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What are you fucking talking about? I'm in bed. No, we've just chased you, you've just come and you know, it's nothing to do with me. Nick me charged me, was I convicted? Of course I fucking was. And this was at the time when a lot of European football matches were on and whatever else. And it was a smuggler's fucking paradise. The people I work with had the best roots. What customs officer wants, there's 10 coaches of English fans coming through at the pool. What customs officer wants to get a load of pissed up English fans off on the dock and start searching them. Get them fuckers through. I would have met the darts a few days before, I'd be plotting in an hotel. I'll meet them at the match, give them the bags, they're going to the coach, you just sling them on them. I eventually got called and got 10 year for people smoking. What they done is they duped me and said we need to take you to hospital to make sure you're fit to be questioned. And they drove me over into the English control zone. And charged you? They said you're now under arrest, drove me back to England. Did they have a lot for that? Nope, it was totally illegal. Every move they fucking done was illegal. Technically I was kidnapped by British customs and brought back to the UK because of the people smuggling. So I'm such a big thing and they didn't want it to be... New trends. Exactly. I'd actually took someone hostage, one of my mates for some unknown reason. And I was out of me nut, I took him hostage, armed police stormed the flat to get him out. And they were going to shoot me, they told me that afterwards. I worked out a plan, I thought the only way I'm going to get out is I need to make some sort of weapon that's intimidating enough. And at the time I thought, right, I'll get a pen, so I've got a big pen, a paper clip, and I filled it up with black current jam. And I took the prison officer hostage in the courtroom and said, if I don't open the doors, I'm going to inject him. So they opened all the doors. So at the time they opened the doors and let me go. When I eventually got arrested three months later I was done for 23 false imprisonments including the fucking judge. Ben, we're on. Today's guest, we've got London's Ray Bishop. James, lovely to meet you at last. Yeah, nice to meet you. You've led a very interesting life, brother. Yeah, somewhat. You're about to touch on Outlaw. You've just gave me it, so I will get rid of it, brother. You like the pictures. Yeah, probably, mate. I struggle to read, mate. But you've led a very interesting life from being one of Britain's most wanted men. You've nearly spent over 20 years in prison, armed robberies, drugs, people trafficking. You've done it all, drug addiction. But the beauty of life, brother, you changed. Most definitely, you know. I'm a great reformist. I think, now when my autobiography came out and I wrote it for Virgin, it was Noel Razorsmith, very good friend of mine, fantastic author as you know. He asked me to write it because he knew my story, he knew my tale. You know, I'd spent a lot of time with Razor when he was doing 25 years in the early 90s. I was locked up with him in Eyed Down and I passed crossed again. He said, you've got to write your book, you've got a fascinating tale. It's almost unbelievable. So I wrote it, Razor took it, he'd give it to the publisher that he knew. The publishing company read it and said, this has to go to a major publisher. I was like, wow, you know, it's just my story. It went to Virgin and Virgin said, we're going to release this, you know, blown away. The most wanted bit, bit sensationalised, that was Virgin to sell books. I was for a period, you know, after I had escaped from prison, whatever else. But I don't know if I really liked that so much because I'm a great reformist. It makes you sound a bit like Raul Mote or the Yorkshire fucking Whipper, which I am. Yeah, I know, yeah, yeah. Like I say, those kind of stuff, sales. It does. At that point you were, so it is true. We're good friends, we know Razor Smith, great man. Fantastic. Another reformed character is doing amazing in life. A lot of love for no Terry Ellis as well, who's on the show again. Another inspiration. Bully Muir, who's became a good friend. Another inspiration, another friend of mine. He's became a very good friend, man, over the last year. Billy's lived it, you know, I know Bill. Me and Bill go way back, you know, Bill comes from the same school as me. You know, our paths have crossed on this occasion, you know, he's a fighting man. Like I was myself, you know, he's a good man, Billy. Well, Bully. Oh, yeah, them all. Bully, prayer before dawn, but shout out because congratulations as well. His message just had a son. Yeah, fantastic Billy. Fantastic Billy for beating cancer. Cancer won't beat you, my old mate. Nah, he's too strong, he's been through too much shit. And he's working on a second book, man, so... Again, mate, it's all fucking crazy characters, we know that. I don't know a few strike hours, you know. So he says... So I always go back to the start with my guest, brother. Where did you get up and how it all began? Well, I grew up in Woolwich, which is south-east London. You know, a normal working-class family. Mother, Irish immigrant, you know, came here in the 60s. Dad wasn't around much. Dad was alcoholic. Dad was on the missing. Mother done the best she could. But you know, it was tough times growing up, you know. I wasn't this tough kid or I wasn't this man who I've been portrayed now. I mean, as a child I was very frightened, very full of fear. Didn't feel like I had no place anywhere, didn't belong. And I guess I started to act as a young age to try to be accepted, if you know what I mean. And that meant, you know, I was pulled astray at a young age with the other kids on the estate. None of us had a lot, we didn't have a lot, no. And we all stuck together. And inevitably at some point we all ended up going down the wrong road. But for a multitude of reasons. So how was your upbringing from the teenage years? Who was those years for you? You know what, it was quite tough. You know, there wasn't a lot of love to go around. But it was because it was tough times, you know, tough times. My mother done the best she could, as did my stepfather. I had siblings, you know, I was at the bottom of the pile. You know, older brother, older sisters. So, you know, it was a big family. It was a big family. Billy did anything? Pardon? Will you Billy did anything? Well, school I was, I used to have big ears. You know, I wasn't always as good looking as I am now. I'm quite intimidated because you've got a lovely mane of air. Thank you, brother. But I used to have big ears. My ears used to stick out when I was a kid. Did you get them pinned back? I did. And this is one of the defining moments in my childhood. I felt so inferior to other kids. I was so conscious of my ears. I actually took myself to the hospital, said to the doctors, I'm really sick of it and whatever. And they said, right, OK, we'll send you to get your ears pinned back. Now, when I had my ears pinned back, I got my ears pinned back in the Queen Elizabeth Military Hospital, which was, it was a military hospital. It's no longer a military hospital in Woolwich. And it was at the time of the Falklands War. And I was on the same wall as Simon Weston, who, I don't know if you know, Simon Weston, he got blown up on the Bismarck or something in the Falklands and he was all burned, really badly burned. I was on the same wall as him, because it was a plastic surgery unit, and with the bandsman who had been blown up at Hyde Park as well. They were there. And that's one thing I highlighted there in my book. I said, I never heard a moan once. Some of them had lost limbs. Simon Weston was so badly burned. All I remember is they used to put him in a cold bath in the morning and leave him there for hours, because he was in so much pain. And the resilience of their men, incredible. How old were you? I was about nine years old, I think, about nine. But what happened was there was a complication. When they'd done one of my ears, something went wrong. So I had to go on to this plastic surgery unit to have more constructive work done on one of my ears. And because they were all military doctors, they all had, like, military names. And I was in a plastic surgery burns unit, and the person who'd done my operation was called Major Burns. You couldn't write this stuff, could you? So how was it then? So you were kind of bullied and you just kind of wanted it to stop? How was it then getting older? When did you start kind of getting into the cream? Well, I was bullied as a kid. I was full of fear. I wasn't one of these tough kids. I never would sit here and I was one of these big, odd kids and I was never a bully myself. Always hated bullies. But I started getting into crime and drugs, probably when I was about 15, 16. And it was just silly little things, like nicking car radios, shoplifting, all this sort of stuff. And it was the normal, it was what people did. But again, I don't make excuses for the bad choices I made, but at the time I didn't really know much different. You know, it was tough times, it was tough camps for a state. There was not a lot to go around. None of us had a lot. It was fat just Britain. And in a lot of senses, we were the fucking lost generation. You know, the conservative party at the time invested in our future by building this big prison called Belmarsh, where I live. You know, my Woolwich is here, Belmarsh is here. And as quick as it was going up, the police used to come on the estate and they used to tell us, you're all going to be in there soon. And that was the truth. And some of us ended up in there for things we hadn't even fucking done. Didn't make much difference. Oh, most definitely. First time I got stitched up for something I hadn't done. Now I don't want to paint this thing up. I was always squeaky clean, I wasn't. I was doing bits and bobs or whatever. The police burst through my house six o'clock in the morning. I was in bed with my partner. I was about 17 years old. Because I was a young dad. I was a dad at 16. I was about 17 years old. They said, we've just seen you driving a Nick car. You're under arrest. What are you fucking talking about? I'm in bed. No, we've just chased you. You've just come. And you know, it's nothing to do with me. Nick me charged me. Was I convicted? Of course I fucking was. Go to court, guilty. You know. What was your first sentence? My first sentence was a young offender's institution. I think I went away for seven months, I think. Who was that, Foster Eamonn Seed? If I'm to be brutally honest, I was quite, I was full of fear. I won't lie to you. You know, when I first walked through the doors of Felton, you heard all these stories about whatever or some whatever. But I was quite fortunate because although I was full of fear, the minute I got on the wing, I knew lots of people. So, and it was always that way for me. You know, I'd end up going. And because I was from an estate with loads of people who were similar to me and whatever else. And if you, if you wasn't, if you didn't know someone, you knew their brother, their cousin or whatever. So I knew people from day one. Yeah. What is it? Did you start boxing? I started, I was boxing as a kid. You know, I went to St. Peter's, which was a... Was that to stop the bullies? Well, I just went into it because it was, it was there. It was available. We used to have PE classes, the caretaker of the school, Mr. Gaines was fantastic. And we used to have all the boxing bags and all that in the gym, you know. Five mile away, I'd bring it back into schools, but that's another, another debate altogether. And I started boxing there as a kid and didn't really have that many amateur fights. But I trained, I used to spar and train and train and train. And yeah, so I got into it quite young. What is it? Did you start getting out of serious stuff? Serious fighting or serious crime? Well, I suppose I started to get into serious crime in my early 20s. Early 20s. Robberies. Robberies. Yeah. Banks, post offices. Banks, post offices. The mall. Building societies, bureau of the changes. What was it like doing your first job? First job, I was the driver on one of my first jobs. And then after that, I was in. Yeah. And actually, did you get a buzz for that? Most definitely. Do you? I'd be lying if I said I did. Yeah. And that was the starting point of getting a bit of money, getting a bit of power. Yeah. Yeah. But then we had a spate of shootings in our area. The police started shooting robbers. I don't know if you remember. It was a period where they had a shoot to kill policy. They had a unit called PT-17. You still got that of the night? Well, there was SO-19, which was like the flying squad sort of wherever. I mean, I'm not a police expert, but I do know this squad was called PT-17. They were a fucking execution squad. And what they would do him was the armed robbery rate had gone up so high. They said, right, we're going to whatever. I think it was Douglas Erd was the home secretary at the time. He said, take a few out. And that will get rid of... We were like a young coward. Were we organized? Were we like the fucking oceans 11? No, we fucking weren't. We were just game kids doing crazy fucking things. We could have a robbery one day for 200 quid and another day we'd have one for 10 grand. It was sometimes I'd done two in a week. I robbed the same post office four times in two months before. You know, I'm not proud of it, but that's the sort of robbers we were. But anyway, yeah, like on our area, there was the generation just above me. Two of them got shot dead on a security van and my other friend, as he turned to run away, they shot him in the back. So that tells you what they were doing. Did that ever scare you to go... No, it was definitely. And it brought the armed robbery rate down. And then what we'd done, criminally, we were probably the original smash and grab gang. You know, I don't know if you remember the ram raids and whatever else. Well, we sort of started that off like a little crew that I was with and we'd done a few crazy things like that, a few good ones and a few funny ones. Did you become more organized once you realize people are getting killed? Definitely, 100%. And the sort of clientele that would pull you in. I mean, when you're into the robbery game and all that sort of stuff, there's a lot in the periphery. You know, you're talking about getaway cars and all sorts of bits and bobs and whatever. And some of the more major gangs at the time that operated our area because we were good at nicking cars and things. These were skills we learned when we was young, nicking high-performance vehicles or whatever. They'd say, why can't you nick them out and leave it somewhere for us or whatever. And you go, yeah, no problem. They'd give you a little... You don't know whatever else happened, but you know they want that car to do a bit of work and whatever. So there's a lot that goes on. So there was a lot more organization. When did you get your first big sentence? I got my first big sentence in about 1994. I think it was 94. I ended up getting five in nine months. I got a three-and-a-half year for a failed. It was going to be a robbery on a post office. We'd gone the day before. We had a thing where we used to phone the bell boxes back then they used to have these big massive old bells and they didn't used to be alarm. The actual post office, the alarm that you had on the outside was to what was called a trembler, which was on the safe. And that was the only part of the building that was alarmed. So what we used to do the day before is go and fill it with expandable foam so that if we went in the robbit and they set off the alarm, there would be no ring or whatever. I can talk about it, it was in Dartford. Two of my friends got arrested at the scene because we'd done it quickly in a vehicle. I got arrested a mile-and-a-half away in a phone box. No evidence whatsoever, really and truthfully. I should have been on your way, but because of my affiliation to them and the police knowing I'm a mile-and-a-half away, you're nicked. And you got a say for that? No, I got three-and-a-half year for that. And what happened is my two pals got two-and-a-half year. One of them farted in the dog. I laughed at the judge giving extra 12 months. I swear to God. What? I swear to fucking God. I laughed at my mate and they gave me an extra fucking 12 months for laughing. I was laughing at him. Did you think he was laughing at his sentence? He thought I was laughing at the severity of it. And then on top of that, I got another two-and-a-half years for... It was a high-value burglary. I had over half a million pound out of a big main post office in Bromley. Not in money. I had it in items and whatever else. Back then, you used to be able to get the phone stamps, electricity stamps and whatever. We used to take the fucking lot because you could sell them. You know, at times I'd... Books of electric said, no one on my fucking estate paid an electric bill. So in some senses, it was like that sort of side of it. It was quite fucking fulfilling. It was a bit of a Robin Hood. You could pay your phone bill, your electric bill, fucking everything. Heating everything on. That's how you must have known. The whole bridge has been done if everybody's fucking leased around. The way that came on top is the way it came on top for us all and there was an observation put on our little crew at the time was because we had to get the books to put the stamps in to sell them because you couldn't sell them in sheets. You had to put them in the books and you'd sell the books or thing and some fucking idiot walked into a post office and asked for like 500 books or something. Someone associated to us. They obviously thought this is a bit suspicious. They've tipped the other mob off and the next thing you know is all our doors have gone. Yeah. Did you have a tape crew? Very much so. Yeah. Did everyone of you do big sentences? Yeah. Some of them are dead. You know, I don't... On a job? Well, not on a job. You know, I'm not going to say names or anything. A couple of died. Drug overdoses. Another friend of mine got murdered. Another one took his own life. There was a lot of us. You know, there might be 20 of us or whatever because we all interacted from different estates or whatever else. I don't want to... I laugh about whether I'm not laughing at the victims or whatever else. What I'm laughing at is the fucking craziness. Yeah. I'm thinking it was normal. I'm thinking it was normal. You know, my story's my story. Love me or hate me is what it is. Exactly, man. I'm totally the opposite now. Do you know what I mean? Lesson revolve got a story in the thing. It has cream sales. But we'll touch on all the change and the things that I'm doing now. But sometimes, if you don't laugh, you'll cry. I mean, it never ended up pretty. I mean, you know, I've got pals now that are doing 25 rex, 30 rex, 20 years. Yeah. And a lot of my friends end up with big, big lumps of bird. Generation under us. I mean, you look at... You've only got to look under us. We looked up to the ones above us and the ones below us looked up to us and look at their story. Yeah. You know, you've got from my area like the Lee Murrays and a formidable fellow, you know. Lovely lad. I've known since he was disire. Hard as fucking nails. Game as fuck. Fucking UFC fighter and everything. And, you know, he ends up getting 25 years. And it's fucking tragic. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's the majority of people who come on the podcast say they're a product of the environment as well. Very much so. And you tend to see there is a kind of link between abuse or bullying. Oh, well, let me tell you something about bullying. The biggest bullies in my area when I was a kid was the fucking old bill. It was the police, you know. I don't hate the police now. I respect them. We need them. I don't interact. I don't have any dealings with them because I live a lower body knife. Mm-hmm. But as a kid, they were fucking bastards. We used to have anyone who was from my age. I'm nearly 50 now. We had the SPG, which was the special patrol group. They were like a tactical support unit. They used to come onto the estates in our area. Vans full of them. Full of them. Like a van with 10, 12 coppers in them. Oh, and they used to give you an idea and all they had dragged you. I mean, my own experience, they nearly killed me one night. They arrested me one night at a petrol station. I don't fuck all wrong. They dragged me out of a car, snatched a petrol pump out of me and they put their foot on my back all the way back to the police station. I couldn't breathe. I was passing out in the back of the van. It was funny to them. Yeah. So that's where the hate and rage can come to us. I thought it was a police screws. Fucking scared of them when I was a kid. We all were. We were scared of them because they wouldn't just... It wasn't, you know, they could arrest you and charge you and do it. Who are you gonna fucking complain to? The police. You know, this is in the days when I was criminally active when I was young. This is in the days before taped interviews and cameras and all that sort of stuff. Everything was done. They used to write it down. Piece of paper. Yeah. And we had this saying, anyone from my year will tell you verbal what they would do is fucking write things. You know. And the older criminals in our area used to say if you ever get to... Never sign a statement. But they had signed it for you. But they said if you ever do put MUD and it means made under duress, like, I don't know if we thought it was these international fucking terrorists or something. But many a time when I was arrested, when I was young, I was like, I didn't fucking say that. I didn't say that. I didn't say that. Like, I admitted to doing this and doing that and I said this and I fucking said that. You know, that pre-prepared statement. Do you know what I mean? When you get out of jail after your first sentence, after your, was it four, five, three and a half? Yeah. Was your life like then? Did you go straight back into crime? Well... Do you know what? I went into the smuggling world then but I tried to go straight. I did. I'd be lying if I said then because I don't think, you know, criminality and crime and all. Let's say you see people and you say, oh, he's a criminal. You can write him off wherever. I don't believe anyone's fucking truly criminal. I believe if someone's earning 10 grand a week doing crime, you'd think, you know what this meant. But what if you could say to them, I'd give 10 grand a week to do something legal. I'm sure they'd pick the legal option. Do you see what I'm saying? I did try. But the trouble is once you're labelled, once you're in that mix, it's against you. You know, society doesn't forgive. It's based on fucking retribution. We all like to say people get out of prison, give them a second chance on whatever else. Go to prison and get out and see how many chances you get. So you started getting down to smuggling, Rick? I did, yeah. From people I'd met in jail. I've always been very good with people. And the one thing I'm not is fucking dumb. I'm not stupid. And I'm a staunch as they come. My mouth's shut. I don't blag and all that sort of stuff. What were you smuggling here? Yeah, at the time. No, at the time, cannabis. Yeah, this was in the 90s. We were smuggling cannabis. From abroad? Yeah, Spain. Yeah, they were bringing it up from Spain. It was coming down from Holland as well, into France. It was coming back via daytrippers and whatever else. My job, I used to go out. There was a situation where we'd have the Dutch would bring it down into France. And one of us would go to meet the Dutch, take it from the Dutch and give it to the daytripper, because you never wanted the two to meet. Never wanted the two to meet. The Dutch, in my experience, don't trust them. They're iffy fuckers. MI5 and all them people and all these security servers and all that, that is where they operate. That's where all their snitches are out there. But anyway, car long story short. So he would never meet the daytripper. And this was at the time when a lot of European football matches were on and whatever else. And it was a smuggler's fucking paradise. The people I worked with had the best roots. What customs officer wants... There's 10 coaches of English fans coming through at the pool. What customs officer wants to get a load of pissed-up English fans off on the dock and start searching them? It's getting them fuckers through. So we'd have a day... The people I worked with would have people coming over either as daytrippers or coming over as football fans. I would have met the Dutch a few days before. I'd be plotting in an hotel. I'll meet them at the match, give them the bags that go on the coach. You just sling them on them. If it come on top on the coach, worst thing that's gonna happen... How many kilo? 30 at time, 40 at time, 50 at time. When we'd done the runs on the ribs, because we'd done that as well, actually across the channel on ribs, it was bigger quantities. Have I get caught? I never know, but someone who I worked with did through stupidity. Someone in Glasgow used to do the hash runs, but they used to take the school kids over. I know people, look, it's despicable. It's like the money involved. They used to take the school kids, and you're talking hundreds of kilos. I've done it on old people. I was on someone's bit in Glasgow. I'm not making it right. If there ends, you go to... To make a crust and the people who you use is next level shit. I mean, the crew I worked with at the time, I'm not giving it... I'm the big fucking mighty organiser. I wasn't. I was a pivotal player and played the role, but I was only a soldier. I wasn't the Mr Beaks, the big brains. The people I worked with were very successful. They knew what the fuck they were doing. Did you get caught for that? No. I got caught. I eventually got caught and got 10 year for smoking people. What kind of people? Refugees. Well, yeah, this is in the days. I mean, this was 99, 2,000. I think I got nicked in 2,000. This is before the days of the open borders and whatever. The Russians wanted to preempt it. The Russians had broken up into all the little states, and it was Georgia. You had Georgia, the Kosovo, all these places, Serbia and all these. There's been wars out there and everything. They wanted to preempt it. It was people knew that eventually they'd be allowed in anyway, but at the time they wasn't. So the people I worked with, the gangs that they were working with out there, they were highly organised firms, all throughout the continent, and we ended up involved with them and bringing people into the UK. So you went from bank robbery, smuggling drugs to smuggling people, and you got a 10 for that? Yeah, it's fucking crazy. So what was your 10 like? Where did you go? At first, I didn't like it because between me and you, I'm actually the first person in this country to be banned from holding a British passport. No, the second. The first one before me was a fella called Perry Wacker. Perry Wacker, he was a Dutchman and what happened is he had 52 people in a lorry and they all died in there, I don't know if you remember. And he got banned from holding a passport and I got banned as well for holding a passport because this was when people smuggled and first died. You know, I didn't really want to get involved with people smuggling, I wasn't a willing participant. There's a lot of reasons why I'd done what I'd done and I was sort of, I was duped into doing it and I only ever done it at once and I got caught when I fucking done it. But like I say, I was actually arrested in France. I didn't commit an offence in Great Britain. I should have been tried, I should have been arrested in France. But because it was this new big thing that's people smuggling and Britain had realised what a security threat it was for the country, they sent a team of customs over to Coquel in France. They extradited you? What they'd done is they'd duped me and said we need to take you to hospital to make sure you're fit to be questioned and they drove me over into the English control zone. And charged you? They said you're now under arrest, drove me back to England. Did they have a want for that? It was totally illegal. Every move they fucking done was illegal. Technically I was kidnapped by British customs and brought back to the UK because of the people smuggling and it's almost such a big thing and they didn't want it to be... A new trend? Exactly. So they wanted to give deterrent sentences or whatever else. But what happened to me is when I got, and this goes on to how I became British most wanted man, when I was arrested, it was the people I'd worked for. I was fucking pissed. I'd been stitched up basically, set up because this wasn't a firm I usually worked with. I'd been put into a car long story short. And I thought fuck this, I need to go and sort this out. So they took me to Folkestone Court a week later. I was remanded in the custody obviously. I was in Canterbury prison and I was taken to Folkestone Magistrates Court. Now Folkestone Magistrates Court was a high security court believe it or not because of the... If you get nicked for smuggling in some of these cases people get nicked at the pulse, Dover folks and whatever. Some of them are nicked with big fuck off parcels and some of them are like major whatever. So it's a high security court. I thought, well, how the fuck am I going to get out of here? So I worked out a plan. I thought the only way I'm going to get out is I need to make some sort of weapon that's intimidating enough. And at the time I thought, well, I'll get a pen. So I got a big pen, a paper clip, and I filled it up with black current jam. And I took the prison officer hostage in the courtroom and said, if I don't open the doors, I'm going to inject him. So they opened all the doors. So at the time they opened the doors and let me go. When I eventually got arrested three months later I was done for 23 false imprisonments including the fucking judge. The box set. Madness. What sentence did you get? The 10? I got another three year consecutive for that. You got 13? Yeah, another three years on top for that. Where did you go to when you were on the run? Do you know what? I'd like to say, yeah, I went to Spain and I had a big pot of money and all that. I ended up going back to the area where I knew best. Sometimes you're better off hiding under their nose and you go back to where you know best. I wasn't in the best place mentally at the time. I got into that. I was using drugs at the time. I was using cocaine and whatever else. I think I'd reach a crossroads. I'd had enough of the crime and everything. I think that was the first sort of struggle with me where I was struggling mentally and I didn't understand depression and things like that at the time. But I was struggling mentally because the act of escaping, even after I'd done it, after I'd escaped I broke out of the cult. There was no one waiting for me outside on a motorbike to whiz me away or anything like that. I went down the beach, Folkestone Beach and I see the police helicopter flying about looking for me or whatever else. I saw a woman with a baby and I thought, I'll just stop and I'll lie down and talk to her or whatever so they've obviously just... And then three hours later I bunked a train back to fucking Woolwich and ended up in a fucking... a drug dealer's house saying, fucking hell, I've just exclaimed and he's going, yeah, shut up, you fucking idiot. And then the six o'clock news comes on police are looking for this man, do not approach all these bollocks and that weren't nice, you know, to see that. I think that was that at home. And then obviously I armed police at my mum's looking for me. I go, man, my ex-partner's looking for me. Fucking everyone looking for me. You know what I mean? It wasn't nice. That's the hard thing when the corpors tailor-laze the family. Oh, it's nothing nice about being on the run. I was on the run for like about four and a half months before they eventually called me. Where did they catch you? In my home area. Did you ever think about doing another ton and getting to fuck? Listen, at the time, I knew I was fucked. I knew the minute I was nicked, I was in a lot of trouble. I knew, you know, I'm not a stupid man. Potentially a lifer. Yeah, most definitely. With my record as well, at the time I had a conviction of firearms, section 18 and whatever else. But when I got caught, it was almost a relief, but when I was on the run, the fear, you know, they're going to shoot me. They're going to shoot me. That's what I was thinking, because I had a conviction of firearms. Anyone who's been arrested of firearms will tell you that when you're arrested for firearms, you have this marker against you. It's like even to this day, if a police car comes up behind my vehicle and my name comes up, they won't stop me, not one car. Before they pull me over, there'll be three or four cars. Because of the... The danger. What was your 13 leak? What jail did you go to? Well, most of it high security. Yeah, and I'm not saying that, but ego effect, but obviously because of the escape and whatever else. Most of it was in high security. I was up in the dispersal system, long light in, and yeah, that was... In Belmarsh? I was in Belmarsh, yeah. In Bronson? I've been in Bronson twice. How about Charlie? Do you know what he's got? Actually, I've seen... He's getting out next year. I was in the block with him, I was in the seg with him, because I used to be a little fucker in jail. You know, I used to think it was a laugh and plan over there. In 1995, I was in the seg with him in higher down, and I got to know him then. I just speak to him through the wall. He used to have his exercise, and he'd go out and just train like a lion. Do you know what he's... What I've said about Charlie, he's fucking releasing him. Is it next year? He got his appeal today? Who would you rather have living next door to you? Charlie Bronson or a fucking... Or a child killer, and the reality of it is, there's child killers that have served the fucking call for it. He's no danger to anyone. He'll go on to be a celebrity or whatever else. He's a danger to them. Charlie doesn't assault prisoners or anything. He's actually a really nice guy. Has it reformed now? Pardon? Has it reformed then? It's not for me to say, you know. I wouldn't want to wind him up. Is he a big boy? He's a strong man. He's a very strong man. He's a circus strong man, isn't he, Charlie? He's a circus strong man. I wrote to him. When my book came out, I wrote to him and said to him, and he was kind enough. In my book, he'd done me a drawing, and he said, box smart, Ray. You've done good. And that meant a lot. Because, you know, I'd be patronising the sound that he feels. You know, I've done a lot of SEG myself. I've done some high-security gels and very high-security conditions. But you can't even comprehend what it must be like to be in the SEG as long as he's been there. You know, you can't even comprehend it. And he's not the only one. There's a lot of others in there that you don't hear about because they've not got the celebrity status. You know, like Tony Steele and Bob Maltzley and people like that. They've been in the SEG 30 odd years. Who are they? Well, Bob Maltzley. I was in the long line in SEG with him. He killed three people in jail, Bob Maltzley. He killed three sex offenders up in Wakefield jail, and he came out on the wing Monday. He killed one in Broadmoor, and then he was in Wakefield, and he came out one morning and said to the prison officers, there were two off this morning, and they just looked at him and thought, what are you doing? He'd killed them both and put them under their beds. But he's been in segregation now for 35 years, you know? You don't hear about these things. Who is that? I don't know when you mentioned that. Tony Steele. Tony Steele's from my area, from Woolwich. I remember Tony as a kid, and Tony got nicked for, I think he went away for nicking a milk float or something crazy like that. And that was about 25 years ago. He's been in prison ever since all for crimes committed in prison. Assaults on prison officers and whatever else, and he'd get 10 years, and I think he got life for assaulting prison officers or whatever. And they threw him off the roof in Wakemoor. Prison officers threw him off the roof. He managed to get up on the roof, and the prison officers grabbed him wherever. I can't say they threw him off, but people I spoke to said they fucking threw him off. They said he jumped, but he survived it, but he's been in the sex for years. So how was that sentence? When did you decide to go to Grendan? Well, what happened, you know... I'm coming across I've been in the nutter here, but I fucking love it. Enjoy it. What happened? In 2002, I was in Longline, and I did that wall, you know, where they say... Just sick of that leaf? Constance becomes a fifth pursuer. And the life I'd lived, you know, I'd lived that fucking life, you know, I don't talk bollocks, you know, I'd lived it, seen it, done it. There's things I would never talk about, but I'd lived it, seen it, done it in more ways than one. And I'd reached that road, and I went to therapy in Dovegate. You know, they took me off the pie list and I went up to Dovegate. I thought, right, I'm going to give it a go, because they half sold it to me. And that was all the way up in New Toxic. But the thing was, it's too far away, and I'm a Londoner through and through, and they've stuck me in this jail right up north. There was two fellas on the wing who, in my eyes at the time, were fucking no good. One of them was, you know, half a wrongan, like one of the other lot. He'd come out, we was doing this group thing, and he said he'd been flashing the school kids or something. And then I had a little scam up there of another fella. We were getting bits sent in the post. Nick, a few quid, like you're doing in jail, trying to make it a bit better for yourself. And this other one grasps us up, so one day I thought, right, that's it, they've got to go. And at lunchtime, I'd done the pair of them with a honey jar. So I got Nick for two bad section 18s when I was in, this is the police are not all bad. Because what happened? I got Nick for these two section 18s and Darbyshire police come to arrest me, obviously. You know, I'm already doing 13-year, two section 18s, my record. Get life off or get another big lump of bird. The cop has come into the sector to interview me and he's looked out the door like that and he's gone, we know they were wrongans. He went, just say he went to it, you know, and you stuck your arm up in the honey jar. And he said, I'm happy with that. I went, yeah, that's what happened. He went, sweet, you won't hear from us again. And I never fucking did. So you could have got a life off of that? Got life. And they knew one of them was in a fucking flesh and not something else. And the other one was fucking no good. I never know what he was in for. But the old Bill knew they were no good. They knew it's a prison assault. They don't give a shit. You know, in prison, you can kill each other as long as you don't kill us. That's their philosophy. And I'll go into that with a prison, especially the ice security prisons. But yeah, they sort of went, but then the downside of that was obviously I was made the ice security again, back to long line. Now, when I was in long line, they put me straight back into segregation because of me assaults on whatever else. I think you're a danger to other people. And they was worried about my mental health at the time as well because of the outburst and whatever. And because of my escape, when you escape and use them extreme methods, not that they consider you dangerous. They think you're fucking off your head. And in some senses they were, off their head, people can be quite dangerous. But a kind of long story short, when I was in the segregation, when you're in the SEGs in ice security jails, most jails are called segregation. When you're in the high security jails, they're called special care and control units. They change the name to make it sound a bit more PC. But what that means is you have to be assessed by psychologists and psychiatrists. Every dispersal prisoner does. There's only six maximum security prisons in the country. And when you're in them, you get assessed by psychiatrists and psychologists. You go one route. You either progress through the system, or if they think you're too dangerous, you ain't going nowhere. The options for me were the severe and dangerous personality unit at Whitemore because they thought I was dangerous or go back into therapy and give it another go. The psychiatrist tapped a pen on the table top. He said, one signature. And I can send you to Broadmore. And you know what? That fucking scared me because I knew he weren't joking because I'd seen it happen. I'd seen people go. Psychiatrists. Two psychiatrists go, yet we think he needs his criminally whatever he needs. He's a dangerous society. You're off to Broadmore. And if you go to somewhere like that, you ain't coming out to your old. It's not like you go there and have six months or whatever. You go there, you're fucking lost. Or they will chemically lobotomy. They'll get like the one flu over the cookies. They'll just keep filling you up with psychotropic meds till you're off your fucking head. And you'll want to stay there. You won't want to go anywhere. If you used to go there and walk around the case, there's people who've been there 35, 40 years. There's a fella in there. I read about it a few years ago. He burnt a haystack as a kid. He's been in there 45 fucking years. That's what you're up against. That's their control measure. You're going in there saying and coming out and saying? Or dead. Or dead. Did that scale you then? Most definitely. Because I was sane. But at the same time, there was something wrong with me. I didn't know what it was. I believe what's always been wrong with me is like addiction and that stuff. But also, I'll go into it later because I'm quite open about mental health. I was diagnosed as being bipolar further down the line. But yeah, that was my options. And then I thought, you know what, all I knew about Grendan, it's like Terry Ellis says so beautifully. Terry's book's fantastic. And when he says about it's full of wrongs and full of beast. Well, at the time, I was quite fortunate because the new one had opened in Dovegate. The numbers had gone right down in Grendan. So what they were trying to do was empty the dispersals out of prisoners. They go, right, well, you want to go there. And so they started taking arm robbers and normal career criminals and whatever else. So when I went there, you know, I was very fortunate that there was people I already knew from the system. Other people had gone from the dispersal system. Three, two other fellows. So he came from Long Lighting with me who were both normal stand-up, since both life was both in for murder. But what I would call my own, like, decent criminals. All right, they were in Nick for Murder. That's their story. Who was it then? Go on now. At first. A tough decision for you. Most definitely. Most definitely. Breaking down the ethos and the barriers and all that stuff. But I was very fortunate, you know, because people know me and know what I'm about. People, you know, I'm not going to claim to be big gang sort of Britain's, like, London's biggest feared fucking gang. Who fucking wants to be? Yeah. But what I am is quite well known in the system. Well, I was back then, and I was well known for probably all the wrong reasons, but amongst my own for the right reasons for being staunch, for standing up with people, for standing firm with people, for standing tall, and standing up to a furry, which I've done on numerous occasions. You know, I hurt my stripes more than once. You know what I mean? And so I was known for being staunch. So I had to, you know, water finds its own level, like attracts like. So whenever I've been in prison, especially in high security estates, I've attracted the best of the best. And I'm friendly with some of the, what you would call the elite of the Britain's criminal underworld or wherever. People that you read about wherever. I'm very friendly with a lot of them people. And certain people, I love them, I respect dearly, like Kevin Lane and people like that in long line. I went and said to them, look, I'm thinking about going to this therapy and all that. And do you know what? In prison, you make friendships, you forge friendships, you know? If you're a fraud, you get found out. And people like that are so stoned that they said to me, you know what, mate? It's got to be better than here. It's the best movie. And when you hear it from people like that, like proper stoned people, we sort of go, I'll give it a go. You go to fucking Wankers, they all go, it's all full of fucking wrongers, full of nuns, it's full of this, full of that. I have them absolute cunts themselves. Do you know what I mean? A sensible person, a true friend will tell you the truth. And say, do what's best for you. Because Grendan's known as one of the most evilest prisons for the prisoners with child killers, child rapists, bad people. But from no razor smith who's been on it, changed his life, Terry Ellis been there, changed his life, it takes courage and respect for anybody that admit they've got a problem and potentially this is a last chance to make changes. Part of the reason why I love racist smith so much is I attribute racist smith to half-saving my life. And another person I'd like to mention, just briefly, Louis Birch, God bless his soul. Who's he? Louis was prolific armed robber, prolific security robber and all that in the 80s and 90s. He died recently. But when I first went to Grendan, Louis Birch was there. And I knew Louis from Woolwich. Louis was old school, it was hardcore as they come. And razor, razor turned up from Whitemore. The same fucking day I turned up from Longlartin. And I knew razor, because I'd been with razor in the 90s. I knew he was starting his riot and whereabouts. But razors, as staunch as they come, proper, I've been in Bellmaster with razors. He's a staunch fucking prisoner. And the minute I see him there and another fellow, Freddie Lahn, and the two fellows that I come with from Longlartin, I was already quite palliative with decent things. We had our own little crew. And our take on it was, fuck them, we're here for us. And we all carried each other through it. And I was there for three years. It was a fucking tough thing. Who was it working on yourself, getting therapy, psychology? I would say, for me, best thing I ever done. Best thing I ever done. Not easy. It's an ongoing process. I didn't come out of there a closed book, but I started to break down the barriers. There was, you know, when I went there, it was us and them. Hated screws, hated authority. Lot of experience of prison brutality and all that stuff. I'd been on the receiving end of it. I'd witnessed it, the injustice of it, or whatever. The officers there with different, you know, Joe Chapman, Paul Johnson, you know, these people there, dedicated, dedicated to helping us change our life for us and to fucking stop creating victims. And they made us see it, challenged us, asked us questions and told us things that we'd never encountered before. My way of dealing with everything was attack. Here's a classic example. I'd been there three months. Someone sent me in a C.D. And I really wanted this C.D. like a kid. I really wanted a C.D. So I've gone up reception to get this C.D. And the prison officer behind the counter said, you can't have it. You're not allowed to miss a pre-eval item or whatever. I thought, first thing I've done, I've jumped the counter to attack him, you know. And Paul Johnson grabbed me, pulled me back, pinned me up against the wall. Rather than trying to hit me and bundle me or bend me up to the block, he's gone, where are you now? Where are you? And I was like, what do you mean? Where fucking are you now? Meaning, where are you mentally? And they brought me back to childhood. When I was a kid and, you know, I'm lost and not having things as a kid and all this stuff. It's just, it's mad how it fucking works. Getting neglected, feeling a bit abandonment issues. And that was your defence mechanism, getting angry. Attack. Yeah. Attack. And you identified all that while in there. What was it like, your first therapy session, being open? Did you talk about your bullying and stuff? Was that the first? Not really. Did you ever spoke about it? No, it's a process. It takes time. It takes time. I was more like, listen, bit cautious. We'd have our own little therapy sessions. Me, Razer and Freddie and that. We'd have our own little talks in the cell. Most of the time it'd be that fucking non-stack. It's that way. The usual prison stuff. But that becomes tiring. It's like when you're in prison, everyone wants to talk about fucking crime. Crime's fucking boring. Let's talk about something else. Everyone wants to talk about football. Fuck football. They're faggots. You know, I want to... You know what I mean? It's... Yeah, so we used to do our own little therapy sessions. It might sound mad, but we were encouraged to do that. You know, you're opening... You're starting to open up in a way you never did before. How did your hand have been roomed over there? The serial fucking evilness of some of those prisoners? Well, the beauty of it, and I'm not just saying this, there wasn't that many on our wing. And the reason there wasn't that many on our wing is because there was so many... There were so many hardcore people like myself and Ray, Fred and Robert. Yeah, they was trying to... Let's see if this works for this mob now, rather than just the beast. Yeah, that's still bad, but I'm talking about with the child killers. They're fucking evil, evil people. So they were kind of kept away from you? They kept them away from us because they knew... Shack could kick off. Well, they would feel too intimidated to do their work. You know, the one thing I will say about them people is this. If they're there for the right reason and they do the work on themself, that they don't go out and create another victim, full respect to them. Full respect to them. And I'm sure there's been many success cases. If they're there working in their ticket, they got found out. Because you can't kid a kid out. And the thing about people like myself and Ray, people who have grown up in prisons and done so much birdies, we can see straight through the bullshit and cut straight through the bullshit. So we give a lot of them an odd time. But in doing that, I think we played our own little bit in helping them rehabilitate and more we didn't. But you get an understanding. And the thing is, especially with what I will say about a lot of these people, not saying about rape, murderers, whatever, the amount of them, when you actually hear their stories and why they're the way they are, it's fucking horrific. What some of these people have been through themselves, you know, they were put into care homes as kids, put into care homes by the state to be looked after and protected and where else. And they were fucking nonce themselves and abused and passed from care home to care home to care home, abused, abused, abused, abused. That was all they fucking knew. So when some of them, believe me, I'm not making excuses for them, but when some of them went on to be like that themselves, you sort of go, well, did we fail them as a society? In some cases, yes. Scared of you? Scared of you fucking thinkman? No one's boomed like that all day. That's what I'm trying to say. It's like, I can't say, oh, I went out committing robberies and putting guns in people's faces. That makes me in some way better. I would never harm a woman or child intentionally. You know, that sort of stuff sickens me and disgusts me. But I was so at a place in myself where I wanted to fucking change and have some sort of quality of life myself and have a decent life beyond jail, that I was willing to tolerate and to a degree. Not get palli with anything like that, but not attack them. You thought it'd be more understanding. Everybody's stories and understanding the background. I would attack them like that in the past. It's your duty in jail. Is that the work in grinding that changes your mindset to look at things differently? Well, it changes your mindset and everything's a deflection. The greatest, you know, if someone, if you're fucking a bad person yourself, you'll pick out the badness in others if you're a good person, you'll find the good in others. So, eventually, what Brendan done for me is after a few months of being there, once we'd exhausted all that ease of wrong and ease of this bollocks, you start to look at yourself. And that's when it became real. And that's when some people either stick it out or some people go, and there's many times I wanted to flee, many times I wanted to run, but I'd have like Big Brother Razor or someone say, stick it out. Come on, stick it out. We're all in this. Come on, stick it out. And then we pulled each other through, you know? The three years that you were there, when you were going through all your therapy sessions, did you grow a conscience and think about all the victims, like the robberies and stuff like that? 100%. Does that become sad? Was there a lot of tears? I'd be lying. I'd be lying if I said I'm a weebber. And you know why? Because I'm a thinker, you know? My pain has always been... Overthinking. I have a think stuff and whatever else. Did I get in touch with difficult emotions? Yes. Do I feel sorrow, pity, sadness or the victims I've created? Most definitely. But it doesn't come out with tears for me. The way it came out with me is in self-destruction. Drug abuse. Beating myself up. Putting myself in that way of life in the fucking first place. Crime, criminality, especially violent crime is a form of self-arm. You might think you're arming someone else, but hurt people hurt people. And that's my experience. And it took therapy for me to actually understand and realise that, you know? And since I've made my own choice, I don't hurt people today. Do you know what I mean? Because I understand if I'm feeling that way, it's because I'm fucking hurting. You know? For whatever else. Any other... Yeah, I think harming others is a self-arming. I also think taking drugs is self-arming. 100%. It's kind of... Someone had someone on my show and he says they didn't want to live, but they didn't want to die. They just didn't know where they were. So the drugs was just pure escape, everything. Were you taking drugs in the jail before grinding? I had a period, but then I had a period in long-larting where in long-larting, it really frowned upon. When you ran on a wing with proper sensible fellas, they weren't really into the drugs. It's more the bows. And what they do in... In the dispersal system, what the screws do, it's a control measure. Listen, there's buds in there, got fuckled to those. They're doing life sentences, 30 rex salts, you know? They want to have a bows. The screws will let them, as long as you don't beat us up and you can have it. But once people start playing up, what they do is they turn it into a desert. They come in, they spend the center square, search squads in, nick everyone's bows. That pisses off the faces and the daddies and the wingwravers. You fucking idiots playing up and all that. They've come and fucking nicked all our bows. So it's a bit of we'll give and take. You know what I mean? It's a bit of a control measure. So in the dispersals, people mainly drink. And I did drink, but drink makes me, drink turns me into a nasty fucker. You know, I get involved in all sorts of, I ain't drunk for years, but, yeah, drink. Yeah, I'll get ready. Push over the edge. Oh, yeah. Well, it did then because I was emotionally very damaged, very scarred. I hadn't done any therapeutic work on myself. So I'd have a booze and it'd be less of a row and I'd want to start attacking staff or something stupid. What deal were you pleasant right now? No, I've never been fortunate enough to be little boy. But if I could have caused one, I probably would have done. No, I've never been involved in any riots or protests with anyone else because I don't want to drag anyone into my boss. Let me tell you something about prison riots. Prison riots go like this. Mr. fucking whatever, he's got the fucking, he gets his fucking boys and then he sits back, you know, I'm not the one going to take the flag, you poor fuckers are. I'll stand up for my own sake but I'll take myself down. I ain't taking you down with me. I'm not going to ask you to come and battle this screw with me. If I had a problem with a screw, I'd go and put it on him myself because I'm staunch like that. See, after your three years at Grendan, was it your choice to go or how does it work? Well, what happened for me? You know, I've done so much extensive work there and I've really, really done well and the one thing I will say about Grendan I don't say this stuff for a fit, he go wherever. I actually, you know, got on a wall from the little chief justice at the time because what happened is towards my, I still had over three years left to stir when I was coming to the end of Grendan. I still, I weren't going home, you know what I mean, but what actually happened is I started a little project in the Minnicut and we started going out to schools and things with a prison officer. I used to go out and went out on four or five occasions with a prison officer, gave a talk to the, to the, to the students or whatever else about crime and it doesn't pay and about drugs and whatever else. I'd done that and all the time I was in therapy, you know, I'd started a degree as well in long line, you know, I studied, I'd done a degree in psychology at the Open University and I'd done that at the same time as I was doing therapy, believe it or not, I'd just go back to myself, do me a degree and whatever else and I was getting like past ones, you know, someone who'd never been, never been a school, it was just a fucking laugh. I left school with, not a single qualification, I think I left there with someone's bike on, nicked, but that was my qualification but you know, I'd left Brendan, you know, I was just a year from getting my degree and everything and two officers put me up for an award and I got an award from the Lord Chief Justice which is, it's in me, I included it in my book if I remember rightly. I think I did. Yeah, where I got an award there you go, look. Yeah. There's a special recognition to the process rehabilitation. Rehabilitation. Yeah, congratulations, man. Well, for you. That was for like the work I put in. Does that make you feel good? You know what, it felt nice. Is that the first thing you'd ever felt proud of? Which was natural. I'd got the education bag when I started studying and I was getting my marks and grades, I was like, fucking brilliant and I discovered that I could write, you know, I couldn't, I don't think I'd ever, I'd read a few letters, that was it. You know, as you know, I went into a write a book but I discovered I could write. It did feel nice. It felt like in some ways I was being accepted and I turned in a corner. I think when I first started grinding and I thought, I'll just keep up the act and it'd just be an act and I'll just act my way through but it became a point when it became very real, like to fight or fly and it actually did start to work for me and by the time I left there I actually fucking believed wholeheartedly in the process of rehabilitation and I actually started to believe that it was possible for me because my thinking had started to change and what they'd done for me, they were absolutely fantastic. They put a great care package together for me to try and support me to further it and I went to a prison in Richmond, Surrey. It's not there no more and I know a great thing the prison system's done has closed all the good resettlement prisons and it was what's called a resettlement prison and I went there for two, two and a bit years and for the last 13, 14 month of my sentence I was out working Monday to Friday I used to go out I had a job at a scaffold firm and I used to go to work and come back to the prison of a night time and it had been my first experience really of holding down a job working, getting a bit of money learning to budget and all that stuff it was phenomenal the way it all sort of mapped out you know it was really good. How much do you think you spent from the ages of 16 until you got out of prison? How much do you think money you spent over the years from drugs squandering that party lifestyle millions? I wouldn't say millions I've not had millions hundreds of thousands undoubtedly hundreds of thousands and it's scary to think that 20 years of your life for that money and now you're successful now and it's natural and you're doing it work but again if you never went through all this shit in your past you wouldn't be where you are today you wouldn't be where you are today you wouldn't be reading books I have more money today than whatever I did criminally it's fucking mad isn't it it's like I employ people you know I have my own business I own a scaffold company I employ people people are dependent on me I pay my fucking tax I've got an accountant I pay my tax the other day he was saying we'll defer the VAT payment again I said no no no just pay it I don't want it hanging over just pay it pay a night giving 10 grand at a taxman I walk into the bank today I walked into Barclays bank today and I've just bought a new lorry another lorry and I walked into Barclays today and I said I need three months to pay oh hello Mr Bishop whatever in the past I walked into a bank casing the joint I walk in there they call me Mr Bishop do you ever see me walking in a bank now do you still get do you ever get excited do you ever still case the joint look at cameras look at never it's different rules now you know it's you're gonna get caught no one can do robberies now without getting caught there's ANPR cameras everywhere there's the technology there's just fucking grasses everywhere though grass is everywhere and what's been the game changer is the poker I don't know if you know what poker is it's called the Proceeds of Crime Act oh yeah yeah yeah now they can just basically take everything off you take everything off you you know and that's that's the game changer I mean why you know you can go out and earn fucking millions of pounds doing whatever and they'll come and fucking take a lot one day do you think oh then that all comes stems down to the younger generation to be educated more because I always say as well even the even entrepreneurial skills from drug dealers they've got those skills to bestow on something else it's just it's all they know it's a product they've got and they're building a network most definitely but I think a lot of the youngsters today are being failed miserably by society they're being failed failed miserably by the well the ruling fucking elite you know have a look at I mean we was talking about it earlier the property prices in London and all that it's fucking unobtainable for these youngsters they can't afford to leave home they you know they they can't go and get you know a lot of them do I know but you know if you ain't got a bank a mum and dad and all that we've learnt no fucking lessons when I was a kid we got into crime because we were bad people we got into crime because there was not a lot of options for to survive and we were impoverished I'd be lying if I said if I said we weren't impoverished and there was no racism anything like that where I grew up you know some of my best friends were black we were all in the you know we were all fucking scumbags as far as as far as everyone else was concerned we were equally as fucking scummy but yeah it's nowadays it's you know I really feel sorry for a lot of the youngsters but I'm not making excuses for them a lot of them are little fucking savages running around with knives and everything like that all gangsters and it's all something to be proud of and it ain't but they don't know no fucking difference because you've been there yourself you know what it's like I've been there, it's sad, it's tragic yeah what was it like then coming out were you scared coming out or did you think I've fully changed I'm going to give it a go but you probably say that every time you've come out nice I knew it was going to be hard I knew it was going to be hard when I come out did you have a plan or anything well like the great John Lennon one said life is something that happens when you're busy making other plans you know I came out and I had all these wonderful plans and I met a bird and it all went fucking wrong I met a woman it all went fucking wrong my plans went out the window in a short period of time but even though I did have a couple of hiccups along the way my mate explains it beautifully you know I'd like to say I came out of Grendan I've done fantastic I've done well no I actually fucking in the time I came I actually ended up getting Nick for another two he's another fire I'm charged with very lucky I wasn't lifed off after Grendan after Grendan after you fought but you changed let me save myself for you what actually happened is I had a bit of a breakdown and it was because I was suffering from something called bipolar and I never knew anything about it I'd always suffer from depression as a kid I used to get anxiety attacks and things like that I was diagnosed with being bipolar and I went a bit off my head and I went on this stupid mad robbery spree for like three days got about six or seven grand or something at the time that was what the sum total of these robberies come to I had more than that in the fucking bank and even the judge could see this was it was clear insanity and I was very lucky so after I came out of Grendan I got a what's called a EPP sentence I got a five EPP which is at the end of that five year I had a extended public protection where I was a mapper which is multi agency public protection all that rubbish and I had to have all these stringing conditions on me when I got out to make sure I wasn't afraid but that was the breaking point when I went back away after having the experience of Grendan and having a little experience of freedom and going back away again ending up in Wormwood Scrubs Peter Brab being moved around the system again because of me record procedure and whatever but then going you know what it kicked in all what I'd learnt in Grendan kicked in and I've been out of jail now for over five years and in the five years I've been out I've wrote more autobiography I started my scaffold company I've stayed drug free most importantly crime free you know I choose my company wisely I give back to society I give talks I go to schools universities I've been in a grammar school recently I attend recovery meetings or whatever else my life has gone full circle it's almost like I don't recognise the man I once was but I don't we were talking about this when we I don't take that for granted you know I have to take action every day because the demons are always there but for today they're in check today's a good day and that's that's the beauty of life the fact that you've been through fucking hell you've caused hell yeah but it all stems again from being bullied then trying to make a name for yourself getting power trying to get a bit of money and then the drug abuse we're searching for all that stuff externally and the fact that you went through Grendan seeing you come out after your three years in Grendan after your big sentence did you go back on the drugs again I did after a period I had a relapse that was like a precursor but I think the mental health stuff happened before I picked up something was not right and what happened is I was actually doing quite well when I came out financially I was doing okay I was in scaffolding I was doing quite well and I started to go a little bit off key a little bit something weren't right and I always knew something weren't right but no one ever identified that no one ever picked up on it and it was only during that last sentence that I'd done that when I was assessed again by Home Office Psychiatrists again because initially what happened when I was arrested by the firearms offences and whatever and like I said to you I was downstairs in that flat I'd actually took someone hostage one of my mates for some unknown reason I was out of my nut I took him hostage armed police stormed the flat to get him out and they weren't going to shoot me they told me that afterwards but because of the nature of that crime again I had to be assessed by psychiatrists to see if I was even fit to plead when I was arrested because they who did you not get leave because the psychiatrist saved me psychiatric reports saved me after I'd been arrested for that because they said I was suffering from a condition called bipolar which I now I take medication for every night I take a tablet it just keeps me stops me going too high or too low it just keeps me sort of there I had a lot of counselling when I was doing that sentence when I was doing that the five EPP a lot of therapy and above all stayed drug free myself because if you if you're prone to anything men or anything like that which everyone is I talk about mental illness openly because every single person on this planet will suffer at one point in their life it'll be just a bit mild depression or whatever but if you take substances and things and you're a little bit nuts already you know it ain't fucking rocket science is it things over the edge thick plus thick equals thick through all that then and then you've made a great transition the last five years to make the changes get a business running how are you feeling then now do you still have negative thoughts do you still have moments you know what I feel I feel like a new man I feel like a new man my great you know financially I'm okay I've got my own my business and whatever else and I've got some good friends in my life people who care about me and people I care about I'm with a lovely woman I've got my two little shits two dogs that mean the world to me I've got my children in my life I've got a step-daughter who's absolutely I enjoy love her to bits so I've got the family life the stability you know and my partners worse than any prison officer you know when there's bang up in my ass there's bang up you know I mean like yeah see it's like being a nice security prison sometimes we're going with yeah she's lovely I love her to bits but I've got that stability that home life the Nelson Mandela said it didn't he the greatest things in life may not always be free but the greatest things in life are being free you know and for me that is so true you know I'm free today I'd rather be if I lost everything tomorrow as long as I'm clean as long as I'm out here I've got a chance in there got no chance and for me the stakes are very high very real I'm not the sort of fella that goes out and goes out and goes and gets arrested and gets free month for six weeks and then comes out yeah I'll beat his bag his gangster on it I get nicked it's very real I'm going away for a long fucking period of time probably a lot of it's going to be in segregations or next time they'll nut me off they'll send me to one of the places where I won't get out because you're at the end of the road what more can they do here do you have anyone in contact with like social workers you still haven't licensed or anything never I'm a free man for the first time two years ago I was released finally by the English probation system or whatever else first time for over 30 years I never had I never had no nothing hanging on the other end no constraints no bit of elastic no nothing I'm even allowed to have a British passport again I was banned from everyone for 10 years if your room's at last 10 you went in the hall with her oh fuck you know I went to the Isle of Wight last year that was nice was that the first time you've been here well yeah I mean I've probably I've been the length from Britain to country but only in jail I've seen it all on a sweat box but I'm going to take my you know the reality of it is I can afford to go anywhere I want today you know I'm not being flashed but I can afford to go to a beautiful island paradise tomorrow and all I've got to do is get my passport now I've been allowed to have it for over two about two and a half years now I've been allowed to have a passport and I still ain't fucking applied for it does it scare you maybe go away again checks at fucking airport and you're going to get fucking red flag you'll break the computer mind once you fucking scan your passport I've said that to I've said that when we go through customs expect to pull they will pull me 100% yeah yeah yeah you'll be red flag 100% they'll pull me straight away they'll search any vehicle I'm in they'll search me what is the nature of people I'm probably going to have you know distractions I might even have to go and have an interview and all that and the reason why is because the nature of the offences yeah and because it's when you back then I was smuggling people into the country and I mean that's a terrible crime a bad crime but I got involved in it like through the back door I wasn't supposed to actually be smuggling people it was supposed to be drugs where I'm not making it right I know I walked into somebody else's observation and on the I think it was the people that they were working of on the continent and the reason I know is because I actually met them at a service station at a different part of France I never made any statement I made no statement no one ever got arrested with me I was done for being the ringleader they knew I would but when it came into court initially I was going to plead not guilty and plead duress say I was forced to do it or whatever drug debt the usual everyone knew would that have been a lesser sentence in France? oh yeah probably got three years in France yeah but what happened is I heard about this service station in one of the customs reports and then what they'd done is they'd done something called PII which is public immunity whatever with all their covert surveillance they refused to reveal their covert surveillance to my solicitor the only reason they could refuse to reveal their covert surveillance obviously there was via winter in there that we're not allowed to see grass perhaps I would say more likely and it goes on all the time that the actual crime was instigated in some way by infiltration by either police customs in Nepal MI5 NCIS one of these organisations they actually infiltrate these gangs and play pivotal roles to bring down the whole gang you know what I mean it's like you see on the films this goes on places that these shady world and whatever when the crimes are a bit organised that's what happens it's all fucking corrupt 100% so plans for the future then Ray you're doing well you're a free man you can get your passport I've got I mean I review a lot of books like you know I've just reviewed Terry's which is fantastic I've reviewed Linda Calvi's A Black Widow what a lovely woman Mel's a good friend of mine Linda's book fantastic oh Ray's a said to give his book a plug he's got a third where's his book coming out well he's got a 30 dozen coming out in August John Blake published it so that's the one oh it'd be the most you'll leave the link on this podcast for discussion for all of these that's great man he's gone to the podcast you know what Ray's a for me he's the best true crime all throughout there this one the 30 dozen if you want to know about Arm Robbery the making of Arm Robbery my own book coming out soon hopefully called Smuggler's Roulette I'll get you back when we'll talk about that definitely yeah a million percent Smuggler's Roulette it's about my three years in the smuggling I always knew when I wrote Outlaw I always knew I would have to delegate a whole book to it because there was so much that happened and so many tales and funny stories and I didn't want to when I wrote this book I wanted it to really carry a message to youngsters and I was trying to tell them there's nothing glamorous about crime and whatever and I'm filming something so I owed to the victims of my own actions and whatever to give them an understanding of why people do what they do and whatever and it's never okay to make a victim yeah a million percent man but you've got to live with that stuff but again you've got to understand that we are human we do make mistakes some crimes are more hard-hitting than others but again the beauty of life brother people can change your prime example nobody's a smith prime example Terry Ellis Billy Moore yeah well I've made a commitment to myself I fucked up the first half of my life and I'm going to do my damn best to try and make a good second yeah like I say you've got the pen to write your life yeah and it's not finished yet yeah the best years of your life are always ahead I always say that people need to believe that you are the creator of your destiny always say that you can change and one thing I would always say is anyone out there who's suffering from any mental health issues any drug addiction anything like that anyone out there who thinks crime anything like that who thinks there's no way out or whatever never give up hope and tap into the professional services or whatever else whatever offers out there tap into it because when I was young I didn't even know it fucking existed maybe if someone had grabbed me at young age and said look come and talk about things well maybe my life would have been different you know a poor girl the other day where I live 18 years old she jumped in front of a train that's heartbreaking sad and it's when I hear things like that today it tears me up inside you know I think you know get someone talk to someone don't suffer that's the best thing to do whether it's a friend the neighbour the postman if you talk to someone releasing that stress or pressure your dog are though talk to the fucking ceiling he's the only one that does before we finish up we must talk about your boxing as well street feats was it street feats what was that I mean I thought you know I had the boxing career didn't I when I came out of prison initially I went back into me boxing and I was an unlicensed fighter you know I was never going to get me pro-licensed because of my criminal record the boxing world is you know some fantastic ambassadors for the sport but it's very pompous governing bodies for me I could I was at that semi-pro sort of level I wouldn't have been good enough to be a journeyman probably I'd say I mean it's good as some of the greats out there but I was I was game and I could have a row and I and I boxed for an organisation and I took it as far as I could and they had their own version of a British title and I won that British title you know that was a sense of achievement because I was 35 years old at the time and they said ah you're too old you won't do it wherever else and the reality of it is I won most of my fights you know what I mean I was quite a good fighter and I'd done a lot of good training kids and we had our own little boxing camp and Kamaldra yeah so I'd been down that road and had my stripes there you still train I still train now yeah I was just getting back into training and hopefully doing a bit of coaching as a little past time and then the lockdown happened but I've built a big scaffolding in my garden and put a punch bag on it and all that so keep active yeah good brother Ray listen it's been an absolute pleasure brother honestly I've thoroughly enjoyed your story you know Terry your story's a phenomenal I love the fact that what you've been through and the fact that you've changed me so I take my hat off to you thank you you're a good guy mate stay strong brother stay in the path and keep fighting thank you