 Hey Dan, hey Justin, hey Erica. Can I drop the meeting link in the chat? I think we need two scribes so today, so if anyone can help us scribe, if you put your name down, that'd be great. All right, looks like we have a small group today. I'm guessing a lot of the work islands we've done last week. So, so I guess we will let's spend some time with going around and then doing check-ins and then we can talk about a couple of things as well as figuring out some of the coupon plans. So if you haven't already, I'm gonna repace the link into the meeting chat. Please add yourself to attendance and if there's anyone that can help scribe, that'd be great. All right, so I guess let's start with check-ins. Dan, do you want me to start? Yeah, kind of a little bit more personal update. Self-identified folks no longer at PayPal still in kind of figuring out what's next and dealing with that. So the department that I joined there got shut down so got re-argued and so starting the year off with some fun. All right. Justin, oh no, update. Okay, Martin, no update. I just wanna go through this on the Zoom as well because I think some of the names are not in there. No, Ray, Erica? Hey, not much update from me or for the Kubernetes side. We've been pretty much similar, kind of just roll it getting back into the new year. Working on policy violation resource type, that's if anyone's interested in that, we'll have a meeting later today at 3 p.m. Pacific time if anyone's interested. That's all I've got. All right, thank you. Okay, Rob, that's on the local town road. Can you hear me? Yep. No, no updates here. I've just been off and on, joining the meeting there a week and keeping updated. I haven't heard from anybody on the Washington DC events that are going on yet. I know that you've been having some meetings. I haven't received any meeting invites. So whoever was heading that up, certainly you can reach out to me. And also, I'm, go ahead. Is this with the financial user group? Are you talking about that or something else? Maybe it was with them. I don't know, I've heard of a, there was some kind of event that they were kicking off in Washington DC. I don't know who it was that was heading that up, but let's see if I can find out. I wanted to be involved with that in some of the planning. And then of course, I certainly like to be involved with anybody that is doing any of the validation for any of the new projects coming on board in the CNCF. I'd like to be involved with that to kind of shadow and kind of learn. So. Well, the best way to do that is to, we have a bunch of projects that are at different processes, like different states of the process for the security assessments. I'll post a link to some of that here in the chat. And you can just go into one of those projects, hopefully one where there isn't already like five people listed as signed up, and just put your name, say you're interested, and then we'll add you to the list. Okay. Cameron, looking at the notes, if you signed in on the agenda and notes document, I see Mark Underwood previously discussing something about Washington. That's the area of the world that he's in. So you may want to reach out to Mark. Okay, sounds good. Thanks so much. Yeah. And just so everybody knows, Sousa is also hiring. So you just lost your job at PayPal, if you're interested in an opportunity to join Sousa and our application delivery team in development, we have openings there. So. Appreciate it. All right. All right. Sorry, I don't have any updates for myself. I just added my name to the list. All right, cool. Matthew, I accomplished on Sousa last time. I think it's Matthew Gassi. Hi there, Matthew. Jess, close enough. I didn't know I never get to the first time. Hi, I'm just a relative newcomer here. I got the idea to join after meeting some of your colleagues at the KubeCon San Diego Conference last year and was just looking out here, plus on your Slack channel on how best to contribute. In my spare time, I'm doing some work on creating a hardening profiles for Alpine Linux and Debian, as well as generic OPA and Weave L3 policies, sort of like the start of a homemade security best practices thing that I wanted to contribute to and build on. So I was wondering if I could just reach out to this community and see if that overlaps with any existing efforts and that's the direction I should push them. So it goes somewhere instead of being a homemade project that lives for a year on GitHub and then becomes deprecated. Yeah, that's cool. I think Justin and I were working on some stuff around the landscape, which I think is kind of a little bit broader, but I think parts of it definitely, it's about, okay, why the processes in the hardening and stuff like that. So I think Justin and I will probably give a presentation to a group on this at some point and do some sharing. But I think that's probably a good place for what you're working on. Could I reach out to you via email after the meeting just to maybe grab a link or some additional direction or points of contact? Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Okay, I think that's everyone. Well, actually, Michael, it looks like he doesn't have audio connected. All right, so before we jump into the agenda, any items from partner sex and working groups, sex off, policy, security, audit, and this, all right. Cool. So I think we only have a couple of items today to discuss the first one being time zone location. I shouldn't be sharing my screen. All right. So this one's around time zone location. So this is really around making the security meeting accessible for people in different time zones. So I think there was a bigger issue with folks in China that wanna get into this. So there are a couple of suggestions there out there. I think one of the suggestions was we should rotate the meetings around coupons so that we can get some engagement there. So since we have, you know, coupon EU coming up, maybe we should kind of shift the meetings a little bit to see whether we can accommodate. But I guess just thoughts on this, especially if you know you're someone in the Uber region, like is this timing okay or is that more preferable timing? I think every time we switch time zones like this, we're gonna have the drop off in some of the regular participants and we're gonna have a shift in institutional knowledge about it and I'm not sure that we're ever gonna get that back when it rotates back. Because for instance, if I'm out of this for six months because I can't make the calls and then I, you know, I may have kind of moved on and started doing other things and so on. So I'm a little concerned, I think having additional meetings or having, you know, like subgroups and having people bridge those is good but I don't think it should just pull still move. Yeah, I think I agree with that. Yeah, I like the idea on additional meetings maybe once a month and the three different times zones or something like that. I believe that's what sick docs does. They have one meeting for Asia site that happens once a month and yeah, usually in the evening. Okay, that sounds like a good idea. And I guess that's mainly for Asia time zone, right? Because Euro time zone seems, I guess it's also evening time, it's around 6 p.m. Yeah, maybe we can, let's figure it out and then we can possibly create one or two more. Dan, what are your thoughts on this? So I'm a huge proponent and kind of set up the current timings for these meetings and choose proponent of consistency. It's how you build momentum in, you know, any sort of community activity. You know, that said, you know, now that we have, you know, a regular cadence of, you know, working group, working meetings like this one, you know, having one of those a month align closely with, you know, our various, you know, geographically distributed groups and align that with Q-com sounds really interesting. And, you know, what I'd love to do eventually is, you know, to federate, you know, having groups where you, you know, you delegate and have a contingent of folks that are meeting regularly in, you know, a European friendly time zone and, you know, a Asia-Pacific time zone. You know, would be fantastic. And then, you know, a smaller contingent of folks, you know, would be able to, you know, coordinate across the, you know, various communities. Okay, I'll just write this out. To the point of adding into this whole meeting, you know, is there anyone who's like, yeah, you know, five or six meetings, you know, in addition to, you know, the time it takes for, you know, contribution and, you know, participating in Slack and, you know, on GitHub, is that, you know, a commitment of time that anyone's like, yeah, I can do that. Because I actually get a little bit uncomfortable and, you know, my ability to commit that time, you know, if you push into that, you know, more than one additional meeting, because I have, you know, chair meetings and TOC coordination meetings. So, you know, yet another meeting, you know, kind of pushes my boundaries a bit personally. I think one way to start out small might be to have a meeting that's almost entirely offset from this one, like, you know, 11 hours or 13 hours or something like that apart and to have it maybe only every other week or something so that it's less frequent. And then we can sort of see how that goes and channel things between, I mean, we all travel from time to time. I'm gonna be in Malaysia next week, right? So if there were a security meeting that was offset by 11 hours, I could probably join that. Right, and then, you know, and we could decide if one or more, maybe, you know, one of the chairs can pop into those meetings or at least one of the chairs slash tech leads and sort of always be in those meetings in the beginning and then maybe we get a tech lead in that community and who always attend those calls and, you know, we can just sort of see. Justin, would you be open to facilitating? I know you're dragging one of the chairs that tech leads in. But, you know, to kick that off, you know, beyond, you know, showing up, you know, in those first iterations, would you, you know, be the anchor? Because sometimes you just need, you know, an individual in a seat and, you know, somewhere for folks to go and discover. I mean, if it's like, you know, like showing up to help to run the meeting the first time, I don't mind doing that, especially if it's at a day in time when I'll actually be awake at whatever time this is. But yeah, in general, I don't mind participating in the first or certainly one of the early ones and won't mind doing it when travel and things like that mean that it's convenient. What if, so we have this kind of intro deck that we're working on and updating again for KubeCon. What if, you know, those sort of off-hours meetings, you know, had a default of, hey, we're gonna introduce folks to what we do. You know, if someone's available to take on that time slot, here's the script, here's the presentation, we're gonna, you know, walk everybody through that, have everybody, you know, kind of go around the room, introduce themselves, and, you know, maybe at the end ask, you know, anybody if, you know, if they're interested in coming back. Well, I mean, basically we just show them this video and this is how we run our working meetings. And then I think having a model that's similar to the one we have where if there are presentations of interest, then those happen in every other meeting or so. And then there can be working meetings other time. Like I've had someone reach out to me this week and ask me, say, hey, I'm in New Zealand, but I wanna contribute to security assessments. And so we're trying to plan a time next week to talk about that. So that would be, like, it would be a perfect thing for that meeting, sorry, go ahead. So actually, one thought that I had was maybe we can, if it comes up, we can pick a security assessment of a project that's in the Asia region and then possibly have a team around it, which will, you know, kind of build a community. And eventually if we do, like, at QCon Shanghai, we could have demos to co-present at QCon, yeah. Assuming there are still people living in Shanghai at that time. I'm sure there will. A lot of people there. Yeah. If not anywhere else. I mean, there's also a lot of Kubernetes forums that are happening nowadays as well around the Asia area. But I don't think those, I don't think they have community tracks there. So it may be a bit tough. Community track in China, the last time there was, Liz, you know, took and ran the intro session there for us. I don't know if they changed the format this year, but I would expect a continued presence of the local groups. I was, I did the one, one of the years before as well. And I think the, there was quite a good outcome at the session. It was kind of awkward because a lot of them that were interested in it and couldn't actually do the meetings, so. Right. So it sounds like, yeah, I'm just thinking, like going forward, maybe what I can do is, since I created this suggestion, unless someone else wants to do, they could save it as create a initial PR and then we can try to build it. And yeah, and then, I mean, it would just be extension of this, right? But just to, just to move things over. Yeah, thanks for, for pushing for this. This is, you know, one of those, it's one of the big challenges of, you know, global open source communities is, you know, you fundamentally, you know, need to get everybody in and find a way for them to participate. But, you know, you're contingent of, you know, mostly volunteers, you know, can't spread themselves thinner than they already are. So, you know, bootstrapping, you know, groups that can support local communities is, you know, an interesting literature challenge. Yeah, right. Sounds good. So any other comments on this? If not, I think we'll go ahead with the rest of the agenda. Brandon, when you talk to folks in, you know, the Shanghai meeting, are folks, you know, actively participating in, you know, kind of meetup style functions or do folks tend to, you know, kind of do their work and then, you know, you know, deal with their home stuff and not, you know, sort of participate in program communities? It doesn't seem like that big a thing. At least chatting around with people. But it may also just be regional. I don't think I understand the community that well. You need to kind of make a statement about it. But it wasn't something that seemed to come up when I was chatting with people. Right, yeah. I don't want to go into the assumption that, you know, everyone does meetups, you know, we're just, you know, programmers love to get together and, you know, share thoughts and share our experiences. You know, because, you know, having lived in Europe, you know, the habits are slightly different. Opportunities are different too. All right, so the next item that we have is, I just chatted with Sarah about this is to try and put in a session. So I believe we have currently one session for the intro and then Justin and I were talking about doing some of the landscape stuff and the deep dive. So I think that there would be more than one topic that we put into deep dive. So I'm not sure whether anybody, if there's some interest with us, you know, from the policy group or some other projects, assessments. If I think we can take a few topics, we can have enough material for a longer session. Do we have assigned individuals for both the sessions? So for intro currently on the list is Sarah and JJ, I think. We don't actually have a session on deep dive yet. Well, at least it's not on the schedule. But Justin and I were talking about presenting our work on the landscape. But I'm not sure whether that will fill up the entire half an hour. I hope not. Yeah, exactly. I think it's a good discussion topic and good thing to show, but I hope it's more of, here's what we're doing, let's get some thoughts and maybe have quick discussion and then something like, you know, that'll take maybe 10 minutes to slot. And we probably need one or two plants in the audience to ask a first question or to make a first suggestion because otherwise everyone's too scared in that context. Well, and just to confirm, this is Kappos, not Cormac. Is this Kappos? Yeah, yes. Right, okay. Cormac is probably gonna be pretty hard to wrangle given his new responsibilities. Right? All right, so we have the speakers. Do you want anybody in sort of a content development support? It's a great time to, you know, enlist, you know, enlist. Sorry, I'm missing a little of the context. Do you mean for the landscape, Dan, or do you mean in general? Right, just to help, you know, support the, you know, getting slides together and just getting everything ready. Do you feel like, you know, you have a sense of what goes in content-wise or would you like any sort of support? I've had multiple conversations with Amy and Luke and I am not, every time I end the conversation I'm sure things will be starting to happen because it feels like that's what we've agreed to. And then I will post a follow-up message in Slack and I'll hear like something else that seems like maybe it's not happening. So I don't really know, it could just be like, I'm not asking the question in the right way or something like that, but we can probably talk about this offline and maybe there's a way for you to help, but we don't need to take up time in this meeting to talk about that, I think. Got it. Oh, but as for content itself, our philosophy has been we, Brandon and I have done effectively something like maybe a fifth or so, a rough draft of like a fifth of what the eventual content will be. But it's a coherent fifth that gives you an idea of what the whole thing will look like. And so what we wanna do is we wanna get this in a format that people can give us like really meaningful feedback on and look at and understand. And then assuming that we all think this is a good thing, then we'll go and actually, you know, flush out and have a ton more work that happens by a lot of different people. Great, so it's really just sort of adapting what we've already written down into, you know, some slides so we can, you know, talk to it. So in terms of content development and slide where it doesn't sound like there's an extraordinary amount of work. No, I mean, what we'd actually like to do is do, like basically three pages of what the eventual web page will look like with no fancy animations, no nothing, right? But that's our concept is we'd like to do that and then be able to show that and then talk about, because there's sort of an overall page, there's sort of a quick look at a topic and then there's a detailed look at a topic. So that's really what we're planning to do is we wanna show those three things and then show some of our thoughts around how we're handling different cases in the detail discussion, which is the document that Brandon is showing right now. Yeah, let me base that into that. But also, like it's, I'm not trying to tell people don't put comments in and things, but we're not trying to wordsmith this yet. We more want people to like to show the concept, make sure the concept is valuable because this same information can go lots of places and be presented in lots of ways. And we'd have different emphasis and things like that. So if what we show makes sense and is intuitive to people and so on, then we sort of know a path. But if we spend a lot of time wordsmithing this and then go out in a different direction, then that effort wouldn't have been well spent. So we kind of don't wanna waste other people's time too much at this point. That's reasonable. All right. So I think the items left first there. So for the deep dive, if you have any topics I would like from the policy side maybe we can do something on assessments. Let me know. I think I'm gonna try and put together abstract so we can submit it and then have it on the side. Policy, we have a full deep dive as well, but we can maybe summarize a few points and add it in if you'd like. I'll discuss at the meeting today. Okay. Yeah, that sounds good. All right. I think the last few points is already covered. It's just kind of several PRs that are kind of like almost complete. They just require approval from a chat. So, you know, one, this is on the supply chain catalog and this one's on security review tooling. And I think one adjacent item to this is, sorry for the knee up, perfect. Another adjacent item to this is a PR that I've been working on, which is introduces co-owners. So the main idea for this is that we would have co-owners for certain things, right? So it's like Santiago is the one that's, let me hide the comments that's. So for example, you know, Justin would be the person with a little bit of assessment. So anything that requires, that goes into assessment directory as long it would require Justin, not one of the chats to approve it. But that way also, you know, we could, how it would be enforced is that anything that touches the directory will automatically flag these people for reviews, right? And I think in this way, we could delegate some of the review responsibility so that the co-chats don't have to to look at every single PR and approve it. The only issue. Very much in line with what we've been trying to do with that. So, you know, I'm very supportive of us, continuing to build and extend trust and work with folks who want to take on this responsibility. You're great. Yeah. It has been a life changer, y'all. The meeting facilitator thing. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. We have that proof point that, you know, that delegation has, you know, helped our core folks and, you know, extended, you know, active contribution. All right. So I think that's all that we had for today's agenda. So does anyone have additional topics to discuss? All right. So we're beginning another 20 minutes back then of 25 minutes. Awesome. We should make you facilitate more often. All right. That's all right. All right. Bye. Thank you, everyone. Bye. Thanks, everybody. Bye-bye. Take care.