 Okay, we can start. Hello, everyone. I'm gonna kick this off. So, today I'm gonna talk to you about the case study that we had at DigitalGarden. It's the new Metasauce Apprentice website. And this course is gonna be mostly focused around user experience and really the development of the world in such a bit about a couple of things. So, starting with Romney, I'm DigitalGarden. I work at DigitalGarden. This is a Sydney-based agency that specializes in Google. The focus is quite a lot on user experience. And I'm the technical director there. I came from Portugal. Been knowing us for around four years now. And I've been working in Google for more than seven years. So, in Portugal, as a part of the community there as well. I'm the author of Web Phone Panels. So, I'm currently in the user desktop module as well. So, the team that work on this project, I was mostly involved in managing the project. As it was a pretty specific Google project, it needed a bit of a technical input as well. So, I was basically providing a bit of a tech leading as well with managing. Joanne, our lead UX designer, was pretty much in charge of all these user experience activities as well as designing the interface. We have Albert Mitran, our guru, front-end developer. That was in charge of creating this beautiful Google 7 mobile-first responsive team on Abby Brapella, our managing director, which is kind of the account management. So, the grease. So, MSF approaches the old website and they wanted to switch to Google. MSF International is already using Google on a lot of projects. And they wanted to have a mobile-first responsive website based on the existing MSF Ireland builds. So, MSF Ireland was kind enough to provide the build that they were using currently. And our job was to try and minimize changes to the back-end builds and just focus on designing user experience and creating a new Google 7 team. So, a bit about the background of the project. This is what they had before. I'll show you guys a bit more detail later. But as you can see, one of the main issues was really on the IA and the information architecture was quite confusing. It was full of industry jargon, which sometimes, especially in the NGOs, tends to be the case. They just kind of drill down on that approach. They're too involved in their own language. And sometimes we get a bit about, you know, using the website. So, there's a lot of large quantity of irrelevant content drill. And it's one of the things they wanted to address with the new content strategy for MSF Australia. If you look at the home page, for example, you can see that there's no hierarchy in this home page. So, if you try and look at this and try to find your remote buttons or how to join a team, it's pretty bland into the rest of the website. So, we really wanted to try and create a hierarchy of content. To try and prioritize things and try to understand what are the main goals or the secondary goals and make that reflect into the whole user experience and design process. The previous website that they were going to be using was UserType3CMS. So, they have kind of a workflow from a network perspective that really makes it easy of their content. And they were extremely excited to start using it with that. Obviously, it was a non-responsive website. And they fixed it with this line. They did make some adaptations to some templates because, you know, people are making donations. So, let's create, you know, a couple of pages and make them responsive. Then, obviously, that creates another problem which is quite a distant act to start into this mobile website and then you want to see a bit more information and all that stuff and that wasn't really producing very good results. So, outlining the project. A mobile first was key. This is one of the main things in the brief. They really wanted to start on a mobile first approach. It was kind of a new thing for them as well. Obviously responsive. And they wanted to take a content first and use it simply because they wanted to really fix some of the mistakes that they made in the past on not thinking about their audience and basically only thinking about kind of internal agendas and objectives so each department had their own goals and just competing against each other and then the other you see on the homepage, that's what it is and sort of, you know, what do users want, what do they need out of the answer. Obviously, Drew will see us before the project and we wanted to make sure that we try to use as much functionality as possible with what was already there and if we were going to make changes that would be the best possible way to do this. But content type talking will use features of each kind of important process. So the content strategy. This was the key, I think, that very core of the entire user experience project. The new designs to bring out the best of the new website content strategies so as first Australian users like this. So this was really the main thing. They wanted to switch the way they were communicating to their audience by this build around story time, which is obviously quite more a bit attractive from several perspectives. So the three pillars that we're going to follow in terms of content strategy would be to prioritize first person stories from start and patients instead of just more institutional news. One of the prior types of content that was mostly relevant to Australian user instead of quite a bit of both professional content. And we wanted to make the most of great photography and video content that I've ever done. Probably one of the best photography that I've ever done. So starting the project, the beginning of the project was a discovery phase. And this is a series of similar workshops through search activities. We're really trying to understand a bit more about what is it that we're really trying to achieve. What we want to do, we want to build a website and we want to make it responsive So we really look at things like business schools, target audiences, we create kind of an internal group that starts to be the entire user experience part so main goals and objectives. The first thing that we have defined not surprisingly is the two main goals is increasing donations, making donations more prominent and increasing the volunteer base of the NSO. So these were the two main things that we really wanted to post through the entire project. Second, the goals. Increasing engagement through storytelling so people reading more of the NSF stories, studying things and stats to improve that. And it was something that was by far the hypothesis around storytelling as a common strategy will prove true. And the second and secondary goal will be to increase situations to kind of help go and communicate better with users so that they can basically increase the main goals and objectives so that the activities, back and forth, is like pushing organizations more, joining that team. So in terms of key tasks we wanted to make sure that we had an accessible information architecture. A woman can improve navigation mechanics. But they had this kind of drop-line style menu where you start hovering and it feels like a strategy. The menu was pretty almost invisible. So people just, you know, it's kind of a bit of text in the middle of the page. And they wanted to really have, especially on the home page, to be really both focused. So instead of internally generating this kind of competing against each other, we do try and understand really valuable goals of this. And I can show you that there it is. I don't know if you can see it. I don't know if I can see it, but I have to strip some tears. So basically what you can see on the home page is if you try and understand what's more important from the logo on the website, you'll be caught. There's buttons with donations kind of spread everywhere. It's really clean and simple. So I may use this, not have to fight COVID-19, but it's actually very valuable. Some looking field guidelines that may pass through the brief as well. So if you want to, obviously, increase culture action prominence, there's a set of parts of the new design you can see that we're not doing anything like this. So to try and keep it out of the information architecture instead of just being another menu link, so at least some sort of sticky navigation so that wherever you are, you want to make sure that the main doors are always present and you want to look away. We want to make sure that we've had, obviously, compliance with branding guidelines. They've had a huge break from a branding guidelines perspective, as you can imagine. So we want to make sure that whatever we did was compliant with that, but we want to try and kind of make things a bit fresher We were trying for a flat model look, which is kind of what we're all doing. I'm single, like, sub-standing building nowadays from less imagery, more CSS-based interface faster, cleaner, and really helps promote the approach we're actually building. And then we work to the resources between the classic color scheme versus the different model scheme like black versus black in order to try and test a couple of different colors for a mobile course. So instead of starting to mock up some design things, you want to just step where from and you'll start with a white one. You might sometimes find that a bit charming and then you come to them and just show them this mobile screen and not really think about that stuff. But it really helps. And I'll show you why we really believe in that approach. So if we... I'll show you. Okay, so some references that we pulled from them and from us as well. And so, obviously, being one of the biggest NGOs on this place, there's a lot of people from other organizations, the kinds of teams of people working on the same problem that we're trying to solve. So I wanted to kind of level it out a bit instead of starting from scratch. One of the things that we really like on this one, I'll show you the actual website, is that you can see here that it's really, really well achieved in terms of many hierarchy aggregations. You can see clearly that there's three main areas that are more prominent. And the secondary rules are easy to spot from a type of a people's perspective. It's smaller, different from others, more, but also from a background perspective. So that's really clear. And if you go mobile, obviously it's corporate, you get the dimension button sticking out of the navigation. It's not that we've been in the mobile area, which is also very important. So we really like this website when we did use this reference to our panel. So here we have Unicef still so what these guys did really well were corporations. So they did, which I was discussing before, every page we have contractions available. So you can see clearly that although it's not very visible here, that the nation's clearly the main thing is red's powerful primary and you have a more secondary tone-bound culture action which is, in this case, countless. It's kind of their primary volunteer has as well. They also have a sticking out. So one of the things that we found interesting not that sticking out is particularly new. Let's see if I can find out here. They just changed my page just now. Donation time. Okay. Yeah. I'm going to do these things. It's like they make it really difficult, eh? Okay. You can't close it. You need to put some money first. I think. The thing about sticking out is that if you have some sort of animation, for example, something that really gives the visual to the user to say, hey, I'm here. And when you're scrolling down, the user kind of registers this. So they know that if they need to donate, if they need to, you know, get some helpful information from the organization, that it's there with them and they follow up. Their thought of the culture is still good as well. So they have the culture of action which is still primary and still quite prominent animal welfare. Which is pretty good as well. Going a bit to the MSF. So MSF Poland really tried to achieve exactly what we're trying to do. So they went for the new flat modern look to change the color to be kind of a darker color scheme. But they kind of overdid the animation stuff. So you go to this home page, I'm sure you've seen these kinds of examples where you go to this home page and it's kind of a big mess of, you know, hover states and moving things around. So I think there's no hierarchy again, which is again the same problem. So it's visually appealing and one of the things that everyone agreed was this is a good looking website. But again, difficult to really try and understand what is the hierarchy. I had a really good story page later. And I read it to the public. I don't know about you as well. So also, with another example, this one's provided by them. They like kind of the clean approach to this. Yeah, it's a pretty good smart approach to the typography. So basically, they only really had coming out with special types for titles. The rest was kind of by sponsor default funds, which is pretty helpful when you're doing mobile first. So in terms of performance and so on. And they, again, had a good balance between primary and secondary navigation. Very good release of energy, which is one of the things they tried to achieve. And the way they approached their menus through this kind of mega-menu we're not totally convinced that this was the way to go. We were trying to solve a problem in terms of automation architecture, which is often challenging. Even labels sometimes are not good enough. Sometimes we need something more to tell the user what they should expect when they make that money. After we analyzed some references, we started looking at some data. Like I said, the previous website was built on completely built-on assumptions. Nobody really looked at that. This is definitely the way to go. I think this is a great idea. The board thinks this is the way to go. So nobody really looked at what was actually going on. And this is something that they themselves really wanted to change. One of the things that was amazing about this project was that the MSF team was brilliant. They were totally on track. We really cooperated and it was kind of feeling that it was the same team, basically. So the questions that we started asking was, what do users want? What inspires them to support the organization? And we kind of... Obviously a bit biased is that all marketing activities, ad words campaigns are all aimed at this. But really, it's all about hundreds of recruiting. People do want to join. People do want to help sometimes, maybe not with donations, but with something else. But we wanted to find out, depending on the type of users that you are, how can I help? I don't want to make a donation, you know, information available quickly accessible to support those types of users. Then there are other positive outcomes that can come from the entire user experience. So, some data guided decisions. What do visitors want? They want the quickly information of stories for inspiration. This is kind of ordered by priority. So this was the main point. They want to donate information facility of stories for inspiration. They want to read about what's going on in the world with MSF. They want information about who MSF is and what they stand for. And they wanted a source of high-relevant, high-quality news information. This is kind of contrasting with the other approach. This is what they don't want. Which is curious to look at. Which is an archive of relevant operational updates, reports and press releases, breaking news, wire call, MSF operations and stuff that can figure out how to navigate. So why stories? So the thing with first person stories is that they really provide kind of a window to feel the realities in a way that everyone can relate to. They can inspire people to support. So they are engaging, they're relatable, they're emotional, they're authentic, they're proximal. Which is the whole point of the entire user experience that we're trying to achieve. Institutional updates on the other hands are quite full of stats. They make MSF sound this kind of superhuman organization where patients almost become members. So it's quite less relatable, emotional to the person, and very statistical. And this is an interesting piece of data that they gave us. Of the people who read first person stories from our field were presented on the international blog. This is the international website from MSF. And click through to the MSF.org.au 71% went straight to our recruitment information. 71% is a pretty interesting number. So we kind of really knew that this was something that we wouldn't want to put there. This was another yet very interesting piece of data that we found on Discovery Search. This is a study by University of Pennsylvania. And it suggests that more nations are generally focusing on significant terrible vehicles. So these are real people with a name, with a face, etc. They increase the number of donations while the statistical personas, if you will, which are not real people, but they represent a reality of an issue that's going on in the world. Full of stats, full of, you know, there's 1,000 people, a million people like this. They are not as engaging from a donation perspective. And one thing that we're really, really surprised is that if you get someone that is a tangible victim and you just put some stats, kind of like, you know, in a situation as John, there are a million people that immediately decreases their national proportion, which is pretty impressive. We were completely unaware of this. So that was interesting. So obviously there was other types of research and activities, but the bottom line was we weren't as much of a weapon as we could when we get to the prototyping stage and really try and understand who NSF is, what we're trying to achieve, who the users are, and what they really want to achieve. So we picked in the prototyping stage. We, in Digital Garden, we have several approaches to prototyping. It really depends on the project. Sometimes we go more low fidelity, sometimes higher fidelity. For this project, as a user, Jeremy was really something that we're trying to get right and really map at each user direction. How to develop it was definitely the way it goes. We're excited to go with a high fidelity zero prototype. And we obviously advise everybody to get off the most important pieces of work that we could start doing with that when we start working on that information architecture. This is always something that requires quite a bit of iterations. We need the client for this. Normally when we're doing work like this, the client is kind of a really, really important piece of the puzzle. They know this better than we do. But we can criticize some decisions. We can criticize some things that make things a bit out of here. So all we've come up with is a very simplified navigation. So we have quite less options and way more easy to understand terms like drawing our team and doing that. It's always in use rather than field workers and things that people we don't know what we're going to need. And we've started prioritizing for many traffic areas of the website based on the data that we're analyzing. So the homepage tried to be bolder focusing users in basically the two lingles, donations, and drawing our team, and then the two secondary rules, which stores and subscriptions. And one of the things that they were really hoping to get was to, for site managers, company managers to be able to respond quickly to emergencies. And that bolder upgrade and quickly they want to reshuffle their homepage. They really couldn't do that when they promised them this. And they started to see the power of what Google is wearing in a couple of minutes. You can really completely reshuffle your homepage. Because content, they do have a lot of content but the workflows from a publishing perspective were quite more complicated. So I'll show you so this is the final kind of prototype. Till we get to this point we go through several rounds of changes and this is what we show them basically. This is the mobile version. So as you can see the good thing about doing mobile first is it's not so much which it is, obviously it's better in terms of performance and you really make sure that the elements that are on mobile stick on the desktop and you make decisions on mobile first it's a lot about content hierarchy. This really allows us, it's the stack version of a website. So if you're trying to try a twice thing, and really what's on top should be more important. It's on the bottom should be less important. And if you start remembering those main goals and secondary goals and you can see both of them are always present on mobile as well and you can see there's this kind of heading area so that they have somewhere to put you know emergency goals and emergency so this is kind of your banner area and your headline area. The primary goal, the second primary goal are some stories which are our first secondary goals. The primary goal would be to be together to do something. There's a very main goal about this with reference. I can see that it's small and complete and I imagine that it really gives that freedom of view. And we want to make sure that we manage this as a personal thing as well. So that's the kind of center of our main goal. Thank you so much for being here today. I'm going to go ahead and share some of the main goals and some of the main goals and some of the things that I want to comment on is just to make sure that if you want to know some really important stories that they don't get to tell for your favorite stories. So this is kind of our part of the social channel and there are a lot of things that we don't need to talk about so we need to follow them all the way and just manage all of the things that we want to share and have a strong way of moving through this channel. Thank you so much for being here today. Thank you. And flexible content. And this was, I think, I can't really name a winner of this project if it would be the Paragraphs. Paragraphs was absolutely paramount to the success of this. They wanted to have a great story layout but they didn't want it to feel repetitive and boring. So right, because we do have an approach to design that's component-based so we really don't build pages and we really start looking at what can make a story, like a clockwork, a text, it's up to the site managers to really kind of build what a story is. So each story can actually look quite different and they were extremely pleased with this. So we wanted to make sure also that we had an authorship and an engagement tool so if you're reading a story about a Python or a staff member, a nurse, sometimes you might want to read it more about her so using things like entity reference to reference to relate a piece of content with the author you go to the author, read a bit about the nurse and then you handle all the stories and this creates a secret approach where people are engaged and keep reading content. That's one of the things they wanted to do as well as maintain users more time on the website. And then you just replace some of the things that the older build has like very difficult sharing options which are very kind of out of the box share this or add this tool to serve people share it to suck me a bit easier and like I was saying the author is a bit more of an informant. So this kind of increases that emotional reflection that I was talking about humanizing MSF a bit more cleaning up the nurses and understanding MSF is made of people, people that help people that built everywhere in the world to help other people. So we wanted to make sure that stories were to really make that transpire that stories are about people, there are some people and there are two people obviously and it answers the first person perspective so you're reading a story that Nanos wrote and then you read about her and this kind of reading creates that emotional reflection. It also provides an alternate way of exploring stories. So if you want to see stories from a person's perspective then you can go to the profile and see what she wrote about. The other area which was one of the things that I mentioned before is we wanted to make sure that people understand what MSF is and what they're trying to do, where they are so we kind of use that modules and things like that to start spreading out the different types of locations that MSF is and again this is yet another way to browse content. So if we go to a country page this will be where your map is so if you click on here, Bangladesh for example then you read about MSF in Bangladesh and then there will be related stories on the bottom of the map with that location. So again stick with the worksheet content. We wanted to understand as well what issues MSF was working on and these are typically very related to locations. So again contextual navigation always presents next to the locations if you're reading about something new and there are types of issues that really relate to that location and again we take so many of the references we can make that work. Donations is obviously pretty important. We didn't have a lot of difficulty to work on this on the actual donation so the donation form our role was mostly making sure that the layout was consistent with the rest but we could support the donation process a bit better and that was something that really didn't happen before. So before if you went to donations you just went straight to the form no context, no information, just fill in some dialogue for the credit card. So in order to be a bit more guided process something like you choose the type of donation that you're doing if you want to read a bit more you can have other ways here as the impact of donation you start having some supporting information around the donation process. We use consistency so what this means is when you have those websites that have like 30 content types of 40 so that's what we try to get rid of here they have a lot of content types it's like almost a title of the content type. So we want to make sure that we have way less content types so we ended up with something on all designs but because of paragraphs the consistency was great because really within each content type the elements that each content type have in its majority were exactly the same so if you're building a gallery and people content type has a gallery and a story has a gallery it's the same component and paragraphs really brings that to the implementation point of things obviously you create a lot of consistency and not just design increases benefits of scale so every time you make a new content type you can start reusing components from your component by the library and simplify content I didn't quite agree with so it's not that kind of thing where we should comment actually So once we have a prototype and the way our process works this becomes really the source of truth this is kind of the bible now we do all this research we give it an usability testing on top of this there were focus groups some surveys were done beforehand as well so you really want to touch this too much in terms of structure in terms of principle so the design follows this one of the good things that we have we join as well as that having a UX design that's working on the user experience process and then designs the interface is really kind of a stream of consistent approach based on So it's a kind of a bottoms up approach you start with as granular as you can if you're familiar with breadth-crossed work, atomic design we kind of follow the same principles we start with granular from what he calls Adams and then we start going up from there we really only arrive to pages quite later down the track we make sure that components are as context-independent as possible so that they are not if you take any design component that only really works on that page then it's really not context-independent components should be functional and should work regardless of where it sits and then obviously there are some variations and additions to be done on the context of a certain page and so on and then we can support a measurable paragraph I can't believe I'm on the progress module and not the emails starting with the breadth this is a really small sample of the multitude of things that we catch here look through in terms of the grand different guidelines that they have so we want to make sure that whatever we do is consistent with the guidelines that they provide we start moving on to master styles so the way master styles work is you start with the basic the type sense the type of other products and things like that and only after we have that do we start creating more complexity we start having a little bit of grid systems as well when you type some grid systems out we lay out, say we get one and when we're defining components we typically build a style guide I'll show you so I think nowadays we can do this automated from sketch so you can see you have our color palette here you have our type sets and as you can see the type sets are not like page 182 etc they're breaking back and why do we do this we do this because we want to make sure that our type register sets are independent as possible so if you're building a heading one of these type sets with some variations and I'll explain how we do this on the development side and then if you get a type order for you then yes when we approach component design we typically have two types of components simple components will be those really granular components that really can't be divided so links, things like that and then you might have some complex components which are built with other components so if you think about code wise for example in each of your components on status or something as a second file then you might have other files that depend on other files and this really maintains the consistency throughout the entire process so sometimes there could be time aggregations and teasers that are built on several elements so for example a small component could be the author the logo within the teaser so when you see the author here on the story for example this could be a component it can be reused elsewhere on the website on multiple places but this as well the entire thing is a component which is a really interesting approach and it really helps us make sure that our design process matches our development process we go into body layout so this is where also the great systems you can see a couple of them here the component body layout of course is a story file or a file model some of the components that you have to fill out on the story first so in terms of design itself so what we start doing once we have all these nailed down is the concept so I'm going to show you a couple of them here so this was one of the concepts we see that the collections were next to the slide where the component area and then you start going down and you count this kind of welcome text and you count live stories so on see what the concept be this one's a bit different which is this area is actually what welcome text so called live and then the live stories about this layout so basically we're just kind of experimenting with cool things and then this one which is more in line with the classic line and such style so the clean white with red and again do different call list interactions live stories and so on so on each of these approaches they are still maintaining consistency with what we were discussing before ok so some tools that we use sketch dropbox that's pretty much what we use for every design I can see a couple of things here so in terms of front end development it's exactly the same approach so I'm not going to go into too much here because it really follows the exact same principles we use the master styles then we start implementing the components in SAS then we move to layouts you know we try to use VMs versus pixels we have some tools to make conversions to make sure that our collaborative process with designers is straight lines and we want to make sure that we avoid images as possible so we use fontail and things like that some tools that we use for font ends omega theme or things we use on this one we can use it any one of you would like scissor grids, stats penning which is an amazing tool that I definitely recommend you guys checking out one of our front end developers so you can see the instruction on the typesets and the configuration for the several breakboxes that are available so this is all kind of centralizing her result ok, talking a bit about results to wrap it up I mentioned that before that there were some usability testing before we started the project so one of the things were we giving some information architecture activities and the results were basically about 600% if people could find what they were looking for there is a lot of give up some critical feedback it's really difficult not to get the all out menus you can't be disappearing and you can't have a prominent chain which we don't have as discussed menu headings are small and all of these are difficult to see I think like this one, this one, this one's my favorite sometimes I feel it matters I limited every section and wonder if this slide is designed by academic persons I wonder if that makes sense to people a lot of them will be more than average and the majority such as myself good, good one so after 99% of participants were already successfully final pages they were asked to this is significantly improving the percentage of the 600% that we have before stories from our patients and staff which is the focus and I would say is more traffic than news from our projects or any other types of articles on the website and basically how we manage to validate the articles first person stories are more engaging than operational news updates some critical feedback it's easy to navigate doesn't contain too much information don't find the website frustrating at all it's easy to navigate easy to navigate appears a lot which is really good because that's really what we're trying to achieve there's always more to do but that's a good start so some metrics obviously there are other things that play a role in this and things like that but overall 30% increase in visitors we had a 52% increase in revenue which would be impressive 41% increase in number of donations 7.68% increase in donation amount and the 3.28% increase in donation amount so that's that was obviously we made a copy and one of the things that we started hearing about after we released the project is that everywhere in the world we started getting feedback from NSF branches okay cool what did you guys do which is awesome so we got amazing feedback from everywhere in the world from South Africa to Germany to wherever not just want to make the website look like this but really what was the process that you guys went through and this is I think the critical part of the project I really want to thank the MSF team I think this is probably the most important thing in my entire presentation there is no success these guys are amazing they were really filled into let's do this we are a team together amazing digital team they were really on board with the whole mobile first and sometimes people might be a bit resilient on some of these things but they were fully supportive throughout the entire journey and I think to get results like this there is really no other way because as good as we might think we are we don't know what the reason is because they do we don't know the users we don't know the audience and they know that really well so if they are willing to play ball with us ensure that knowledge and do some workshops and really have a really collaborative approach then the results are really good for themselves that's it all right we've got about five minutes for a question so please put your hand up if you have a question wait for the microphone to come to you and just hold on to the microphone until your question is over very interesting a couple of questions the first one is how long did it take to do the whole wireframing and the study and did you have to migrate a lot of content from the previous websites to the new ones so in terms of frameworks I think it's our own and as a strategy with our process the standard process is very important so please let's stand down we need to spend as much time as we can and really try to understand this and if you get to approach like that and you respect it which is also very important it's easy to do so we need to make sure that we respect the kind of approach that we have then the actual development process takes quite a bit in terms of in terms of the migration of content so one of the things that we want to do is save the opportunity to just remove almost any content that they have so we could have done another migration process but it would be difficult to match because it would be very rough because the content is still there but they really need to consider that approach they want to say that they already have the same answer so we just want to take a little bit more time before we have content if you want to understand this we need to be able to satisfy so we can stop operating content and as we approach you know, nourishes our first approach we start seeing you over the years thank you any other questions? that was a great and a very positive story so I just wanted to know what caused more pain and you resolved so some scholars for example are understanding so this time through sometimes we really don't understand when they mean something that we use specifically if you're an animation artist we don't understand we just speak we will learn but I remember a project that was a little bit different from finance to you know, legal to whatever so that's definitely one of the challenges the other challenge was working with the existing build that was a pretty big challenge so that's a lot of potential and some of the memories is trying to really understand what's there there were some pretty naughty things not enough built that should be there so we wanted to promote some more we went further and we knew that in quite a bit of place we moved a lot of times I think they had 200 people and a lot of those were just the youth so that was challenging because we had to understand how this could be to really try now clean so I think those would have made it amongst the rest but I said to the client I really want to get a comment about this just I was going to ask you the product top you had is that a tool or how did you okay it's very nice yes okay so it really depends on sometimes it's a bit of a work it's going to make it a little more you can just kind of mock them and say whatever just getting the other process and saying but what do you know what that's going to be and what I understand the client doesn't know how to think about that but you need a better drug for it so you can do that so it's not just out you can do you can do umm also have yeah I think yeah thanks I got a quick question before you being a multinational client in the back of your mind were you obviously you wanted to do a great job but in the back of your mind were you thinking well if we're doing a really good job here we might end up working for some in the other regions. Any last questions? All right. Please, no big round of applause again for Jules. All right. And don't forget that all these talks are going up on the website in about a week. So please share them with your colleagues. Thank you.