 Hey everybody, today we are debating whether or not E-sex work should be destigmatized in We're Starting right now. Bees and gentlemen, thrilled to have you here for another epic debate. If this is your first time here at Modern Day Debate, wanna let you know I'm your host James and we're excited to let you know that our vision for this channel is to host debates in the most fair way possible so everybody can have their shot to make their case on an equal playing field. So if it's your first time here as well, wanna let you know, we're excited as we have many more debates to come. So consider hitting that subscribe button as for example, tonight we will be hosting a debate on whether or not white privilege is real. So, or I'm sorry, male privilege. White privilege is next week. So whether or not male privilege is real is tonight so that should be a juicy one and we are very excited to let you know as well. We are thankful to have our guests here today. Both Ruby and Dr. S.J., I have put their links in the description folks so that way if you would like to hear more, you can hear more by clicking on those links down below and also wanna let you know a couple of things for this debate. First the format, it's going to be fairly flexible. In particular, it'll be about five to 10 minutes from each speaker followed by open conversation after those intro statements and then Q&A. So if you happen to have a question, feel free to fire it into the old live chat. I will try to get every question into our Q&A list. If you tag me with at modern day debate, makes it easier for me to get every question and Super Chat is also an option. In which case, you can not only ask a question but if you'd like, you can make a statement toward the speakers or a speaker. Of course they would get a chance to respond to that statement and last, Super Chats will push your question or comment to the top of the list for the Q&A. So we are excited to get the ball rolling. We are going to have the affirmative start. So in particular, that for this debate is Ruby. So want to say first though, before we do get the ball rolling, thanks so much Ruby and SJ just for being here. It's a pleasure to have you hang out with us today. Yeah, I'm super excited. Thanks for messaging me. I just discovered your channel and then you messaged me and I was like, whoa, like that's sick, yeah. That's funny, small world. And we are excited to have you here for the first time. So I think this is going to be a blast. And with that, the floor is all yours, Ruby. All right, so hi, I'm Ruby. Politically, I'm more progressive and my general stance is that we should not stigmatize sex workers and that in general, that's resulted in a lot of unnecessary harm and not many productive outcomes. But in general, so online sex work refers to a diverse market in which sexual goods and services like webcam shows and pornography are procured in exchange for monetary compensation. Pornography itself is loosely defined as the depiction of erotic behavior in various media formats produced with the intent of sexually arousing the viewer. Archeologists have found pornographic material dating as far back as 7,000 BC and in the 1890s, the first pornographic films were recorded. Since then, sex and porn have been stigmatized to varying degrees across cultures. It's most extreme forms of stigmatization of perceived sexual deviance has been punishable by death and more modern secular countries, sex workers lack basic legal protections and are subject to violence. Online sex workers specifically face harassment, doxing and death threats. To stigmatize a sex worker is to authorize them, labeling them as deviant and immoral. They're either a victim of circumstances or a victim of their own stupidity, unable to make decisions regarding their own body. Much of this judgment is directed at women in particular and is deeply intertwined with misogyny and a general contempt for women's sexual agency. And with each new technological medium that porn exists on comes with a new backlash driven by people who may have begrudgingly accepted the previous status quo, but are certain that this time this new frontier of porn is the end of civilization as we know it and everything's gonna fall apart. These cyclic backlashes in efforts to stigmatize sex workers accomplished literally nothing aside from harming the most vulnerable members of society. Over the last 20 years, we've seen the rise of online porn and new kinds of sex work like webcam modeling and subscription-based sites like OnlyVans, where models make custom content and can interact with fans directly. For the first time in history, sex workers are thriving without pimps or exploitative porn studios. They work for themselves. They have full control over their content. They can block unruly clients at the click of a button all from the safety of their own home. And for escorts, the internet has been a game changer, enabling them to earn higher wages and more importantly, giving them the ability to vet clients and set rates and boundaries prior to meeting. The difference between walking the streets and using sites like Backpage to set up appointments is monumental. Despite gains and acceptance, I've noticed the perfect storm of societal issues that have created a generation of young people who are isolated, angry and looking for someone to blame, which has reignited a lot of anti-porn sentiments. They are emboldened by anonymity and engage in targeted harassment and doxing campaigns against sex workers. The level of anchor and obsession coming from this new demographic is very concerning for me. Not just because it harms sex workers but also because it demonstrates the severity of our country's mental health crisis. These young people are influenced by increasingly radical public figures who say, yes, we should stigmatize sex workers. We need to shame them out of existence and then all will be well in the world. But what's really happening here is just a modern post-hoc rationalization to justify visceral emotional response of disgust at perceived promiscuity in women which is ignited by an evolved instinct to fear paternity fraud and sexual competition. What differentiates humans from other animals though is our ability to reason and not be at the mercy of instincts that no longer serve us in our modern world which is vastly different than the one we evolved in. Sex is a natural pleasurable bodily function and as long as it's consensual between adults it should be not stigmatized and it's no one's business except those parties involved. Thanks so much. We will kick it over to SJ for her opening as well. So thank you very much. And SJ, the floor is all yours. Thank you. I wanna say thank you for having me on here and I also wanna say thank you to Ruby. I think this is a very relevant topic and it's something that obviously is permeating our society. I agree with her on a lot of the things that she mentioned. For example, I also feel that the girls and the women who are in these online e-cams I feel that they are victims in a lot of different ways but I feel it very badly for girls and women who choose to expose themselves on camera to demanding men and boys of all ages. They've given up on using their minds for advancement in this life in favor of acting as anonymous bodies who pretend to enjoy what they're doing to themselves. I've heard stories of the way those paying them forced them to do more and more demeaning acts which I won't name which are often painful physically and mentally. This is not about female empowerment it's about male domination over women. Females need an escape from this type of life and far too many have chosen suicide as that escape. Here's a, I've got a few stories here now. Catlyn Carter is one of them. A New York Post article about her said, but the conditions were deplorable. Management chastised Carter for not accepting all viewer requests, including ones for vomiting and urination and she soon developed an eating disorder, began binge drinking and felt generally isolated and exhausted. Caming was taking all of my emotional and physical energy and eventually put a strain on all of my relationships. She says, adding that it was far from a pleasant way to make a quick cash, despite a small elite raking it in. There is not a superior form of sex work and I feel like that's important to note. She left after two months and went to another studio which took a 70% cut of her earnings before quitting entirely. Many porn stars have died tragically between the years 2016 and 2018. Of overdose, we have Natasha Vega, Bella Blaze, Casey Chase, Amber Rain, Roxy Nicole, Yuri Love, Olivia Lua, Nikki Kyle and Violet Rain. Of suicide, we have August Aims, Natasha Blue, Angie White and January Seraph. And you can reference this also in places like The New York Post. August Aims was 23 when she died on December 5th of 2017. She had appeared in around 270 sex scenes. She was also, according to old interviews, a military brat, a dork who loved to shop at Target and a victim of family child sex abuse who wound up in a group home. Her husband was much older, as is the case with many couples in the industry. The dynamic often leads to controlling dysfunctional relationships which is how many interviewees describe Morris and August. And then there were August professional relationships. One key player who avoids much questioning is actor, Marcus Dupri, who filmed an aggressive scene with Aims months before her death. Her brother believes this triggered traumatic childhood memories and sent her spiraling. The porn actress, known professionally as August Aims, had been caught up in a firestorm of a different kind. After tweeting that she would not work with a crossover co-store who had filmed gay scenes, the wrath of the porn industry and Twitter at large descended upon her. The day after being cyber bullied, she committed suicide. And I collected some tweets. You can actually go to her site and collect tweets and there's a lot of things. She says, not homophobic. Most girls don't shoot with guys who have shot gay porn for safety. That's just how it is with me. I'm not putting my body at risk. I don't know what they do in their private lives. Shaila Stiles is another one. She's an adult Hall of Famer who saw the work dry up as she got older. Stiles moved to the so-called porn valley in California after high school to become an adult film star. She appeared in more than 400 films, including perverted point of view before calling it quits in 2016 and going home. She passed away on November 9th at age 31. Her family would not reveal the specifics. Fellow adult film star, Elana Evans, called Stiles a tragic film goddess, like Marilyn Monroe. She tweeted, at a loss for words, so sad that my own friend Ms. Shaila Stiles has left us. You are one of the most beautiful women I've ever known. Odette Delacroix is another one. She revealed that bullying, both online and off, is a huge issue in the industry and may have contributed to four deaths. The thing that made these girls, and also killed them, I believe, was social media. It's so easy to harass someone online. There isn't a day in my career I haven't had abuse from someone either online or in person. When my local high school found out about my career, I was stripped of all my awards. They literally took my name off the wall. Adult performers get smacked around emotionally. They get it from every angle, even within the industry. Okay, so that's a key note. It's this idea of destigmatization. I'm talking about a lot of times the harassment comes from people even in the industry, as you saw with the case with August Aims. Odette Delacroix revealed that many porn actresses are also under unbearable pressure to look as young as possible to fill a growing demand for tween and barely legal porn. She said she received the most bookings of her 10-year career when she lost a lot of weight and looked like a little girl. She said, when I started in porn, the fad was for busty, curvy, not a little girl, a woman, she said. Then around 2010, the obsession became about finding a low-lita performer. She said, when I got a contraceptive IUD fitted, I lost a lot of weight over an eight-month period and I got down to 70 pounds. I got more work than I ever did in my life. In fact, I earned so much money, I bought a house for my family and I bought myself a fancy car. And that's because I was so skinny and looked like a little girl. No one asked if I was okay. I thought I looked like a cancer patient, but that was the trend, the look. That's what they wanted. What do these studies say? Well, the studies say pornography acceptance and use is related to emerging adults, risky sexual attitudes and behaviors, substance abuse patterns, and non-marital co-hapitation rules. And that's from Carol and colleagues in 2008. TWAG in 2009 and colleagues said, more than half of men using porn say their porn use has caused them problems in life with the majority experiencing psychological and behavioral repercussions. And then Benic at L in 2002 said, compulsive and at-risk cyber sex users experience guilt, depression, and anxiety. So in summary, I would say that if we just look at some of this anecdotal evidence and also what the studies say in larger studies with quantitative and qualitative information, we find that pornography is very dangerous. This idea of doing it online is also a problem because it has permanent repercussions. You can't get rid of what you have posted online. So eventually, if you go back into the regular world and you start working in a regular job, there's always this threat that your online presence is gonna come back and haunt you. So with that, I will close and start the discussion. You got it. We'll jump right into that open discussion. So thank you very much. Both of you for being here, the floor is all yours. All right, so I would say if you have an issue with all those things you just described, you should be against stigmatization because that's one of the direct things that's contributing to this hostility because once someone views a sex worker as immoral, then it's easier to dehumanize them and people use that as an excuse. Like a lot of the people harassing models now, they do it because they perceive them as somehow being subhuman because of what they do. But in reality, it's sex. It's a bodily function that's pleasurable. The only meaning is what you ascribe to it. And there are cases of abuse in the porn industry. And a lot of that is because porn stars are alienated and stigmatized. So they're disconnected from their social support groups and then they're massively shamed by society and made to feel as though they are some disgusting creature who should die. So that's why you do see a lot of these issues. But so I'm with you. Those are all very bad, but you should be against stigmatization then because I feel like that's really the leading contributor to all of those things. One thing I want to say is, S.J., I'll give you a chance to respond, but I do think that I'm having trouble balancing out the audio. Sometimes mics kind of go their own way. I think that, S.J., if you're able to turn your volume up just a bit on your side and then Ruby, if you're able to turn yours down just a bit, we should probably be able to kind of converge right there. Okay, I can just, if I move this away for me, is this? I'll move mine closer, is that better? That is better. And S.J., can you speak up one more time? Is this, does this sound good? That's better. And then Ruby, I'd say if you're even just slightly lower. Is this better? I just moved it like a little further away from me. I think you should. That's perfect right there. Thanks so much. Okay, S.J., thanks for part of my interruption. No, no, no. Now Ruby, I wanted to say something. I completely agree with the fact that I would not treat porn workers as less than human. I think that's disgusting when people do that. And I think that does contribute to the problems that we're seeing. My issue with this idea of trying to open up the doors and say let's just be very accepting of this whole thing is that it'll probably prompt more women to go into it. And I think it's a very dangerous industry for women to go into. And I say women because that's, those are the people who are being abused here typically. It's not usually men. It's usually women who are in this industry and they're battered and beaten up and they're used and abused. And they're chewed in and chopped out. I mean, that's the thing. They go into the industry when they're relatively young in a lot of cases and they're mistreated in many cases, as I mentioned there. And that does leave them to depression and suicide. And so I feel that I'd like to encourage women to go off and do other things using their minds rather than their bodies because I think that everyone has something special about them that they can do. And you don't need to use your body to try to make the living in society. You can do perfectly fine without that. And I mean, use your body in a different way, maybe dancing or something like that, but not in sex work. I just feel that that's, I think there's women are better than that. I'd like to see them go off and get college degrees and get great jobs and do really well that way. Well, the great thing about modern sex work and how it manifests online is a lot of those issues that were rampant in the past with exploitation, women being pressured to do things they wouldn't normally do. A lot of those problems are, things are drastically changing with sites like OnlyFans where a model has complete control of her content. And now people are tired of just seeing aggressive, just like to the point pornography, they like getting to know the model, they like interacting with them. That's where the real money is with porn now. And that's why you see more people going into the industry because they feel safer. And, but the thing is I really don't see a world where every girl is gonna be like fuck me doctor, fuck science, I just wanted to do porn. I think it's morally neutral and we should encourage women to pursue stable careers in general. To me, I view it as the same thing as being like a model. If I had a kid who wanted to be a model, I would be like, maybe if you think about it and have a backup plan and a way out and have all of those things sorted out. And I'd want them to aspire to a more stable career. But yeah, I just don't see how it's worse than modeling or something like that. And I think modeling is great. I would prefer that women go into that role. I think that's perfect and go into beauty contest. I mean, a lot of these women are incredibly beautiful. The ones that I just mentioned that who had committed suicide who had died in really tragic ways, I have pictures of them. They're beautiful women, absolutely beautiful. I just have headshots. I don't have, obviously I don't get those kind of pictures but I have these are beautiful women and they tragically even just a couple of years ago took their lives because of being harassed inside the industry, not outside the industry. So it's not even about the public harassing. And although I agree with you, I don't want the public to harass them. I don't want the public to harass anybody. I don't think anybody should be stigmatized because they're human and they're making these choices. I think that the choices themselves though, they're hurting themselves and they're hurting even the men who are patronizing them. And I just mentioned some studies where it's shown that the men are having problems too. And I think that it's, I just think people are better than that. I'd like them to use themselves, use their minds. And just like you said, the other thing is it's a really short term kind of career because once you start looking a little bit older, everybody starts going for the 18 year old again. And so that's another challenge with that career. Well, you'd be surprised now, with the advent of amateur pornography. It's like a lot of people who do porn, they're not the typical porn star. It's changed a lot, even just in the past 10 years. And now you're seeing these ideas what we had of this one. There's definitely a prevailing, there is an issue in porn with a certain type of look and constantly wanting to push things to be more and more taboo. So that's why you see the teen market, which is definitely the way it manifests and operates is definitely problematic. But you also see one of the most searched categories on porn sites is MILF. People love that. So it's not, I feel like online sex work in pornography, it's actually expanded this narrow idea. So it's not like how maybe it was in the past where you could only be a porn star if you looked like 18 and had big boobs and like bleach tear. And in regards to the woman who killed herself for not doing the gay sexy, and I feel like that's more representative of the whole like cancel culture thing in general. People perceived it to be homophobic, they dogpiled her and shamed her. And people in the industry also engage in that, but I don't think that's from what I've seen of like sex workers. I have a lot of people in it, in my friend group or in the industry, they've always been extremely supportive of one another. They use these jobs to pay for school. They have a plan going into it. And if they want to stay in the industry, they go in and they model and then they work their way up towards directing or opening a company or a website, selling merchandise. There's just so many different avenues that you could take it. And I just don't see anything intrinsically degrading about a woman having sex for whatever reason that she may want to. Not all sex is like a holy match money like meeting of two people in love. Sometimes people have sex and they don't feel like it. Sometimes people have sex to appease their partner and sometimes people have sex for money. Explicitly or not explicitly, you know? So yeah, I just don't see, as long as it's consenting adults, I just, I can't wrap my head around why people are so against that. Well, another problem is the difficulty in regulation of the industry. And so a big challenge that I also see out there is the fact that I've got a 15 year old and a 14 year old, two sons who could easily go online and we try to watch whatever they're looking at and make sure that they don't go into bad sites but the ease is disgusting of finding these kind of places. And they've got cell phones, they've got computers, they've got laptops, they have all this stuff and they can, they haven't found it. I can say that, which I'm pretty thankful about but I can say that they could because it's out there. It's so easy to find for anybody. They hear like you just mentioned a couple of names of a site. There's porn hub that people talk about on Twitter all the time. And it's just these, they don't screen to make sure that you don't have a 14 year old watching this or a 10 year old becoming addicted. And I have a, that's the challenge that I see as a mother. That's something that I, why I would like to see more regulation although I know because it's a global internet that there's really very little that you can do. Yeah, well, unfortunately right now, like my generation, the younger generation were kind of like the test subjects of the internet growing up with the internet, growing up where I could at the click of a button look up someone's head getting chopped off or whatever, messed up stuff like that. So those are definitely issues especially with developing minds. We don't know about that. But with porn consumption, I don't see that as being like the top issue so far as the internet's negative impact. When people talk about porn addiction, they sometimes conflate like watching porn with being addicted to it, being addicted to anything. It's bad. I'm someone who's an addict and you can be addicted to a substance. Right now I'm objectively addicted to YouTube. I just am, but I would never want to stigmatize like a content creator because I happen to be unable to regulate my watching YouTube. Yeah. Yeah, well, that's the thing I think that, I mean, I think that it's just one of those industries that I think I would like to figure out a way to diminish it if possible. I mean, in the old days, in my generation, I'm going back a long time, but in the old days, if people wanted to access porn, they had to figure out how to buy the porn. It was difficult to go get those magazines and things like that or there was a use of prostitutes and this other sort of thing. There wasn't this prevalence all over the internet that anybody and their brother can go grab or sister or whoever else is using it. And I think that there is a serious addiction which is porn addiction. And there are some people who spend their days just wasting time watching porn. And so that's just like you said YouTube or whatever it is, we all have these, everybody. I mean, I have to say I'm addicted to social media. I love getting on, not YouTube as much, but I love Twitter. I just absolutely love it. And so I just think that if there's a way to cut the ones that are dangerous down and this idea that with porn, a woman is opening her whole body up to people, to strangers. And it could end up being that some people start stalking her and start trying to follow her around and find out her real identification. And I feel like that's setting herself up for something really scary possibly. Well, I feel like that risk, whether or not someone is showing a specific body part or not, there's that risk of any person being online that someone will fixate on you and become obsessed. And like to me, it's just pretty arbitrary. Like, you could be a model or influencer on Instagram and do everything but show the like one square inch circle that is your nipple, you know? And people are like, oh, you know, that's a whole different animal. But it's really, it's really not, you know? But so those risks, regardless of, you know, if you're making adult content or normal content, if you're online, those risks definitely exist. And it's something definitely that people should be concerned about. The thing is I just don't, yeah, I just don't understand how sex itself, because there's always this idea like people talk about sex work like it's selling your body. Like having a video or image of you is selling you instead of it being like a performance, you know? I just don't, yeah, I don't fully understand the logic with that. Well, that's one of the reasons why I was reading some of those cases where the women said that the people they were working for and a lot of cases people are, they have their sort of pimps basically on these online sites. In fact, I found one that was interviewed by Stefan Malinu who nobody likes and he got kicked off Twitter. But I found that he interviewed this pimp guy who basically employs a bunch of people in his big mansion. And he takes a certain cut of their money but also when these Johns ask for them to do these pretty grotesque things and that they keep getting more and more and more demeaning. And because the money's there, people will say, okay, yeah, sure, I'll do this, I'll do that. Next thing you know, they're, I mean, they've completely humiliated themselves. And so I feel like it's just, and some women are doing drugs while they're doing this stuff to be able to act as if they're having a good time when they're really not having a good time. And so I feel like, and that was what I quoted some people who said that. So I'm not just making that up. So I'm just trying to say that I feel like these women have other opportunities, especially some of these just really beautiful women that can use their physical presence by modeling, as you mentioned, or doing something that they don't, they won't have to worry about being embarrassed when their kids one day discover it down the road if they have kids. Well, so the thing is you bring up some extreme like examples of like, you know, like, there's a very dark aspect to what people what the consumers want in a certain market of the porn industry. So I can say, oh, it's problematic because when people are creating demand, there's going to be someone who'll do that for a price. And, you know, that's definitely problematic, but, you know, that's why we have smut laws to some degree to kind of draw that line between pornography and something that's just straight up like actual abuse. But in my experience on webcam sites, the models are, they just use it like how a person uses YouTube, you know, like it's just a platform, the model has complete control over what she's doing. Customers may come in and be like, can you do this? You know, and it's up to her. If she's financially coerced and that, you know, is wrong. Women should have more opportunities and not, you know, have this be the sole thing. Their only way of like making a decent living. But yeah, just any sites that I'm familiar with, they all are just very strict about, you know, you can't even type the word like on only fans. You can't write the word choke. You can't write the word pee. You can't, all of that stuff is, you know, it's instantly just banned, you know, and there's always people who find ways around it, but they try to, you know, keep up with it. It's like any website enforcing their TOS, there's, you know, it's a constant whack and wall. But yeah, I don't see those extreme, like more extreme examples as being representative of the industry and especially of the modern sex worker who is definitely in a much more empowered position than at any point, like throughout history. That's why I have taken up talking about this because it concerns me when people want to stigmatize online sex workers, because that pushes them back out, you know, on to the street, you know, and in more unsafe environments, I myself, I was a stripper and in my experience, I worked at a very shitty club with very shitty people. And I experienced firsthand how exploitative the situations can be. So it's a whole different animal being in-person and trying to set boundaries versus being online, being in control, being able to just block anyone. So for me, it's a great advancement. Even if you don't like porn from like a harm reduction standpoint, I just feel like it's been a net benefit, yeah. Well, one of the things about strip clubs is mostly they're regulated. So at least, you know, the person going in there in most states is gonna be at least 21 years or older. But the big challenge with the online work is you have the vast majority of people probably are younger than 21 who are watching it. And so that to me is a big problem. When you have young kids getting online and becoming addicted to it, in a way that they would never ever experience in before because unless they found their dad's Playboy magazines or something like that, they're not gonna have that same experience of seeing a real person doing stuff, real acting right in front of them. And so that's that, I don't know, how do you address that? How do you, what do you do about it? I don't know. That is the question. I mean, right now they have it. So you do have to say, yes, I am 18 and then you go in but people are generally able to bypass that. You know, I don't, in general, like from what I've seen of like data and pornography, like it's probably not great to have kids watching pornography like in general, but if a kid has internet access without some type of restrictions on it, naturally they're gonna be curious, you know? Even I remember when I was like 11, the first time I got in a computer alone, I was like AOL, you know, I instantly was just like wanted to look up like some fucked up shit. That's just like how kids are naturally curious, but it does become an issue if they have complete like unlimited access and that can affect, you know, their brain when it's in like a malleable state. But yeah, so first I really, I wouldn't know how to keep kids from watching except having some type of parental restrictions on like, on the internet. But yeah, but I still, if a, you know, if an 18 year old like teenage boys are gonna like masturbate regardless, I think done in moderation, it's not horrible for them at all. I think it can actually be perfectly healthy behavior. So yeah. And as a woman knowing that you're putting something out there that you could have a 10 year old watching and doing that, isn't that kind of, I mean, how do you, that's kind of gross as yeah, wouldn't it kind of gross you out that you got a fifth grader here doing this? Yes, yeah. I mean, that's, you know, with anything on the internet, if you put it out there, there's no way of really regulating who can see it unfortunately. Unless you're on sites, you know, like only fans where you do have to be like, you at least have to have money to buy the sites. That's one barrier to prevent like kids from doing it. But I feel like that isn't on, you know, the sex workers, not their responsibility because there's always going to be, you know, unless you want to be like, all right, we should shame anyone who makes content that's not appropriate for children because children could watch it, you know? So it doesn't make sense to me why target sex workers when that's just one of many adult themed things that people do online, you know? Yeah. Well, I think here's the deal. So I would say that number one, I wouldn't want, you and I can agree that number one, we don't want people to be mistreated. And we definitely don't want, I mean, I have to say, when James picked this thing, it was, I thought the title was gonna be accepting of sex work and not destigmatize so much because I don't want to mistreat people and I don't want to put them in a box and label them and do something that would be really unfair. And I honestly feel sorry for some of the people doing this kind of stuff because I feel like they're coerced into it or they feel like they have no other way to make money. And there's a lot of money in it. And so a lot of, for some women, not everybody can make a lot of money in that, for some women, as I've seen, the one who said in that quote that I said with the house and the car and all that stuff she bought, obviously some women can make pretty good money. The challenge is that we both face and the reason why I don't wanna just open the doors and say, hey, yeah, let's let it all out is because you have little kids accessing the stuff which I have a big problem with. Number two, you also have kind of freaky people who are able to get on and check this kind of stuff out. You've got people who are stalker types who will go after these women and possibly hurt them. And there are the types who also are just kind of cruel and they get into these sites and they say, they want the choking or they want the woman to have double penetration or something completely, that's gonna dehumanize the woman or at least the woman. I mean, they're just doing these things that I feel like they put the women into a position that could be very uncomfortable and then she might feel very uncomfortable about having that in her past in years to come when she does go and graduate college and uses that money for tuition and gets out of college, gets a great job and suddenly this video comes up from some person who's after her in some way. And so that sort of thing to me is a big concern. And so I would just try not to open the doors and make this so easily accessible for people. Yeah, I mean, so far it's like the like it is, it's scary and this is definitely a social experiment. So far as the permanence of the internet freaks me out, it makes me question even just doing YouTube videos because it is, it's like it's there forever. And as a society, we have no idea how to cope with that. So people will find any a tweet that you said something stupid years ago and that could ruin your life. So the same applies for pornographic material, but people don't necessarily have to view that as being immoral. Like I feel like you could get in more trouble for having like a racist tweet and say a video of you consensually, having sex. I don't see, so that's why in general, I do think we should be moving towards a future where if there's a sex tape of you, it's simply not a big deal. It's not gonna affect your ability to get other jobs. I think that's changeable, but I don't think that we're gonna be able to change the fact that online porn exists and that people are gonna do it. I think we can change how we perceive it. That's an interesting, actually what you just said is really interesting. If you had to look out 50 years, what would your ideal situation be for the world as far as porn? My ideal situation, I would like to see it be less stigmatized so that sex workers have just as many like legal rights and protections as any other worker and better working conditions. And where as a society, we view porn differently. So there's not this element of disdain and animosity towards models that harms their mental health. And also ideally we would find some way to like regulate kids accessing porn. There's a multitude of things that could be like improved about the industry. But in like an ideal world, I think porn can be a very enjoyable benign thing just like watching a YouTube video or watching a scary movie. To me, it's just a type of entertainment. There's entertainment where you're scared. There's entertainment where you're thrilled. There's entertainment where you said and then there's entertainment that is sexual. So it's, yeah, to me it's just another form of entertainment. But do you feel like it kind of degrades women in a way? In general, not about yourself or your friends but just in general women by doing this kind of thing, do you feel like it's sort of a, like I would say it's not female domination, it's a male domination thing because the males are running the show in a lot of these cases as their pimps. I mean, that's definitely, there has definitely been, like especially when more porn studios were in charge, there was less amateur, less sites like Onlyfans where models made their own content. There's definitely been a specific kind of porn that has a specific kind of situation that for whatever reason people like and that's where the woman is submissive and the guy is dominant and it's just a very mechanical situation. But, yeah, I feel like we're moving away from that. And also in general, I do not think it's intrinsically degrading to be a submissive woman or to be into kinky sex. You can look at it and be like, if you're someone who's not into BDSM, you'll look at someone getting choked to be like, whoa, that's fucked up, that person's getting choked. But if the person's enjoying it, which people do, they definitely do. People enjoy that in real life, they enjoy recording it and they enjoy consuming that. I don't see that as degrading, but I do think it's been an imbalance of only showing that one kind of porn that caters primarily to a male audience. But now there's more female porn viewers than ever. I'm pretty sure it's like 30% of porn surges on like Pornhub are bi women. So you're seeing more diversity in the types of porn and situations that women are in in the industry. One of the other challenges that I think is out there is, and this has to do with just a generational thing. So you mentioned before that you're in the generation that you've pretty much grown up with computers. So your generation either Y or Z, I don't know which one you are, but you're... I'm a millennial, I'm, yeah, I'm a millennial, but I still, I had the internet when I was like 11. So it's like I grew up with it, but not as much as say the new generation. Okay, okay, so you're, but you're in a pretty young generation and one of the challenges, and this is not related to the porn industry, but I'm just gonna say it's a challenge of this younger generation of the Y and the Z groups is the fact that they, because they've grown up with the internet so much and because they spend so much time just, I mean, I look at a college campus and I see students walking around campus on their phones the whole time. This is a completely different environment that it's ever been. And a lot of people are on social media and they've shown that the rates of suicide and depression have gone up in conjunction with the rates of social media usage. And so people who are, who haven't had the time to establish these relationships and develop these long-term relationships with people and they've been immediately thrown into this internet world and they haven't developed coping mechanisms for the kinds of beating up on other people that some people do. There's a lot of really beastly people out there and this is just plain social media, not even the porn thing. There are some really bad people out there and if you don't have coping mechanisms that you've built up over time, just in your life dealing with hardships and ups and downs and suddenly you're exposed to these people saying these stuff like what they said to Augusteans, she couldn't take it. She couldn't take it for a day of that kind of thing. And I see that as a big problem with just younger people with other people harassing them. I don't feel like the women who put themselves out there on this e-sex work have the coping mechanisms to deal with the kind of beating up that they're gonna get from both society because that's not gonna go away. There's definitely gonna be some people who are going to be abusive in society and that's wrong, that's completely wrong of them. And also inside the industry, there are people who are gonna be abusive and these poor women, in fact women are the ones who are having most of the problems on social media with respect to depression and that sort of thing. And the women without the coping mechanisms are gonna have a difficult time and that's why all those suicides I mentioned up front, a lot of that is because these women haven't had time to, you know, they haven't had the ups and the downs in life. So how do we get, I mean, just in general, I think that you and I could both say, we don't want people mistreating other people, we definitely don't like the idea of cyberbullying and all that kind of stuff. But I think that people don't realize sometimes even with the generational thing is the younger people haven't had the time to develop these long-term relationships with friends that help strengthen them and with family and with other people and even with the, because they're immediately put in front of a cell phone and every time you see a tweet, it's like, oh, the dopamine levels are going up, they're going up, oh, it's exciting. Someone just tweeted at me, you know? And so that it's like a walking addiction in itself. Oh yeah, absolutely. This is something like, you know, I take a step back and you become used to how things are with the internet but I think people forget it just changed everything. It is such a huge, big change in the way that people interact and we're, you know, this is just the start of, you know, seeing what kind of issues are going to arise from that. We have major internet addiction. We have, you know, anyone who is predisposed to like social anxiety, like for me, I'm someone who tends to like isolate myself and the internet makes that great, you know? Like I can have just enough connection and entertainment to keep me, you know, complacent and existing alone. And I think that's why you're seeing like like a downfall in the amount of friends that people have and even like with romantic relationships. And yeah, I think that's like a combination of technology and also automation, you know, where our jobs, you know, and also like loss of religion and all of those things. That's just kind of created a perfect storm of, you know, it's just a very like unprecedented time to like be alive. It's yeah. No, I totally agree with you. And I think it's, I agree with you, a perfect storm. I mean, I can go back to 2007 and I remember when Facebook, when I first got onto Facebook and I thought, oh, this is kind of weird, but I remember getting mad at myself for spending one time I spent like three hours on Facebook and I got really mad at myself and I've barely been on there since, but for some reason I find Twitter to be much more interesting for whatever reason. But the friendships that you develop in these kind of sites aren't those really deep friendships that you do develop in real life. And so the big problem is, is you have a lot of shallow relationships online. And when you really need the going gets tough, where do these people go? Are they around to help you when you're going through struggling times? And that's just something that I see and I worry about people going into this sex business basically or the ECAM stuff because I fear that something, I mean, I just fear that they don't have those mechanisms built up at all. Yeah, I mean, that's definitely an aspect of it. You know, there is a lot of hostility and animosity towards sex workers online. And, you know, I have a tiny YouTube channel but when I got my first taste of like strangers, you know, sizing you up and like making all these inferences about you and you're just like, it's so weird. It's like a super, super weird thing. And people act so supathic online, they really do. So yeah, that's definitely an issue that sex workers face. I just, I don't see us being unique to the industry. And I think it's something that we can alleviate some of that hostility by changing our general attitudes. Cause I just see us like a big issue to view with someone else's sexual behavior as somehow immoral. I just feel like there hasn't been a good path to go down throughout societies. It seems like we should value bodily autonomy and freedom and, you know, and not shame people for pursuing sexual desires. A lot of these conversations kind of operate under this idea that, you know, women hate this. They hate like masturbating and doing sex stuff. But then if a guy is a webcam boy, which there's plenty of, you know, they, they're like, oh, that's a dream job. I'm like, yeah, he gets paid to jerk off. But it's, it's like, sure. Like guys have like a, you know, a higher sex drive on average, but women also have a sex drive and enjoy doing these things. There's a lot of exhibitionists. It can be exciting. It can be a way to explore different fantasies. I have friends who, like there's all these different niche markets for you if you decide to be an online sex worker now, where like, for example, being a femdom is like, you know, very untrendy right now. And I have a lot of friends who never realized they had that kind of dominant side to them and they can find it really cathartic to explore that in this environment. And also in regards to like, you know, connection, it could be a double-edged sword because on one hand, any connection you have online isn't gonna be as fulfilling as like a real-life friendship and that like, you know, face-to-face, you know, just having like a real person. It's not a substitute. But I do think it can actually be a lifeline for people who, for whatever reason, don't have access to people in their life at all. It just having someone to talk to online, you know, it can make a huge difference. And yeah, and sometimes people are, they're more open online about stuff than they would be normally. So I think there's, I think it's a mixed bad. I don't think it's all bad, you know. Yeah, no, I can, I think that the other thing that I would have to say is just to add in here is this idea of if you do do that kind of stuff and then one day you go and you get married and you have that traditional family and that sort of thing, there could be a challenge with the husband who finds out about that kind of work if the person didn't know and it suddenly comes out. And there could also be a challenge of trying to have, are you gonna be able to get married and have that traditional relationship going on later? Or is it gonna be the kinds of people who've maybe come into that where they feel like sex is just sort of a transactional thing. And it's not something that's about a man and a woman in love and having babies and doing that sort of a thing. If it seems so transactional then what's, then will there also be a move to something like polyamorous relationships where basically everyone's sort of open and saying let's have an open marriage where men and women can run around with the neighbors and do all this other kind of stuff. Cause I feel like that could also be breaking down society in ways that could go really badly for us. Yeah, I hear you. I'm generally my stance is I do think that like super strict monogamy isn't the most natural. I feel like so many relationships that are good healthy relationships end because a partner had a one night stands. And for me, I don't have the same emphasis on monogamy. I think polyamorous relationships are fine. I don't see them as like a threat to monogamous relationships in general. Cause I feel like it's, people are hardwired with certain like sexual preferences. So I kind of, I don't see all of a sudden everyone being like, all right, fuck monogamy cause a polyamorous relationship has its own challenges. But people I know who are in the sex industry, it's for them, it's like sex can operate on a spectrum. So just because sometimes sex is transactional doesn't mean that they can't have extremely like meaningful sexual experiences with their significant other have healthy relationships. It's just, you know, it's kind of like you can eat candy and well, this is a stupid analogy, but it's like you can enjoy candy and like shitty fast food, but you can also enjoy like a really healthy good meal. You know, it's not, it doesn't have to be like one or the other and I think, yeah. Do you know, do you know any people who are married and who have those relationships who are in longterm? Because I know, I have anecdotal, you know, friends, people I've known from the other coast of Florida when I was living down there, I've never known anybody to be able to survive that kind of relationship longterm in a marriage. It always, and I can name a very famous, a bunch of very famous atheists right now who have gone through divorces because of this kind of relationship. And so that's, you know, two really famous ones that basically had that same open sort of deal. And so I just, I look at that and I feel like that that's a, I mean, that's hurtful for everybody involved in those sorts of things. In my experience, I feel like there's, the polyamory isn't contributing to like the decline of marriage. I think that's just been like a cultural shift of people not seeing the utility in marriage, which marriage and like monogamy in general, I can see the value in those things. And they've been valuable in humans advancement, child rearing, especially prior to the invention of birth control, it would just be unfeasible to like, you know, risk getting pregnant every time you hooked up with someone else. So, but you're seeing, you know, now that we have different technology where new circumstances are standards of sexual behavior are changing and it's gonna be like trial and error. But I feel like in my experience, I've seen polyamorous relationships that are much more healthy and more communicative than monogamous ones because part of being in a polyamorous relationship is it's all about communication. It's not just like a free-for-all. You might have like your main partner and then maybe once a month or a lot to go on a date with someone else, but you're not allowed to do this. There's like all these kind of rules around it so that each partner has a, you know, is satisfied in how the relationship is operating. Yeah. Yes, I see, I haven't seen, like I've said, if my husband ever did that or if I did that to him, I would expect he divorced me because I feel like that would be detrimental to the relationship. It wouldn't work because there's a loss of trust now. But on the other side is I look at, I think we should idealize the idea of a family and the idea of two people coming together and staying together for many years. And I feel like we can see, I look at my parents, they've been together over 50 years. Right now, my mom has Louie's body dementia, which is really terrible because now she can't put a full sentence together anymore. And it's, yeah, it's been pretty hard. But she has my dad to take care of her and he's been with her through ups and downs through 50 years and over 50 years. And I feel like that's just, that's the kind of thing that I think that this couple can grow so strong that I feel like the society moving towards sex being transactional and polyamorous relationships and those sorts of things. I think that what's truly beautiful in life is just getting people together and just love. And so love for each other and not for going around loving other people. And so that's just my view on that. Yeah, I mean, the way I see it is, our social norms are changing. And sometimes when social norms change, it can kind of feel like a backlash against more traditional values. In the same way that when women entered the workforce, all of a sudden it kind of made stay at home moms and housewives feel like, oh, they're against me. They don't want people like me to exist. When in reality, I think they can all coexist happily. And I think there's value to each way. There's definitely a huge value to having a very long-term relationship. And I'm sure a lot of people have lost sight of that. But I also know people who have been, the way their non-monogamous relationship operates is that they are married, they have a kid, they are completely dedicated to each other. And then once in a blue moon, they'll go on a date with someone else, because I feel like that's the most in line with like human nature and our desires and the stuff. Yeah, do you think we should be in line with human nature and our desires? So we should just act upon our desires. Because I mean, right now I could desire a whole big thing of ice cream. And it's like, you know what I mean? Like we can't, we can't have to restrain ourselves on some things, I would say. Yeah, I mean, yeah, totally. I don't think we should act on like any desire. It's a matter of, like there's restrictions on human behavior that makes sense, you know? And then there's some that over time we realized don't really serve us and they don't really serve a purpose, you know? Like at one point it was considered completely immoral and you could go to jail for being gay and people would say like, oh, you shouldn't give in to that desire. You know, you should control that, you don't have to be at the mercy of your desire. But then we realized that there's nothing actually, at least in my opinion, there's nothing harmful happening when a homosexual couple exists. So our norms change and we, you know, relax over certain things that don't serve us. But I don't think it should be like that for all. Our norms have definitely changed and society's changed and the past 20 years society's changed. And it's gonna be interesting even watching right now with the upcoming election. I mean, just people are so hostile against each other. And so not even what you said, we talk about we don't wanna see stigmatizing, I mean, neither of us wanna see people mistreated. And it's also another thing with looking at politics and two sides hate each other so much that there's just so much hostility out there that social media has really perpetuated, unfortunately, so. Gotcha, we can jump into the Q and A, wanna say thanks for your question, folks. Wanna remind you as well, I don't think I mentioned this up front, that we at modern day debate have invaded the podcast world. So this is in addition to the YouTube channel, the YouTube channel will keep going. However, let us know if you check your favorite podcast app and we're not on there, we will work to get on there. So with that, let's jump into these questions and a quick reminder as well that both Ruby and SJ are linked in the description, folks, if you'd like to hear more. Now, your first question, thanks. Let me just jump ahead. O'Flamio, thanks for your question, says, if e-sex work was destigmatized, they would be bullied less, SJ. Marriage is cringe, marriage is a bad deal for men. Oh boy, I disagree. But unfortunately, it sounds like a very young person writing who hasn't had the experience with seeing a good marriage. See, they said, I'm trying to understand the first, so there's two separate points. One, marriage allegedly being a bad deal and then e-sex work, if it were destigmatized, they would be bullied. Oh, I see what they're saying, yeah. Well, yeah, yeah, I definitely think that there would be some less bullying but we have to remember, as I pointed out before, a lot of the bullying's coming from inside. People just like with the August Aims, you guys, look up August Aims. She was beat up and bullied basically because she didn't want to have sex with a guy who was having sex with other men and she was worried about her health and she got completely bullied by a bunch of people who she decided to take her life the next day. Gotcha. And Michael Dresden, regular troll, says, if no porn though, what will lonely atheist men do? I don't know if that's a serious question, I'm pretty sure it's not. Lily R.O., thanks for your question, says, S.J., please define stigmatize. Just mistreating people, essentially. Casting them into a bowl and trying to make assumptions and stereotypes about them. Gotcha. And thanks so much for your question from, oh, we got that one, Tom's chair, that's right. Tom Chum's chair has joined us this afternoon, says sex crimes are at an all-time low. Any correlation? I mean, I think so, you know, when I was like doing some research, it's a fact that there's actually been a negative correlation between the increase of online pornography and sex crimes, but, you know, correlation isn't causation, so I don't want to like completely own that, but it is, it's an interesting observation that kind of flies in the face of people who think that people are watching, people have explicit sex, they're, you know, it's going to create, make them violent. It's like the people who thought video games were going to make everyone, you know, violent stuff. Gotcha. SJ, what do you think about the alleged, I think they're kind of suggesting that there might be some sort of cathartic, some sort of catharsis going on where people might be satisfied by the online sex work, and that's why maybe sex crimes are declining. Your thoughts, SJ? Yeah, no, I would say that it's the idea of if they're going online and they're watching sex online versus going out and hiring a prostitute and then getting mad at the prostitute and beating her up or committing some crime against the prostitute, I can see where that would go down, so that seems reasonable. Gotcha, and thanks for your question. This is from UK Marxism DLC Failed, says, can you ask the debaters to steelman the opposing view and ask them if they have any meta-analyses or meta-analysis studies that prove their own point? Well, I can steelman, there's definitely, exploitation exists in the porn universe, and I can understand why people are concerned that they can see, they don't necessarily think that these are bad people for doing porn, but they think that if it's normalized, that will become a legitimate path where all of a sudden it's just as normal as say, if you want to be a doctor in school, it'd be like, all right, would you like to be a doctor, a prostitute or this all of equal merits? I guess you might people are concerned from like a slippery slope kind of perspective. Yeah, that's my thought. Yeah, see, I know your view too. You say, you have friends, you have a history and involvement in this industry, and so you feel like it should be more open, you feel like people should be more open, people should be more accepting and shouldn't mistreat other people who are deciding to do that in the industry, and you feel like it's a safer way for some women to go rather than getting out on the streets or going into the bars like you mentioned, the strip bars or strip clubs. And so I say that's your view. As far as the meta-analytic study, I looked, I swear I looked for meta-analytic studies, couldn't find any, in fact, I could barely find any studies on this topic. I found three studies that I referenced earlier on some of the negative outcomes of being involved from both sides, both the female and the male is the buyer and the seller on that kind of thing, but I couldn't find a study that had taken them all together and given us effect sizes, so. Yeah, it's still such a new phenomenon that there's a lot of conflicting research, you know. Pardon my interruption, we didn't hear you for that first two or three seconds. I think that your connection might have abdinflowed. Oh, can you hear me now, is it okay? It is okay now, but I think that we missed, I don't know how much we missed, maybe only like two or three seconds, but. Oh, okay, I was just repeating what SJ said that it's hard to find like a solid meta-analysis and such a broad social issue that's so poorly researched and has very inconclusive results for the studies that have been done, and so that's my answer. Yeah, I was thinking about why I couldn't find those studies and I thought, well, it's obvious. How is a researcher, and you know I'm an academic, as a researcher, how would you find your subjects? You think, how am I gonna interview people and do quantitative surveys and that sort of thing and get some results? So it's just, we're just not seeing that kind of stuff. I did find a few studies, but I haven't found much. Gotcha, and as Modius, thanks for your question. Don't know if this one's sincere either, says, how do you view the supposed harmful effects that this e-work has on men, which is responsible for spawning the simp phenomenon? I hate this obsession with every time a man, at this point, the simp has gotten out of control. Anytime a man is remotely nice to me, they're just, everyone's just dog piling them, calling a simp. It's basically, I mean, it's this idea that women are treated better than they should be, and that people glorify pretty women, and it's like, yeah, it's a phenomenon, like people in our society value beauty, and that's kind of just like a natural phenomenon. Yeah, I don't, I don't know. The whole thing is, I didn't know what simp was until like a month ago, and then I learned, and it's, yeah, it seems like a shit show to me. Fascinating. So, would it be fair to say would be, for anybody with lack of clarity on simp, we don't have to spell out the actual acronym. So you don't just say what it means? We don't have to do that, but maybe we give, like, what would be a synonym for simp for those who have never heard the term before? Well, now let's use the synonym for like cock, beta male. You know, just like a guy who thinks- Beta! Got you. Yeah, exactly. It's like a guy who thinks that if he like bends over backwards to the will of a woman, like he'll, you know, be able to have sex with her, and like, you know, evil women are just like puppeteers, like, of their simps, and exploiting them. It's just like a really exaggerated thing. I don't know. Yeah. Lorraine Ababa. It's ridiculous. Do you know who that is? Anyway, she's a horrible woman. Is Lorraine Ababa the simp? Oh, it's not, I think you got it. Lorraine Ababa. There's female simps, too. Really? She was horrible. I've never heard of this idea. How does a female simp work? A female simp works in exactly the same way, where it's like, oh, there's a hot guy. I am going to be nice, and like, I'd lie to him and think that he's a much better person than he is, and I don't know. It doesn't manifest in the same financial transaction that, say, a simp for, like, a only-fans model would manifest, just because there isn't as much demand. Women tend to, you know, not have as much demand to pay for, you know, seeing dicks and whatnot. I thought you went simp like if they were all lesbian, but maybe not. That's right. You've had a talk with Jesse, with Jesse Lee Peterson. So, yes. We've met Jesse, he's a character, and thanks for your question. I can't, with Jesse, it's like, I hate the things he believes, but he's, there's just something I am so amused by him. I can't. You can say the worst thing in the world, and I'll just be like, I don't like. Yeah, that's true. Next, thank you, Michael, the Canadian. It's some kind of like superpower. He does. It is. It's true. And it's funny that everybody I meet, they deep down, I think they, even if they disagree with Jesse in the biggest way, they can't, you can still tell they like him. Like, there's something about him that they, at least part of them, they like. And so, Michael, the Canadian atheist, thank you for your question and said, protect vulnerable people and children. If we're talking about consenting adults, go for it. Just don't do any harm. Ashley, what are your thoughts to this challenge? I mean, he agrees. I agree. But the big, one of the big problems with this E sex work is the fact that kids can access it. Even if their parental controls are on kids, figure out ways to get around the controls, or they go over to their friends' houses and the friends might not have parents with control. So it's just really hard to get this away from kids. And that's what's harmful. Kids are too exposed to things that they should never even have to see at the age of eight years old. So. Gotcha. And I like giggling and looking at some of the responses that people have been saying when we were talking about simps. Everybody in the live chat, everybody has an opinion on simps. Next. Yeah. It's a thing. It's a big phenomena. So simps, would it be fair to say synonymous pretty much with white night? White night, but it's more, there's a little more misogyny attached to it. Like white night can actually, oh, actually, no, it's, yeah, yeah, it's comparable. I don't know. I mean, I'm still new to the terminology and the etymology behind the words. I don't, you know. A conceptual analysis of simp for those of you who love philosophy. Thank you. Let's see. And Oflamio, thanks for your other question. Ask, polyamory and transnational relations are biblical. So given that, do I remember it, polyamory would be like, you're just open to having multiple spouses? Yeah, I don't think polyamory is biblical. I do think polygamy is biblical. We certainly saw that in the Old Testament, but Jesus made it really clear in the New Testament that the marriage is supposed to be between a man and a woman, not 10 women and one man. It's one man and one woman. One of the reasons in the Old Testament why we did see this kind of stuff is because men oftentimes were going off to war and they would die and the women didn't have a way to take care of themselves. And so a lot of times the brother of the man would actually marry the woman so that she would have a way to be taken care of. And so that was something that happened in the Old Testament kind of rather frequently actually. Gotcha. And thanks for your question. This one comes in from Stuart Keating. Appreciate it. Stuart asks, says women use their bodies to become supermodels too. Shouldn't they just go to college and do better? I think this is a challenging USJ in... I think women should be supermodels if they can. In fact, I have a woman on my channel who's coming on next week who was Miss Texas before. She's beautiful. She's absolutely beautiful. And she's Miss Texas. And it's like, do it. If you've got that kind of a figure, that kind of a face, go out and use it that way. That's awesome. Gotcha. But I think they're challenging the USJ. I think they're saying it was all the way back to like the very beginning. I think you had said like better than being in ESACs, get a college degree, go on and you know, do that type of career. Something more academically or intellectually rigorous. I'm sure they're, to be honest, I'm not trying to underestimate. I think a lot of times people don't realize that with YouTube or only fans that they have intellectual components. There's a lot of learning involved in those things. So I'm not trying to say that ESACs work is inherently like something you don't use your brain for. But actually you're saying something where you would say you use your brain by a significantly larger proportion relative to your physical appearance in college. And so they're saying, well, hey, doesn't that principle also apply to supermodels? Shouldn't they go to college instead of being a supermodel? I think they should go to college in addition to being a supermodel. If they can make money supermodeling, why not do it? Very few people have that kind of beauty that they can go off and do that kind of thing and make some real money. So why not do both? And so use your brain in certain, I mean a lot of the supermodels that are out there are highly intelligent women. And so the one woman who's coming on my channel, when they do these beauty contests, they also look at the brains of the woman. They ask them a lot of challenging questions and they listen for what the people come up with. And it does take certain intelligence to come up with some pretty good answers. And so I just think that going back to what I was saying originally is I do think that we should try to use our minds as much as possible because that's all that's going to stick around. Not even too long. You might, by the time you turn, say 70, 80, it starts kind of declining. But we should try to at least capitalize on the 50 or 60 or 70 or 80 years that you have with a powerful mind to help you come up with pretty good ideas. And I would completely advocate college as you know. So. Gotcha. And thank you, Timothy Foster for your question. Said to SJ, got a lot of challenges for you, SJ. They're coming at you. It says, Ruby, feel free to give a rebuttal. What we usually do is whoever the challenge is for, we let them have the first word. We're okay with the other person having a rebuttal if they want to jump in. And then we just go back to the initial person being challenged because we want to give them the last word on the challenge. So Timothy Foster says, SJ, your opening speech did make it sound like the negative stigma is a root cause of every problem you mentioned. You also sound like you have a negative view of those women. So critique or a challenge to you, SJ. Yeah. No, my opening speech talked a lot about, I definitely said, yes, there is some stigmatization. Yes, there are some people who bully people. Yes, there are cyber bullies online. We're always going to have that. But my opening speech talked a lot about that a lot of this stuff is internal. A lot of the reasons why these people were committing suicide was because they were being mistreated on the inside by their people, the people, the pimps, or they're being mistreated by like the one girl with August. She was mistreated by other people who were fans of her who turned on her when she made a decision. So you just, you have a lot of people who are bullying on the inside. And so I feel like, and no, I don't look down on those people at all. I actually would rather they didn't do that because I feel like they can use their minds and their bodies in different ways. It would be more productive for society. Gotcha. And with that, thanks for your question from, this one comes in from the quarantine. Thanks to your, to Dr. Thomas, the only reason any of these suicides or for any of these suicides is the social stigma created from Puritan views that have leaked into our society. And they, I don't, I didn't see number two. Sorry about that quarantine. I must have missed that. But I guess that's- No, but that's not what I've found. What I mentioned before is the reason why these people are doing this is a lot of times because number one, they're chewed up and spit out in the industry. Once they get a little bit older and they don't look like they're barely legal and that sort of thing, people aren't paying money to watch them anymore. And so it can be very dehumanizing to them. And so a lot of the stuff that, the reason they're getting depressed and those sorts of things, a lot of times it's because how they're treated in the industry itself. And that's what I brought out with the book when I started this week today. Gotcha. And let's see here. Do we have any questions for Ruby? If anybody has a challenge for Ruby, let me know we will try- This is great. Usually every debate I have is like constant shitting on me, like for once people agree with me. But I'm open to any critique. On James' channel, I'm the one who gets that. Believe me, James, I've been reading the chat. I know what they're saying. Not when you go against us, James. Don't read the chat. I haven't looked at the chat ones. I'm not, you know. Brent and Langle. I see it. I see what they're writing. It's just, I used to it. Appreciate your question. Brent and Langle just fired this one in the old chat. I was just going to say, I was going to bring up Breton. I was going to say, Breton, I think, is polyamorous. You should ask him. Our old buddy, Breton, ask him about it. He says, sex work is work. The only problems with it are exploitation and coercion, both of which are made worse by stigma. Sunlight is the best disinfectant, says Breton. We'll give you a chance to respond. Yes, Jay. Yeah. No, I- I don't think that, I mean, sex work, yes, it is work. And it's hard work. And it's people actually doing something that they're going to possibly regret in the future. And so, and a lot of times it's people obeying the demands of some very crappy customers or really crappy pimps who are basically having them do some things that are really demoralizing, like urinating or throwing up. It's disgusting that customers would request that that happens. And other things that are, I'm not even going to go into, but those sorts of things can can hurt people. And so, that's just what I'm going to say. That's dehumanizing themselves. Gotcha. And let's see here. Let me see if I got one more in the list. And then we've got, so we have Daniel is Bitsky. This is for Ruby says, would you want your children to be quote unquote sex workers? Why or why not? So this is a question I get a lot actually because people can kind of expect that I would be like, you know, either like, no, like, no, I don't want that. Like, and then it's kind of like, well, then your argument doesn't make sense. Or it's like, yes, they want that. And it's like, oh, you want your child and for like, but you know, my answer was a, if I have kids, I would prefer not to think of them doing any kind of sets of a version to incest. I don't think any, you know, parent likes thinking about their child doing, you know, sex stuff. So far as being a sex worker, the way the industry is now is, there is a lot of exploitation. You know, I would like to pursue a stable career. And if they went into the industry out of their complete volition, you know, with informed consent, I would fully support them. I would never shame them for that. Yeah. I would fully support them in their decision, as long as they had a long-term plan. It's kind of like, if my kid was like, I would like to be a famous YouTuber. I would be like, maybe explore other options. But you know, if that's something you really want to get into, you know. Gosh. Yeah. That's fascinating. This isn't to take sides. I can't help but say this because I wonder it about myself, not me going on only fans, but YouTube. So I, right now, I have plans career-wise, but I also like, who knows what the future is? Lord willing, maybe become a YouTuber because it's just really fun. Yeah. And I'm wondering, I'm like, well, I know I want to finish my degree currently, but I, I'm also kind of like, I'm wondering, I'm like, well, I mean like, is YouTube stable? And I'm not trying to challenge your point. It's just something I've thought about. We should ask some of like, the longtime YouTubers that we have on here. Like Destiny's probably maybe the one of the more experienced. But with that, thanks for your question. Stuart Keating says, SJ, kids also have easy access to violent movies and video games. Should we stigmatize those industries too? Yeah, I'm not really a big fan of violent movies. If it's gratuitous violence, and it's something that doesn't serve any sort of purpose or lesson. So I would say to stigmatize that if you want to, sure. As far as video games, my kids love video games. And if I tried to take them away from them, they'd probably get really upset. So I just, I'm, I've actually heard that it does build connections inside the neural networks in your mind. So I'm actually okay with certain video games. Gotcha. And thanks for your question. This one came in from Azmedius. Hopefully I pronounced that right. Let me know if I didn't. It said, Simp, bit of my previous question kind of went off the rails. Wait, are you calling me a Simp? I don't know. They say to make it a bit more broad, do you think there are any negative effects on men? I don't know. Go ahead. Wait, so are there any negative effects on men? This is, they're referring back to their question about simps, being an alleged, allegedly a product of the e-sex work industry. They're saying, do you think there are any negative effects on men from the e-sex work industry? I mean, there can be. There are certainly models who, like in any business or, you know, career path, there are people who will exploit other people to get ahead. And there are models who do exploit men. They will mislead them into thinking that, you know, there's something more there and kind of exploit that, you know, primal desire for connection that men have. And you know, when they do that, that is definitely harmful. But I don't think it's intrinsic to, to the sex work industry. Gotcha. And we have some really interesting questions that have just flown in. One, Brent and Langle, thanks for your other question says, Ruby, should sex workers unionize to better protect themselves? And can they unionize online sex work? I mean, that would be great if they had more collective, you know, the more empowered that sex workers are online to me, that's a good thing. That's definitely, you know, a change from how the industry used to operate. And it seems like we're moving in that direction of the workers themselves having more power than, you know, the studios just because now anyone can, you know, make a website. So they're not like at the mercy of a big, you know, corporation or whatever. They could actually unionize. It could be, they would be covered under the National Labor Relations Act. So it's, it's a possibility. So, yeah, there's a lot of, like with a, like a lot of, like say with like webcam models, they are legally their independent contractors. That's how most sites operate. And it's nice because that gives them a lot of freedom, but it's, I haven't heard of any online sex work jobs that offer like benefits, you know, or health insurance. So, you know, if those things change in the future, that could be a good thing. Yeah. If they're independent contractors, then they can't unionize, but if they're working for somebody, like the one that I mentioned a little bit earlier under who interviewed Steph and Malinu, if they're working for somebody in one of those kind of places, there's a potential there. So. I am trying to remember, does anyone know what Steph and Malinu's view on sex, you sex work is? He is very much against it. Yeah. He is super duper against, you know, the thing he perceives as like female promiscuity. You know, he's really obsessed with women, like procreating at a young age and et cetera. I forgot about, yeah, that's right. Really more conservative views on sex. And he views it like as the women, it's funny because for a long time women in porn were viewed as the exploited, but now there's a new extreme of people being like, they're the exploiters, you know. So I think he's of that mindset that women are intrinsically less moral and more likely to exploit others to get ahead. You know, he's so, I have to admit, I like one of his views. I like one thing that he says, and that's his views on capitalism and Marxism. I do not like anything else he stands for. It's like, every time I listen to what he says when he was on Twitter, he got kicked off. I would, I would go in there and I just start cringing. He wants to see women all barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen and with an apron on. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's insane that he was literally almost at a million. Like I don't necessarily support him being deplavormed. I've mixed feelings on it, but you know, he was almost at a million subscribers, hugely influential guy, which is concerning to me. We'll see if we can get him on here. Yeah. Thanks for your question from Godless. I think this is Godless girl. Oh shit. Am I muted? I can't hear you. I can hear you. And Godless girl. Oh, hold on. I think I got disconnected. I can't tell. Let's see. I think we might have had a lag. Oh, I think I can hear it now. Yeah. I think I have like a $5 microphone. Godless girl. Yeah. She's been on my channel. She's been on my channel before and she and I reviewed some stuff. So hopefully she's not beating me up here. I don't know who this question is for. I can't remember who said objectively addicted to YouTube. She, this is what Godless girl says. She says, quote, she said objectively addicted to YouTube. What does that even mean? This is why blank aren't supposed to talk. Put a blank in her mouth. I don't know what that means at all. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I don't have no idea. But when I say objectively addicted to YouTube, I mean objective by the standards of what constitutes addiction, which is compulsive use of it to the detriment of your own life. And an inability to resist. So I mean, yeah, that's. Super interesting. In addition to. Wolf Alt Day Leon, who is hopefully going to be on. Modern day of eight soon. Ask Ruby, what are your thoughts about pedo gate. And way fair. I don't know exactly the exact details on what both of these mean. Can you tell us what both of these mean? Do you know? Uh, pedo gate. I'm not as familiar with. I'm pretty sure it's the idea that there's like, you know, the secret. Pedophile rings in like Hollywood, which is completely plausible and in which case I would say that is bad. I do not support it. And so I was waiting for, I think that's. Kind of going into like under, like there's, you know, cartoons that are animated to make the characters, you know, look very like underage. And I, I'm super mixed on that because it's like, it's either. Maybe going to help someone. Maybe explore that fantasy without harming it. Childs or a sense of an early, this is such a gnarly subject. I don't even know if I want to answer it. If there's a debate around the utility of that. So I guess I don't have a set feeling on it. Gotcha. Okay. So that's what way fair is. I've heard of that a long time. Oh, wait. No way. I thought he was saying something. Way fair. Oh, I think he's talking about the furniture company. They were like selling cabinets for like. $3,000. And it was, there was like this idea that way fair is selling like children online, you know, being like, I don't know. It's a whole shit show. I don't know if it's a real thing. Yeah. It's crazy. But I don't know. Wow. Oh, it says the way fair. Somebody wrote the way fair child trafficking thing was a hoax. Oh, like the, okay. It's kind of like. It was a compelling hoax though. I looked into it because it was like they had these like really basic piece of furniture that were listed for like $30,000. And then there was like these weird names. And I don't know. I don't fucking know. Some weird thing. Weird. Yeah. That's interesting. And thanks for your question. Let's see. As Modius said, speaking of modeling, James, you missed your calling. That's very kind of you as Modius. Like I said, I think all of these, these compliments are coming from like Bob the postman down in Alabama. So I'll take what I can get. Thank you, as Modius. Stuart Keating, thanks for your question. Or I should say statement says here's two bucks to help James become a YouTuber. Thanks for that. Yeah. That's interesting. And thanks for your question. Let's see. I think he's gonna become a YouTuber. Thanks for that. Appreciate that. Support means a lot. Oh yeah. Let's do it. It's really fun. And let's see. I think there were probably other questions. We've had some people disputing the definition of simp. I saw that. So simp is apparently, I think it was Manny said, they have less backbone than the standard cock or soy boy. Cock's a pretty bad word, right? Because I thought 2016 it was like starting to become more popular. It came on the stage. It exploded. And everyone was like, oh, they're the cuckiest cock that ever cucked. It was like everybody was saying cock. But then, this is totally going to get demonetized. I heard that, is it cuck? What is the word? Is it a hate word? I thought that was a word for a guy whose wife goes off and cheats on him. That's the origin is from cuckold, which is actually still a very popular fetish amongst online sex work circles. People love that shit, but it's used as an insult of like a beta male pussy soy boy, whatever the, you know, emasculated man who acts like a woman or something. Yeah, it was like always, and it used to be kind of, it was more acceptable, but then I thought that it was like became known as more like dark and derogatory, you know, more hate driven rather than just making fun of men for being poor lovers apparently. I don't know, but what are your thoughts, Ruby? You've got thoughts. I can't help it. These are the most interesting questions we've gotten. That's what your thoughts are too, absolutely. My thoughts on like the word cuck is, at this point, I think it's funny. It's become like a meme status. Like anyone who uses cuck like in a serious attempt to insult another person is generally viewed as you know, pretty cringe, but I think maybe people associated with like, you know, like more extremist hateful circles online, so it's popularized by people like on the alt-right, you know, would use that term all the time. But the word itself, I don't, you know, I never thought of like it's being like, you know, like a slur or anything. That's just my thought. Oh, got you. Okay, good. We're safe. Hey all, thanks for your questions, you cuck. I'm just kidding, you guys. Okay, so everyone left. No. So thanks for your question from, we have Stuart Keating had another, if you guys have to go, I know that this is usually we go an hour and a half, but these are just such interesting questions. Oh, I got nothing. That's fine. Yeah. It's, let's see. So Stuart Keating said, SJ, do you agree with Ruby's ideal world regarding online sex work, or do you want online sex work just gone completely? I'd like to see it highly diminished. I'd like to see it. So it's to get, to be able to access that, you have to go into specific sites that are geared. So you make sure that no kids can get into those sites. And so it's a, so, so it's not just something that anyone can get on YouTube and start producing videos on themselves and doing things like that that kids can possibly access. Gotcha. And thank you. Nine tails cosmic Fox. I don't understand this. This must be Ruby. I have a feeling you know you're, you see him young and hip, you know the slang says, says James doing overdrive today. Oh, and then they say, how are you ratioed? Is that something sexual? Okay. I don't think it is. So you're saying how are you ratioed? I don't know what they're saying. No, I don't either. But nine tails. I don't think it was sexual. Actually, I think I just totally turned it into but they said doing overdrive today. They must be because we're having three debates today. I think this is the most debates we've ever had in a single day, but they've all been epic. And someone else. So by the way, we have multiple people saying we have to have a simp debate. What does that look like? Sign me up. Well, for me, people take that shit so seriously. They get so triggered over simps like once I did make a video because there's this YouTuber I dubs who came out and supported his girlfriend who has an only fans. And I was like, hell yeah, I dubs. I'm all about supporting your partner. If you're comfortable with that, there's no reason. And if someone's not comfortable with that, that's fine. You don't respect people's personal choices and their relationships. But he was dog piled and people are acting like, you know, this is like disintegrating the fabric of, you know, the Western society is that, you know, men are turning into simps and women have too much power. I made a video critiquing it and I ended up taking the video down because I was swarmed with hate and then, you know, I realized I had some details that could have doxxed me in the video. So I instantly was just like, you know, I was scared by the, you know, the caliber of people showing up who are just so enraged to the point where they would want to like destroy me for being like, I don't think it's a big deal. It's so peculiar. It's very fascinating. Would you be willing to come here and defend the simps? Could we have a debate in which you defend the soy boys and say, Hey, this isn't a real thing to be made fun of. It's just a totally okay behavior. Hell yes. Well, let me think about it and do more research because this is just my kind of like interpretation of the issue as someone who's relatively new to the term. So I'll, but probably, yeah, most likely I would be totally down to do that. That would be fun. We, Oh, that'd be terrific. I can't wait. Who would like to just want to let you know, folks, if you're out there and you're listening, if you want to attack, if you want to say no, being a simp is a, it's an ill for our society. If you want to do that, you, that might be the debate we could set up. So that could be a fun one. And then Alex Gordon, forgive me. I think I missed your question. I saw you said, am I ignoring your questions? I promise I'm not. I must have just missed the first one and we've just got a lot flying in, but let's see. Alex Gordon. I'm looking for it. Yeah. Yeah, simp. Okay. I'm just kidding, man. I'm sorry. That's going to become the norm now. Don't really. I said, I actually, I support that norm. Distigmatize the word. We're going to take, now that's right. We're going to take it back. Yes. Yeah. So yes. Call me Lord simp. Jesse Peters. Let's see. Alex Gordon. I'm so sorry. I'm looking for your question, but I'm not finding, I'm seeing this one on me. What's the word I'm looking for? On the, while I'm, it's on the way of looking for it. Jesse Peters, thanks for your question. Ask, can we get an incel versus cam boy debate please? Ooh. I would also love, love to see that. Oh my gosh. I would be epic. You know, I've looked around. I've like put out, I've said like, hey, are there any incel people? Somebody here has to be watching. Like, I'm an incel. We've looked for an incel debater, but we haven't found anybody willing to jump in the ring. So let me know. I think I've got, I actually, on my discord, I talked to incels a lot. I like to try to bridge the gap between them because I do think that, you know, they're facing actual issues in society, but then they're just getting pulled down this path of like radicalization and these, you know, kind of wacky ideas. So I know quite a few incels. I'll, I'll ask them. She's got the connections. Yeah. Yeah. Let's see. Alex, look at your question, man. Alex Gordon. Let's see. Almost there. He says, I'm a cock. I saw that one. Let's see. That was for real. As modious. Thank you for your super chat. Says, I will simp for James. No homo. Appreciate that as a modious. Again, Bob, the postal worker from Alabama. And let's see who else. These have just been so juicy. I am fascinated. This. Oh, I get it. Okay. Sims. There's, I guess a hierarchy of there's like simps. There's, would simps be below cucks? And then there's a soy boys. Yeah. I think like, it's probably like beta. Cuck. Simp. Actually soy boys probably equal to beta. They're kind of like of the same caliber. That would be my assessment. Yeah. I feel like they're so playful that like soy boy, you can call anybody soy boy. And it's just fun. Well, there's people, there's actual people online who use that dead serious. It's, yeah. The internet's strange. It's a strange place. Let me see if we have any last questions before we go. Let's see. Let's see. I think that's it. And want to say thanks so much, everybody. It has been a really fun debate. Very interesting. Of course. Well, I have to ask Brenton about soy boy, like what that means. We like to call Brenton a soy boy. We love him. But yes, thank you everybody. We have put the links of both Ruby and SJ in the description folks. So if you're listening and you're like, I would love to hear more. Well, good news. Those links are waiting. Thanks everybody for your questions. Thanks for being here and hanging out with us. Ruby and SJ has been a true pleasure. Thank you. Excellent. Oh, thank you so much for inviting me on. It was very fun. Absolutely. With that folks, we, yeah, by the way, folks, if you are hungry for more, we are very, oh wait, we do have one. What's the Weimar Republic? Oh, yeah, I, it's some, I think there's like a conspiracy theory around that that I'm supposed to be looking into. Or, I don't know, my mic keeps like fucking up. Dang it. Right at the. That was a conspiracy theory you said. Oh, I think so. Yeah, something. I don't know. That's just, yeah, I think that's what it is. I don't know. Gotcha. Okay. And yeah, so we want to let you know, folks, if you were hungry for more juicy debates, hot button issues, if you're a sick puppy like us, we will have another one tonight. That is on whether or not male privilege is a myth. So that one should be a fun one, very wild. Good to see you. So we thank you very much and keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable. Take care, everybody.