 Hey, you're drinking champagne on a Thursday. What is it? 11 a.m. Why not, man? Yeah. That is hilarious. You know, introduce yourself. Oh, I'm great. I'm Vanessa Conlon. I'm a master of wine and had the pleasure of meeting Dean. I don't know, two weeks ago, something like that through a mutual friend in Los Angeles. Yeah. At Cut. At Cut, which I believe is one of, if not your favorite restaurant. Well, my favorite steakhouse of all time. Steakhouse. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and also for multiple reasons, you know, one being the room, the decor, the music, but of course, Wolfgang, you know, like the guys are legend, you know, I like, I like legends, you know. Yeah, my, I don't know how much of this you caught, but my favorite part of that whole evening was when he, he gave us a kitchen tour. And he was using your phone to take pictures of you, you know, managing this massive Tomahawk steak over the grill. And you guys are hamming it up and hamming it up and hamming it up and finally you stop and did you see there were like 12 shops that like ran over and were like pulling off the grill frantically and they were like, it's all burned. He didn't even care. He was like, get in here. Get closer to the fire. Get closer to the fire. My favorite leather jacket on and I'm worried about like steak grease splat on it or catching on fire. So anyway, I hope your, your photo op was worth it because I think you learned about 12 people's dinners that night. Yeah, absolutely. It was, it was about us. It was a dream come true, man, just to hang out with that guy. And I mean, I've eaten in there for years. And it's always amazing to me that he would just spin over to the tables. He's like, is everything good over here? And you're like, yeah, he's fucking here. I'm like, I think he sat down with us for like 20, 30 minutes. It was great. The stories he was telling was insane. Andy Warhol was my friend. You're like, oh, what? You know, it was just, oh my God. Now let me talk to you a little bit about I know zero about wine because in my drinking days, I didn't care for wine and growing up in the Bay Area. You know, some of the greatest wine is up there. And now I don't drink at all because I X diabetes and stuff and and kind of miss the whole. I feel like this is how funny it is to me. One sideways hits. All of a sudden it seems like everyone was talking about wine from that day on. There was just just this red hot for like two, three years. Oh, dude, we're going to Santa Barbara. We're going to try the pinot, blah, blah, blah, you know, and yeah, that was really, of course, wine's been around since and most people's minds God, you know, yeah, yeah. Now, how do you become an expert on wine and let's get into your story a little bit and what does that mean and your job and all of that the whole thing. Yeah, for sure. Well, you know, I did not grow up in a in a family that had wine either. I mean my parents love it now because I give them really good shit but but they're both classical musicians. And I think they couldn't afford it for one because they're kind of starving artists, but it just wasn't something that that we had, you know, at the at the dinner table I think you know maybe once a month they'd have a dinner party and maybe they'd like pick something up at the bottom shelf of the grocery store or something like that. So I didn't know anything about it. And I also studied classical music. And so, and I love I love all types of music I love blues I love solo of classic rock but like, you know this is what I grew up around. And so, I never really imagined doing anything else, and I certainly didn't know that they were careers and wine. Yeah, where they existed, you know, being in like Italy, you know stomping on grapes or something. Yeah, like if you owned a winery maybe you know other than that I was like I guess you could be a bartender I don't I don't know you know so I didn't remember it until until I was already in my 20s I went to school in New York City, at Manhattan School of Music, and you know like a lot of struggling artists I had to wait tables. And I realized like wow, you know, this is really cool plus your, your check gets a lot higher. If you know if you know how to talk about it on the whole chat. Yeah, I get it. Wow. Right. But um, but really there was something that that really fascinated me. Because a lot of the way that I would hear people talk about it who knew wine. They were using terms that I would hear or I would use talking about music, you know, like harmony and balance and, you know, and like, Right, notes of this notes of that exactly you're exactly right. And, and also you know it's using your senses, you know, you know you go to a concert, whether it's classical or rock whatever like, we're using our senses to appreciate something and we can be right beside each other we're going to have two different experiences because we're not the same person right. And it was just you know it's the same with wine like I know you don't drink I know you don't drink wine but if we both sat here and had a glass like you are going to experience it and taste it and remember it. In a way that's completely different than me and I think that's so fascinating so there is something about it that I really. It just made my ears prick up but you know it's still singing and traveling a lot and so I would start exploring it particularly if I was like in Europe I would try to you know taste all the wines and, and all that and then I had a break between gigs. And when I was in New York and so I thought you know what I'm going to go just take a class like an amateur one on you know 101 wine class. And I, I thought my head was going to like pop off, you know just like everything that goes into making a bottle of wine. It's fascinating and so I just came home and I'm kind of a dork I love to take notes and stuff and I came home I had like pages and pages of notes and I just thought like I have. This is it like you know and again I love music it wasn't about like oh I am giving this up because I don't like it but I was like wow you know what actually I don't have to do this myself I can be in the audience and love it. And go explore this other thing so basically I just started at the bottom I took like a minimum wage job at a retail shop just to like be around the buyer and a wine shop, a wine shop on the west side. And just so I could like taste and hear them talk about it and it just kind of took up from there so I worked my way up and managing that store, and then another store and then I was the buyer for a wine bar. And then eventually, you know, I really needed to take the next step which is that I had never worked like at a winery or around vineyards I'd always just been in the city like selling wine, you know, on the floor so moved out to Napa Valley in 2010. And that's that's where I'm talking to you from right here. Yeah, sitting in Napa so. It's funny growing up in the Bay Area I was around wine all my life, and you would do stuff like go on the tour of the champagne factory out there and by Gernvill what's that place up on the hill there. Well there's Shramsburg is my favorite in the north coast but there's mom. There's, there's domain chandon. This was on the way to Gernvill. It looks like a castle. Oh, I know you're talking about how's like a German. Yeah. Oh, it's right on the yes I know exactly what we're talking about it's right on the tip of my tongue but I'm blanking on it yeah yeah. You know, I sharpened burger. Is that right. I don't remember but I do remember going there and you know, drinking the samples. And there was one thing I found out right away I must be allergic to a champagne or something because the next morning I woke up it felt like someone kicked me in the side of the head. It was the worst hangover I ever had it was just like, oh how do I get rid of this. You know and then you would go to Napa. That was a thing that that women love to do we're going to go wine tasting and they get all cuckoo in there but I would go on the tours it was fun and I'm fascinating you see these giant barrels and everything. But some of my favorites was, I think about four years ago my friend is friends with the coplas and we went out to their winery. And they were like looking at the wine and everything and I was fascinated by that upstairs of all, you know, apocalypse now the father desk there's the surfboard, you know because I love Copa, but I did start hearing a lot about one once Copa starts hitting back in the day because when Copa starts selling wine at first. I think the industry is like what. And you know they were doing some kind of hybrid of the two different types of grapes or whatever, and he starts smashing it right and and and winning prizes and people are like whoa and now he is like one of the kings in the industry. I do believe I think I'm not sure if I'm right. His wine first came out was it a screw off top. It might have been I mean there there's there's there still remains like a bit of a stigma about that but actually the screw caps have come a really long way. That's what I heard. Yeah, yeah I mean you can get really the same quality in a cork and then you don't have to worry about things that can happen to a court because it's a natural product so sometimes you know things can go wrong. Yeah, yeah now. Also there was a cork shortage at one point I think and then you know but it is funny like, you know growing up around the ghetto lines of like night train and those things those. Now do you have you ever drank night train it's weird and insane. I have I have I have to say I've not had night train. It's I wanted to ask you if you knew anything about those like gut what are they the the term is like gut rot ones. Yeah, rocker rocker. Yeah. Yeah, they are the most weirdest alcohol in general is weird because I think at first when everyone drinks it no one goes this is fantastic you're a kid you're drinking soda the whole your whole life. You love like root beer and grape soda and orange crush, and then you get into booze and you're like, ooh, and you know so you, you gravitate towards like schnapps and stuff that tastes kind of fun. But it really takes a while to get into one did you like it at first the taste of it. Now keep in mind I was really basically an adult when I first had it so I did but but you're exactly right but I think if you look at particularly the American diet and there's so much sugar, like, even when you don't know that there's sugar and what you're eating and so it makes sense we don't have the same experiences as other people do in their, their cultural cuisine of like bitter, or a stringent or acidity, you know which is all stuff that can or you know savouriness that's part of in your which, which is all part of part of wine so yeah that's a lot of people starting place you know Moscato or some some other type of sweet wine. But, but this is not to say that I haven't had like inexpensive wines like to pass the master of wine exam you're expected to know all types of consumers, because there's wine for everybody right so like you can I had you know on my exam I had Dom Perignon so you really have to know. Yeah, everything's out there and all types of consumers and different price points. So you start working at a you moved to Napa and you start working at a vineyard which one did you start working at. Yeah, my very first job was at a winery that I still love called Arietta. So it's a family owned winery, but amazing amazing opportunity I was the first employee that they had ever had that wasn't you know, part of the production process. So I really got to learn all parts of the business is a lovely family and they happen to have like a very famous consulting winemaker to name Andy Erickson so it was it was just an awesome jumping off place. So that that was my start I worked for a place called Donna estates for many years to and now now I'm the head of wine for a national retailer called wine access. But, but all during that time I was studying so you know from the time I took that first class. It's just like amateur class in New York I started taking classes and then I started doing like the more serious professional classes in New York and was still doing that when I came out here and then finally started the master wine program after I was already living in Napa Valley. What I love about your story is you were pursuing one thing and then completely said nah, I'm going to start over and pursue something else. I often preach this over the 11 years of the podcast of if you don't like what you're doing, or you think maybe you want to try something else. I firmly believe that you should because you can always go back and do what you were doing. Instead of sitting in something and then going you know I should have really tried some other stuff over my lifetime. You know you're you're so right and I think you'll you'll understand this is that you know also, you know I was singing I had gigs but like I was never going to be super famous you know I wasn't going to get a record deal. So you know I I loved it but I had to be honest with myself to you know and say like wow this other thing is really cool I love it. Do I want to just keep doing this because I know it or because my parents are going to be disappointed. Yeah, and I'm not you know that I'm not doing it. And but it wasn't it wasn't easy either you know it was like for me it was such a part of my identity my entire life like who am I am a singer. I am you know that's how my friends know me that's how my family knows me. I spent a lot of money going to school for it. But so it was is almost like I had to I did get to a point where I was had to sort of say goodbye to it like it was a dear friend. And there was a there was a sadness to that too, you know. Yeah, oh yeah I mean you know because there is that inner claw that inner feeling inside of you have like, did I give up, or but I don't believe that I don't I don't believe people give up on their dreams. I think they obtain other dreams in life and and then if they don't pursue those other dreams, then it becomes a swirl of emotions like yeah you know I always knew I wasn't good enough at this and maybe I would have done it. So you know, my whole life I felt like I should do comedy, but I also loved music and it was what I knew the most to get into there wasn't kids doing comedy where I was in the neighborhood you know but there's kids playing music. So yeah music is very attractive at a young age because it's the arts and and then you get into it you realize there's so much to it there's writing songs there's writing lyrics melodies. There's grinding it out finding other band mates or whatever kind of thing you're trying to do this, mostly with music. I would say, about 75% of it, you need other people involved, you know, so then you have to rely on other people's work ethic and their, their girlfriends and boyfriends or whatever their problems are in life so yeah it's it's a really gnarly road. Yeah, I have a question so you said you were the first to work at this winery as a non maker. So how does this happen you go out to Sonoma, and you're like, All right, I want to get into the wine world are you going on doors saying I'll just do anything what's happening there. Yeah, well so I was trying to apply to things while I was still living in New York so there's this website called winejobs.com. So you can probably tell what that's all about. So I was looking at these jobs in Napa and I'm calling people up or sending me my resume. And I'm like, Okay, yeah, let's like have a follow up. Can you come in tomorrow and I'm like, Well, I live in New York, you know, but really I'm going to move out there and then they'd be like click. You know, and so finally one day I was just like, I just got to go, you know, and you know that like that phrase like leap and the net will appear. Yeah, I just thought that's what I got to do. So I moved out here I had my air mattress and my cat. Drive across country. I did fly with my cat which is another experience but you didn't have a car right because you're in New York. I had never owned a car in my life. Wow. Did you grow up in New York in the city. I grew up in Texas and then Virginia and West Virginia mostly before before New York but I just never I just never owned. I never owned a car so yeah so I came out here and then like, basically all of a sudden, everything dried up I'm looking on that website and I'm like there were like 100 things last week and there's nothing. And so no you know what I did I took a job at the tasting room of Robert Mondavi. Wow, great. I was like, Let's do this but it was a great experience actually because you see so many people coming through and you learn to tell the story of Napa and you know how to tell people about wine and anyway and and honestly I had never had this wine Arietta but I was a musician and of course Arietta means like little song. Yeah, I was like I got to meet these people so basically I like, you know, introduce myself to like talk to myself into having you know coffee and I left with the job. That's great. That's great. Now at the time. How many years ago was this. 2010. So 2010. The amount of how Sonoma and Napa area has changed from 2010 to 2022. I mean, it's straight up high baller now. Oh yeah, you know, like Disneyland for adults. Yeah, it really is I mean perfect example to is like bottle rock festival. And that came around as like a festival and Napa, you know, I get it great theme bottle rock and stuff. I was like, Are there enough people up. Oh yeah, there's people out there. And you know, it kind of goes from like Marin County. And then you got Petaluma and Sonoma County all the way up to Napa. And that whole area is just kind of money now. And fine wines and foods and farm the table. And it really is this kind of boutique world of all kinds of good stuff that people are making and and and you know cooking and all of that up there right. Totally and and it's very expensive to so like land land in Napa you can pay up to a million dollars for an acre. A million for an acre. It's crazy because I mean that's not obviously at the high end but it's it's not out there it's not too far off so like basically you know Napa Valley. For good reason is protected by the agricultural preserve which means it's limited. That's why we do you don't have these big strip malls in the middle of Napa Valley and stuff right so it protects. It protects the land but it limits how much you can plant and particularly how much you can plant on hillside because of erosion. So basically like Napa is essentially planted out so you can't plant here you can't be a new vineyard owner unless you're taking it from somebody else right right so it's just drives up drives it drives it drives it up. You know and then you know I think obviously there's amazing beautiful wines out here but you look at some of the price tags on these wines and you're like well no wonder I mean look at what you had to pay for the land. Yeah, well I was just reading recently and a few things have happened. Of course, the massive fires over the last five years up there has affected the price tag and then just recently I was reading the supply of wine bottles. There are none right now so there's another problem. It's honestly nuts. Yeah so you're exactly right there's kind of two major fires right here in Napa Valley but then of course all around us too in other years but 2017 and then 2020 was the really devastating one here. So a lot of people won't have wine that they're going to release from that vintage but yeah and then COVID hit and like other industries too. It's like you can't get bottles you can't get glasses you know the bottle you can't get labels you can't get corks you can't it's just crazy. It seems like hey I'm not a conspiracy theorist but it seems like every industry is like all right we missed out on two years of money. So let's just say everything's hard to get and we'll just triple the price of anything use cars. You know wine watches, any luxury items Porsche. Who knows and then of course also you know I work for a wine retailer so we ship wine all of the United States but we're very reliant on a lot of wines coming in the country from Europe and to get something through a port it's crazy. I mean it's getting a little better but these ships which you know just sit off of the port of Oakland for like two months three months because there's just nobody to unload them. That's crazy right. Now let's get into it so you're working at the binary. You start at the tasting room then you go and you start working at this wine and at what point. Do you say all right I want to study and is there like a school or how do you know how do you get ready to take this. The master class yeah yeah so I had done all of the levels that I could through a program called the wine and spirits education trust. So I'd finished that while I was here and I was honestly a little burnt out and I was like I think that's probably it this is far as I'm going to far as I'm going to go. And so I was just working and then I remember being starting to be around conversations like particularly when around winemakers and they were talking about things that involve chemistry or you know things that I was like I don't really know what that is. And so my brain started humming again and I'm just a very curious person like I need to always be like learning you know what's what's the next thing I can kind of feed my brain with and so. So I reconsidered that and I was lucky enough to know some people who had gone into the master of wine program so I talked with them. But, you know, you have to apply to get admitted to you take an exam to be admitted to it to it and then it's a minimum three year process but could take up to seven. And then there's about the first exam was in 1953 it's an organization based out of the UK. Since 1953 there's been fewer than 500 people to pass the exam. So it's a it's a serious commitment you have to be really ready to annoy all of your friends and family. So you sit down and you take this. How long is the test and and how many questions is the questions or are you drinking stuff and they're asking your questions what's going on there. Yeah, both so if there are several years. It's called like stage one there's a stage one assessments you have to pass that or you have to repeat it or they kick you out at that point. And then at that point if you pass through stage one you become eligible to sit like I'll just call it the big exam. So it's it's essentially a four day exam. And half of it is theory so all written everything we do is an essay form, even our tasting notes about wine so it's all day writings about things like you know, bit of culture so you know the growing of grapes vinification, meaning the wine making there's things about law, current events, the handling of wine health, anything you know that that they want to throw at you but essentially it's a it's an exam that's about critical thinking. So it's, it's not an exam the master of wine exam is not an exam that you're just memorizing flashcards there are there are certifications that are like that and they're really hard to but for this one what made it interesting is you have to kind of pull in your knowledge of all aspects, and then form an arguments you're almost going to like argue like a lawyer. And like you're going to use you're going to be a detective and then you're going to argue your, your, your case and you have to understand both sides, and then ultimately come to a conclusion. So that's the, the theory portion, and then the tasting portion we call that the practical exam. And that's three days. And over the course of three days we taste 36 wines, blind. Whoa, whoa, you're Uber and home on those. We spit we spit the wine out when we're when we're taking an exam or assessing it like as a professional I mean, I am sipping a glass of champagne right now but mostly if I'm assessing wine, you know for my job I'm spitting it out. And you're blindfolded. You're not blindfolded but when we say blind it means that you just have a glass in front of you know label, no context you're just maybe. So you're just going on what am I seeing, what am I smelling, what am I tasting and for and for me, what am I feeling because a big part of how I taste wine is what I call like a palette feel. And, and anyway and then from there, you know you're again this is all essay format but you're expected to know things like you know vintage certainly what great variety is it region quality level price how is it made. And then how would you sell this wine to a consumer like who's the right customer base for this, you know all based on like what you're tasting in the glass. So, how do they grade the test is it actually like missed questions or because it being a lot of essay and stuff how do they grade that test. Yeah, it's a, is a really good question so ultimately if you pass you never see your exam. So, oh really. No, but but you do know because they will release later, what the wines were so like what I did every day I walked out and you're just kind of in a brain fog because you're, it's timed also so you're like rushing and it's crazy and there's adrenaline. And so I wrote down what I had called each wine in that day and then a couple days later they release it so you can kind of know like hey I got this number right you know, but ultimately each wine is weighted 25 points and so again you're kind of building your argument because you could go in, let's say, I was like tasted it was like you know what I know that this is this is a 2016, you know, court on Charlemagne. And that's all I wrote and I was right, I would fail. I would feel that question because I didn't show my work. So you have to kind of start with like, Why do you think this back it up, you know, is it's like something else that I could could consider. And so you want to you're showing that you understand the world of wine, and then ultimately okay this is what I'm going to call but based on what I'm tasting I could have gone this way but ultimately, I'm going this way and this is my final. So, so there are ways also to pick up points and be wrong, like you could still if you like really close you got all the way down to like this is either alberino or Gruner Beldener. And at the last minute I went Gruner and it was alberino, you could still pick up points, but ultimately you have to get most of the wines, right. Now, let me ask you this, we always hear about, you know, the million dollar bottle of wine or whatever you know, and, and there was this period where there were wines that were just a zillion dollars I mean I've been to restaurants and they can say it's a seven fiftieth glass. And there was that whole thing of like rare wines, like cold wines. Yeah, yeah. And, and, and then I think, and this is me going back to the Coppola thing. There became these wines that were known as incredible that were like $34 a bottle that people are like this. This is a whole new era. What is a spectacular bottle of wine that's affordable and what is the most expensive wine you've ever drank. Oh man, let me start with expensive I mean I have been lucky enough to try screaming eagle, which can I mean and DRC which can cost you know a car basically. Now, now I didn't buy this. I always have people know that to the fucking guys rich is like, nah, even if I was I wouldn't spend 10 grand on you know such as that you know but what how much is screaming eagle and was it a glass or did you drink a bottle. It was a, I've been lucky enough to try a couple bottles over time I think on release it's close to maybe $2,000 now but of course if you get it on a restaurant or it's a library vintage you're going to pay upwards of you know $10,000 easily for the And then, what do you like, what did you like about it was it did you think it was worth it or were you're like, hmm. I love this question because actually. So it was beautiful bottle, but I think I think what's interesting is these bottles like, you know, again, this is a very known cult wine right the screaming eagle but we can be talking about other ones we can be talking about domain to love Romani Conti or something but it at some point I believe it's, what does it mean to you, right, you know, because was it delicious. Oh my God yes right. Is it $10,000 better than another bottle of wine if it's worth it to you. Yeah, you know. That's what I say people are I got a fucking $20 watch does the same as yours like, yeah well let's know what it's about. You know, that bottle of wine has soul. That thing has history that has that has, you know, roots and and blood and sweat and stories. You know, yeah, with some great watches or a great piece of denim or whatever. So, you know where is the screaming eagle made. Yeah, it's in Oakville. So it's a wine in Oakville they do not let you visit. Really, why hard as you. Oh, there. Well, they're very small production, first of all, but they would just get inundated again and it's too expensive, you know, to pour those bottles but but yeah no I think you're right like what is it worth to you and then also like, who were you with, you know, how are you feeling like what memory do you have of it. And like you asked me about like this champagne I'm drinking right now is it's like $30, it's basically $30 champagne which for champagne is not that expensive I love this, you know, like, but I have but there's a slight for me I know this producer there's a story. It means something to me because I look at this bottle and I remember visiting and meeting the owners and their cat. And the guy had dropped a bottle right before I got there and so his shirt was wet and it's like all that stuff that you look at it and I think it's the same with music right like you sometimes just hear something and it's like, instantly you're like in a different place in a different time you're with that person and or they're wearing or yeah. Well that's what music is to most people you know whenever somebody says there's no good music anymore. I realized they don't really care about seeking out new music music to them as a time machine back to when they didn't have bills, or mortgage maybe or divorce. It takes them back to the, you know, I was single we're in a Camaro, we're, you know, driving around smoking joints that's what music is it can take you all over. Yeah, that's what that's what wine can do. And, and you know, wine is right now, a lot like the coffee world, there was some quick. A while ago, where everyone got into coffee and wine and I love coffee. And you know, yeah, I drink a Starbucks because it's everywhere, you know but do I like it. No, it's just what I do. But you know, once I started drinking some great great coffees. And I just love blue bottle, which is a fantastic coffee I don't put anything in my coffees. And I think a lot of people do because it tastes like shit. And they're trying to dilute it. But if I go to a blue bottle and get a nice cappuccino or americano. I drink that thing just straight it tastes like a mochi kind of chocolatey deep, deep, deep coffee. And I love that kind of stuff so I can relate to the wine people because I understand what it's all about. I have a question for you actually so you know, there's been a lot of things written about this wine culture in the NBA, let's say, you know, Baxter Holmes wrote something about like all these, you know, famous players and they have these like wine clubs and they bring the wine on the plane afterward and they're all kind of like who can one up each other. It's like a real thing. What is it like do you see that let's say either with comedians, or I know you know you're all around these like amazing bands Metallica, Greta Van Fleet these guys like do you see any of that there. Well, I think the interesting thing in the world. What really blows my mind is, there's a thing where people start to make money, and the fans can turn on I'm like, look at these bougie fucking asshole, they want you to be blue collar for life. And I don't think people understand say like me who grew up, you know, food stamps single mom, terrible no money. I think that people don't understand. If you, you know work your ass off and get to somewhere. You start to learn about great stuff. Like wine, or cars, or, or, you know, a place to go skiing and Swiss Alps or whatever it is. And, you know, and you start to lose your mind like wow and what I see with the people that start to make money. When people come around like look I met you guys, and you, you share each other's knowledge is, and you learn, and you seek out like, why do people smoke these cigars. Okay, Cuban, you know I went to Honduras, I saw him hand roll these cigars out in the you know jungle, and I started to understand that I don't smoke cigars but I still wanted to understand that. So you learn fine stuff. You know, and in a lot of people's minds is just like overpriced. You're an idiot and all this instead of like, good for you, you're seeking out a better, you know, like look I love mac and cheese and tap rum and I grew up on it. But I also love caviar or something you know that Wolfgang Puck brought over that I would never buy I don't know anything about it but you're trying to go whoa what is this you know. So I, I think that the people that start to make that there's two types of, of, of fame levels there's one that's just kind of white trash forever they're like we booze we made money and whatever. And then there's that kind of other where they're like, I want to seek out what life is and that it is in there in the rock and roll world. I know Kirk Hammett and Lars, you know, Lars was into fine art. You know, probably because he had a European upbringing. I loved art, you know, painters seeking out why are these painters the greatest, you know, go to the Louvre, learn that kind of stuff. And, you know, Kirk Hammett into fine fashion, I love fashion, you know, why is this crazy good money. Who were the greats in the fashion world. All of that, you know, so there are people in bands that they seek out stuff because they're around fashion. They're around different types of people that make money, and, and wealth and culture and stuff and it's, and I think to me it's really about life seeking out as much cool stuff as you can, before you die, you know. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I co host on a podcast called wine access and filtered and the whole premise of that is to have people who are extremely successful in their own industry but are not in the wine industry. You know, we've had musicians, comedians, philanthropists, CEOs, you know, economic people, it's been like economists I mean it's been really interesting to talk to them, and but there have been a number of comedians like Steve Byrne was on, right, Burke Chrysler, Tom Papa. And, and so that that's kind of what what made me think of it because like just wondering if there's there's sort of this building of wine curiosity among that that field as well. Absolutely. I believe that you know, there's comedians out there that, like I said you travel around you get to a city, and whoever they kind of, you know, hit people in that town if you're a rising star and the buzz is out on you. You know, you're up in the green room. And look, that's how I meet people all the time. You know, you're like, Oh, hey, you know, like I'm out with Bill and Bill Burr and different people come down and, or if I was traveling with the stones or whatever you start to meet people and after the show, maybe they drink some wine they have a cigar or they go to incredible food at whatever the great restaurant is in that city. There's nothing more I like doing than after the show people do you want to meet us at this bar I'm like, I know I that's the last thing I want to do it's loud and people are screaming and I want to go eat a fine meal and talk to people that aren't comics and see what they do and what the city is about and and what's your your great restaurant and everything so yeah there's definitely people out there that are into good wines and and and everything cars and you know I mean there's people that are way into like we were talking about going out to pebble beach and quail and all that and there's people that are way into, you know, fine fine stuff. And, you know, you can see it around. I mean comedians now the big big big ones are making more money than, than ever. You got, you know, so the sky's kind of the limit of learning and enjoying stuff I mean there's only so many times you can have a jack and coke before you go like well what else is out there, you know, yeah, for sure but I love what you said about like sort of bring like meeting at the table and having food because really that's that's what my wine is meant to do right bring together inspire conversation we don't have to agree but you know, you know and you loosen up a little bit and and, you know, who knows what happens next but but and I like that especially to because, again, I think that wine and this is something that I really try to to work on as someone who's in the industry, like something like a classical music has this sort of perceived barrier to Absolutely. Absolutely. I don't know anything about it. So I can't it costs a lot of money. Right. A lot of people think that I want to cost a lot of it there was that thing for years. Yeah, and costs a lot of money, and a lot like watches people are like I watches you know they cost a lot of money. You know it's not there's all kinds of different levels of fine stuff, you know. Well for sure and it goes back to what we were talking about originally which is like, who's going to judge knows going to judge you on what you're feeling right so like, you know, you go to a concert you may not have ever heard, you know, an opera before but if you dig it. It's great if you don't. That's fine to like, it's your body it's your ears and eyes and you know, and like same with wine it's like you know if it's meant to be enjoyed and you don't have to have some, you know, level of knowledge or be able to pronounce every single word that's on the label or, you know, blind taste it but it's meant to be enjoyed. Yeah, yeah. I mean like you guys were sitting there talking about wine, and I don't drink wine but I still was fascinated to hear. I want to know what the best is in everything in life. What's the best wine what's the best car what's the best hotel to stay at what's the best suit to get. What's the best glasses to wear you know, I just like to know fine fine and usually the best. It doesn't mean the most expensive, I would say 99% of the time, the best means something that somebody put their heart and soul into. You know, usually there's no corporation involved in it. And there's no, it's always a family that's always got a story this dude moved from such and such with $7. You know, planted one grapevine may stomped it himself and sold it and then a family drank it and provided money for him and you're like, Oh yeah, tell me more about this guy. Yeah, yeah, no, it's cool that you say that because because at our dinner of course you know you and Reiner you're talking cars and I don't really know much about well when I say much I know nothing. But but I was like wow this is actually similar conversations because you're talking about these people who put like their heart and their soul and their blood and their sweat and there's like so many details that I would never have thought of that go into it. And yeah it's similar so it was like I know you're like oh this is boring for you and I was like hell no like this is fascinating because like I know all the things you're talking about I could describe like what happens in wine but you're speaking a language that I'm not familiar with but there's clearly so much passion around it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Another thing really wild about grapes and wine is like coffee and cigars. Nature is the is the boss. So nature lets you know if you're going to make money this year or not, which is the scariest thing ever with automobiles or watches it's you and metal and you know, you're just making it but with with stuff like coffee wine and cigars. You are like oh no we had a fire no wine this year. And that's just one of it. That's a low tragedy in what happened up there because people lost their homes and it's horrific but still when when families put all their, their, they all their money is needed you know from this crop, or they might not stay in business, you could have a history go away 100 year history in the stroke of nature, you know. Oh yeah, especially what's going on right now with global warming and the fires and everything. Wines could be gone, you know. Yeah, there's a lot of talk about that of course because because it is this is agriculture. I mean as much as we're talking about you know luxury brands and you know the sort of sexiness and romance like it's farming. And so yeah, and you can you only have one shot right because you only get to harvest once a year so you can also you can spend your whole year and in a day, you could have frost or hail or a fire or something like that and so it's like well gotta wait till next year, you know. Brutal, brutal. And you gotta have enough money in the bank to make it through that year, you know. Exactly. Yeah. So you passed the course, you become a wine master. And what happens with the next because of course we met at a the Michelin star, you know, hand out to Wolfgang his second one congrats to him. How do you get to where you are now you pass this. And where do you go with that you all right I'm a wine master who needs me. What do you know. Yeah, well it's kind of what you make of it so you know I will say it definitely I mean it definitely makes it easier you know open some doors for solutions and, but I kept my job I had this I have the same job I became a master of wine. But for me it's you know, it was something I did for myself, you know not necessarily because I was trying to get to the next level of my career it's you know but I will say it almost it allows for more learning, and that's what goes back to like why I didn't the first place is like I can't sit still right so like now what I think of it is not like oh hey I'm a master of wine like it's you know look at me it's like hey I'm master wine can I come talk to you like let's have a conversation about what you're doing because I really want to know and you know it's kind of gives you you know it shows that you put the work in. So for me it's like a respect right away. Yeah, so but um but yeah you know I see some people certainly will kind of you know try to change careers or whatever but it's there's the thing about the master of wine there's people who pass who are winemakers who are writers. You know who are you know I work for a retailer so it's kind of all different types of people and I have to say for the most part the people that I know from the program have kind of kept doing what they're doing just, you know, they did it for themselves and it's, I have to say one of the best things about it actually is the people that I've met so it's a it's so brutal. The study program you get knocked down so many times and like there's no quota though so you're not competing against the number of people that are taking an exam that you're you're only competing against yourself. Right, so there's a real camaraderie among among us. I mean my study group they'll be my friends for life and you know we saw each other at our absolute worst and you know and at our best and so there it just builds this feeling of like, I have no inhibitions around them because they really they know who I am they saw me answer and look like a complete idiot, you know, and then maybe the next week I had the best week of anyone in our study group, you know, and so but we saw that about everybody. So that's that's been like I'm just a one of the most surprising and wonderful takeaways. Have you been to bottle rock and are you excited for this year's bottle rock let's talk a little bit about that. I'm really excited so I'm going to completely embarrass myself and say that I live right here in Napa and I've never been but my house or my former house and it was right above there's a little neighborhood there called Alta Heights is right above the fairgrounds and so I basically could sit outside and like listen to all the shows I remember the first year is like black keys. Alabama shakes. It was amazing I was just like sitting outside, but I this year I would love to go because Metallica is playing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you gotta go are you going to go. I'm going to go well we're going to meet there right we already we already decided. Yeah, yeah, I love. I love the juxtapose of bottle rock you know, yeah, you know I get to see people out there. Try this one and then they're up there like I'm creeping dead. And you've got like Chef Morimoto doing like a sushi demonstration over here and then yeah you got Greta fan fleet fan over here and yeah it's pretty wild so yeah I mean for sure you're going to be there so we're going. So how does it. How do you hook up with the missile and start with Ryan and stuff do you travel with him when he hands out the stars or what were you doing because you were there. Yeah, so so the company I work for wine access so we're the official wine provider of the Michelin guide so we're partners with them and we we actually have a subscription where you get a five shipments a year of four different bottles of wine and each of those is focused on a different Michelin restaurant so I work with the wine director or the Somie and basically it's like, if you were going to be in this restaurant if you were going to go to per se let's say which was our holiday shipment. What are four bottles that you might have if you go there but you get shipped right to your home and then you know with recipes and, and all that so I was in LA because our first quarter shipment this year is with chef Gary menace of Le Comptoir which is a one star Michelin so basically in like Korea town and it has I think it's either eight or 10 seats that's it. So yeah, teeny like counter service but amazing food and so I went down there and filmed some videos with him. So he were talking about his food and the wines that we selected for the for the shipment and then of course Ryan was down there giving out Michelin stars so met up with him and I thought that was so cool you weren't there in time to see a see them get it cut you know just like seeing someone who has that achievement and is rewarded for all their hard work and like every single person was there in the restaurant you know from the front of the house back of the house and just like seeing the look on their faces was like, I would be a fly on the wall. Any day, if I get to see things like that. Oh, it was an amazing night it was. It really was amazing night it's some of those things I've felt lucky in life of being included on stuff like that. Yeah, sitting down with the guy who is basically one of the greatest chefs ever, and just hearing the stories and, and he's not jaded he's not burnt out. He's just just festive, you know, guy this guy made it you know hard. It's almost impossible for a restaurant to make it. Yeah, almost impossible. And there he was just stars in his eyes just just great and we were eating some insane food man. Oh, what was your favorite man I, it was unbelievable I thought that bone in New York was unreal. That was of the stakes we had that was my favorite but I don't know if you remember towards the beginning there was the oyster with caviar. Yeah. Oh my gosh just like, I mean how can you go wrong with two things in white like that so. And the squid rolls. Oh, yeah. But I have to tell you, I can't I can't keep up like by the last course that I was just like, like holding up a white napkin. I was done to I was like, I got in the car, you know, and I was like, Oh, you know, I had my mother jack and I was like this out of here. I got home and made down right away I mean I don't eat that big. Look, I'll eat a good meal but not that I mean it just kept coming and coming and Ryan's like yeah we have to eat it we don't want to show disrespect and I'm like, yeah, there's three of us here. It's like, I can't even move right now. Oh my god it was a great night and it was so cool to meet you like it's great to talk to you about wine and get that out there what is the website real quick for people to go to. Wine access.com. And then your podcast what's it called wine access unfiltered and so you can find us in all the normal places you know itunes Spotify etc. Yeah yeah and thank you so much for doing the show. Thank you great to meet you hope to see it bottle rock for sure. And if you are in Los Angeles come see some comedy or find my friend like we said before, and I'm doing comedy you got to come see that you big comedy fan. You know what I will be there because I've never seen you live so it's top of my list. I think Marin's coming to Sonoma or Napa here in a couple weeks. Right on. All right, I'll have to check it out. Yeah, you'll love that. All right. Thank you so much for doing the show. Great to have you on and oh you got an Instagram. I do. I'm just Vanessa Conlon my name. I didn't get fancy and then at wine access if you want to follow that. Yeah, awesome. Awesome. Thank you for doing the show. Thanks Dean. Cheers. Have a great week.