessarily the easiest thing to do. However, being a leather man in Russia is pretty much simpler. And I'm going to tell you why. Because the society in this country is pretty naive. And I would say uneducated about gay fetishes. There is no perception of leather men in society. So we wear our leather out and about, like literally full leather, maybe minus the mureka. We go for walks in the park wearing our leather. We go grocery shopping in our leather. We go to the theaters in leather, concerts and restaurants. And I mean, you name it. I wonder. And there is definitely no problem whatsoever with that one just because people think that we are either two middle-aged rockers or members of a bike club. I mean, people come to us on the streets in Moscow and St. Petersburg saying, hey guys, what sort of Harley Davidson do you drive? And it's a tricky question because neither of us does. And I don't even have a driving license. But my point here is that the general perception of a man wearing a leather jacket, even a studded leather jacket like the one you're wearing now, would be like, you're probably a biker. You just got off your Harley or your Triumph or whatever you are riding and go into a bar. Maybe you don't have a vibe in the proximity of yourself because you're going to a bar, you're going to drink and you can drive afterwards. So in this particular respect, it's really easy to be a leatherman outside. Let's put it this way within the atmosphere of the town. Yes, I think Moscow and Petersburg makes it easier. Maybe in the middle of Siberia wearing leather wouldn't necessarily apply as well. But yes, I mean, like 99% people would assume you're a biker. Actually, like, you know, the kind of guy who would beat the shit out of gays rather than a gay man. I mean, it's kind of like 100 degrees opposite. So if you're going to come to Russia and wear your leathers, I mean, please do. It's like going to be an open deal. So Marcus, Mr. Leather Russia and Dom of Pigland, I'm sorry. I would like to thank both of you for this amazing interview for Inside Leather History of Fireside Chat. Thank you so much. We really, really appreciate the fact that we have this wonderful opportunity to talk to you. And to, as Marcus says, it's a huge honor for us to be your guests. And we are really immensely grateful to you for inviting us. Not only it's been a great pleasure, but it also helped us in our goal to bring more visibility to the Russian leather community, to bring Russian Leathermen to the international family of Leathermen. Absolutely. And we appreciate literally every speaking opportunity, every interview with people who want to talk to us in terms of saying that if you allow me to change these quotes, yes, Virginia, Russian Leathermen exist. That's the message we want to bring to the international community and really hope that we can do our best to gather with Marcus as a Russian, open Russian leather couple to make a difference with our local community and with the international community as well. So thank you for this amazing opportunity. Thank you. Welcome to Russia, not to Romania. And welcome to Russia, not to Romania.