 So. Great. Thank you so much for joining us again for let's talk and thank you for being supportive of the Bedford Playhouse. And we're delighted to have tonight. Jen guide to Ceciliano for what proves to be what will prove to be a very, very interesting talk. And one of her colleagues, Jessica Silverman. So I'm going to let them introduce themselves. They're going to give us a short presentation. Then I'm going to come back on and we'll have questions. And go from there. And thank you so much. I wanted to mention one thing we were just talking about the fact that some of you have signed up in groups and you're, you may be watching this as a group. If you'd like your email to be input and so that we can follow up with you and send you materials, we'd be happy to do that if you just let us know. So anyway, without further ado, Jen and Jessica, thank you so much. Thank you for having me Vanessa and Bedford Playhouse. I'm so thrilled to be here and to be talking about what I find to be so important, which is mental health and mental illness. My name is Jen Gata Ceciliano, and I am an artist. I'm a writer and a podcaster creator and host of not as crazy as you think podcast. I am also trying to get my not as crazy as you think book out there. So the story that I'll be talking about tonight is woven into that manuscript. So but I'm thrilled to have this conversation and be a part of this talk because it is so important, especially today's age. Hello, everyone. First of all, Jen, thank you for having me and the Bedford Playhouse. My name is Jessica Silverman. I am a mentor and wellness expert for spiritual women, seeking freedom to live in complete alignment in mind body spirit emotions for mental wellness and anxiety therapy using a very whole body healing approach. I personally stepped away from a six figure income back seven years ago, working in venture capital to start my own venture and podcasting is what inspired that. So I'm also the host of the Alive podcast. It's an acronym, which stands for alignment of love, inspiration, vitality, and energy. Jen. Jen. Hi, can you hear me now? Yes. Okay. So I should I just go into it? I'll tell you a little bit about my myself then. Basically, I had a hell of an experience when I was 22 years old and it pretty much created the trajectory of my life. And in ways that I would never have wanted, but that's why I'm here to tell you about it. So 1994 days during which, you know, there were really no cell phones available or easily accessible internet. And I decided to go to India a friend of mind, this asked me to visit his homeland. And I had really no business going. I wasn't the type to have any experience with travel. My family never had any experience or travel. But I said, you know what? I want to write a story. I'm going to go over there at the time I was living in New York City, working at the museum, natural American Museum, natural history, and, you know, showcasing my artwork. And I was involved with theater. I was doing a show. So I just I wanted to see something more. I was I grew up in a family that was immigrants. And I said, you know what? I feel like there's something out there for me to see. And I got that I went to India. And I saw things that I never saw before. So it was a cultural shock. At first, I didn't really experience the shock, I experienced a shock when I came home to New York. But there was the place that I stayed in New Delhi, it was a Brahmin home. And there was a little bit of a cultural misunderstanding. I was asked to leave the house, something so simple, I called my friend arrogant in front of his parents. But that was big because I was coming from, you know, being a freeze and swinging, you know, feminine energy in New York City. And this was a very traditional home. So I was asked to leave. But unfortunately, I started experiencing extreme abdominal pain. And it ended up turning into like a three day affair with, you know, absolute dehydration, vomiting, diarrhea, very extreme debilitation. And I was on my own just pretty much roaming the streets of New Delhi hoping to have someone help me. And I did find a wonderful gentleman who was in the student class, willing to help me, you know, and get me to my emergency flight home on time. It was the ultimate trauma. I didn't know if I was going to survive. I was on my knees praying to be saved. And just hoping that some kind of voice would guide me and wonderfully so that's exactly what happened. I heard these voices. And they led me to my plane home. On the flight, I was still extremely disabled, still sick, going to the bathroom to and fro. And then suddenly I had an experience where I took one last inhale and I breathed out and I didn't inhale again. I felt like I came out of my body. And it was what many people call in your death experience. I saw my whole life flash before me. I realized that this was it and I was thrilled to come home. But what I was told was that it wasn't my time. If I was to die then my parents would have just been devastated because they didn't want me to go over there. I came home then, you know, I came back into my body. And basically it became a nightmare after that. I came into New York when I saw the difference between the reality of the poverty of the other areas of the world and what New York City was saying was most important, which was make sure you have that, you know, if you don't have that moisturizer, you're going to die without it, you know. And I just, what we called the disconnect, it wasn't a disconnect, it was coming into my own realizing what the world was about. However, I couldn't sustain my upset, my trauma. I was completely beside myself and I really wasn't able to communicate to others and I had a breakdown. My family didn't know what to do. They brought me into the emergency room where I was psychiatrically evaluated. And then just hospitalized, labeled, medicated and told that I'd have to give up my dreams for the rest of my life and accept a lifelong regimen of anti-psychotic treatment. I didn't want to live with that, but I had to. What was your diagnosis? I'm sorry to interrupt. What were they labeling you as? They labeled me with bipolar disorder. And you know, the thing is, it didn't come immediate. The label came a little later. They felt that definitely the psychosis was there. But there was no discussion about where my mind was. What was my experience? The environmental triggers that occurred, they didn't want to hear about India. Now this was again in 1994, but nowadays, the traditional western psychiatry does not consider context. They consider behavior. So this is still part of the biomedical model, the approach of the system. And really, I guess what I'm here to say is there's other ways to heal and there's other ways to look at these things because this was clearly a traumatic experience and that wasn't even investigated by the people who said that they were professionals. So I really became very careful about listening, but I had no choice because I was on extremely heavy medication that completely took away my creativity. I wasn't able to paint anymore. I'd gone to school to paint and write, and it just took everything away from me. And now here I am at 50 years old. After 27 years of being on these meds, I've decided within this last year, and I've been working steadily on it for over a year now, trying to taper off these meds. It's given me so much more joy, the experience of emotions that I can now access that I could in for so long. These medications aren't designed to replace something that's missing. They're designed to sedate you. And sometimes that's needed. Sometimes we experience extreme states of stress and we don't know what else to do but stop the state of stress. But the exit plan is never discussed. There is no exit plan in psychiatric medication. It's usually prescribed for life, or good luck getting off yourself is very little help. May I ask you what was the role that your parents were playing in all of that because you were 22 when you first came back and also what are the implications of these medications in case someone in our audience is dealing with trying to taper off of those? Right. Well, my parents first were involved. They stayed involved for most of my life. And that's also one of the, I think, things that I don't subscribe to anymore. This idea of infantilizing our lives, you know, if you are suffering or if you have trauma or if you are having a stroke or if you are having a stroke or if you are having a stroke, then place in the hands of a caretaker in some capacity. So my parents really represented that for so long. And then later on, even up until 2017, I had a very extreme hospitalization where, you know, they were involved and they shouldn't have been involved and they were misunderstandings. They were like, things are a little better. That was six years ago and I had to pull away almost like there's this sense of you have to kill your parents sometimes in your imagination. I've had to kill, I guess, the old relationship I had with my parents so that I can grow into a normal adult relationship with my parents. But that was because I had to finally say, you know why you're accepting the narrative as is all these years, I need to start writing a new narrative. So what we think at Let's Talk that's very important is that there's a lot of stress and emphasis on the caregiver, a lot of stress on parents. And unfortunately, the medical community can't necessarily discuss things openly. And that's one of, that's one of the things that we think is very important to talk about. So anyway, I apologize for interrupting. No, absolutely. And then that's important information, absolutely. I was put on antipsychotics and stayed on those. But throughout, I've probably been on 20 different ones. In the beginning there were very heavy ones like Haldol and Melloril and Thorazine. And later on, I was put on Depakote, which helped me create, you know, nine to five lifestyle for myself that seemed to put everything, keep everything in check. And I hated it. I hated my life because I couldn't paint and I couldn't do the things I cared about most, which was expressing myself creatively. And then later, I got on Lomectyl, which is what I'm currently still tapering off from, and as well as Seroquel. So I have a poly right now, but I'm coming, you know, I'm coming along. And it's just been, it's been thrilling because it's possible. It's possible. And for people who don't know what tapering off is, can you please describe that or are you working with somebody to do that in a safe way? Yes. I will say that, and this goes out to many parents just so that you know, there is no, again, there's no teaching to the psychiatric profession to how to get people off the drugs. The idea is to get them on, get them stable. Now they're biochemically aligned. But if you want to do that, it is a solitary choice. You're not always going to be supported by the medical industries. You might need to find something extremely alternative. I found someone who I swear by, she's wonderful. She's a medical marijuana doctor who's helping me transition through a support with cannabis treatment. And also, you know, it's not just THC. You know, everyone thinks of it as, oh, we're getting high. No, there's all different kinds now of treatments. And particularly like something like CBN is helping me because that's just designed for sleep. It's just a terpene. It doesn't make you high. So these are alternatives. So she's able to write scripts because she's also known as UIN. So I'm very lucky. You really do need to enroll someone to write these scripts for tapering because you do not want to take it down all at once. Most people who have failed or have been experienced, I forgot what it's called, but you know, basically damage to the nervous system. So you cannot do this quickly. You need to take the time to do it. And what they found over the course of many, many years of patients voluntarily giving their information over to websites such as like survivingantidepressants.com. They have collected all this information from all the people who have tried to do this. And what they found is that the best way to taper is to take the dose down 10% of the previous month's dose. Not from the beginning, but from the previous month's dose. So it does take a long time. I mean, like I said, I'm probably going to have to take the full another full year to do it. So in the end, it'll probably take me about two years, but that's the correct way to do it so that you don't throw your nervous system into despair. Would you like to bring Jessica into the conversation now? Absolutely. Jessica and I met at a podcast conference. And I'm so thrilled that I did meet up with her. I actually attended her meetup session during a podcast, I mean, a podcast Origins. She hosted a mental health and podcasting hosting hard conversations group. And it was thrilling because I saw that she also had lived experience in her own way. And she came to podcasting with the intention of sharing her views on this and wishing to help people. And right now I'm involved with her latest program, which is live vibrant eight weeks to amp up your life. She's a great coach. And I'm thrilled that she could join us today. Thanks, Jessica. Yeah, thank you, Jen, for having me. It's really a pleasure. So Jessica, would you like to tell us your story? Sure. And be sure to tell us what whole body healing really is, if you don't mind. Exactly. Yeah. So to me, I mean, whole body healing can mean I'll start there different to different people, right? So typically we think of right mind, body, consciousness, spiritual energy, right? Mind emotions, physical energy, different types of energy, right? Energy is everything Einstein said at best. But my approach is really intertwining conscious energy and subconscious energy and subconscious even more so because that is rooted more in my story. So I don't have a conscious experience as to why or I actually was never on medication, but I suffer daily still to this day with panic attacks, massive anxiety and depression, which is why I use my podcast, not only as a tool to give others voice, but to give myself a voice and you said at best Vanessa about let's talk, right? These conversations don't happen, but this is where happening. This is where the healing is, right? We have to move through these emotions. One of the best books I ever read was from Cheryl Paul, right? About anxiety, how anxiety can be the answer, right? If we can tune into our emotions, if we have a modality of either having safe spaces or someone to talk to who's a professional who's been there who comes from a place of compassion who is not reading through a black book to diagnose, this is where the healing happens to get to the root cause of not only why we're feeling depressed, anxious, chronic pain, I have clients with all of the above, but where did it even come from the past, right? It may even go back, so there's four different types of trauma that I work through, right? Big tea trauma, little tea trauma, so big tea is Jen's situation as well, right? Like big life events like near death experiences or a death and loss in the family or a tragic event, right? You are a part of something you witnessed. Little tea is kind of the everyday stresses that we go through. Then there's collective trauma, which we've all been a part of through this pandemic, right? And we're still moving through that collective trauma, and that's the global trauma. And then there's intergenerational trauma, which is where a lot of my trauma now that I'm doing the work and of course serving my clients in the same capacity because, right, coaches have to have coaches as well. I'm still in therapy working through my own journey of inner bonding therapy, right, which is inner child healing. It's intergenerational, meaning it can go back up to seven generations of trauma, right? So like Jen, I am a first generation American of immigrant parents who were the first generation post-World War II who my grandparents suffered in the Holocaust, and then we can go back up to seven generations of that which there wasn't a place for even my parents even to this day to even talk openly about their emotions. I can't talk about it at home, and so then I grew up as a child that had suppressed emotions, that didn't know that it was okay to say that I'm not okay or to say how I'm feeling physically or emotionally, right, or even spiritually. These conversations weren't welcomed, right? And as an adult, you know, I can't look back to blame my parents, right? Now it's a matter of me being the inner parent to my inner child and learning how to have that conversation because it not only affects me, it affects everyone I'm in relationship with, it affects how I can serve my clients, and then thinking it goes seven generations back, I don't have children, but when I do and then they have children they have children, I don't want to pass on the same trauma that I experience every single day, so that's why I've become a huge advocate. As Jen mentioned, I have my Live Vibrant program, which is a healing sisterhood in a circle to find alternative methods of healing that does not involve the traditional pharma method. I'm just not a fan of that. I've seen too much in my own experience. From my family, I had a friend who died at the age of 27 from pill overdose, so I have taken that experience personally to help others through that, and a lot of my clients I try to help them wean off medication through natural methods, right? Through learning a lot of spiritual ritual, right? Having a morning practice, you know, learning the Akashic records, learning your human design, astrology, tarot, these are all healing modalities that can help us, of course, meditation to learn the subconscious mind, because that's the mind that runs in the background. That's the mind that you're not aware of why you're sad. You know, I actually heard Trevor Holland, if you know the musician, he was on a hay house summit for mental health, and he said I'm often sad and depressed and I just don't know why. I don't have like a big story, and it was the first time that I ever related to somebody speaking of mental health I said that's me. Like, some days I just wake up and I'm sad and I don't know why but there's probably something subconsciously that's buried deep within some emotions, some past trauma some experience that I'm not aware of, and I think sometimes that's even more dangerous because you you don't know what to do, right? You don't know even what it is. The awareness piece isn't there for you to help yourself or to even ask for help outside of yourself. Beautifully put, I think what's so interesting is to talk about little T trauma too, because trauma the words trauma, stigma all these different things are floating around without anybody ever defining them, talking about them, so I think that's great. That's a great way of talking about things, and I also think that PTSD is so much it's kind of like in our bloodstream right now I just want to tell you my dad my dad was one of the most wonderful guys in the world. He died at 90 and he went through the depression, saved his family did not graduate from college was in World War Two and the Korean War, and just before he died he said, oh Vanessa, I get what you're talking about, oh emotions are important and I thought fantastic you know fantastic, okay can we I would like to ask both of you I love what you've done what you're doing and how you presented yourselves I'd love to talk about I'd like to go to Jen first because Jen is such a I mean I think the word alternative is such a lovely word because it's against labeling and all these different things but you're creative you're out there, you're doing all these different things your podcast, you talk about hearing and sound being very important, you talk about Carl Jung and PTSD can you just tell us what is the most important thing that you'd like the audience today to think about or to kind of like throw out to them to ponder Yeah I know I was always a little and a lot outside of the box and that ended up getting me in trouble but it's all good because it's all coming to fruition and full circle so it's all lovely but I think my interpretations of things especially with the mental illness labels I think is where I really want to stress we need to see things alternatively because somebody like me I feel comfortable in my own skin doing things that most people might find crazy or abnormal I had a face and body painting business for over a decade where I just painted naked people I do submit to you know plant medicine cannabis and psychedelics I do identify more with indigenous narratives over patriarchal and colonial narratives I mean am I crazy I don't think so there's a lot more people out there right now who are speaking these realities people since COVID especially have realized that you know what everyone says is normal may not be so normal working you know 80 hours a week I don't know if that makes so much sense anymore you know since some of my family members are dying like people had to redirect what they saw as abnormal normal healthy you know unbalanced so yeah I the funny thing is during the COVID experience when everyone was kind of out of sorts I said to myself wow this alternative thing is helping me now because I feel very comfortable like just being at home and doing creative stuff and all by myself I have no problem with that so maybe there's a chance for some of this alternative perspectives to start breaking through to the mainstream and I think that there is that one of the things I try to put forward in my podcast is that specific thing about psychosis shamanism is a is a type of approach to life that some of us find ourselves in unknowingly and a lot of times people find that they have shamanistic traits after a near death experience and that's something I had to stumble into so this is a very like alternative can you define shamanism for people and can you define in your definition can you define what psychosis is I could talk about the two of them together sure sure so basically how the western view of psychosis reads is that you know you are disconnected from reality you're hearing voices that aren't there you're seeing things that aren't there and again it's very subjective because the idea is that they're taking your behaviors and your words and they're interpreting it as okay well there's no evidence of you know what she's saying therefore she's in another world she's disconnected from reality but in the experience of psychosis and those who have had it have been able to get through to the other side have been able to speak about it and learn you know some kind of eloquent way to discuss it and there's so few of us but so many of us have been strung out on these antipsychotics and it's very hard to gather your thoughts about this because it's an alternative way of looking at it it's much more than that there's things going on in our understanding and interpretation of the symbols in psychosis when you're in psychosis you are kind of removed from the 3D and you see things broken down in symbols in different kinds of narratives you might hear voices but to me when I was in those experiences they were so safe and I knew that the first time I entered it it was so safe because it got me home from India and it saved my life so that was always the starting point for me I said I have to trust this because I know that when I listened to these voices before I got back into America so I trusted it maybe more than I other people have and I ended up learning that other indigenous cultures when people go through these experiences they don't see it as mentally ill they see it as it's a gift this person can now go on to the other side exist in that world where there's an ethereal world and here's the physical world and they can kind of go in between and gather through symbolism information possibly from our ancestors in listening to the voices possibly from our ancestors or other guides and bring home that information to the tribe and actually make an impact and often a lot of the people who go to see a shaman and they have some kind of mental distress around them they feel that this is a real true healing and I've seen it too because I've been in shamanic circles where you know people have been healed so I just feel that one of the things I want to get to to the heart of is that what we're being told is abnormal or not true or you know woo woo or whatever we need to be much more similar to what others in other cultures have gone through and have been brought through the system in ways that were much different than the way I was brought through the system I was brought through the system being told I was mentally ill and not gifted so that's one of the things I really want to point out because hearing voices is a huge hearing voices community it's one of the biggest communities with people who are labeled with bipolar schizophrenic because one of the things that they go through is psychosis and hearing voices and many people are coming to the table with new stories and new narratives that are less pathology based and more you know solistically based and I think that we need to open up to that more that's so interesting and also I think some of the things you're talking about have to do with the whole idea that artists see things differently and so some of this might I'm not trying to put words in your mouth but might somehow be in some category that enhances or embraces some of that but Jen what would you what do you think is the most important thing for you to talk about to the audience I'm sorry Mimi or Jessica sorry Jessica I'm sorry I actually agree with Jen this is a good kind of transition point to continue the conversation on alternative perspectives seeing things from more of the eastern tradition versus the colonialist the western world and that's something that me not feeling a part of society I don't necessarily call myself a shaman but I do subscribe to the five clairs I see things I hear things I experience things differently I always have I think differently than most people and I never knew why but in American culture specifically they subscribe that like something is wrong with you right it's you subscribe to the thought that something is wrong with you you know I went through so many jobs and then you're labeled as unstable right which then you know when I get my fits and rages or panic attacks it's well now you need to psychiatric help and that would just send me into a spiral because I know just like Jen that I don't want to put a label on it I don't believe in that traditional system that people that are different and misunderstood per se that maybe the perception is that it's a gift or maybe it's just something that we as a collective need to understand and embrace rather than ostracize and so that's something that I believe wholeheartedly and that I teach and I speak about you know almost every single day is to embrace this Japanese concept called Shoshin which is beginner's mind you know I actually have a beautiful quote I want to share with you that really explains it well in the beginner's mind there are many possibilities but in the expert's mind there are few Shinryu Suzuki right so we all revere experts but who are these experts right like you said Jen what is normal what is real like these are the questions that we should be asking instead of right a diagnosis or particular labels right that we put on ourselves and on society and everyone around us is really just asking questions because neurologically when we ask questions we are guided right this is science it's not even spirit we are guided to find those answers right the brain the conscious brain connects to the subconscious brain and we are forced to see those answers right even if we don't know them right away the brain still remembers that's the subconscious right that's always working in the background that's the message that I really want to convey there are sort of three bigger points that I have that I think are really important you know number one is to have a morning ritual the way you start your day I always started my day in depression and I didn't know how to take the day from there right and so how you start your day and I still a lot of days wake up that way but now I have a way to help myself every morning the first hour two hours of every day to be in complete silence to tune myself out of the world technology especially has crippled our younger generation being constantly connected to these devices we don't even know what the impact of 5G technology is going to be years from now along with everything else that we're being exposed to right in big pharma the long term effects of all of that so we have to have natural ways right and again this is my whole body healing perspective to heal this trauma right to hop on an app like insight timer which is free there's 50,000 plus recordings of meditations positive talks live streams where you can connect there's communities and circles on there of other people just like you who are seeking that help right it can cost absolutely nothing right so it's available to everyone community same thing I have my own vibrant community but during the pandemic I connected to a part of other communities one of them being the day breaker community which is focused on the concept of what they call dose they work with the greater science center in Berkeley which is basically through dance through ritual through shamanism through all these spiritual practices to activate the four neurochemicals which combats mental illness which is dopamine oxytocin serotonin and endorphins so that was a beautiful community for me to be a part of because isolation long term isolation which we all experienced in the pandemic some of us still is the equivalent of smoking a pack of cigarettes a day so does it matter absolutely right we cannot continue I mean virtual spaces like this are beautiful when they're healing but most of what goes online is not right and we're absorbing you know our aura we're sharing our whole lives on social media our news we don't know what that does to our auric field and so I think it's really important to protect our energy to have these in spaces and personal ritual of awareness and silence really to just sit in silence I mean think about how hard that is to just breathe in breathe out for five minutes without an obstructive thought is so difficult but in eastern traditions it's not they sit and meditate for two three four five hours a day so I mean that right there is just telling I think that's great because you're talking about process you're talking about basically a lot of a lot of these strategies or mechanisms or things that you do to kind of tiptoe through your day and Jen can you talk about that same thing because I think it's just a really brilliant way of it's a really positive and brilliant way of thinking about the way we can help ourselves what do you do what's your process of your day just in terms of strategy I really try to incorporate as much as possible creativity and I think what we all experienced during COVID I think really honestly COVID you know I lost someone very very close to me so we all suffered in some capacity so you know there's that kind of mixture do we feel sad about it do we feel good about it we have to walk away with something positive so I think what I experienced was that I was just so joyful that everybody was doing creative stuff and it's known now through neuroscience they're working with this every day on all these different studies that you know art is and music are things that change you at the cellular level so if we can actually access some kind of hands on creativity outside of just like passively receiving like a TV you know something that you know we all enjoy as well but you know something that's hands on also dream analysis I think and to be very interesting because I work with a dream therapist and he's amazing Warren Falcon I'll mention him and he seems to really understand the Carl Jungian approach which is you know we are all connected with this collective unconscious and if we understood the symbols that are given to us while we are unconscious we might be able to really tap into the things that show up and manifest through our physical reality because they're teaching us things so it's almost like a way for that realm to communicate with us as well so to be open to that also what's very important can I just ask a quick question where you go on what do you do with Warren what is what is that do you talk on the phone do you he's like my therapy he's a dream therapist yeah and you go ahead and that's another point to just just generally therapy is widespread you can do all different kinds of therapy so he ended up he ended up really resonating with my style because we speak the same terminology art when I speak symbols he understands them and those are the kinds of words that come out when I'm in a shamanic journey or psychosis right so he understands that vocabulary so my my reminder to people is just you know connect with somebody who shares the same vocabulary you don't have to you know all agree with we don't agree with every therapist that's out there but if you find one person who could be on your team that's that alleviates a lot of stress for I would also say for bipolar personality types we like to stay up late okay that can be detrimental so sleep hygiene really really important I you know anything that you could do to really try to relax yourself at night I've had to like give up a lot of working at night because it was just keeping me up too late and that's changed things and also for me personally nutrition is key because it's again what do you put into your body you are what you eat you know we've learned this since we were kids and it's really really true and often times what happens which shows itself in a physical problem and you know biologically or you're experiencing symptoms that translate as mental illness could often be rooted in some kind of inflammatory issue and if you could get some you know of your eating habits under control a lot of these symptoms can subside on their own so I really am a big proponent of that I'd like to ask you what do you do for sleep hygiene well like I said right now I'm doing cannabis treatment I turn out you know I turn off the TV at 10 o'clock at night I you know have my tea I you know I read I try to stretch and relax and you know put myself inside the bed because then you just get tired you just you know you fall asleep try not to also look at the phone too much at night that's a biggie great I'd like to I'd like to go to depression because Jessica mentioned depression I'd like to ask you Jen about your work your your campaign with and about depression and then I'd like to Jessica to talk a little bit about depression as well because it's so ubiquitous and such a very important topic depression is huge right now and any bipolar you know most of a swing and that's the whole idea of bipolarity you go from mania to depression and I know right now I've never before people are experiencing it teens are experiencing it on incredible levels and I you know I just want to give the shout out to again any parents who are dealing with this with their children I do have compassion because I don't want to feel like anyone's feeling judged I don't want anybody feel judged because we find ourselves we wake up we find ourselves in a world that's difficult okay life is difficult and it's okay to discuss that because that is a form of compassion so in putting you know energy behind changing ideas around these these overall mental illness labels it's really about explaining that to our young ones it's okay to be sad it's okay to not want to get out of bed sometimes because if you allow that to be okay then the conversation begins most of the time people don't get help where they get so far in with depression that you know it can turn into suicidal ideation or you know very serious issues it's because they don't want to talk about it and so many people are expressing their oppressive qualities on a regular basis I mean this is part of the human experience and in a way we should be embracing it and throwing our arms around people and saying hey you know like let's let's let me give you a hug there was this one person I remember just seeing it recently it was like a this little video of this guy took of himself being outside and having this big sign saying anybody that wants to get a hug and he just gave all these hugs and I had everything on video you know and they put it on social media but I was thinking to myself I know that what those people feel like because we all do right sometimes you just walking in your your shoes and you're saying this sucks and that's okay it's okay to be you know not okay so that's a big thing that we have to remind kids because this toxic positivity sometimes is a narrative that gets out there a little too much and it's okay to not feel so great because that's how you get through it and may I ask you what specifically during COVID what are you thinking about and seeing because you recently returned to your work in schools yeah interesting that you mentioned that I used to teach I was teacher 14 years I was an English teacher which was interesting and then when my son was born I went to do my face and body painting business but COVID ended that I just did not want to go back to that after the whole scare so I am now teaching in New York City schools again and I'm doing I'm teaching art which is wonderful because then I can bring you know that deeper part of myself the thing that I'm most passionate about the thing that was taken away from me in my twenties that I couldn't I couldn't teach art because I couldn't even do art can think like that anymore from because of the meds so doing that with the kids is great and because what I notice and a lot of these kids you know I mean they all have you know behavioral issues when they are told that they could they don't have to do like too much thinking and they could just relax and touch materials and and just focus on creating something cool all of a sudden the the the most difficult children have connected to something deeper and you see that you know you see the power of what art can do so yeah it's it's really exciting to be back in the classroom and and know that creativity is I'm able to be that's so great and Jessica would you like to talk about talk about working and also specifically some of some more about depression and how that resonates yeah so a lot of what I see in depression I mean myself personally and a lot of my clients is cognitive dissonance right so not living an aligned life meaning we think one thing but we do another right and as human beings we do this every single day but when it becomes rampant in all areas of our life so spiritually in our relationships in our career right in our health and wellness that's what causes depression because we are fighting and anxiety but depression is the long term effect of suppressed emotions right I always say on my podcast all the time with all my clients what is not expressed becomes depressed which is why Jen said so beautifully creativity which again is not emphasized much in schools right that's always kind of subpar to education or to again the narrative right what people want to learn right and that's our right brain that's our feminine brain right but a lot of society runs in the masculine what are you doing what are you accomplishing right accolades the pressure to perform and I think our younger generation especially with technology it's becoming worse because they're not just allowed to number one express how they feel right in an open forum where they feel safe you know I got news for you I tell this all the time hard truth it's my background if you've ever been sad you've been depressed so it's okay to say that you've ever been depressed I mean obviously there's varying degrees some more than other but if you've ever been sad at any point in your life you've been through depression and so I think really what's important for everybody to know like Jen said it's okay it's okay if you're sad but you need to have a place to express that to a loved one to a therapist in community that is more important now I think than ever with this extreme long term isolation with technology right that again is really seeping into our energy centers and our auras every single day and myself personally I'm a highly sensitive person and I didn't know this until a few years ago when I read Elaine's Aaron's book and I watched a documentary but I always thought again there was something wrong with me but really I just experienced life in high definition meaning I'm hypersensitive to everyone and everything around me so that's for the positive but that also right seeps into the negative aspects right of vibrations you know the negative the lower frequencies that we can experience as well right sadness depression anger right anxiety and so the more you learn again I think it's just important to understand who you are right and to not give yourself a diagnosis right I don't subscribe I don't tell everybody hey I'm an HSP but I just know in my heart that I'm a highly sensitive person so I need to protect my auric field I need to make sure that I'm asking myself the right questions you know every single day so I have self increase so I understand if I don't have a means to express that to somebody else you know journaling is so simple but it's such great therapy because especially pen to paper it gets out of your brain and onto the paper right that's the easiest solution to cognitive dissonance is just get it out on the paper then the third step is of course taking small steps right and taking action but just some questions you know that I always like to ask my clients as well as myself you know these sounds simple but we never ask ourselves these questions you know what do I want for my life what do I want to experience today who am I without labels and attachments like who am I I ask my guests that the very first question when I get on the podcast who is Jen Gata Siciliano right not the mother not the podcast or not right who are you at your core right what is my Ikigai that's a Japanese concept your reason for being right when you live your purpose everyone here on earth I would say the day you were born is the day the universe decided it needed you right so what is that because that is what gets you out of bed every day there's actually a beautiful Nestle commercial if you Google Ikigai Nestle commercial of everyone in the blue zones which is Japan they live to 90 a hundred right they have longevity why because they're proud to work in the fish market she's proud to teach yoga he's proud to be right everybody has their purpose and that gets them out of bed every day you know how do I want to feel and if I'm not feeling that why why am I not feeling the way I want to feel what can I do about it where is the story even rooted in because a lot of times the stories the thoughts we think every single day they're not even our own it's stuff we inherited from our parents generation from past generations and then we subscribe to these stories these narratives right but that's not who we are and so I think the more you do this self-inquiry the self-discovery the more you will be able to heal through anxiety right depression because that emotion is expressed and not stuffed down physically at your heart center which leads to not only anxiety and depression but but pain inflammation chronic illness etc a lot of great a lot of great ideas there a lot of really important things that people can do I do think both of you are talking about having you know when you have meaning in your life and it's not just about you it makes a big big big difference and I'm going to watch the Nestle commercial definitely and I want to say something else that you're talking about about families both of you have mentioned families you know it's so interesting the story we keep telling ourselves like we come up we have like a couple stories all of us we tell them and the number of times we tell them boy they keep turning and changing and becoming something else and they really get big they get really big and it's very interesting that you are talking about kind of like cutting you know not cutting but dissolving bits of that over time so that's really great we could go on forever but I'd like to ask you both to say whatever you want to say to wrap up and this has been so interesting and we don't want to get into it but anyway Jen I'm going to ask you first to talk about whatever you'd like to talk about to finish up okay so one of the things I just want to give people are some resources okay and and just the overriding advice that healing is possible okay this idea that we are you know diagnosed now we have lifelong illness cancer okay this if you're telling me that I have problems in my brain and there's no evidence of that there's no tests for chemical imbalances these are old theories of the past that have been debunked there is no biomarkers for these illnesses that they say that you have and that's something that we should really understand because you know we say it's scientific but if there's no science this diagnosis then okay that it's a story okay we can accept that it's a narrative okay this is the way the system works so if I would just say that if you are coming to terms with dissatisfaction with the treatment that you're receiving from traditional mental health system please be open know that there's always a chance to heal there's so many things out there online right now there's tons of peer support networks on social media groups instagram twitter all these different things I have found so many if you are interested in getting off of withdrawing from psychiatric medications I would just again advise you not to do it quickly and you can go to websites like anti excuse me oh surviving antidepressants.com also if you're looking at just a general challenging perspective to traditional western psychiatry you can look at medanamerica.com they have an enormous amount of resources and writers who are also therapists in the mental health field that can give you information there are a lot of good psychiatrists out there who are holistic psychiatrists today two of them who I highly recommend Dr. Rani and Dr. Suraj they have their mental wealth mastery you could look that up and you'll be very happy to find that they are creating a community of other therapists and coaches and teaching them like a new knowledge base of what it is what functional medicine is and getting to the root of the problems that may be lying there also peer support networks are huge and another one that deals with psychiatric meds withdrawal is the inner compass and also Haya Grossberg who was originally going to join us tonight she has a book called freedom from psychiatric drugs a manual and workbook for psychiatric survivors so I wanted to put that all out there for you because I didn't know where to turn years ago I had no idea where to start and just a few things there I think would be helpful if anybody's on the same path as I was and Jen that's great I also want to mention that one of the people that you had in your podcast is Angie Peacock who was featured and really very important in a documentary called Medicaid normal which is Chaka block full of information for anybody considering this very very serious thing of getting off of meds and very has to be taken has to be done very very very carefully but it's a great film medicating normal and it's on our YouTube anyway Jessica I'm going to thank you thank you Jen and Jessica yeah synchronistically she was also on my podcast I know Jen from podcast but ironically she saw it on my stories and she goes wow I'm interviewing her like the same week so it was very very spiritually synchronistic there she was a wonderful guest and resource as well an amazing documentary medicating normal but I just want to close with saying question everything and I think that's just a good mantra not only for this conversation but just as a way to navigate through life don't accept what you're being told whether it's a diagnosis whether it's a prescription whether it's a label or a story that somebody's told you as as something that is for you right I mean again there is no one-size-fits-all approach to healing and so you have to know right in your body right tune into your body whether that feels right for you right does it does it create excitement you know in your body in your stomach in the pit of your stomach where do you typically feel the tension and if you feel that relieved from asking yourself is this right for me yes or no that really is just a tell-all you know type of experience so really just just question everything fine like Jen said the resources to write love on her arms is a wonderful charity that I've been a part of for many years you know hope is real your story matters is sort of their mantra and that's what I wholeheartedly believe that we all have a story if you're not comfortable you know making it a lifestyle or a coach coaching business where you help others then have a private way to do that you know whether that's through painting whether it's through dance whether that's through plant medicine you know and having your own garden have a way that expresses your own unique emotions that has your unique blueprint that allows you to release again a lot of these suppressed emotions and I just think that that's really important to have as a daily a daily part of your ritual is to question everything and to have a way to just be creative to use again that right brain that feminine energy which is not concerned with time space logic it just is right the feminine is just one with all that is that this fantastic this has been this has been just so important and so unusual unique all these all these wonderful ideas that you given people and resources I mean how how thoughtful and engaging and meaningful so I think both of you so much Jen and Jessica for being here we so appreciate you being part of let's talk and we appreciate all of our audience who joined in those of you who signed up and didn't join in this will be available on YouTube and here we have Dan and we're going to thank you for the playhouse thank you Vanessa for moderating and we'll be following up with some links for everybody to take a look at at their convenience in the next couple of days thank you so much everyone it's been a pleasure have a good night everybody thank you take care