 meeting to order. This meeting is being recorded. There it is. Thank you. Okay, welcome to the Amherst Historical Commission public hearings and public meeting on Wednesday, May 18th, 2022. My name is Jane Wald and as chair of the Amherst Historical Commission, I'm calling this meeting to order at 637 p.m. Pursuant to chapter 20 of the Acts of 2021, this meeting is being conducted by remote means. As no in-person attendance is permitted, every effort is being made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time. In addition, this meeting is being recorded and minutes are being taken as usual. Members of the public who wish to access the meeting may do so in the following manner. Open the town's home page on an internet browser, navigate to the town calendar at the bottom of that page, click on the historical commission meeting link, zoom and telephone connections and the meeting agenda can be found there. So we'll begin by taking attendance by roll call. So board members as you hear your name called, please answer affirmatively or raise your hand. Patricia off. Present. Catherine Davis. It's not present. Robin Fordham. I will come back to Robin as her connection may be unstable at the moment. Oh, I'm here. Becky Lockwood. Present. Janet Marquardt. He's not yet present. Heady startup. Present. Jane Wald. I'm present too. We have a very full agenda this evening with at least listed six demolition permit hearings and another important item related to the Jones Library Garden. So it's a full meeting. So I'll try to sort of move us along so that we can get to all of the agenda items. Because each of the demolition permit requests is a separate public hearing, we'll be going through an entire review process for each one. That means that there will be an opportunity for public comment for each of the applications. So for members of the public, as I just mentioned, there'll be an opportunity during each of the demolition review hearings. And there'll also be a general public comment period. There will be a comment opportunity when taking up the Jones Library Kinsey Garden agenda item also. So just want you to be aware that the commission will take note of comments but may not necessarily respond to them during the public comment periods. Those wishing to make a public comment may speak for up to three minutes or at the discretion of the commission chair. So at those times, please indicate you wish to make comment by clicking the raise hand feature on Zoom when those comments are solicited. And if you have joined the Zoom meeting using a telephone, please indicate you wish to make a comment by pressing star nine on your phone. And then the procedure is for you to identify yourself by stating your full name and address and then put yourself back into mute when finished speaking. All right. So moving on to the public hearings. Let's see. I'm going to first, first I think, Ben, I think we need to establish our next meeting date. Is that right for purposes of a correct? Yeah. Good. Good thinking. Yeah. So ordinarily, I think our next meeting date would be the third Wednesday in June. I think my presence is required at the planning board meeting on June 15th. Okay. So I was going to suggest either June 8th or June 22nd as the next meeting date. I've got jury duty the 8th. Okay. So let's see. Pat, you're checking your calendar. I'm checking my calendar. The 22nd would work for me as would the Tuesdays, the 14th and the 21st or the Thursday, the 16th if we wanted to keep it in that week. But it's just a suggestion. That's it. Okay. I don't have any conflicts with any of those things. I don't think. All right. Yeah. The 8th or the 22nd is fine with me. Okay. So sounds like Becky, you may have a problem with the 8th, but the 22nd is fine. Yeah. Okay. So for purposes of bringing this group together for quorum, why don't we set June 22nd at 6.30 p.m. Okay. All right. So having established that, I'm just going to go ahead and begin with this 406 Northampton Road. So in accordance with the provisions of Massachusetts General Laws, Chapter 40A in Article 13, demolition delay of the Amherst zoning bylaw, this public hearing has been duly advertised and notice thereof has been posted and mailed to parties at interest. The Amherst Historical Commission is holding this public hearing to provide an opportunity for interested citizens to be heard regarding the following demolition application request. And that is 406 Northampton Road, Parcel 13D, 47, which is the Bloch Realty LLC, which is a request for full demolition of a circa 1900 wood frame single-sandry farmhouse. So at the request of the applicant, the public hearing on this demolition permit is now open and will be continued to June 22nd at 6.35 p.m., which is we've just established as the date of the Historical Commission's next meeting. So having continued that, we will take up two Stanley Street properties. The same preamble applies, but since we have so many hearings, unless there's an objection, I will simply refer to Massachusetts General Laws, Chapter 40A, Articles 13 of the Local Zoning Bylaw. And this is a public hearing for 266 Stanley Street, Parcel 18A6, a request of David James for the full demolition of a circa 1860 wood frame single-family farmhouse. Let's see. And 244 Stanley Street, Parcel 18A5, request of David James for the full demolition of a circa 1940 wood frame two-family house. Now this, because these requests, so Ben perhaps advised me whether I've already messed this up, but because these requests are from the same owner and they are adjacent properties, shall we take them together? Although our discussion and decision needs to be separate for each property. So yeah, I think that's fine. Okay, so we'll look at the two of these at the same time, but then separate votes on each of them. Okay, and I will bring the applicant into the Zoom room. All right, so for the public, this application and other historical information on the affected properties are available at the Document Center on the town website. And the simple procedure for this is that members of the Historical Commission have this documentation about the properties. We'll invite the applicant to make comments supplementing the permit application and supporting materials if desired. We'll ask town staff if they have any additional insights or information. Commission members will may wish to ask questions or make observations about a site visit. There'll be a time for public comment. Then we will, I'll ask for a motion to close the public hearing at which time the commission will begin deliberation of standards for significance. So when we close the public hearing, I can explain a little bit about the procedure for the standards for significance. So if, so I'm so sorry, Jim, I've called you David James twice or maybe three times, but but I know your name is Jim David. So I apologize for that and ask if there's anything you'd like to add concerning your application. No, I'm all set. I think you had a good meeting the other day. Okay. Thank you. Ben, is there anything else to our attention? The only information I went to that was just I did go through the history of the deeds for both properties and kind of jotted down the names associated with each property going back to the 1913 or so for at least for 266 Stanley Street. And I passed those names along to folks at special collections at Jones Library to do some research to see if there were really any significant figures associated with the properties. And, you know, nothing really came up or popped up as far as they were concerned. One thing of interest to me was was there any affiliation with either of these properties with the fairgrounds that are on route nine can kind of adjoin the properties. And I don't think there's an association between them. So that was kind of my bit of historical research that didn't produce too much other than, you know, the 266 does date back to 1860 and 244 is circa 1940. So one of them, you know, has a significantly older. Would it be helpful to show any pictures? Yes, why don't we do that? And let's begin with 266. No, let's begin with 244. It's the first on the, yeah, there we go. Yeah, on the agenda. So this is it from the road. So we can start if commission members have any questions for the applicant, I guess, or comments. Okay. Then are we ready? Ready for a motion? I could see if there's any public comment. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, of course. Yes. Is there any public comment about 244 stand? As a reminder, anyone who wants to make public comment at the bottom of your screen, there should be a little raise hand button that you can press and we'll unmute you and allow you to make a comment. All right, we have one comment. A comment from Tom Harris. I just have a question as to how to access the documents. I've been able to, it's not really about the property, but I had a loss as to how to open documents that are on the, that are particular to this application. Yeah. So, Mr. Harris, I saw your email earlier and then I sent you the link for the meeting information or meeting packet. Sorry, I didn't elaborate further. I guess you would have had to kind of scroll through the historical commission meetings of 2022 and then to today's date and then the information for each meeting is within the packet listed for that date. Yes, I found that information and I'm looking at the log of documents and the images and so forth, but it's not, there's no explanation of how to open them. Okay. If you, clicking on them doesn't open them or you haven't. Oh, interesting. Okay. Hmm. Yeah, it might be interesting. For what it's worth, I was trying to open them on Chrome on my iPad and I didn't even see a list of the documents, but I was able to open them with a different browser. Interesting. Hmm. Well, I can have the, I guess the IT department look into that because I've, it's working on my end. It might be a browser issue. Or what it's worth. I'm using Edge. Edge. Okay. Sorry about that. Yeah, thanks. So perhaps been, maybe it, maybe we could put up the application while we, while we discuss, we'll consider. Okay. Are there any other public comments? So seeing none, is there a motion to close? No, we're not doing that. We are. We are considered, now we will consider 266 Stanley. And then after we look at both of them, then we'll close the public hearing. Okay. So the second property, 266 Stanley Street is the full demolition of a, an 1860 wood frame single family farmhouse. And Mr. David, do you have anything to say about, about this property that you'd like to add to what we saw and discussed on the site? No, I don't think I need to add anything. So, okay. Thank you. Any bigger questions? I'll be happy to answer them though. Okay. And Ben, anything from what you described earlier applied? Yeah, applied to both. Yeah. Okay. All right. Questions from commission members about 266 Stanley? No. Since I wasn't at the site visit, can anyone just briefly recap anything? Curtin? Let's see. It's 1861 and a half story farmhouse that is currently a single family residence. I believe we learned that it has a, not a full basement, but a, a constricted dirt basement. Occasionally, perhaps some water mustiness. The, you know, to me, the exterior appearance of the house is that it's in good condition. Are the windows historic? I don't, I mean, from the images here, I don't believe so. Mr. David, would you like to comment? No, the windows are not historic. They've been replete. They're vinyl windows. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. Becky or Hedy, do you have any other information for Robin? It's got a metal roof, an older metal roof. Do we know who it was built for? The earliest name I saw on the deed was a Mr. Jeremiah Hart. Okay. Um, but, uh, no further information about that individual. Okay. It, there are several nearby outbuildings. One is a small, fairly small structure that's closed to the house. Yeah. That structure, the sheathing, it looks to be in very poor condition. And it's kind of patched. You can sort of see some of the patching in this, in this photo. And I believe that was the, I believe that was the only outbuilding directly associated with this with this house. Is that correct, Ben? Correct. Okay. Okay. Um, so let's see. Um, then, so if we have no more questions at this point, I will invite public comment on 266 Stanley Street. Okay. Um, then with no public comment, um, now we have seen both houses, uh, these two adjacent houses, um, in this, in this particular public hearing. So, uh, let's, uh, if I could have a motion to close the public hearing, then we'll take a vote on that and then move to our deliberation. I make a motion to close the public hearing seconded. Thank you, Katie. Uh, all in favor with a visible show of real hands. Okay. Thank you. That's five. Um, uh, unanimous to close public hearing. All right. So now, um, the commission begins its deliberation, um, of the information received with the application and, um, according to, uh, standards for significance outlined in article 13 of the zoning by law, uh, for benefit of members of the public attending this meeting, the historical commission's deliberations may result in one of three outcomes. So I'm just going to say this the first time for this public hearing, and I won't need to say it for the others, um, unless we have new attendees who would like to, to hear this. Uh, so one of the outcomes is a finding that the building is not a significant structure according to by law criteria. Uh, that means that essentially the demolition permit is approved. Uh, a second outcome is a finding that the building is a significant structure according to by law criteria, but that the proposed demolition would not be detrimental to the historical or architectural heritage or resources of the town. In the case of that finding, uh, the demolition is essentially approved. A third outcome is a finding, uh, by the commission that the building is a significant structure according to by law criteria, and that the proposed demolition would be detrimental to the historical or architectural heritage or resources of the town. And in that case, uh, the demolition permit would not be approved and the historical commission would be asking for a delay in, uh, in demolition. So let's see. Um, all right, so let's take, let's take 244 Stanley Street first. And because, so I'm going to, um, go through the, kind of the four major, uh, criteria for significance, uh, and there are subheads under those because we have so many, um, hearings to get through this evening. Um, I think, uh, Ben, if you have those criteria handy, if you could put those up on the screen, what I will ask of commission members is just to state if you, uh, have a, uh, a concern about its historical importance for any of the subheads there, uh, its architectural importance or its geographic importance. And the reason I'd like to do it this way is so that for all five of these uh, hearings, um, we won't necessarily have to read through each and every criterion. Okay. Uh, but where there is, where you register a concern, um, about any of these criteria, then we will slow down and we'll just take them one by one. Okay. Um, all right. Okay. So let's see the, um, all right. So review standards for designation as a significant structure enumerated in section 13.4, uh, of the zoning bylaw, meeting only one of the criteria is sufficient for designation as a significant structure. Um, so again, we're going to proceed by subhead. So, um, first is whether the, uh, building is listed on or is within an area listed on the National Register of Historic Places or is the subject of a pending application for listing on said register. And the, uh, in the case of, uh, 244 Stanley Street, um, it is not. Then we have a set of criteria under 13.410 of historical importance. So I will ask any commission member who wishes to comment on that just to raise your hand or I'll, you know, recognize your, um, Eddie, you look like you want to say something. I do. And I have misgivings about what I'm going to say because it wasn't something I shared at the site visit, but you know, this is a little house. It's almost at the corner of Stanley Street and, um, oh, route, that's route nine, right? Yeah. Um, and there's a little grouping of houses around the edge of what you can see as the historic fairgrounds and what's there now is allotments and open space and then a couple of different housing projects nearby. So it obviously in 1860 was, was its own little kind of neighborhood of houses. And it emerged that Jim has lived here and his family have lived here for over a hundred years. May I, I'm sorry to interrupt, Eddie, but just clarity. We're talking about right now we're talking about the 1940 house. Sorry. Yeah. Sorry. Then just, just, I'll sit my remarks and I'll, I'll come back for the second house. Apologies. Thank you, Jane. All right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Architectural importance. Geographic importance. Okay. So let, let's just go ahead with a motion on that particular house, 244 Stanley Street. Um, if someone wished to make a motion about, about approving a motion permit. The, the 244 Stanley Street does not meet the criteria of a significant structure. And there, and therefore should be considered the demolition request should be considered. I think I think that's just right. Okay. I would just replace the word considered with approved. All right then. Is there a second? I second it. Thank you, Becky. And then we'll take a roll call vote. And I'll start with Robin Fordham. Uh, in favor. Let's see. Heady start up. In favor. Patricia off. In favor. Becky Lockwood. In favor. And Jane Wald in favor. So the outcome of our vote is that the building is not a significant structure and the demolition permit is approved. All right. So we'll go through those four criteria for 266 Stanley Street. Again, it is first criteria is whether it's listed on or within an area listed on the national register of historic places or his pending. And the answer to that is no. Um, again, I'll ask if, um, anyone has comments on the, uh, various criteria under the heading of historical importance. And I believe that was an area you were interested in earlier. Heady, would you like to continue? Just just, um, I think what's hard for me is to separate my professional perspective from my personal perspective. And when I mentioned my personal perspective, obviously it has absolutely nothing to do with why I'm on this commission or not. But one reason I moved to Amist was because it was so beautiful and so historic and had such wonderful streets, scapes and neighborhoods. And, um, I knew that I could, it was walkable and that I would like to grow old here. Um, and that it had a lot of history. So I look at this little house and it's not in itself very distinguished. Um, and it doesn't really conform to any in and of itself architectural significance, but it is historically kind of a piece of the story of this neighborhood of how this group of houses grew up around the fairgrounds, which, you know, was probably a pretty important thing in Amist for, for many decades. Um, and personally, if I was buying in Amist, this is exactly the kind of house I would like to buy, um, with its beautiful picturesque Andrew Wyeth looking barn right next to it, even though it's barely standing. Um, and, and I, you know, so I'm just, I'm just sort of, I just have really mixed mixed thoughts about a building like this. And I, I wonder what can be discussed, you know, or thought about a little bit more about what could happen here. Um, in order to preserve what was the the entrance to Stanley Street from one end, you know, rather than from, is it Southeast Street, the other end. Um, so I'm, I'm just sharing that. I, I realize it's a bit, a bit of a sort of left field kind of set of comments, but I'm, that's, that's who I am. Okay. Thank you, Hedy. I'm going to recognize Robin and then I have a thought about this historical importance. Okay. Um, I was just going to say that I think my last semester of classes has really got me focused on aligning ourselves to, you know, that if we're going to make a decision of significance here, we have to pick one of these four areas under historic importance. I mean, I, I, um, I commiss, I commiss rates probably not the right word to relate to, to Hedy's comments. Um, but I would say that so that someone would have to make an argument that perhaps what she's speaking to it relates to the first 13410 has character interest or value as part of the development heritage or cultural characteristics of the town of Amherst. The question is, um, how much sustaining information do we need from, you know, from, from the record that Ben has looked at to really affirm that as, as significant. That's, that's what I would say under this particular heading that if there were more information there or there was a sense, I know in the past, I think that we may have, um, asked for a delay so that further research could be done in the fear that we might be missing something. Um, I certainly agree with the concept that small, um, you know, non-high style structures are just as legitimate for preservation. Um, you know, they fall into the right, right category. So that's my contribution to the discussion. Okay. Um, so I think, uh, I think then, uh, we should go through each one of these criteria so that all, all members of the commission can sort of express their sense of each one of these four. Um, so let's, uh, let's begin with, uh, uh, with the first one. The structure meets the criterion of historical importance if, if it, the structure has character, interest, or value as part of the development, heritage, or cultural characteristics of the town of Amherst, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts for the nation. So, uh, let, uh, we'll just do this as a roll call, I think. Um, so I will begin with Becky. Would you, if you are prepared to, um, I'm going to say no. Okay. Um, then let's see. Um, Hattie. Yes. You know, when I, when I took a look at this property in person, um, I, uh, the thought crossed my mind that it, that it's a farmhouse from the middle 1800s and there's a great history of farming in Amherst. Um, it's not, it's not a house that stands out, you know, architecturally, but I think we need to at least acknowledge that there's some, um, heritage in the farming mode of Amherst in the 1800s. So I guess, I guess I'm, I'm, I'm conflicted. Um, and I think probably it comes down to no, because it doesn't, it doesn't have the property or the bearing of, of a farmhouse today. Okay. Um, all right. And then Robin. Um, so I'm trying to look at this definition. I mean, I would agree that it's lost some of its integrity and relationship to its, um, to its surroundings. Um, I would say that it has character and interest, uh, as part of the agricultural development of the town. Um, I also just want to remind everybody on the committee that this is where it sometimes gets confusing where you feel like if you're, uh, maybe if you're arguing that it's significant that you're, that that makes it more difficult to allow for demolition, but that's not the case. Right. So, um, I'm going to say yes on this particular, um, particular 134100. Okay. And then, um, I, I too am going to say yes, uh, because of its origins in 1860 in this particular neighborhood and as a kind of, uh, expression of agricultural culture. So that is three, yes and two, no. So there, that's one, that's one area of significance. The second that the structure is the site of an historic event. And, um, just again, kind of quickly, this time we'll start with Hedy. No. And Robin. No. Becky. No. Pat. No. And no for me. Um, next is that it is identified with a person or group of persons who had some influence on society. And, um, I'll begin with Robin. No. Becky. No. Hedy. No. And Pat. No. And I am a no on that also. Uh, finally exemplifies the cultural, political, economic, social or historic heritage of the community. And I will begin with Pat. Um, I will say no because I don't think it exemplifies. That's a good point. Uh, Hedy. Yes. Robin. No. Becky. No. And I am, I may yes on that. Uh, but we have now come out on this criterion with three nos and two yeses. So we are not, not considering that, um, significant. All right. Next, the next category is architectural importance. And, um, I'll invite any comments from commission members who, uh, you know, you're looking at this, the, uh, individual criteria. And if you'd like to comment on any of those, I'll invite that. So hearing no, uh, no concerns about that, we look at the final group and that's geographic importance and any comments from commission members. Jane, could I ask you to speak from a little to the, the process location to its surrounding area. So there's a special, if there's fair, fair, and again, I wasn't at the site, but that I apologize. Um, there, there's a fairgrounds area. I'm assuming that the whatever farm this house was associated with or agriculture area is not distinguishable at this point. Would that be correct? I think that's my sense of it. Um, so Stanley Street, um, West of Stanley Street is what is now the Amherst nurseries. I think that's the name of it, which is a fairly large, yeah, tract of land, which apparently was location of the fairgrounds or the racetrack. Um, and I know Ben that you had identified that. Um, so that area is, I, I believe that this house where it's cited is not, uh, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not sure it's immediately adjacent to the fairgrounds or the racetrack, but Ben, do you want to, um, set me right there? Um, yeah, it is, it's kind of at an angle to the fairgrounds or to the Amherst nurseries property. Um, and kind of one corner touches the, the property. But the house itself has no historical relationship to that. That's correct. Okay. All right. Thank you. Um, only, as I understand it, only in the sense that they existed at the same time. Right. Right. Um, then it appears we don't have concerns about its geographic importance. Um, all right. So we have, we have then found one that, uh, the structure has met one criterion, uh, of historical importance that it has character interest or values part of the development heritage or cultural characteristics of the town of Amherst. So we have a couple of choices here. So we, uh, well, we have a variety of choices actually, but, um, one is that we can, um, we can find it significant, but not, um, not necessarily impose a demolition delay. A second is that if we feel that we need more information, we can continue this hearing. Um, and a third, of course, is that, um, we wish to, um, work with the owner on finding some um, some other way to treat the, treat the house, um, within 12 months. So, um, having, having gone through this with a conversation about the historical importance, um, um, what, what might you suggest in terms of emotion or further discussion? I was just going to say welcome to Jan, uh, for joining us. Um, and I think there's a under the Mullen rule for public hearings. Um, since you've missed the kind of the first chunk of it, um, I don't think you're technically allowed to contribute. So welcome and, but sorry, you can't talk, but we'll, we'll, we obviously have a few more in the evening. So, well, I, and I'd love to see a situation where the owner, the property owner could go ahead with his plans for the property at 244 Stanley street, but that we might come back about 266. Um, who was Jeremiah Hart, you know, how important was he to late 19th century Amherst? Um, uh, I don't know. Um, I know that the house itself has a dirt basement. Well, that just to me confirms its authenticity. Its final windows don't, but they could be restored and have wooden windows. Um, I've seen that happen in other contexts. Um, it's just a very, I hate to use this word, but it's a very picturesque setting to drive onto this street from route nine behind a row of fairly a lot of foliage and trees and shrubs so that you're barely aware of it and then to just come into this neighborhood. And, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's its own little, little, little area. Um, so I would love to see us maybe just try and have some conversations about what might happen instead of demolition immediately. That's all I'm going to say. Um, Robin? Um, I think that I would, I mean, I think that the building itself reads really well still as a farmhouse. The, the metal roof is, um, you know, it was a really interesting piece. Um, it hasn't lost a lot of its integrity and, um, all right, for one, we're definitely like to know more about the history of the property. Um, yeah, um, I guess that's, that's my feeling that, um, I don't feel quite comfortable with the demolition at this moment. Hey, um, Becky? Yeah, I just like to ask if, if this is, I'm not sure this is appropriate. If the owner has looked into a restoration, the costs, how that would work versus a demolition. Okay. I see, uh, Mr. David, your hand is up. So please, uh, please comment. The roof is currently fails. That's going to need to come off and be replaced anyway, just to make that very clear. So that's how it can roof is, is that's history. That's coming off. It needs to come off now and, uh, the house itself, I'll leave it, you mentioned about the roof, but the roof is definitely well past its prime and it is not, um, a usable watertight structure. Okay. Thank you. Um, Robin, is that a, uh, a new hand or a leftover hand? Okay. Um, okay. So I'm understanding the sense of the meeting is that the commission would would like some more time to consider what they've identified as the character interest or value as part of the development heritage or cultural characteristics of the town uh, before proceeding directly to demolition. So there are two ways we can affect that and, um, one is, uh, to delay approval of the demolition permit, uh, for a certain period of time. Another is to continue the hearing, um, which does not, you know, we would need to continue the hearing to a date certain, which would naturally be, well, the first opportunity would be our next meeting on June 22nd. Um, if our goal is to learn more about the history of the property, that's what I would recommend. Um, I think the last thing I might say is, um, because we did not find any, we did not have any concerns about geographical importance, I'm, I'm going to ask us not to really consider the setting and really to focus on, on the house. So, um, so those are, those are my thoughts and, uh, uh, any other discussion about that? Any, um, formation of a, of a motion? Uh, Pat? I just have a question. Um, the site visit was to the exterior and now Mr. David tells us that the roof is going to need to be replaced if the house continues to stand. That that's not, that's not a feature that we can factor into our consideration. Um, but I guess my question is, is what condition is the interior of the house? Ben, are we, I mean, that may be a question of curiosity. It's just a question of curiosity only in that, that, um, from the exterior, it looks quite sound. And so I guess I'm just extending it to overall, what is the condition of the house? Okay. Yeah. Mr. David? Um, it's been a student house since 1975. It's, it did have some sheet rocking wiring done about that period of time. It has been, it's very poor in the injury. Um, the roof is leaked. There's the bathrooms were replaced in about 1975. They had some sheet rock, but no installation. Just speak of, I'm sure there's been mice and rodents and mold and everything else that goes along with these wonderful old structures. Um, so in my opinion, like I said, also being a builder in different things is we're trying to, trying to make things more environmental friendly. We're trying to create things that are safer for community to live in. Um, and these old homes, this old home, he does not read that windows are too small by code. You know, it's not a, sometimes these things do need to go on and change. All right. Thank you very much for saying that we take good care of our exterior of our properties. I do appreciate that very much in the plantings and different things. And we do try to continue to do that. And we feel like I said, we've been far vanished for almost a century. Um, and we would like to continue to do that. Okay. Thank you. Robin, I, your hand, I think is up. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I just had a quick question. Just regarding the interior, I think what you're suggesting yours, my question would be that it sounds like the interior of the structure does not reflect, uh, the original historical floor plan or any original bathrooms or kitchen or anything like that. But you would not know it was a historic farmhouse if you went into the interior. Okay. Okay. All right. Um, so we still have those choices before us. Um, um, I guess, I guess I'd ask you to sort of think about is it, is it the history of the property that we're wanting to know more about, or are we satisfied on that point? Um, now that we've had a look at it, discussion and information from the owner, are we, you know, do we prefer to take another course with either approving the demolition permit or not? Um, Jane, I think given the, I think I'm going to make a motion to allow for the demolition and see what the commission wants to vote on that. And my feeling about that is just without the context of any farmland and the deteriorated state of the roof and some of the changes that I can see, I think there's just not enough integrity there to warrant delaying the demolition, but that would be my motion. So to approve the demolition, and if I have a second, we could vote. Okay. Um, Becky. Oh, I'm sorry, you're muted. I would like to second that now. Look at motion of Robbins. All right. Thank you. Um, is there any further discussion? Petty or Pat? No. Jane, did you want to weigh in at all? I'm always curious what you think. Uh, you know, it's, um, it tugs at our heart a little bit. Yeah, it does. It does. And, um, in general, I think it's, um, easier to, I mean, there are instances where it's very clear that something has, um, really foundational historic significance and then other times where, you know, you kind of have to almost inhabit an idea or inhabit a space to understand whether it has integrity or not. But I, I think the, I think the points about its, um, kind of the room, the lack of, the lack of any evidence that it was sort of instrumental in the fairground or the racetrack, uh, you know, that, that, I think that's an important point. And it's sort of dislocation from an agricultural and identifiable agricultural past, um, I think is a good one. Uh, my, I mean, I think it is an absolutely charming, uh, appearance. Um, I do, it does matter to me what, I mean, even though our role is to think about, you know, the exterior and the presence of the structure in our town landscape, um, I think it does make a difference that, you know, there's some losses in the interior. Um, so I think it's, I think it's fine for us to have found a criterion that, uh, where we think there is some significance. Um, we, I think one of our options is to um, is to make sure that, that the Historical Commission helps to document the structure. So I, you know, I think documentation is, uh, you know, that's kind of the, in a way it's a bit of a partner to a, a demolition permit to, to proceeding in that direction. Um, so that's what I think. Um, Pat? Yes, I'm, I'm curious as to whether there's a macros filed on that property because that would follow up if it's not. I, I would like to suggest that that happen, um, as part of the demolition, um, approval, that, that, that the, that the house be properly recorded in macros. Yeah, Ben, can I amend my motion to, for that? Okay, so amended. Okay. And then, uh, Becky, I think you had made a second. Would you like to second? Yes. So, so seconded. All right. Thank you. All right. I think we're ready to come to a vote. Um, so I will begin with Pat off. Um, I approve, agree. Becky Lockwood. I approve. Patty Startup. Yes, I approve. Robin Fordham. In favor. Yes. And Jane Wald in favor. So, um, all right. So the basic outcome is that, um, we are, you know, approving the demolition permit on condition that there's an opportunity to document the, the house, uh, descriptively and photographically, um, and submit a, uh, uh, gather information for a, um, macros filing. And so Jane, my question is who will be responsible for that? Excellent question. Um, I think so our, um, we know, so first of all, I'm just going to ask if anyone here on the commission, uh, would like to put some time into this because we know how much Ben has on his plate. Um, I would be willing to volunteer for that. Yeah, what is my, what's the timeline for that? I'm sure that the owners are eager to have that. Yeah, I mean, we, we have the, uh, Jim, uh, or maybe it was Michael Schaefer shared, uh, quite a few pictures of the property. So, um, obviously that, that's something we would need before it's demolished. Um, so we have the pictures, um, to work with and then, you know, maybe given Jim's history with the property if he, you know, wanted to add anything to the, uh, historical significance, might be able to pick his brain for little tidbits about the history of the property and, um, and work from there to build a description architecturally and historically. So I think it could happen pretty, pretty quickly. Okay. I, I kind of doubt that, well, I don't really know. I mean, yeah, it did kind of doubt that there's sandborn maps for that area. Yeah. So a lot of it really, I think, is just sort of collecting the, the historical research. Yeah. Right. Thank you, Robin. That's terrific. Okay. So we are, uh, we've concluded that hearing and we'll need to move smartly through the next one. Um, Jan? Um, not since I wanted to wait till after the vote, I just wondered if I could suggest one thing and ask Mr. David if he would consider taking the look, um, the, the position, the porch of the house into account when designing the new buildings. Um, if maybe the one that replaces the house could have some of the same characteristics, so you'd get some of that same charm as you came around the corner and saw the new structures rather than having them all exactly the same. It's just an idea of a way to kind of hold on to that, um, historical impression and, um, record the look of the farmhouse from that period that is so, um, amorous. Just an idea. Okay. Thank you, Jan. Um, I think Mr. David can take that, take away that suggestion. Um, and, um, let's see, whatever sort of officialness now needs to happen with the decision then you will, you will help Mr. David with that. Correct. Yeah. So we'll, we'll move the permits along and then I'll be in touch about the, um, historical, uh, inventory form. So thanks for, uh, coming tonight. Yeah. Okay. So now, uh, open a public hearing for, um, 37 North Pleasant Street, which is parcel 14A49, a request from Barry Roberts. This is a continuation of a, a, a hearing opened on April 20th, 2022, and it's a request for the full demolition of a circa 1900 wood frame two-story commercial building on North Pleasant. Um, so this, this property has come up before the historical commission earlier, at which time, um, the commission, uh, approved a demolition permit. However, that had, that permit has expired, uh, and according to the bylaw, we need to, uh, revisit this property. Um, and I believe the mid, minutes of that meeting were included in, uh, the meeting materials. So, um, okay. So, uh, having sort of described a process already, I'm going to move immediately to asking Mr. Roberts, if you have any other, um, comments or other information that you'd like to share with us? I don't think so. I think that, uh, you made reference to, uh, when I was before you in March of 21, um, and you found that this was not a significant historic structure and you granted the demolition permit. Um, since then, of course, the pandemic happened and our things stalled on our end. And so the building inspector said that I need to come back to you people to reestablish a demolition permit. So that's why I'm back. Okay. Thank you. Um, Ben, anything new or further that you'd like to comment on? Um, no, no new information. Um, what Mr. Roberts shared was correct in terms of the process. The demolition permit was granted, but then the permit expired and thus required a new application for a demolition permit. And so that triggered the Article 13 demolition delay process. And, but yeah, obviously no, no new findings for the building that weren't at the original hearing. I do have this slide show that I shared if folks want to see. I know, um, Becky was not on the commission at the time March, March 2021. Yeah, maybe we could look quickly at that. Um, yeah. So just Jan's question first, and then we can go through the slide. Jan, do you have Mr. I was just going to say, what about if I move that we renew the permit and then we discuss, um, as part of the motion? Uh, oh, that. Well, why don't you do that immediately after the quick, quick slide show? So, okay, so Becky can see you when we're just so we know what we're talking about right out on the typewriter. It's the typewriter shop and, um, this small wooden building, McMurphy's in the immerse boys and girls. It's not that the upstairs is vacant now, actually, but, um, and then here, I just kind of found pictures through time. Um, it's circa 1900, um, but, you know, it shows up here in 1890, 1895, 1910, you can see how North pleasant street changes over time, trolley tracks. And yeah, you can see it in an area from 1946. You know, one point it was where McMurphy's was, was an older drinking establishment. Yeah. And yeah, this is just some information about the, uh, just the Amherst central business district, which this building is not included within. Okay. Yeah. Thank you for that run through. Um, let's see. Oh, I see Jan's hand up. Is there, would you like to make a motion? Sorry, it was still up, but sure. I move we renew the permit that we granted to yours. I second that. Okay. Thank you, Jan and Kenny. Uh, any further discussion? So essentially it's just, it would be a new demolition permit, I guess. So it's just, you're voting to grant a demolition permit. I move we grant another demolition. Okay. Yeah. Okay. All right. Thanks for that clarification, Ben. Let's see. Seeing no discussion, we will go to a vote. Oh, do you want to maybe take public comment? Yes, I almost forgot to. Yeah. Um, uh, is there any public comment on demolition, granting a demolition permit for 37 North pleasant street? All right. Seeing none, then. Um, all right. There are just so many procedural steps. I think we have to close the public hearing. You need a motion? Yes. So we first need, we need, we need Jan to withdraw her motion. Oh, okay. Rob. Thank you. Robin. I'm moving to close the public hearing. Thank you so much. Um, all in favor? Bye. Your hand, and we will take a voice from Hedy. Okay. Hedy raised your hand. All right. Unanimous. All right. Now, is there a, uh, a motion concerning the permit, demolition permit? I once again move that we credit demolition permit for this property. Second. Again. Thank you. All right. On this, we'll do a roll call and I will begin with Robin Fordham. In favor. Patricia off. In favor. Becky Lockwood. In favor. And Jan Marquardt. Yes. And Hedy startup. Yes. Very good. Jane Wald is yes as well. All right. So that's passed unanimously and, uh, thanks, uh, thanks Barry for coming back and, um, we wish you, wish you much, much success with your part. Yeah. Barry is actually going to stick around for having two other projects if I'm not mistaken. Aren't you lucky? Okay. Um, all right. So we are going to open a public hearing for 164 Sunset Avenue, Parcel 11C9, uh, uh, from Fearing Sunset, uh, LLC. This is a request to demolish, um, the breezeway and garage and relocate the remaining circa 1942 wood frame single family house to a parcel in the town of Hadley. So with our, um, procedures, we have, uh, information provided, uh, in advance and, um, so Barry, is there anything you'd like to, anything in addition you'd like to share with us? Yes. I think, uh, when we met with a local historic, um, uh, group about, uh, wanting to, uh, build a new project at the corner of Fearing Sunset and knowing that these two houses would be compromised, uh, their request of us was to see if we could possibly save both houses. 164 and its neighbor, 174. So, uh, we have been able to find, we'll talk about 164. I was not able to find two lots in the town of Amherst. I found one lot, which 174 is the next hearing we're going to talk about. It's going to, I could not find two lots in town of Amherst to move. So we found a lot in Hadley to take 164, two, and I thought that was more appropriate house to move out of a historic district than 174, in my opinion. Um, in order to be able to move the house, we need to take down the breezeway and go out because it'd be way too wide to go down the street. So that's basically what we're asking to do. Okay. Okay. Thank you. And great, Ben. Thanks for putting up the photos. Yep. And so 164 is at the top, 174 is at the bottom. So we're talking about the White House right now. All right. And the, it's this house that is going to a place in Hadley. All right. And Ben, anything you'd like to add? I guess I'll just add that for these two properties, the local historic district commission has reviewed them quite closely and both gave approval for the relocation of both properties of both houses and actually for 174 because the receiving parcel is within the historic district, they have already approved the the new location for the 174 Sunset Ave. But for both, they have granted authorization for the relocation. Okay. Thank you. Let's see, are there questions from or comments or observations from commission members? And Hedy, I see your hand up. Sorry, sorry, Jane. It's an old hand. Okay. Sorry. All right then. At this time, I'll invite public comment. Oh, Becky, you did it. Was that a hand of yours? No, okay. So inviting public comment. Then is there a motion to close the public hearing? I give a motion to close the public hearing. Thank you, Pat. And a second. Second. Okay, thank you. All in favor for this, we'll just do a hand raise. Okay. Hedy, I see your hand. Mine, Becky's, Robin, Pat and Jan. Okay. So unanimously, we're closing the public hearing. This, I mean, obviously this is a structure within, they're moving on to the criteria for significance. This is a structure within a local historic district. And within a, I think this is outside the National Register District. Is that correct, Van? I'll have to check on that quickly. Hold on. That is correct. All right. Then, so then we're down to historical, architectural and geographical significance. Are there any concerns about historical importance in light of what we know of what's happening with the house? Any comments about architectural importance? And any comments about geographical importance? And of course, since it's moving from its geography, that may be the one to wonder about. Any comments? All right. Sorry. I was going to ask if they were establishing familiar visual features of the neighborhood. Does anybody have any comment on that? I'm sorry, I didn't understand what you're asking me. Oh, is actually asking my commission members if they had any. That's okay. On the, an established and familiar visual feature of the neighborhood. Technically, perhaps, but it seems to me that with the owner being willing to recite both of these houses, I don't want to rock the boat. I think it's great that we can come to a solution like this. But yeah, no, I wasn't whispering with that. It was just a, I mean, procedural. I agree that that that the fact that one of them is being moved into the same district maintains that. And I don't know where in Hadley the other one is going, but I'm assuming that it will have a presence wherever it is. And so it's not Amherst, but it's preserving. That wasn't really my point. I'm just referencing the, you know, the particular definition, but it's not a question of the impact of moving it will have sort of weather. I don't even know that I would consider it to have that visual character, but I was curious if anybody had any, but, but I will pass on that. Yeah, I, I, I would not, not think that was important under this discussion. So then I think we are ready to have a motion and we can, we can frame the motion with either with reference to the action of the local historic district commission or with reference to appreciation that it's moving to another site. So if there's a, if there's a creative and literary mind out there wanting to compose this motion, I see, I see Hadley's hand. I think the work and the due diligence has been done here. I really am very appreciative of both the local historic district commission and Mr. Roberts for figuring this out and coming to a conclusion that seems to be a benefit to a variety of neighborhoods. I can't make a motion, but because I'm too tired and but I, but that's, but that's my thought that we're sort of at that point really to move on. So if I take a gander and a motion that, that we approve the plan to, to preserve and move the two structures consistent with the recommendation from the local historic district to preserve the structures and to, I guess, to preserve the structures through the plan. So I'm gonna edit that for me. Okay. I think Ben, do we need to make that a motion to approve the demolition permit? Yep, yeah, because there is a pending demolition permit. Right. So to approve it based on the plan as approved by the local historic district to move the structures so that they be preserved in the process. A second. Then let us, if that works as a motion, Ben, you think that works as a motion, Ben? Yep. Yep. Okay. Great. Thank you. So then we will go to a roll call vote and I'll begin with Becky Lockwood. I approve. Janet Marquardt. Fine with me. Hey, Robin Fordham. In favor. Patricia Auff. In favor. Katie Startup. In favor. And Jane Wald. In favor. So we have a unanimous, a unanimous vote on that. So thanks, Barry. And obviously you're sticking around for the next public hearing, which is public hearing for 174 Sunset Avenue, parcel 11C 299, a request from Fearing Sunset LLC to demolish the back porch in the detached garage and relocate the remaining circa 1923 wood frame single family house to a parcel located at 46 Fearing Street, which is parcel 11C 123 and Amherst. So the public hearing is now open. And Barry, are there other things you'd like to share with us? I guess I want to explain that why we're asking for this, to move this building with the back porch on it is too wide to fit up the street. To demo the garage, the garage doesn't have much structural integrity, but we intend to build a new garage at 46 Fearing. And we will go back before the local historic commission to get approval for the design of that garage, which we will mimic the one we're going to take down. Fantastic. Are you planning to add back a porch or is that not? Probably not, because of where we're locating it. The lot has wetlands in the rear, so to stay away from the wetlands, we don't have a lot of extra breathing room. Then can I see the picture of the house in the garage? Could you share that? Thank you. Which one are we talking about now? The yellow house. So this picture to the left is taken on Sunset Ave. The one on the right is on Fearing Street, kind of looking at the back of the house. And so Mr. Roberts, your intention is to recreate a garage again to the historic one that won't make the move. I applaud you. I just wrote a paper on detached garages and their history, so. All right. Anything, Ben, from you? Nope. Nothing more to add. Okay. Are there any comments, other comments or questions from members of the commission? Ben, are there any members of the public attending who would like to make a comment? Then I will, a motion to close the public hearing will be very welcome. So moved. Thank you. And the second. Second. Thank you, Pat. All right. A show of hands to close the public hearing. Okay. Thank you. That's unanimous to close the public hearing. All right. So we know that this is, we know it's in a local historic district. We know the local historic district commission has already discussed it. It is, oh, help me, Ben. It is outside. Yeah, it's just outside the National Register District, but it's in the local historic district. Okay. So are there any comments about the historical importance of this structure? Comments about the architectural importance of the building. And then comments about the geographical importance. In that case, is there a motion to approve the demolition permit? I make a motion to approve the demolition permit for the garage and attached breezeway. Second. Okay. Just a technique, technicality is that I think we have to have a motion for the, well, I'm not sure what stage we're at. Ben, a motion for the garage, the attached breezeway. Do we, at this moment, do we also need to approve the moving of the structure? Correct. Yeah, that's, that's before the commission now is the relocation of the house and then the demolition of the garage and the back porch. So can we amend that to start with the moving of the house, demolition of the garage and the breezeway? Correct. Yeah. This, this one does not have the breezeway. That was the previous house, right? All right. Yep. It's back porch and garage. It's a back porch. Right. Sorry. Okay. Okay. And a friendly amendment for me is just comma with appreciation for the consideration by the local historic district commission and the owners efforts to preserve the structure. Great. Okay. Then a second. Oh, second. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Then let's see. Let's go to a vote with starting with Heddy. Oops. Muted. Sorry. I was muted. I prove it. Thank you. You know, that's so interesting. I heard you without your little red mute thing disappearing. I think you've, I think you've conquered Zoom. Becky Lockwood. I approve. Janet Marquardt. And with me. Robin Fordham. In favor. And Patricia Oth. In favor. Jane Walden. In favor. All right. So that is unanimous. So again, thank you, Barry, for all your efforts to keep Amherst history going. Thank you for your time. Thanks, Barry. Thank you. So I believe we've come to the end of our demolition hearings. And then now we move to a presentation discussion of the Jones Memorial Library. Let's see. This is a public hearing as well. So, right. Okay. So a public hearing to consider our responsibility to fulfill sections 3.1 and 3.2 of the preservation restriction agreement between the trustees of the Samuel Minnott Jones Memorial Library and the town of Amherst is open. So let's see. We have, I believe we have representatives of the library with us who would like to whom we will invite to make a presentation or comment on on their proposal. Hi, everybody. Hello. Hi. Thank you for having us. Well, my name is Sharon Cherry. I'm the director of the Jones Library. And with me are George Hicks Richards. He's the Jones Library's facility supervisor. And Jane Briden is from the Kestrel Land Trust. I didn't know if I do have a quick PowerPoint because I just love a good PowerPoint. Is it okay if I share my screen? Or Ben, do you want to do that? No, I'm happy for you to, if you'd like. Okay. Awesome. So we are here because starting next spring or summer, our backyard, the Jones Library's backyard is going to turn into a bit of a construction zone due to the library's expansion and renovation project. So because of the project and the resulting loss of plantings, the Kestrel Land Trust is proposing to move many of the plantings to a new site still located in Amherst. And Jane can talk more about this. It'll be in the southern part of Amherst. In order to maintain the integrity of the Kinsey Memorial Garden, we would like that as many of the plants and hardscapes possible to be relocated. In order to accomplish this goal, the Land Trust hired a professional to come in and prune the roots of the items that will be moved. And then in the fall, the same professional will come back and perform the transplants. Fundraising will occur to ensure that the project is paid for. And then once the plants have been moved, we will make the backyard safe. In other words, we'll fill in the holes. But it's not going to be pretty is my guess. We won't be investing in additional resources until the time is right. Landscaping will be a part of design development, but the capital campaign is going to be a key component of this project. So once, you know, when our landscape is going to look like in the future is really yet to be determined. But as you all know, you'll be seeing a lot of us in the upcoming year as part of this project, not only for the landscaping, but also for the building. I have some photos I'd like to share with you of what our backyard has looked like over time. So here on the screen are the original landscaping plans. Here is a pretty cool picture of what the backyard looked like in the 1920s. Here is the Kinsey plan of the Kinsey Memorial Library Garden. In that dates back to 1999. So the Kinsey Memorial Garden is only 23 years old or so. And fast forward to 2016. Here is our existing site plan, which was completed by Berkshire Design Group as part of our expansion project. And this is a map of today's proposal. It's in your packet. So numbered are all the plants that the Kestra will be moving. And then here is a rendering of what the library's backyard could look like in 2025. You know, after all is said done. And we'll all have to just stay tuned to see what that ends up looking like. That's my brief. That's my brief spiel. I'm happy to show the pictures again for a longer period of time or just answer questions. Jane certainly and George know way more than I do about what's there now and about the logistics of moving this garden. Thank you Sharon. So I'd like to invite George Hicks Richards to make any comments you would like to about particulars that you're involved with and can share with us. Yeah, sure. Again, my name is George Hicks Richards. I'm the facilities supervisor for the Jones. I just think this is an incredible opportunity to preserve Carol Pove's vision in a way that we would not be able to do, given the construction project itself. And I would just add that, you know, the Kinsey garden encompasses the back of the Jones library everything that is in the front and the side near the strong historic house is not considered the Kinsey garden itself. So everything that will be moved is not visible from Amity Street, nor from Pleasant Street. So, so yeah, I mean, I just think it's a good opportunity. I think that everything that's that they're hoping to preserve, they've taken a lot of very careful thought as to what can be transplanted and what will thrive in the new location. So I think overall it's a really good plan. And I'm just happy that a lot of this is going to be able to be preserved versus not preserved. Thank you. Let's see. I'd also like to invite Jane Bryden to comment on perhaps selection of plant materials that will be moved and those that won't be moved. Jane, I don't know if you're trying to speak with us, but you're muted. Is that, is that better? Yes. Yes. Sorry. Thank you. I have been on this project idea for about a year with Carol Pope and some other garden enthusiasts who are connected with the Kestrel Trust. And we thought it'd be wonderful to move as many plants as we can to the Kestrel Trust. And we have a new home in South Amherst. I don't know how many of you have seen that or know about it, but it's beautiful spot above a seven acre pond. It's down near Atkins Farms across the way near the Holyoke Range. And so we just thought it would be a wonderful thing to move these beautiful plants to a new location that is still valued by the town of Amherst, the Kestrel Trust and the Jones Library being two important factions of the town, and that we could preserve the beauty and the love of these plants that Carol has spent so many years nurturing and watching over. We won't be able to take all of them because some of them are just too big to move. But, and we have, we hope we have a person to do the work. The pruning, the spring pruning has not been done yet, but we partly wanted to wait until this meeting was gave approval, but also we hope to have it the pruning done by before Memorial Day and then to move the plants that we're going to take in the fall. Thank you. Very helpful. Thank you all for your explanations and comments. So let's see. Ben, do you have anything more to share with us about this? I don't have anything else to share about the history of the garden or the logistics. I guess maybe when the time is right, I can explain a bit about the preservation restriction. Good. Good. Questions from commission members about the proposal? I think it's a good proposal, but I think we need to hear from Ben how it interfaces with the preservation restrictions. This doesn't fall into the 50-year category, but it is something because of the preservation restrictions that comes to us. Right. Yeah, correct. Yeah. And as I understand it, the preservation restriction is upon the building and the property, but references to restrictions on the property are scant in the restriction. So I will leave that to Ben, but my one question is that Carol Pope has been involved in the planning for the move? Yes, she has very much so. That's good to know. She's really thrilled at the prospect of having the planning to move and so that the memorial to her late husband David will continue. Pesco will keep an area that will be designated as part of this memorial garden still. It won't be the same, obviously, but it's such a wonderful array of plant materials. Yeah, they're beautiful. Nice to know that they're going together. And they would be destroyed if we don't take them. So that's why this idea came into being. So are there any other questions from commission members? I just have a quick question and it may be premature, but for the plantings that aren't going to Kestrel, is there any thought from the library, friends of the library, if there could be some kind of auction of plant or fancy plant sale that would help with buying certain kinds of books for the library or honoring the landscape of downtown Amherst? I have no clue really what that would look like, but I was at the library today and I love being in the Jones Library and I'm so excited to see so much going on in the interior of the library in terms of getting comments about what's going to happen. And there were models of the whole site and just started to feel like there was a sort of momentum building for this big undertaking. And knowing Carol Pope's own garden, I would be thrilled to dig up a little patch of vinker or something and take it to my garden and say, yeah, this came from the Jones Library or something. I really have no clue as to whether that's logistically something that's practical or I'll leave it at that. Now, Heddy, I love, thank you so much for that comment. It's beautiful. And when you talk about the momentum, yes, it's absolutely here. So our Capital Campaign Committee is really very much in like this quiet phase of their process. And I absolutely think that fundraising for landscaping will absolutely be a key part of their campaign. And I think the sky's the limit. So the plans haven't been set yet. But that certainly is there's an opportunity there. And I was just going to say that the Amherst Garden Club is also enthusiastically involved in this project and this move. So, yeah, it's a good idea to get more and more people involved with it. Thank you all. Let's see. I at this point, I will ask for public comment and I wonder if there are any attendees who wish to address the commission. All right, very well. Then is there a motion to close this public hearing? Can I still move? Thank you. And a second. Second. Thank you. Thanks, Jan and Pat. And then we'll take a just a visual hand raise in favor of closing the hearing. That is unanimous. And then we'll turn to deliberation of the Historical Commission beginning with a brief from Ben about the preservation restriction. Great. Thanks. Yeah. So just to clarify the restriction that is has been signed by the commission and the trustees and the state at this point. So it's in effect, which is a big hurdle for everyone. Just a little bit about the mechanics. The restriction is on the property and the building. However, the you know, building is really defined as the 1928, you know, original library building. And so that's kind of the historic resource that is I guess, protected by the restriction or preserved by the restriction under, I think on the second to last page, appendix F of the preservation restriction that goes through different types of alterations that are ones that are minor and are just considered routine maintenance and don't need to go before the Historical Commission. And then there's an outline for alterations that are considered major and therefore need to come before the Historical Commission for approval. And so the the action of, you know, removing a garden or, you know, garden features fall falls under that major category, which is why we're here today present, you know, having the library come to a public hearing and get approval for the relocation or transplant of the Kinsey Garden. And so the, you know, they would be seeking your approval under the restriction for that action. And but I guess just to clarify the obviously, as Sharon alluded to the Kinsey Garden was from 19, I think she said 1993 or so, or thereabouts. So isn't, you know, specifically called out in the preservation restriction, but is, you know, still part of the property that is defined. So it's a little bit confusing, but that's essentially the outline of the kind of what we're reviewing today. Hey, thank you. I, you know, just speaking personally from, well, not personally, professionally from my Dickinson Museum experience this exhibit F standard restriction guidelines is sort of, you know, it's with a preservation restriction, you almost begin to kind of breathe this stuff about the distinction between major and minor alterations. And it's, I mean, I'm always just, I'm really kind of fascinated by these distinctions and and I'm fortunate that I work at a place where all of my goals are the same goals as the preservation restriction. So sorry about that little digression, but so we're open for discussion by commission members. So any questions, concerns, the need for clarification of their of the deed restriction, Jan. I would just like to say I think it's a wonderful solution. I don't think it's going to affect the 1920 portion of the building disproportionately. And that, you know, eventually I'm sure it will be landscaped again, even if it's less densely. And I don't see why we wouldn't support it. I think it's a great idea, great plan. I agree with Jan. I think it's an eloquent solution to what was was a private donation and not part of the hist work landscaping of the of the original building. And so I think that the Kestrel Trust is certainly someone we can put our faith in to preserve the plants that they've chosen. And a public is invited to many activities at the Kestrel Trust new setting. I've been there once. And it will, you know, the honor to the person that the original garden was made to honor will continue. And I'd like to say that there will certainly be a marker that continues the memorial garden at Kestrel Trust. That will be, it will be noted when the plants are put in there. That's wonderful. I echo what Jan and Pat have said about what a wonderful plan and thoughtful plan and really one directed toward saving what's essential about the original intent and how that intent has blossomed over these decades. No pun intended. But I mean, I think it's admirable and just speaks to a wonderful partnership that has evolved and found a most productive and mutually beneficial solution. So I think it's fantastic. Then let's see. Then do we, let's see, so our procedural action right now is to approve the plan, the approved, the proposed plan. Or, Ben, is there some other wording that is necessary? That's my understanding. It's approved the plan as presented today to relocate the garden. Okay. All right. Well, I, you know, I seldom do this. I'll make a motion to approve the plan for the relocation of the Kinsey Memorial Garden as presented. Second. Thank you. Any further discussion? No. Okay. Then we'll come to a vote. Patricia Oth. In favor. Robin Fordham. In favor. Becky Lockwood. In favor. Janet Markort. Fine with me. These are my things tonight. Sorry. In favor. Yes, whatever. You should stick with fine with me. At least for tonight. Heady startup. In favor. And Jane Wald. In favor. All right. Well, I think we're, so we're unanimous in that approval. We appreciate your coming this evening to the Historical Commission to share this plan with us and admire all the work that's gone into coming to this outcome. Thank you all so much. Your comments are really awesome. Thank you. Have a great night. Thank you. Thank you all. Yeah. Great. All right. Let's see. So I think we are now at items. Yeah. Not anticipated. Yeah. Are there, Ben, do you have anything to? I was just going to add, I guess the first item on the, for the public meeting is the preservation plan update. And I was just going to let folks know that Nate Malloy, myself and Chris Brestrup met with Shannon Walsh in person, which was nice last week or two weeks ago, to kind of kick off the preservation plan process. Shannon and I then probably spent an hour driving around Amherst and kind of gave her a tour of the highlights for the preservation plan and historical sites around town. So she work is underway. Shannon's first few steps are to look at some other town's preservation plans and then to kind of review the R2005 plan carefully and then kind of work from there to begin talking with the Historical Commission, with the local Historic District Commission, about setting priorities and goals. And then, you know, in terms of actual content, she's going to be looking into kind of the history of Amherst, that section from the 2005 plan, but then kind of trying to fill in the gaps within there, both, you know, specifically looking at underrepresented populations, African-American, Irish-Americans, Indigenous populations trying to integrate that history into the narrative, which is obviously very important. But we're not asking her to rewrite the whole section. I think we want to have her focus her time on strategies and goals and implementation, you know, the implementation matrix we had talked about. So I don't want her to get bogged down in that. But kind of that's the work outlined for the next few weeks or months, probably. She is interested in coming to the next Commission meeting. So I will let her know the date. And I guess, Jan, you weren't here when we set the meeting date, but we decided on June 22, Wednesday. So I hope that works, because we continued the hearing for that date. So, yeah. Fine with me. Okay. So unless there's any questions or comments, I guess we'll just kind of wait to talk to Shannon at that point. Maybe I can come up with a few, you know, I think the meeting with Shannon next month will really just be a first in a series of meetings. So, you know, there will be other opportunities to discuss goals and priorities and get more feedback. But so I don't, I guess it'll just kind of be an introduction next next month. That's good. Great news. Yeah, we're excited. Yeah. Yeah. Jan. I'm wondering, Ben, whether this might be a good thing to start to sort of chronicle in the newspaper, the process, the fact that we set her to work on this. And, you know, we're trying to raise awareness with the tone of what we do and that people own historic properties and we don't want them to be neglected and stuff. So maybe it might be a nice way to kind of segue into some of those things by talking about this process of identifying stuff. I don't know. Is there somebody that could, you could ask them if they would have a sort of semi-regular feature like every six months or something on how it's going or, I don't know, or aspects of it that might be interesting for the town homeowners to know or, you know, or barn owners to know? Um, well, my first thought was just to do a press release, you know, saying that we're, you know, underway with the preservation plan and, you know, whether or not the Gazette would pick it up. We can at least post it if you are like in the news category of the town. And what's the name of the person in town all now if she does all the kind of... Yeah, Breonna does all the communications. Yeah. Maybe she could do something with it. I don't know. It's just, I would like to think that at some point we're going to get to where we are much more transparent and proactive in our media outreach to the town so that when we say things like your house is 75 years old or almost there, since that number has been changed, watch out, you know, and we want you to keep it in good shape and don't tell your bar down or whatever that they see it coming. It isn't out of the blue, you know, that this has been something that we've been keeping the town of Rust. How does everybody feel about that? So I think it's a great idea. I think it's really important and I have just a little bit more to say about that later. But yeah, I think I think we've been struggling with this kind of transparency and this ability to communicate especially with property owners. And so I'm all for great. Not to give you something else to do, Ben, but maybe you can hand it over to Breonna and we can, you know, help her understand what we're doing or what's important about that or something. Becky. Oh, just to add to that, we had talked about getting the word out about CPA funding. And that goes along nicely with, you know, letting people know that there is some help there, not just that we're going to hold them to certain standards. Maybe. That's, I think that's a good point. And I think what we've, what we are, something that we need to think through a bit more is how the CPA committee or commission, I can't remember if it's a committee or and the town council are thinking about CPA fund priorities for historic preservation. I think, I think I'm not certain that we're all on the same page about that. So yeah, I wouldn't want to promise anything that won't be supported at the higher level. Yeah. Although, you know, the, I mean, yeah, the historical commission has been wanting to open CPA funds to private owners. I'm not sure that the CPA committee is, well, they were two years ago. Remember, they were the ones two years ago who sent out to all the districts that they wanted people to know about it and apply. I think it's town council that's got cold feet right now. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So well, maybe head, head of your Robin, maybe you could comment on this. I, I feel like I'm like a couple of steps removed, but I just know that this year there's been a bit of what, what are you wanting to do? I mean, from my perspective, what happened this year was that private owners, but I mean, there are a lot of things that people don't understand like they don't understand what the public benefit is. They don't understand that you don't have to be able to access the interior of a building to have a public benefit. I don't understand that. So yes, I'm, you know, deferred maintenance issues with old historic houses, you know, we're going to cost more to maintain the integrity of the building. You're going to have a big ticket item. I think probably what surprised people, it wasn't so much on the CPA committee. It was once it got to the finance committee that because those two projects were so big, you know, I think they're fine with the $10,000 project for a church and, you know, I don't know how much the stained glass windows were, but it was the dollar amount that seemed to raise everyone's sense of light. Oh, is this what we want to be funding? But from my perspective, the CPA committee is supposed to vote as a slate. And if there's a question of, you know, we have other projects that we need CPA funds for, that has to be presented at the CPA committee level so that the committee can decide, well, you know, do we want to hold money in reserve? And if we do, which of these projects do we want to hold back? So, you know, Pickleball would have been an easy project to hold back this year as opposed to historic houses that are continuing to deteriorate. And that's, you know, we're still not at the finish line with them, right? Is that right then? Has town council approved? They have, yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it's just having, I think it's just having somebody to kind of consistently be able to consistently follow, you know, the years that I've been on the committee, it had never happened before. But there was, well, I mean, of course, the Jones Library was a huge amount of money, but that, you know, the public benefit for that is so obvious, you know, so you just get into the weeds with all these definitions and kind of procedural things. And I don't know if it, I don't know if it, I think I froze for a second there. I don't know if it had anything to do with I think it was both the big ticket item and just having these different types of projects that are not not like, you know, so much of it is so much of all of the stuff is like, do I like it or I don't I like it, you know, do I like giving money to a condo association or don't I do I like the building that they're saving or don't I as opposed to, you know, what are the definitions of the programs and, you know, what are the proper procedures and and so it might just have been the fluke of the year that it became kind of more of an issue. Well, maybe CPA is something that could be saved for closer to a deadline for that. But just to start media coverage of what we're doing, I think that the preservation plan is a good way to ease into it. And I'd like, you know, I think I'd like to suggest if it is covered as much as possible in our news. Yeah, oh, but I would say actually that you're getting I would agree that getting the word out for CPA because our applicants really need to come meet with us much sooner in the process that, you know, so far the process has been the word goes out and people rush to get an application in with estimates from people, you know, in a two week period and we don't get the you know, the most thorough applications that we could and we don't get to address issues like we would like to do beforehand like people to come to the historical commission for they submit their CPA proposal. So that would be helpful to get that word out beforehand. Yeah, perhaps, but I would see that as a separate, a separate topic, a separate subject for the news. And I mean, it might be parallel, but I don't think it's wrapped up in this same item. Good, good discussion. Yeah, this is this is important for the future of this historical commission and speaking of that, there's an item about historical commission membership that I need to note. And one, one thing is that Catherine Davis has had to step away from the historical commission because of needing to relocate. So that's a that's a sad loss. The second thing is that I am terming out as of June 30. And so our next meeting will be my last. And that means there needs to be consideration of a new commission chair and vice chair. And, and now, Ben, as, as we now realize, perhaps supplementing the membership of the commission. So I just want to put those things out there and ask you to sort of consider what you, you know, for leadership for the commission. So we'll need two people will need wonder place you and wonder place Catherine. Otherwise, we're at full capacity right now. Yeah, you know, we had been, we had been under capacity, you know, through the pandemic. I think at least one other person would be necessary. Two other persons would be ideal. Yeah. So Jane, does the town do any advertising or invitation to apply for the historical commission? They do. They do advertising for all the all citizen committees and commissions. I don't recall. I think it might be at a particular time of year. Is that actually I just talked to the town manager's office today and there's I guess there's a lot of vacancies in town, including the local historic district and the historical commission. So they're going to be putting out an announcement soon just to advertise. I often find the, you know, maybe people respond to those broad announcements, but I feel like sometimes more, you know, personalized recruitment or helps kind of nudge people to feel like they can do it or they, you know, want to or yeah. Any contact in the preservation program at UMass? Is there anybody there that could be tapped? I only know people from my time in the landscape architecture department, which is slightly affiliated with historic reservation there. But I yeah, I think last time I maybe I developed an email list where I just kind of blasted out emails to historical society and UMass historical programs. And, you know, sometimes those get lost, but you know, yeah, if you all have anyone in mind, that sometimes helps. So one is I think in the preservation program or possibly in a landscape architecture program. Okay. I'm not really sure. Anne Marshall is, I think. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Her partner Mike Hankey was on the historical commission chair for a while. So Anne might have good contacts in the preservation program. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And I just say that I am supposed to go off in 23. So one year after you, Jane, I'm not quite sure why after since that'll be my eighth year. But I will have to step down in December because next spring, I'm teaching three courses at two institutions and it's going to be more than I can handle. So at the end of this year, I will bow out as well, which actually would be a good stag or maybe a few people are coming in and there's six months and then somebody comes in six months. But just to plan ahead a little. Okay. Wow. Three courses at two institutions. I don't know why, you know, people are just so persuasive. I think I'm really susceptible to flattery. I'm learning and late in life. Don't flatter me to stay on the commission. Oh, boy. Well, thanks everyone. I'm just amazed we got through all these hearings in the way we did. So thank you very much. Thank you, Jane, for your excellent facilitation. So we have our next meeting June 22nd at 6.30. Now let's see. Public comment. I was supposed to allow for that. Yep. Yes. Looking at the agenda, that's all. That's right. We've done so much public comment. I just sort of thought we'd done it, but let's see if there are any. I knew Hilda would be there. She never lets us down. I wanted to talk about when you were talking about preservation. Am I on? Yes, you're on. If we want to be official, just give us your name and address. Oh, I'm Hilda Greenbaum and I've been attending all your meetings for a while. I'll write them up in the mrstindy.org, which is what I want to give you a plug for. I have discovered that there's a huge ignorance with so many new people in town about local history and local architecture. And I did run a photo essay after Eric Ridoyo's talk of all pictures of the interior of Jones Library. And I'm sort of thinking with regard to your getting the word out on preservation, which is sorely needed. How about, and I'll work with people with it, though, a photo essay. I'm thinking maybe about William Fennel Pratt and a couple of his houses or more, particularly Roswell Field Putnam, because we've got, I think, 98 houses of Roswell Field Putnam in the town of Amherst, and open people's eyes to what what do you mean when you say historically or architecturally significant? Have a picture of the house and have a couple of sentences so that people wouldn't have a lot to read, but can sort of soak in the idea of what are we trying to preserve? What is this heritage? Because they don't teach art history and they don't teach music and they don't teach any of these. They don't even teach Henry Wadsworth, one fellow, even in the private schools. I discover from my grandchildren, they don't know who, you know, local Massachusetts authors are, Massachusetts painters or whoever. So to get down into some of the weeds, maybe every week we could show a picture of a house or two houses and a couple of sentences of why they are historically important and what are the features of these houses that we want to preserve. I just want to put that out there because I think that would really do a public service. And well, we got good readership now on the Elmerstundi.org. You know, several thousand people tune into that every single week. Hilda, I think people have already commented about things that you've put before us like the library and some of the interior features because I was looking at the comments today. And that's clear that that's starting, as I said before, to kind of build its own kind of momentum. But I'd love to help you. I would love to have you. Call me up and we'll work on it. I nominate Hilda to take a place on historical commission to replace Catherine. I applied for the historical commission and they don't want any part of me. And my husband had been on twice. He was back on in the 70s and did the East Street district and wrote the Lost Elmerst with John Martin and a couple other people that mostly work on Lost Elmer. And then he was on with Jim Walt again. So I mean, I've been doing this for 60 years now, born on 62, since I married him. We started this when he bought his house in 1959 in Schultzberg and save an old house. So, you know, it's one of the things that I value. But I found other people, when you go to rent an old house or sell an old house, people don't get it. They want to, they want to. Nobody wants to restore anything. My son, he saved a lot of old houses. Hilda, I think I will call you up. I'm also just realizing that I'm sitting here in shock that Jane and Jan will like not next year, not be on our commission. And you know, there's one thing that's the history of Amherst. And then there's another thing which is the history of the Amherst Historical Commission and the sort of the kind of institutional, I know you don't, but I mean, I think there's a kind of institutional memory and a kind of facility to be really to give things, to discern in a way about all of these things that takes time, you know, and takes experience. And, and, you know, most of the time I just feel like I'm walking where angels fear to tread being a commission member. And the idea that not both of you will not be a part of this is just, just so sad to me. I agree with you. They're guiding lights. And they bring experience that is so valuable. So, you know, we'll have accolades to come in the future. But this is stunning news. Well, you all know that you are right now, building the experience. You know, we have built in our own time. There's going to be no lack of experience. So do not fear. Look at the old time. Everything is dying off though. That's the problem. The people who knew things and the people who knew how to do things, like jack up a house, they're gone or move a house. I guess some of them are around, but Dick Hicks moved my house. And Barry Roberts is doing a great job at that. Yeah. He's found somebody to do it. All right. Well, thank you, Hilda, for your, for your constant presence and well, I try to preservation. Well, I think by putting pictures, even of the garage of the cross the street from them, that they want to tear that down, give people an idea of, you know, we don't want to save everything. Some things are worth destroying. The garage in back of 285 Main Street, which was voted, allowed to be demolished. Okay. Thank you. So, is there any more business for us tonight? Yeah, Ben, are there unanticipated items? I guess I'll just share an update for the CPA projects. The headstone work is underway. I've talked about that. The fence at West Cemetery, which was part of this year's CPA money, that bid was just released. We invited a few firms to put in quotes for the new fence. So it's going to match the rest of the black iron fence around West Cemetery. And then I've been working with Meg Gage to put out the request for quotes for the archeological work at Mill River. So we hope to have that underway. The funds don't become available until July 1st, but we can still get someone under contract so they can hit the ground running on July 1st. So I think, yeah, that's it. And then the women's club, I met with them today actually in person and they're excited and are, you know, going to review the grant agreement and didn't see, or they did review the grant agreement and didn't see any major issues and are seemingly willing to sign it and eager to get to work. And then the folks at the, and I think, Jane, you've been in touch with Catherine Lombardi there to talk about some of the ins and outs of the preservation restriction. It, yeah. Informally. Informally, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And then the conky house is a little bit, they just have some internal kind of things to work out, I guess, with the board. There's some questions they want to just review the restriction a little bit further. They, their their structure, legal structure is a bit more complicated just because they're a residential and a commercial homeowners association. And there's some questions just about how the restriction, you know, the restriction would really just be on the conky house would not affect the rest of the condo association. But there's just some question just they need assurance that that would be the case, which so they're, we're working on them with that. But so, yeah, well, keep you updated on that on that project as well. Hedy. Just one bit of new business. Robin is heading back into town from her studies and we were hoping that you would vote her back onto CPA so that I would step down. I feel like this year I've kept the seat warm for her. And I don't know whether it needs to be on the agenda for the next meeting. I do know that the CPA committee is meeting in early June. I'm perfectly willing to go to that meeting as our representative but I would hope that we could smoothly transition back to Robin being our representative. Okay, thank you. Let's definitely put it on the agenda because it does need a vote. Yeah, if you open to be the chair, Hedy, that's perfect. You walked right into that one. I did. But I was hoping you'd walk into it. I don't think I'll have enough time to get all both feet in, so. I wish I wish you could reconsider, Jan. I think it would be great. I remember teaching two, three courses in two different places and I don't envy you. I've done it myself in architectural history and I wouldn't do it now. And I know that I need a few more years. Living in Amist, you know, just to kind of know. You've been here longer than I have. No, I've only been here five years, barely. Okay, so I've been here eight. It's not a whole lot longer. We can have a discussion next month. Yeah, maybe we should leave Robin off the CPA so she can become chair. I mean, we need to balance all this. Y'all think about this. To think about it, Robin. All good points. Think about it, Robin. I vote to a Jan. All right. So one last thing I want to that I forgot to say earlier about ending my term is that I really do hope that time will allow me to help with projects, especially mindless data projects. If there are those, keep me in mind. Glad to hear that, Jane. I don't want to lose connection with you or Jan. I'll be happy after next spring to help with projects too. Just not until mid-May of next year. But I'll be happy to. In fact, if there's mindless data projects that Jane and I can do over a bottle of wine sent to us. That's perfect. Yeah. And if you don't, if you can't think of any, just make something up. How about if we just start cataloging parts? And you and I need to talk about Barnes, but we can do that over a bottle of wine. Absolutely. Let me know when. All right. Well, back to Heddy's motion. I second. Yay. Okay. It's. Time to vote. Debatable. All in favor. Yay. Okay. Great. All right. Good night, everyone. Thanks so much. Good night, everybody. Thank you all. Bye-bye.