 Welcome to what the F is going on in Latin America and the Caribbean. CodePink's weekly YouTube program of hot news out of Latin America and the Caribbean. In partnership with Friends of Latin America, Massachusetts Peace Action and Task Force on the Americas, we broadcast every Wednesday on CodePink YouTube at 4.30 p.m. Pacific, 7.30 p.m. Eastern. I'm happy to introduce to you this evening as my co-host, Joav Elanetsky from Mass Peace Action, our new broadcast partner in addition with Task Force on the Americas and Friends of Latin America. Welcome Joav and thank you so much for joining us this evening. He will be co-hosting tonight and I also want to introduce to you our guest. As you all know, tonight's program is entitled Alex Sob Sanctions and the Extra-Dudicial Reach of the United States. And the case of Alex Sob is a really important judicial subject for all of us to discuss, particularly how the U.S. is behaving in this case. And so let me tell you a little bit about John because I think you'll all be very impressed with his work and his history, his body of work. And then we'll have Joav give us a bit of a background for all of you as to the Sob case and Venezuela and the Venezuelan U.S. foreign relations situation because that has so much to do with the current situation with Ambassador Sob. And then John can give us an update and answer questions and put your questions in the YouTube chat please as to what is currently happening with Alex and where we go from here. So let me tell you a little bit about John. John is an experienced international defense attorney before the International Criminal Courts, ICC, ICTR and in Canada. He has been active in Africa, Latin America and Europe as well as Canada. He's a frequently invited speaker at international conferences and webinars. He's an advisor on international legal issues to governments and non-governmental organizations. He's also a former judge at the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal. He's a member of the Free Alex Sob Committee, which we will talk more about this evening as well. He's a member of the Free Alex Sob Committee of the Cross Canada Campaign to Free Meng Wansu, President of the Rwanda Political Prisoner Support Network. And he's also part of the Coalition BDS Quebec. So, and you can find John at johnphillpot.com and it's J-O-H-N-P-H-I-L-P-O-P dot com. So welcome y'all and welcome, John. It's an honor to have you both with us this evening and let's, let's start our conversation. Okay, thank you, Terry, and thank you, John. It's good to be here with you because this is a very important issue that we are dealing with. This story exposed the lawlessness, the hypocrisy of the United States government and the light spread around the world about what it is doing. I just wanted to tell you the story very shortly about Alex Saeb and the historical context to this story. So Alex Saeb is a Venezuelan businessman and a diplomat. He was arrested, he was kidnapped and arrested on June 12, 2020 on the order of the US government while his plane was on refueling stop in Cape Verde. He was forced forcibly removed from the plane in prison and held under torturous conditions. It has been more than 400 days since Alex remains imprisoned. Alex was on his way to Iran for an official visit in search of food, medicine and gasoline to elevate the crisis in Venezuela resulted from the regime, an extra territorial sanction imposed by the United States to punish the people of Venezuela. I wanted to remember how devastating the sanctions are where people have to wait for nine hours on gas lines when trucks cannot deliver food from the countryside because they don't have the diesel fuel. They cannot get medicine to heal themselves. And it cause as we all know, by a study that was done by Mark Weisbrot and Jeffrey Sash, they calculated that between 2017 and 2018, 40,000 Venezuelans died as a result of the sanctions. Well, this is three years later you can do the calculation and you can, we can see the devastation here. It, we must see also that it was the Trump administration that that ordered the arrest of Alex Saib, and I just found out that as a matter of fact, at one point, the US sent navy warships to go to the island to keep an eye on Alex Saib. Now, I just want to give a very brief, maybe one more thing before I talk about the US-Venezuela relationship. I think that maybe John can also discuss this fact that the United States is now planning to build a 350, 400 million dollar embassy in Cape Verde, a country of no more than 100,000 people. So it's a, it's, it's, and then some of this money will go to, to benefit, to benefit some elites in Cape Verde, and this is in return for arresting Alex Saib. Okay, very briefly, historical context. 1999, Chavez is elected to president of Venezuela. Three years later under Bush, there is a coup against Chavez. He was arrested for 47 hours and if it wasn't for the masses in Venezuela that went to the street, went in Caracas to the presidential palace that demanded the return of Chavez, he would be done with in three years after his election. But this was not the only coup. In 2019, as you remember, Guaidó is calling for openly for an uprising against Maduro supported by the United States. In May 2020, 300 heavily armed volunteers invaded Venezuela with the goal of raid military bases, ignite popular rebellion against the government of Maduro. This is something that maybe John can explain to us is the relationship with the fact that Saib is held in prison after the Venezuelan government sentenced to former American soldiers who participated in the last invasion of Venezuela. He was holding Alex in order to swap so-called prisoners. But the coup was not the only tool that the US used. There is military pressure in June, in the summer of 2020, the US sent Navy ships to the coast of Venezuela to intimidate other countries from delivering oil and supply to Venezuela. In terms of the sanction, we need to remember that the sanction started in 2006, supposedly because the government of Venezuela is not collaborating with the United States in the drug war, which is complete nonsense. And then in 2008, Bush blamed Chavez for supporting his Bala in Lebanon, total nonsense, total lies. In 2015, Obama issued a new executive order declaring a national emergency with respect to the unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States posed by the situation in Venezuela. And then the sanction regime accelerated. In 2019, as we said, when the United States recognized Gaido, they also imposed sanctions on the Venezuelan state oil company, the central bank, and the government. They also imposed additional financial sanctions on Venezuela that prohibited access to US financial markets by Venezuela government, including the oil company. And then in 2018, I'm sorry, 2020, the Treasury began sanctions against company from overseas that are doing business with Venezuela, specifically the Russian state oil company and Chinese oil companies that are doing business in Venezuela. This is the context. And I think that's how we need to look also at the case of Alex side as part of the pressure of the US government to impose a regime change in Venezuela. Thank you, you are for that excellent background and thinking in our next guest is john bill pot and john I think this case, you know you have has explained all the hindrances place via sanctions on Venezuela for participating in the global economy. And Alex saw has been was made an ambassador of Venezuela, so that he could travel and conduct business transactions on behalf of the state of Venezuela. And basically, he was a sanctions work around, and I would argue that's the, that's why he's sitting in prison today. Well, that is the center of it. And let's extradition is not that complicated. A murder, a murderer and Montreal was in Boston. And Alex says for producing a summary of the evidence and having him transferred or surrendered to Montreal to Canada. I'm in Canada to stand trial, and it should be routine, but there's lots of exceptions, but you don't study the merits of the case. In other words, whether the person has an alibi. Now, Alex was on a stop over unplanned stop over, and he was arrested on a, what they said was a red notice from Interpol is actually in the wrong name and it came out a day later. But he was arrested and held in Communicado for from June till December. And the lawyers from his lawyers in London, a very good team of lawyers who applied and got him a house arrest in the island of Sal in Cape Verde. And it's not really, he's not, he's not being tortured but he can't move and he's surrounded by police, but he's in house arrest you can't but he can't go anywhere. And he doesn't have the medical treatment that he needs because he's suffering from cancer. Now, he did not want to be transferred to the to be sent to the US to stand trial, and he applied locally to the court to hasn't have himself released. And then he made a legal application to the regional court of the economic community of West African states, which is the court of ultimate jurisdiction, like the Supreme Court in the US for Americans. And this court studied his case very carefully. I've read the judgment and said, you got to let him out right away and you got to pay him $200,000. And it was illegal his arrest that was on March 15, 2020 Cape Verde, who is under this tremendous economic pressure from the US. It's a tiny country, and this all this money and all these jobs available by US is trying to have a new out base on the around Africa because Africa is a US wants to is losing out and wants to try and have a military and economic influence on this part of Africa. So, anyway, this court ordered him release they didn't pay attention to him. And that's member he's a diplomat. Let's just clarify let's just clarify something for the audience that yes he is he's an ambassador is a special envoy ambassador of the Venezuelan government appointed by the president. And so you're looking at the United States putting pressure on the country to detain a diplomat. And just so the audience is clear, he ambassador sob was flying and correct me if I'm wrong john flying from Caracas to Iran to procure food and gasoline for Venezuela and this is where the sanctions work around is involved. Exactly. That's exactly right. And he's a diplomat in transit. He's not accredited to keep Verdi, he's a diplomat in transit. He was going to be extra special representative to the African Union. Now. So, he also applied to the United Nations Human Rights Commission Committee, and he was worried about being tortured or being badly treated in the US, just like Julian Assange his, his sentence was equivalent to torture, we will recall. The Human Rights Committee rendered a judgment on the 8th of June saying to Cape Verde, don't extradite him until we study the case on the merits. Cape Verde seems to be ignoring all these judgments. Even they went to the, they went, they say that the West African court doesn't have jurisdiction, but they went back and argued to change the judgment in in late June. They made an application to this court to try and have it overthrown and verse and it wasn't so they accepted this judgment. The lawyers who are very, very competent applied to the constitutional court to declare it unconstitutional. This court has to render judgments within 30 days, and they kept putting it off and putting it off. And finally, on the 30th of August or 31st, 31st, they rendered a judgment, saying that he could be extradited and we are sort of concerned about his immediate extradition, but I must say that his lawyers are not overly worried, of course, but they're very, very confident in the recourses that remain and the international campaign to have him released. And so we have to look to the future and this is why this kind of webinar is extremely important. I want to address some of the legal issues which are going to affect third world or third world other countries in their relationship with the US. Alex Sab is charged with money laundering, where he's supposed to have extorted money from the Venezuelan government in Venezuela. And they laid these charges in a southern Florida district court. And they apparently are getting jurisdiction because some of the co-conspirators lived in Florida, but it's kind of funny saying, you know, US laying charges for something which, if true, happened in Venezuela. And that's not true because we all know there's a process going on in Mexico right now. And the sad case is being brought into the issues in the reconciliation, which is necessary in Venezuela. Can I just interrupt for a minute, because you just said something that I find fascinating and I've probably heard it before, but coming from you, I heard it quite differently. So the United States claims that Alex Sab was committing criminal activity in Venezuela, where he is a citizen, Colombian born, but now a Venezuelan citizen. And the US is pressing charges based on that. This has to deal with national sovereignty. These are national sovereignty issues. That is exactly the point. Now they have a law that you can't bribe foreign governments, the US does, but that's what they're trying to do. And this relates to the situation of Meng Wanzhou of China. China. She is the chief financial officer for Huawei was on transit. And she was arrested on the first of August 2018 for a fraud case in the same dates 2013 2014. Here's the context. Huawei negotiated with HSBC Bank with the senior executives about contract with Iran for one of its subsidiaries and the HSBC knew everything about it. And the US based on illegal, extraterritorial, extraterritorial sanctions in forbidding anyone to do business with Iran. HSBC's in Hong Kong said she tried by misrepresenting the situation to commit fraud against HSBC. And remember, Hong Kong is part of China. And they got jurisdiction because for a millisecond, the transaction, the payments went through a New York bank. Now, this has been going on. The extradition case has been going on since August 2018. She's just passed her 1000 days. I'm having a webinar on this next week, next, the 22nd, and I will ask Terry to send the announcement around to you, because it overlaps relating to sovereignty. And the case is going, there's something, there's some possibility of winning the case. And it comes down to Canada, trying to act in a sovereign manner with respect to the US. We are in Canada, we suffer, we have bad relations with the US right now, with China right now, because we've detained one of their leading people, leading business persons who are dignified, like Alex Sab, a dignified man, well off, but loyal to the government which he is serving. And there is another issue that is that appears here, because if you're arresting Alex Sab, because supposedly he was involved in bribe dealing with the Venezuelan government, you are also questioning the legitimacy of the Venezuelan government in this way. Another word, you are, because the Venezuelan government is not arresting Saib, they don't think that Alex Sab committed any crime on the contrary, he was helping Venezuela. So by arresting him supposedly for involving in crime against the Venezuelan government, they are delegitimizing the Venezuelan government. So the US in its extradition policies is not really concerned about being fair, they're concerned about weakening and intimidating. Now the Alex Sab campaign, which I joined in with this spring has been doing a lot of activity. It's very important that the people listening to this, and I know Terry Madsen through sanctions kill, they sent an emergency delegation to Cape Verde from the June 3 to June 10. They've got a lot of press and they also have an international appeal with 15,000 signatures sent to the President of the US and Prime Minister of Cape Verde having him released. There's a large archive of materials available. There's a webinar on the 19th of May with the lawyers for Mr. Sab, Mr. Almeida, Mr. Felana, William Kema Carroll and myself, Stan Fultz Smith, and Sarah Flounders. And also Massachusetts Peace Action held a webinar on the 10th of August. There's a strong social media campaign and the Sab defense team is confident of achieving his release. The legal process is far from over. Both of our Baltas are Ghazan, former well known of the Odian National from Spain, the detention of the Venezuelan diplomat is a barbarity. They want to condemn the process and criticize this. I know where I see judgments and when you see a judgment which is patched together and doesn't make sense. This is what this constitutional court did, and Cape Verde is not terribly sovereign. It's very small. You understand that they're terrified and intimidated by the US, can't accept it, they should resign, but you understand the pressure that they did, and they wrote this nonsense judgment, saying it was constitutional. The issue is now an international issue. It has to be taken up even more strongly than ever. And it's in the forum, of course, which is being of discussion in Mexico right now. In our audience, what John is referring to is the Venezuelan dialogue happening that Mexico is hosting between the elected, democratically elected government of Venezuela, and, and the opposition. And they just finished their second round here in Mexico and the third round will be starting in October, I believe. John, I wanted to ask you, can Alex Saib see his family? Can, when the delegation, the international delegation, when they went to Cape Verde, were they able to meet with him? I understand they did meet them, but I'm not sure of all the details of who met who. I understand he was moved to one of the main islands to see doctors, but some people say that was a fake thing because they're getting ready to transfer him. I don't know the answer to that. He's had a very difficult time. And we don't want him to go to the US, because I don't know whether you know the statistics of the federal court system, but they always get there a man. The conviction rate is so high in the US District Court. I've been involved in trial, a trial or two in the US as an advisor, and so we do not want him to go to the US. He cannot have a fair trial in the US, whatever anybody says. Is there a way to slow down the process so that maybe during the negotiation in Mexico between the government and the opposition, a deal will be able to. Well, I think so. I'm not his counsel, so I'm not sure of everything that's going to happen. I know that his lawyers in the US are applying to the court to have the case dismissed because of his diplomatic status. And there's a, I think this is a brief going to be filed in about two weeks on this. So, but second guessing a court and court results and what's going to happen legally when you're not on the case. I'm humble enough to know that I don't know, because I've done enough litigation myself to know that you don't even know what's going to happen in two weeks, but it's certainly far from over. And this is an issue for everybody, every diplomat, every UN person who travels the US acts above the law in trying to get their hands on people they don't want. It's another branch of their aggression sanctions policy hybrid war with. This is another subject of course which we should. I think we have to study it because they don't intervene directly and bomb directly as much as before. But their policy is as aggressive as ever, Sanctions policy. Sanctions kill has just published its report for the Biden government Biden administration, and we actually I co authored it with Rick Sterling and David Paul, and it was distributed yesterday. And we hope to participate in this international debate about sanctions, because it's almost worse than war. I don't think it's hard to say it's worse than a hot war. It's worse than a hot war and Madeline silent Madeline Albright saying the sanctions on a wreck, even though it killed 500,000 children, it was worth it. Who can think that. And we know people. I wanted to ask you about the Y, the Y case in Canada. What is the public opinion in in in Canada about her arrest. Well, there's a lot of support for her. And there's a lot of propaganda against her. And this issues being raised we're having a federal election right now. And they're saying that we cannot let her go because China's arrested the two Michaels to foreign to Canadians working in China, who actually been photographed and they photographed military installations, and one guy sent them to the other guy one of the Michael sent it to and these men are allegedly hostages for Meng Wanzhou, but there is an independent trials of these men. One man's been convicted and got 11 years. Another man's having his trial his judgment quite soon. But these are spies. Canada they criticize these as secret trials, but in any country when there's national security issues, the trials are secret. You know, I mean Canada has secret trials and secret evidence when when there's national security issues at stake so. So in Canada there's a very strong campaign and to get her released and it hurts Canada, Canada in the West they have a lot of business with one of the biggest most important business partners partners for China. We should have a proper relationship as the US should with China, and, and history will tell us where we're going and this is part of our campaign to stop sanctions, as sanctions policy. We are fighting for a multilateral lateral world where you don't have sanctions and the countries deal with one another, according to the United Nations Charters, and not what's called what the US calls or the Canada calls the rules based international order which is the power of the mighty. No, the rule, the international community is defined by the 1946 Charter of the United Nations sovereign equality of nations, do not interfere in the eternal affairs. Sanctions are a crime against humanity when it makes people suffer, and the people impose the sanctions intend the results, which they do. They know very well that people are going to die. And this applies to the Caesar sanctions in Syria. It applies to Iran. It applies to Zimbabwe. It applies to Gaza. It applies to North Korea. It applies to Venezuela, and so on Cuba. This is Cuba for 60 plus years. Yes, of course, and maybe one can say I eat you for more than 200 years. Yeah, yeah. So this is. I shouldn't laugh. I shouldn't laugh at the Cuban. They said to the Cuban all your, your, your, the sanctions and blockade against you is only 60 years. We are suffering from this heavy handed for already 200 years. The US didn't want a black country to be independent. They didn't like that in 1804. That's another issue, but it's still very important, of course. We're in our closing minutes. John, we could return briefly to a comment you made about how the sob case, how there was, however, you know, the result comes, how the situation that has led up to his arrest his detainment and whatever the result of the cases how it's going to you mentioned the third world and, you know, in other countries that are 100% aligned with the United States. Well, when they plan their cases, they do it in the State Department and in the prosecutor's offices, and no one knows about them. The Meng indictment was adopted in January or February 2018 and she got it served on her August 1, 2018, more or less. Okay. The sad indictment related to events five, six years ago, and it came out now came out a year ago year and a half ago. So, there's probably more hidden and coming up. And there are many ways in which countries are trying to bypass sanctions now. And US sanctions are not that strong. I mean, they're strong and they're, they hurt a lot, but some countries can bypass them a little bit, and they're going to probably bypass them more. Who is next businessman there's a businessman from North Korea whose name I don't know, who was extradited a year ago from Malaysia. It's also very serious, because he did business, and he broke sanctions against North Korea and the US got their hands on him. So how many more are there? I don't know, but diplomats are in danger. Businessmen, business persons are in danger, men, women, persons are in danger, are in danger, and we don't know. We don't, you know, you know, John, we can also add the extra judicial killing that the United States, for example, murdering, killing Soleimani in Iraq or the way Israel is assassinating people. It's this kind of being above the law and taking the law to their own hands. That's certainly true. It's a different issue of it, but it's the same. It's that extra judicial reach. Yeah, yeah, it's that extra judicial reach of the United States and the complete lack of respect for the rights and sovereignty of other nations. Actually, we can even add the killing, the murdering of American citizens in Yemen, which was extra judicial against American citizens. The man and his boy was killed, they were American citizens. So what should, what have we not addressed regarding the significance of the sob case? He's, what's the current, is he, he was to be extradited, that has been appealed and he has not been extradited at this point? He lost his appeal. He lost, okay. What can we do, what can we do, John? What can we do here? The lawyers have plans and they want their other recourses to the UN and to the regional court. I do not know exactly what their plans are because they're, it's a recent event. I know they're going to, there's going to have the, the SAB committee is going to have another conference soon. I don't have the date for it. And people should sign the petition at, I can, I can send the link for the petition to Terry right now in a few minutes. We should mention that. Can you read it out loud for our audience? So they can hear it. It's, it's a solidarity center petition, which is sent to the US president, the president and prime minister of cable cap Verde, and I will have, I will ask Terry to post it in the next half hour. So, I think this is a very ongoing struggle. And we have to strengthen our solidarity strengthen our fight on this case. We've been on this for four or five months now, and it's far from over. How can we help? How can them, how can people here in the United States help? Because they can sign the petition, and they can contact the SAB committee, and we will have that all that information available. I'll post that in the, in the, in the comments of tonight's broadcast. So that all of you can can see it there. Great, great. So, so this is so. It's shocking. I mean, when you talk to US citizens about it, I can't speak for Canada, John, you can. It's, it's people don't even can't even grasp what the case is about because it's so hard for people to understand and or believe this extra judicial reach of the United States, this push for one world one order led by the United States and its principal allies. And that includes everything militarily, economic, global currency, political, all of it. It's very hard. I mean, this case is such a great case study in what the United States is attempting to do. It's very I'm so happy for your time tonight because it's, it's so important to keep, to keep everyone apprised of what's happening and, and, and the significance of what's happening. Is there anything that we should address before we anything we forgotten anything that you know there's there's there's the attempt to bully Africa is a very important aspect because the African Bar Association, which I know well has protested the African Union. He's a delegate to the African Union. Why do they need a $340 million embassy in Cape Verde, if it's not to suit and control Africa. We know about, and this something you should study look at the gray zone on this, the conflict over Ethiopia near Atreia and the Tigray so called rebellion, which is not a rebellion. And the attempt to control that strategic area. These are things which progressives and citizens should try and understand. Look at the gray zone. Look at the tailor report in Canada. It's, there's a lot of material, because the US is not going to give up easily they're losing. They're not as strong as they used to be, but they're not down yet and they have to change their approach to the world. And so, and a lot of people don't realize that this is the, it's an aggressive power, which is trying to control by, I would call them lies. These legal issues are lies. And I mean, obviously we're all concerned about Julian Assange, but that's, and it's extremely important. This is another example of what they what they're doing to this man who all he did is expose us war crimes in Iraq. That's all he did and he's being extra the pushes to extradite him to the United States to stand trial where he isn't even a, where he isn't even a citizen than Australian So that again that extra judicial reach for that US as the world's police judge and jury. It's quite, it's quite alarming. And we really have our work cut out for us and I so appreciate the work that both of you are doing and so I want to just give the audience two websites and then I'll also post it in the comments so that you can easily find things as well. But sanctions kill.org is sanctions kill. You can see T I O N S K I L L dot org and you can find the audience can find the sanctions report that was published yesterday that is on that site. And then also john you mentioned the prior webinar on Alex sob that mass peace action. I posted that can be found on mass peace actions YouTube channel and mass peace action on the internet is M a S S P E a C A C T I O N dot org. I want to remind our audience that you have been watching what the F is going on in Latin America, Code pinks weekly YouTube program of hot news out of Latin America and the Caribbean, you broadcast in partnership with Massachusetts peace action friends of Latin America and Task Force on the Americas. And also, you can now find us on Apple podcasts and Spotify. And I also want to remind all of you that code pink radio broadcasts every Thursday morning at 11am Eastern on WBAI out of New York City and simulcasts out of Washington DC and WPFW. So thank you gentlemen, and I hope that we have a follow up conversation as this as this case proceeds. We'll just keep the audience informed is this very, very important human rights, economic rights, national sovereignty I don't know there's so many, there's so many issues wrapped into into this one man's this one man being basically a political prisoner. I would just like to tell our audience that it's important to spread the word about this case to expose the criminality, the hypocrisy, the line which is involved in this case and the danger that john very well explained to the implication, the international implication of this case as the case of the, the Chinese woman in Canada, in the Y company so thank you john, it was great to do. Thank you. I enjoy listening to you thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you everyone will see you next week on code pink YouTube at 730pm Eastern good night.