 are identical to operating countries because they carry the same challenges and I'll mention that a little bit as we go along. So, I'll go straight to the objectives. So, we're going to talk about the three phrase approach to the milestones and understand some of the HRD priorities in those phases. You did the milestones with Sean, yes, is that correct? And back in countries, okay. We're going to talk about the HRD life cycle and I've got a nice diagram that we can talk through to describe that life cycle and some of the key activities that exist in that life cycle. We're going to talk a bit about nuclear skills and skills for nuclear and because that is kind of two areas to talk about. Skills for the nuclear program, which often are not nuclear skills at all. And then we're going to talk about a national workforce plan. So, we recommend at the agency for embarking on countries that newcomers put together a national workforce plan that scopes out for regulatory organizations and government bodies, for TSOs, for potential owner operators, that whole kind of education training and qualification life cycle. And we've got a copy of one and we'll just talk through some of the key principles of it. And then we'll talk about some of the guidance we've got in the area, actually, which is pretty much the same as the last one. So, just to recap, phase one, you're going to make a decision. The milestone for phase one is you've made a positive decision that you want to go forward with the nuclear power program. Phase two is you're preparing for that program and then phase three you're constructing it. So, I'm going to assume that you guys are fully aware of that. I know you spent a whole day on it. You probably told me some stuff on it. Some of the infrastructure issues that you need to consider across all of those. So, these are the components of the milestone's approach, national position, nuclear safety, management, funding, legislation, safeguards, regulations all the way through to industrial involvement and procurement. All of these issues have human resource requirements. So, it cuts across all of those. There is a specific one that we get involved with working with member states where we try to really help them put together their national workforce plan. But they all actually have patriarch components. You need people qualified in all those areas when you decide to build a nuclear power plant. So, here you can see kind of a breakdown, a schematic of the different phases and the milestones. And 10 to 15 years is a period, typically, when we break down the time scales. That's the kind of sum that we come to. And that's actually, that seems a lot, but 10 years is not a long time to get everybody qualified and ready. And so, the reason that arrow is put there is because we would recommend that you start thinking about, even here, your national workforce plan, even before you've got to pay for it. So, we really encourage government organizations to do their planning, start thinking about their planning here. Because in some cases, they have to build universities or they have to develop university capability. They have to build schools, technical vocation. Not all the time, but in some cases. So, we would encourage this thought process around your workforce plans for embarking countries very early on. So, we encourage you to have a national HR strategy that you can then roll out across that period. So, these plans we talk about you developing, we kind of just remind the member states that the plans aren't being developed for us, they're being developed for the member states. Often, member states give us a plan and think, well, that's it, we've given the plan, although it's some kind of sign off or gold star stamp from the IAA. And to be honest, we look at these plans, but they're not not for us. They're meant to be living plans that you keep alive and evolve. They're meant to identify gaps in your national and regional arrangements. So, often, if you're involved in developing workforce plans, you should be brutally honest with yourselves about where the potential gaps are. If you think you're going to have a shortfall of vocational skills or technical skills or competencies, this plan should be identifying it. The worst thing that can happen is you come to the agency with a really rosy plan and say, oh, this looks fantastic. When you know that there's gaps in it, because if you came to us with a really good plan, we'd be highly suspicious that you haven't done your job properly, because every country in the world has gaps in their workforce plan by the nature of what we're trying to do. It's an evolving, changing thing. So, we're just trying to get the message over. These plans, you have to be really tough on yourselves. You may need to have a different approach for different phases. So, your workforce plan for phase one will be different for phase two, but almost certainly will be different for phase three. And that's what we see. We experience that even recently with the UAE. We invested a huge amount of money in their capability program and in Belarus. So, this message about be realistic and find the gaps. It's a vehicle to find the gaps in your natural arrangements for yourselves. There are no off-the-shelf solutions. I know when I first came to the agency, we had some calls from some countries. Can you give us a kind of model plan to develop? And we've got a template, but we can give you that template. But the truth is, there are no off-the-shelf solutions, because each country has its own unique circumstances, because it has its own unique education model, social model that has to plug into it. We'll go into this during the session, but there's two kind of categories we try to talk about. There's nuclear skills. So, there's nuclear knowledge and skills you need to write a safety case for your plan, for your regulators. There's the nuclear skills and knowledge you need if you're in the regulatory organization, because we've got a bunch of you in here. So, you understand how to interpret these nuclear documents. They're nuclear skills. Skills for a nuclear program. So, you're going to build a massive construction project. So, you need brick layers, you need construction workers, construction engineers. You need electrical, mechanical, design engineers who may have built hospital, schools, roads. They don't need nuclear skills. They're skills for your nuclear program. One of the most vital elements that you'll have, and indeed, in new-built countries are finding one of the most challenging areas, is to get highly qualified nuclear welders. So, nuclear-grade welders are welders that could weld to a very, very high standard around the world. Many of them have no nuclear qualification whatsoever, because they're going to weld on a construction site. But they're nuclear-grade welders, because the quality of their welding is really top class. So, there's a really good example of a nuclear, skills for a nuclear program are nuclear, nuclear-grade welders. You speak to a nuclear-grade welder, they have no nuclear qualifications, they're welders. But it's for a nuclear program, as opposed to a design engineer working in a regulator who has a huge amount of nuclear knowledge and skills, because they have to assess this. So, there are two categories you need to consider, and we'll talk about them as we go through. Now, the phase three stuff, workforce plans for operating running plants are really easy, because we've got 450 of them, 440, running around the world. Some of these plants have run, 81 plants out of that 440 have been running for 40 years, which is quite an amazing design and engineering feat when you think about it. These plants were built and designed 40 years ago to the specification, and we still consider they can run safely for another 10, 15 years. That's a fantastic achievement for a nuclear workforce, actually, and a statement to the quality of the people that we have in the nuclear sector. But, nevertheless, lots of people kind of get a bit, embarking countries come to talk to about the operating structure, and our advice is, look, don't worry about the operating structures. When you get halfway through phase three, you can have a look at that, because there's hundreds of plants that work perfectly well with lots of different kind of staffing models and skills model. So, phase three is pretty easy, that's the message, kind of late phase three, into operating lots of models you can take. And indeed, many of the vendors you're working with make experiences most new-built countries, and we'll kind of take the vendors recommended model, because that's what the vendors using in their own countries, and work perfectly well on those design plans. Sometimes the numbers may vary, but, nevertheless, the kind of the requirements in terms of structures pretty much match what you will need, certainly for the first few years of operation. So, things to bear in mind, the number of units you want will really influence your kind of workforce planning. The type of contract will evolve. So, these contracts kind of build on operate, or build on operate transfer, these turkey contracts, as we call them, they're kind of fairly new to the nuclear sector. So, really good example. Anybody from Turkey here? So, Turkey looking at a build on operate contract with their vendor, effectively they're looking to build a plant in the country, the vendor will build it with their staff, not local staff, they'll operate it with their own staff from their host country, and they'll run it for 25 years and sell the electricity back to Turkey. So, that kind of contract's really new, and there are slight variations on that build on operate transfer after five years or ten years. Lots of different models being touted by all the different vendors, not just one vendor. This is a fairly new contractual arrangement in the nuclear sector. Traditionally, to go back 20, 30 years, nuclear plants were base load plants built by governments for national interests. They weren't built to be flexible, load following like a lot of them are now. And they certainly weren't built to be kind of operated and owned by vendors. So, this is a fairly new model for the nuclear sector, and that will really impact your workforce planning model. If the vendor is going to staff it or half staff it, that needs to be factored into your national plan. I will add actually, just as an aside, that this contract is not new in most industries. Lots of manufacturing industries have used these kind of build and operate models for 20, 30, 40, 50 years. It's just new to the nuclear sector. The level of industrial involvement is really important. Again, it's linked to the type of contract. Do you want a massive local involvement from your local regions, your national countries, or do you just want them to come in and build it and give you the cellular electricity or work in partnership with them to get the electricity? My experience, I was involved in the Hinkley Sea project for a number of years. We were pitching to get about 65 to 70% of the local industrial involvement, all the plant supply chain from local industrial involvement. That was one of the, that was one of the promotional ideas we had in gaining local regional government support. So some countries, the level of industrial involvement will really impact it. And if you bear in mind that 20 to one or 100 to one impact, how many people are employed in the local regions? That's really good. But you have to think if you're going to do that, you have that the industrial involvement source has to be qualified to support your plan. So if you're going to get your supply chain capability, you know, your outage maintenance contracts, your day to day servicing capability from your local regions, that those local regions need to be able to supply that. So they may need training and education program in place to support that schools, etc, etc. So your level of industrial involvement will influence your national workforce plan. We would highly recommend that the roles, responsibilities and functions of all the state called organizations, even if they're not established, you really understand what you are going to need in phase one, as early as phase one. And we really would promote that you think about this kind of sustainable workforce program, because what we've already encountered with some embarking countries, new, new real countries, is they put in place programs to get people ready. They've either lost those people, or they've realized that they had gaps in their national plan, they're now, you know, urgently outsourcing from different countries, nuclear skills to come and help bridge that short term gap, because they didn't apply a sustainable, long term workforce capability to their planning. Yeah. Boot, build, own, operate. Sorry. Because we're nuclear, we love Akhenins, don't we? We just love them. Build, own, operate, transfer. Okay. So here's a really good cycle. I'm going to talk about this. So long term HRD recruitment cycle. This cycle applies equally to an operator. But I'm going to, I'm going to come from here, because he's here, excuse me. I don't have a pointer. So this covers recruitment, what you actually need on the ground, and how you're going to lose people from your vision and how you're going to cycle them back in. So let's just talk about recruitment. Okay, how are you going to this? This is, this is your pool of people you need. It looks fairly straightforward, this but there's some kind of little tricks in here. Vendor options. So the vendor will come with lots of different options. Some vendors can help train your regulators. Some vendors will help train all your operating staff. Some vendors will offer to. So the vendor typically, because they're already running nuclear power programs, they have great potential. They already have universities, colleges, vocational capability. They have facilities that you can go and get experience on. So they're a great option to consider. Of course, what's the challenge with that, the option of using vendors? What's the challenge if you let your vendor do it all? Language is one, yeah. So that's really interesting. So to give an example on that, Vietnam are thinking of building two, two, two twin unit sites, one in North Vietnam, one in South Vietnam. One was going to be built by Russian vendor, one was going to be built by a Japanese vendor. So the operators, so they're going to have two separate work pools. The operators who are going to work on the Russian plant were going to Moscow to get trained. The operators who support the build, the operators who are going to work on the Japanese plant were going to Tokyo to get trained. And their language on the build sites was going to be English. So the operators had to speak Vietnamese, Japanese and English on one side. Russian, Vietnamese and English on another side. So just an example, there's a complexity. Okaloto, the plant in Finland. And I was there when they were commissioning some of their outside plant actually. And Okaloto employed a team of about 15 interpreters in their controllers when they were commissioning. Because they had 60 different nationalities on the project. 60 different nationalities on the project. So language is a real challenge in this HRD program, definitely. What's the other challenge with vendors? What's a big challenge? Well, there's a culture, yeah. So there is a culture, but you would hope you would expect a vendor, the vendor organization that you're going to has a pretty strong nuclear safety culture, which is what you want to immerse your people in. You would expect that. So that is a challenge. Different culture, yeah. Country culture, certainly. What's the big challenge if you're going to give it all to a vendor? Yeah, well, that's, yeah, that's another big challenge. Sorry, I missed that. So knowledge transfer. So if you want to take ownership of this plant and your vendor has got all that kind of secret knowledge, then you're going to be limited, aren't you? You're going to be beholding to them for a long time. Have we seen that on some plants? So what, but there's one really big challenge to give it all to a vendor. Well, sustainability is a challenge, yeah. What's the big one? The cost. How much is it going to cost to do all this? Because the vendor, let's be really honest, the vendor is not doing this out the goodness of their heart. They're doing it because they want your money. So it's going to, the vendor can give you all that, but it's going to cost you a lot of money. So recruitment options, education pipelines. We talked about vocational pipelines, existing electricity industry. So this is a really important one. Your country's all embarking countries. You must have electricity supply organizations. You must have grids because you wouldn't be building a nuclear power plant. The plug it into unless you have a decent grid to put it on. So by, by, by that you must have people who manage it, who run it, who fix it when it breaks down. So you already have an existing electricity industry that has most of the core skills you need. Certainly in technician space. You must be running Nigeria. You're on fossil fuel plants, yes? We've got a team from Nigeria here. So you must have coal, gas, oil. Yeah, yeah. So, so you must be training your staff to run those. But you, they'll be in a control room. It's not a nuclear control, but it's a control room. Managing the boilers, managing the furnaces, managing the oil systems, the cooling systems. So you already have that kind of psyche running in your country. That's a great asset to have when you start about planning. Existing nuclear facilities. I mentioned earlier research facilities, medical physics. Lots of people go from medical physics into radiation protection. It's got common movement actually. And ironically because nuclear normally pays more than the health services. So the medical physicists come over and join the nuclear industry. So you have lots of sources of recruitment and expat external sourcing. Recently I was in the UAE where they've got a lot of expats coming in from South Africa, from the UK and from the US, supporting their initial back-end of phase 3 activities. So you've got lots of different vendor recruitment options from vendors to expats. So when you put your plan together, you need to think about that. And that will vary. Different phases, different requirements. So if you think about this bucket we've got here. We've got at the top, we've got external resources, agency workers, specialist consultants, kind of topping up. Your pool of suitably qualified and experienced resource. And we would say that this is really underpinned by competent initial training and development. So your pool, as it were, is going to have input from all of these. It's going to be underpinned by knowledge management and an SAT based training program. So knowledge management is going to inform all of that. And as James said, you really want to be thinking, especially with vendor options, about making sure you've got the right knowledge management knowledge transfer option. So you're going to lose people through resignations, retirements. If you think about this is a turn of 15 year project, didn't we? So if you take somebody who's experienced and qualified in their mid-40s, by the time the plant may get to the back end of phase three, if you've been successful in that in 15 years, every six years, they may be looking to retire. So you have to think about retirement and resignations in your plan. And you need to think about the knowledge transfer and that process. Attrition. So you need to think about how many people you're going to lose to other organizations and other operators. If you train up all these young people into your program, and then a petrochemical organization says, hey, you guys, you've got all the right qualifications, we'll double your salary if you come and work for us. How are you going to manage that process? That's a real challenge for lots of embarking countries. And internal movement. So we would encourage, this is a real positive movement actually, we would encourage internal movement as much as possible, certainly in phase two and phase three. Because the more broader your experience and your workforce gets in this nuclear power program, the more effective they're going to be as you move into phase three and back end of phase three. So that's your kind of recruitment plan, you have to consider all of those. So you have to think about that in terms of life cycle. And your float of your squet resource will change as you need it. But it's a living kind of breathing model that you need to develop. So what we've done here, we mapped out in the three phases just, these aren't exact, some people will change these, but some of the key elements. So we've got, on the bottom, we've got HR activities. On the top, we've got some key programs that play into it. So early in phase one, you're going to stop your nephio, because you're going to establish that to start thinking about, do you want to build a nuclear power program? You're going to even consider, okay, even at this early stage, we would recommend you consider some initial workforce planning. Certainly for the phase one piece, have you got the nephio? Have you got the right people helping you? Have you got the right technical support organizations helping you in the nephio? But even thinking about, well, if we go into phase two and phase three, what, what are the implications? So this initial workforce plan may help inform the government, make the national decision, because they may see that broader economic benefit that you're going to get from it. So that would include identifying the HR investment as you start to develop a localization strategy and it would include really preparing strategies for nuclear safety, security and safeguards as part of that workforce plan in that comprehensive report that you're going to give your government here to make your decision. So this is kind of 15 years at this left side of this scale before you take your reactor critical. So if you're going to phase two, so we're going to assume you've made, yes, we're going to build a nuclear power plant. So you're going to start to establish a regulatory body. You may even start to consider who the owner operator is going to be and start to establish an owner, operate a nuclear power program project team. So at that time, you're going to staff your regulatory body, then you're going to staff your project team, then you're going to start thinking about your education and training infrastructure. Is your education training infrastructure going to be able to support this development and phase three development. So then there's a whole host of HR activities along here, identifying any investment you need, maintaining your workforce plans as you kind of move through establishing agreements with foreign governments and suppliers, getting your technical requirements ready for the first plant, getting ready to kind of do the feasibility study, complete the feasibility study and then maybe start to go out to tender at this stage. So even at that stage, you're thinking about all the other workforce plans that sit underneath that. And then in phase three, so you've picked your plant or you've completed your negotiations. So you know what you're going to build, you know where you're going to build it. And you're going to start thinking about your licensing, your construction, your fuel load, your commissioning and then a transfer if it's going to be transferred. So sitting underneath that, you've got to start implementing all your policies. You need a training program to support testing and commissioning. You need to get that early on so that those people who are going to operate the plant up here, go through the commissioning to capture all those lessons on the plant. You're going to have an onsite training center, you're going to make sure you've got knowledge management processes in place to capture all that essential knowledge during commissioning. You're going to have a simulator in there, you want your operators trained really early. The best world's best practice is to have your first batch of operators ready to form part of the commissioning teams so that they can be actively involved in that commissioning. Then you're authorizing your plant stuff here and all this time you're managing this workforce plan upgrading it, thinking about what do we need when we take the reality critical. So it kind of runs through all those steps in the milestones on phase three. Not all the steps are, these will vary from country to country. So some of these, you know, maybe in different sequences but the purpose of these last three slides are just to give you an indication of the magnitude of the planning you need to do this problem. So let's just look at some profiles in terms of numbers of people. This excludes vendor or supply chain support and construction stuffing. So we'll do construction stuffing in a minute. And so here's a picture of the NEPIO, the regulator and the TSOs supporting the NEPIO, the regulator and the owner operator. So in total, it's only about 350 people when you look at this. And you can see the NEPIO here, this yellow line that kind of starts about year 11, year 10 and then grows to its peak of about 150 people for a typical twin unit site. You can see the pink line here is the kind of owner-operated technical support organization which gradually over time builds up. Often this is contractorized, so you'll buy this in from a specialist vendor. You can see owner-operated headquarters stuff, so maybe 50-ish, their headquarters. So these are very much the kind of offsite support stuff and you can see the regulator here in the black dotted line goes to about 120 maybe between unit sites with no other nuclear organization. So it's not a lot really, not a lot of people. So let's look at the twin unit profile on the site itself which goes up to about five and a half thousand people. And again this varies depending on how the national models developed and how the country developed it, but you can see professional management staff, project management staff, civil engineering, electrical mechanical INC and operations. And again the operations kicks in quite late actually as you can see, but the bulk workforce is the civil construction and the mechanical electrical INC work. This is a pretty common curve you see most new plants being built around the world that will have similar curves. The numbers might be different and the shape slightly different but they're not far off. So you can get the indications that when we talk about skills for nuclear and nuclear skills, I think doesn't work. The blue and the yellow curves, the bulk staff nearly three thousand each, they're kind of skills for the nuclear program. They're not necessarily nuclear skills. Some countries will be challenged to get these skills because you may also be building hospitals, roads, schools, big construction projects, airports, dams. So you may have to compete financially with those organizations or the vendor may to source these numbers which ultimately will lead back to the bill the vendor gives you to stuff that. So that's worth bearing in mind as well. So just to kind of look at the Nepio. So we've got some Nepio graphs in phase one, phase two and phase three. We would expect, oh sorry, you can see that we don't have a lot of people in the Nepio. Maybe through this pre-featability in here those have to fade off. Maybe there's some extension in multiple units but it's not a lot of people. If you look at the regulator, as typically the Nepio falls off a lot of them joined the regulatory functions which is a common practice we see in many countries. And again you can see, should be another, yeah, two kind of little sub-peaks here. So the regulator may top up their staff during the kind of initial phase here when they're talking to the government about nuclear plants and certainly during this phase when they're issuing construction licenses and operating licenses towards the end of phase three. So there's kind of peaks and troughs might go up to four hundred people from some organizations. Some organizations that already have an existing nuclear regulatory function have slightly less. But you can see there are kind of pretty common trends across most of these organizations around the world. An owner operator, so owner operator, Green Line, really, we have a few supports up here but it's out to take off here. And again, if you look at this it's kind of six years before the plant goes into commissioning that they're really starting to stuff up because they want these people involved in this commissioning, they want them qualified and trained. So that gives you an indication of the kind of time frames involved for the NEPIO, the regulator, owner operator. There are obviously other groups. There's technical support organizations that we don't know what your model is and there's kind of links to vendors and supply chain. We haven't put them up here. So this builds on something I said earlier really. This contractual arrangement is really important. The majority of your project staff in phase three could be vendor staff or their contractors. The skills required to support the nuclear program will be a range of engineering, project management and construction skills. And nuclear skills during this construction phase will be very limited. And in fact, non-nuclear science and engineering degree qualifications are often preferable to nuclear specific for lots of these construction organizations. INC especially, INC engineering, mechanical electrical engineering rather than nuclear engineering. You need a few nuclear engineers when you're operating, a few to help with the design stuff. But for the big construction projects, you want big civil engineering organization. And the time frame for that. So as you go into phase three, you're going to be recruiting and training, training, commissioning, commissioning. So there's a lot of kind of crossover and your planning for your people needs to take into account all those three curves in terms of the construction and commissioning timescale because you want them all ready for the operating. OK. So to help member states do this, we encourage them to develop a national workforce plan. And we would sit down with those countries and help them develop that plan. We also run a couple of training courses that you're all eligible and welcome to come to. We have a number of, we have a team actually where it's in Sean's group and they can develop, they have some models that you can use digital models to build a national workforce plan. So it's a three to five day course. I think they're running one for Nigeria. We may have won one recently. I can't remember. But we certainly ran them for most of the embarking countries and a few countries that are even in phase one to help them build their plan. So it's a three to five day course where we take a team of people from the host country of sorry, from the embarking country bring them to Vienna and we train them on this software tool where you can build a model and then we give you the licenses to take back to your country and then you can keep running the model. It's extremely useful. That's on Twitter. I saw on Twitter the other day there was a feed about it. So if you check your Twitter from the IAA you'll see it. So part of that training course is we teach you how to build this plan. So I'm just going to go through what the plan looks like, what we would recommend. So it's not a fixed template. You can adjust it to your national needs. As I said earlier, something needs regular update and evolution. It needs to cover all the phases and it's a national program. And it needs to consider the project requirements and the operational requirements. And significantly, many countries are using this modeling tool together with this plan to work out the costs. How much is it going to cost for all these people? Because that's often a factor in making the decision. Yes, we're going to go for a nuclear. No, we're not. So this software program tool that we give you can help do the cost analysis for the HR capital. So the typical content, we it has the introductory stuff about your program roadmap, your time scales, but it includes your goals and assumptions as well. Then we talk about the HR requirements itself. So it talks about the nephio. So we say, what's the structure? What are the roles and responsibilities? What are the competencies? How many people do you need in each? We repeat that for the owner, operator and the regulatory body. It includes the education strategy and the training strategy as well as a requirement. So understand what you've got right now, understand what you need in the future, understand what the vendor can give you. And then it kind of talks about recruitment, qualification and selection. Recruitment strategies, candidate selection process, really important actually. Increasingly so, this kind of behavioral piece and this ethics piece. Qualification approach and strategy, the lead times by job categories and recruitment from existing national industries as I mentioned, the petrochemical industry or the existing electricity supply industry. HR approaches, how much are you going to pay them? How are you going to retain them? What you can offer them in terms of succession and career management? So these kind of three issues, you know, paying them, retaining them and offering them succession are key to holding on to that workforce. So if you think you've done all this work, you've paid all this money to educate, train, qualify these people. The last thing you want to do is lose that investment. Typically to qualify, certainly a reactor operator. It's about half a million US dollars per reactor operator. So that's a massive investment. Massive investment. If you lose five or six reactor operators, a couple of million dollars you've lost. So having paid them enough or having a pay structure that meets their needs and holds them in your organization. Having some kind of benefit scheme that helps retention. It may be education scheme for their families. It may be health care for their families. It may be enhanced holiday, flexible working, all these different things. Session in career management. So you really want to offer these people that you've invested so heavily in a viable future career across a number of roles. So traditionally, because I'm quite old, you were just happy to get a good secure job that had a good pension and you had a job for life. But lots of the embark, lots of the workforce people now, the younger graduate generation, they kind of might not want to just do one thing the rest of their lives. They may want to do lots of different things. So you have to think about how do we create an environment that gives our people that session in career management throughout their whole worker life cycle. Because that's a massive investment you've made. And of course, one of the real challenges in managing project delays I had some personal experience with this at Hinkley. Hinkley C was delayed twice. The first time we delayed the project we had about 800 people on the new nuclear build organization. We had to reduce that to 400. So we had to redistribute with those people into the existing generation organization. Some people sadly left or went to other more conventional project organizations. We then re-staffed up to a couple of hundreds, about 650. We then had to lose another 200 because we got onto a second delay period. So we had to kind of be really creative about those project delays and how we redistribute with those staff and then how we brought them back. So you will need to consider in your workforce plan how do you manage those project delays. Knowledge of management, you need to make sure in your plan you, it's a golden thread that runs through lots of stuff actually knowledge of management. We kind of sometimes box it up into one place but actually every piece of the nuclear sector has to consider knowledge management whether you're nuclear safety or whether you're, unless you're planning, you need to make sure you capture, transfer and promote knowledge across all these people in your organization. Yep. Well, we, that's a good question. We use the workforce plan, the outputs from your plan. We use the numbers in the financial modeling for putting together the business case for an individual building. We encourage member states to use those numbers, we don't. But we don't, because the final random reason we don't include costs in this is because the costs vary so much to school and educate somebody in, say the United States, costs completely different to school and educate somebody in South Africa or in the UK or in Russia. So the cost variations across all of these are huge. So we couldn't really give you a definitive number like how much would it cost to educate a person in secondary school or primary school because it's based on your national model. Well, there is a group, the PAS group, and they do a lot of financial modeling. So there is a group that you can sit down and work with and they can help you plug your numbers into their models. So there is, we don't do it here but there is a group that can help you with financial modeling about the economic costs of nuclear. So I can give you that later if you want and get their contacts because they can do that. In fact, they help, they work with us when we do the courses for the National Workforce Modelling Plan. They actually work with us, they run the course with us and they help the country structure their workforce plans on the spreadsheets, et cetera. Okay, here's some lessons that we've learned. Plan early, you want the nephew and regulators qualified really before you went to phase two and for the owner-operator before commissioning. You need to understand your education model and the program needs from designing, engineering, commissioning and operation. So you really need to understand your education training models and how they plug in. We would actively encourage all embarking countries to you to maximize the vendor capability through training and experience. Some vendors offers the comments of stuff for several years. Myself, I was involved in the PWR project in the UK in the early 90s. So I spent 12 months in the States, six months in France looking at how they operated their PWRs because I came from a gas reactor background. hugely valuable, those are comments and we would recommend you consider incorporating those into your vendor arrangements but understand the costs. They're also can offer specific technical training. Lots of the vendors have dedicated nuclear training facilities that you can use as part of your preparation for your own people. Maintain a flexible approach to stuff development. So that movement from construction to operation and the different role changes really encourage that because you've invested significantly in those people in phases one and two. Stakeholder expectations and management. So it's really important that the trade unions, the regulators and indeed other nuclear operators in some countries are really kind of supportive of what you're trying to do. So you're kind of working in partnership with them. Certainly the trade unions in many countries. This is a great source of employment, future security for some of their members so they could be a really strong ally in that process. Other nuclear operators, if you wanna kind of minimize the loss of employees to these operators, we would advise you very early on to come into some agreements where you don't poach each other's staff, et cetera. That's a common agreement that you see in lots of countries now. Knowledge management and technical succession management links to recruitment. So yeah, this is really important. You need to think about if you've got some really good engineers, electrical, mechanical, I&C engineers on your project, who you want to retain or you want to retain their knowledge, you need to think about putting a plan in place to capture their knowledge or get a trainee in place alongside the more experienced engineer so that there's some technical succession. I don't mean management succession of leaders, I mean technical succession, two different things. Okay, and as ever, we've got lots of guidance. Certainly the workforce planning education training, the documents are very closely related. And the Nuclear Power Human Resource Modeling Tool is a tool that I mentioned. And as I said, if anybody's interested in attending a course or having a course run for your country, then through the technical operation department, we can arrange that or we can run a course for you. And I would strongly recommend it, it's a very good course. And we've got the digital hub that will have some information on. Some information right here. You can ask him if we're linking there. We were trying to link the modeling tool onto the hub. I'm not sure we can do that yet, but that's a kind of end goal. Okay, so we talked about the three phases and the milestones. We talked about this HID recruitment lifecycle, so recruit, develop, and then lose and how that's a continuous cycle. We talked about nuclear skills and skills for nuclear, which is a key understanding really for embarking countries. We talked about the major content of the plan and we talked about some of the guidance. Okay, any questions? I know I've kind of flown through that, but yes? So human resource development and workforce planning. So you would really say that workforce planning is a subset of human resource development. So in human resource development, you've got education, training, workforce planning, knowledge, management, so you've got all those aspects of human resource development. Workforce planning is kind of one of those subsets, if you like, under the umbrella of HR, human resource. So if you give me the question, 13 and 14.