 The ETO meeting of the European external relations committee on the usual requests that mobile devices be switched off on airplane mode are to work with the sound system. We have apologised this morning from our colleague Adam Ingram and we are going to move straight into agenda item one because we have a very full-round table this morning and I thank you all for coming along. We have a very important and detailed topic to discuss and it is amazing to have such sucho ddechrau ar y cwymru mewn ddynnodau i helpu i'w amser cwymru ar gyfer hwnnw. Dros ein cyfleaeth, oedai i feithio i ddim yn cyfarwydd. Mae gennym ddodiau drwy gyd, ond rydyn ni wedi sicr fath o ddydig, ac mae'n bwysig i fod i'n gilydd gan bwysig oherwydd i'r pwysig. Os ydych chi'n clon inion i'w ddinkes, oedd y pwysig i'w ddinkes, i feithio i eich taiwydig i eich ddinkig i eich awg,果r eich gy�ochad, i'w mônidolion a wneud i ddenis iawn i fod yn yr oedol. Daan o'r cyfle i gyllidwyr hanfawr yn sgolfa yma, yn ddoch chi eu pethau, os ymateb nhw'n mynd i gwaith i ddweithio. Hoeddech chi'n mynd i chi, Mikel citw. Hoeddech chi'n mynd i gwaith i ddweithio. Hael mana iddynt, Llyfr�ed makele. Roeddent chi'n i wneud i gwaith i ddweithio. Wel, cwrs sailor Framweith yn felwyd i'r lluned yn teimladau. Roderick Campbell, MSP for North East 5. Andy Myill's Advocacy officer with Scottish Environment Link. Hi, I'm Arla Kearns, I'm head of the European Unit for SCVO, which is the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations. I'm Alasdór Sim, director of Universities Scotland. I'm Derek Elder from the Institution of Engineering and Technology. Andrew McConnick, from NFU Scotland. Jim McGridder, MSP Highlands and Islands. Ross Dago, Scottish Fisherman's Federation. Good morning and welcome. I'm Anne McTaggart. I'm Glasgow MSP. I'm Helen Martin. I'm the assistant secretary at the S2Z. Owen Kelly, I'm chief executive of the Scottish financial enterprise with a representative body for Scotland's financial services industry. Thank you very much indeed. I thank all of you who provided us with written evidence. Wrth written evidence is always very helpful when we have limited time to actually discuss these things, so we appreciate that greatly. I'm just going to go with the open question that if you wanted to see some reform in the European Union, where would you see that reform and how would it look? I'm just throwing that out there. The round table I would hope would work through me, obviously, but much more of a conversational situation. So, if you just give me a wee nod or a wee whatever and let me know that you want and I'll make sure everybody gets on to get a say, there you go. I shall launch in, Madam Chairman, for the sake of somebody's starting. From environment links point of view and the 36 organisations who are our members, we've in the last few years had to look at the issue of constitutional reform at Scottish level and now at UK and European levels. Our central request for any form of government which we are going to have to live with is that it recognises that it's not just about people and economics, it's also about the space in which we live, the land, sea and air in which we actually occupy and within the constitutional framework for whatever state, there should be a fixed understanding that we share the space with other species, other forms of life, and that they require stewardship and protection. This was something that we addressed in the white paper before the Scottish referendum last year and it's something that we're addressing as we run up to the EU referendum, trying to make sure that whatever constitutional arrangements we have, written or unwritten or in treaty form, they actually recognise that the constitution is not just about we the people of X, it's about we the people of a space which needs to be protected, looked after, stewarded and shared with all the other species. Scotland has a long history of engineering and manufacturing that still continues today, albeit perhaps differently from the way we would have recognised it in the past. The European Union isn't perfect, I think maybe that's one of the reasons why we're having the discussion today, but reforms have to make it better. I take Andy's point about constitutional issues, that apply as much to what people do and the environment in which they do it. The single market is actually vital for what Scottish engineering companies do, maybe more so than others, because it's export-orientated. Skills shortages are frequently mentioned. One of the things that would concern the engineering and manufacturing sector would be that if we can't attract the brightest and best to work in our companies from wherever they come, not necessarily just within the EU, that would actually affect the ability of Scotland to perform well at a global level. Thank you very much. Andrew. Thanks. I endorse a lot of what Derek has just said. We are very dependent on what export markets we need. We come in as a common agricultural policy market and we need a common policy to get our tariff-free products from Scotland across the whole of Europe. Europe has helped to deliver us access to 50 other partner organisations as well. We need that, and on to the labour. We actually need access to the labour supply from Europe free access to this labour. There's a lot of seasonal work that we do in our industry. You can see the similar things in the hospitality trade and that. If we were out with Europe at the moment, that would aspects to both ends of this. We're very strongly seeing the same thing that we need to get sorted out and considered. If there was to be reform, how would that reform look for the NFU? We want the common market to work properly. There's two or three things that's happening in there that we can see we could get access, better access to the market and simplification. Some of the greening stuff that has come forward, we could do with that being delivered back on a sovereignty basis where each country gets control of it. Instead of being that done from Europe, but it would be still, hopefully, fitting in with what Andy Miles is hoping for. We can achieve similar things if we all get the same use of it. There's a lot of risk-based stuff that's involved. We'd see it would be better being done as a hazard rather than a risk. We've seen neonicotinoids being brought in as a European and it's got to be a hazard rather than just a risk. We've got to have science behind it to make it work properly. We need to make better use of the science. I'm sorry, I'm going on, but there's some of the policies that could do. We've amalgamated directs of the MVZs in the water directive. If we could get that sorted out throughout Europe, it would make it easier and it would help to cut us down in some of the bureaucracy that we're getting in this country. If we need to get that, that Europe can pull that together and make it into something simpler for us. Jamie, do you want to come in? Yes, I would. I'd just like to ask... I've had a lot of farmers in my region have complained to me this year that their subsidies are much less because of the euro, because the euro has fallen. In general terms, farmers are getting about somewhere in the region a 20 per cent less, I think, isn't it? When they got last year. Is there any way in which that could be reformed? We don't have the pleasure of controlling currency exchange rates. It's NFU Scotland and it's basically the way Europe has gone. Some of the countries in Spain, Portugal and Greece made the euro worth what the euro is. We would certainly appreciate a change in the value of currency, but we don't seem to have control over how this is delivered. It's part of the way we are. It seems to me that this is a type of unfairness that this can be controlled by a falling currency. Therefore, are Scottish farmers having less that they can invest? Sorry, I wouldn't agree with that. It's the exchange rate that's controlling the value of what we're getting payment. We'd still get the same amount of money in euros. The money is determined to us in pillar 1 through euros. So it's just the exchange rate that's causing the issue. It's not actual currency. It's how the exchange rate is working, the difference in the value of the pound against the euro. I take that point, but the fact remains that it's still the farmers who are being disadvantaged. I will not be the only sector that's being disadvantaged. I would imagine the engineering guys are suffering just as well. A lot of the people that have got an export-based business will be getting the same disadvantages. So would you say from the point of view that you would prefer to be in the euro rather than the pound? No, it still works back as euros. What are you saying then? I'm saying it's exchange rate. We get paid in euros. The money that we have delivered from Europe with pillar 1 payments is based on euros. When it comes across here, it's exchange 90 pounds. It's always going to be that value, and it's what the exchange rate is. We've taken a 13 per cent cut in the value of the pound against the euro over the last two years. That's where the significant difference is. Okay, that is a really interesting way to go. I've got Gary to come in next, and then Rod. Yeah, I agree with an awful lot of what has been said so far. From the point of view of our members' businesses of all shapes and sizes across Scotland, looking at the EU, looking at the potential for reform, what we want any tier of government to do is to provide a supportive environment for businesses to grow, to create employment and wealth in Scotland. From the EU's point of view, I think that there is an undercurrent from our members that we're picking up in terms of that point about local decision making. Often the EU is seen as being, if anything is happening in the EU, but the time you find out about it, it's too late to do anything about it. There's a frustration that builds alongside that. I think that we would want to see more transparency. We would probably want to see more in terms of our local focus of decision making and more emphasis on the role of national governments throughout Europe rather than centralised decision making within Europe. So I think that any form of reform within the EU would need to look at that issue, and that's a clear message that's come through from our members. Derek, did you want to come in on that point there? Yeah, I was just briefly to say that political decisions can affect exchange rates, and Chancellor's and his equivalents make decisions that can affect exchange rates, and world markets determine that. It's really beyond the competence of trade bodies, because engineering was mentioned, professional bodies to affect that. We can describe how it affects our constituents, but it's really not in our professional competence to be able to influence them. That's over to you as politicians. Rod. I'll just broaden it out slightly, but following on from some of the comments that Gary Clarke was making, the third head of David Cameron's reform agenda is sovereignty. He's calling for an enhanced role for national parliaments by proposing a new arrangement where groups of national parliaments acting together can stop unwanted legislative proposals and obviously a desire to see the commitment to subsidiarity, whatever that means, fully implemented. I'd be grateful for the views of the various members of the panel here on those two aspects. Foster, do you want to come in there? I didn't mind. We are governed by the common fisheries policy, which was reformed within the last two years. It was great play made of a move towards regionalisation. Unfortunately, because of the treaties, the EU has exclusive competence for the conservation of marine biological resources. So anything that can be done from the member states is really advisory. The EU will ultimately make the decision, and the big decisions are made there. Fishing in Scotland is pretty well devolved apart from dealing with Europe when it's the UK as a member state. That is the problem that we seem to have. We can think and groups of countries around say the North Sea or the North West waters can work together to do things, but ultimately the EU will make the decision. How would you see that reform then? Very difficult. This is one where it would possibly have to be a treaty change simply because of that clause. I think that it's probably fair to say that if a group of member states in a sea basin took something forward, then the EU would find it very difficult to say no if we were all in agreement, but it's still there. You might have something to say in subsidiarity, but you are not having the whole half hour. No, I promise you. I will be grateful for that. The COSLA's cross-party organisation made up by local authorities we take a very keen interest on this matter and we approach from the point of view of what is the role of local government that has one of the tiers of governance in Europe. In reality we have four tiers of governance of the EU, the member state, the devolved administrations and local government. So it's a pretty complex area. We have worked on that for many years and certainly what we are looking forward in terms of the current discussions not just what's going to come from the next summit but the discussion is going to come after is to improve some of the arrangements that currently exist at the European level but also the way it is decisions regarding the US don domestically. I don't think it's just exclusively Scottish or UK interest for local government because we are in close contact with our colleagues from, for instance, the Benelux or Scandinavia, which are then discussing these issues with this government. So it's actually much wider than the UK referendum but the UK referendum discussions are providing opportunities to consider that. One thing that we will see there's need to be improving is clarification of what subsidiarity is. If you look at the treaties it's contradictory. In one end says it should be the decisions to be taken as far as possible closest to the people. On the other part of the treaty it says it's according to the scale and volume of decisions which tend to favour decision-taking at EU level. So that's something that should be improved and they are both legal and practical ways to do so. There should be a clarification of powers because if you look at the list of the treaty what EU powers with shared competence are very, very general. Because they are very general, everything can be taken at EU and we are sometimes not having the right discussion about what should be the decision and where it should be taken because the rules and the treaties themselves are ambitious. I'm sorry, ambiguous. In essence, just to conclude we should focus on what is the EU providing added value to the international organization where people pool resources and make partnerships. But equally, at the domestic level there's a discussion to be had in Scotland, in the UK, but also in other countries in terms of how we understand the European legislation, how we formulate negotiating positions, how to implement that. There's a number of countries that have very well robust arrangements between the national and local level or within the Member State Parliament to have enhanced scrutiny. There are, indeed, opportunities to revisit domestic arrangements in that front here in Scotland as it is the case in other countries. Thank you. On that point, I just wanted to respond to your initial question. If you want to pursue that, I can come in. On your go. From the point of view of financial services responding to your initial question about reform in general our environment is shaped a great deal in the European Union. There's two big things that shape the environment for financial services. One is tax, which is predominantly Member State, and one is regulation, which increasingly is EU-wide. Partly reflecting the development and importance of the single market for financial services. I suppose that's number one on our list of areas for reform. There is a sort of nascent single market for financial services in the EU. The nascent products created and sold here in Scotland can be distributed throughout the EU to pension funds in Spain and everywhere else. That's not true for lots of other things like insurance policies and other things like that. The reason for that is Member State tax frameworks predominantly. There's more that can be done on the single market. The second area of reform that we would see as important is in this whole area that people tend to describe as better regulation but I think already the Yunca commission has made some quite interesting steps forward on that. They've accepted the commission that it's no longer a badge of honour to see how much legislation you can produce. Certainly in our own area in financial services they're undertaking a sort of review of the cumulative impact of the many regulatory changes that have come in the last since the financial crisis. I suppose the third area for reform is growth. There is, as many people will know, a really big piece of work going on at the moment to create a capital markets union. That's happening regardless of any debates we may be having in the UK about reform. This is a big move and that has the potential to open up capital markets right across the EU so that an SME here in Scotland might have access to funds from other parts of the EU much more easily. The capital markets union has the potential to do some exciting things. The fourth area is having to... We do, I think, and I know this was in the Prime Minister's letter we do have to tackle the relationship in the economic governance sphere between the eurozone and the non-eurozone countries. The UK is not on any foreseeable trajectory going to join the euro but we should keep in mind that it's only the UK and Denmark that actually have an opt-out so when the Prime Minister talks about the non-euro countries it's a smaller group than we might think because other countries are committed to joining at some future date so that's really important. I guess they're the main areas of reform from our point of view. Before I bring Willie Coffey and Alison do you want to come in and I'm going to bring Helen so that it means everybody's had a response to the initial question. Thank you, Christine. Thank you for having us today. Reform I guess what we would ask is what is the role of civil society in Europe in terms of directly representing EU citizens. Civil society is huge in Europe but there's an extensive array of civil society in all member states and European level organisations that represent civil society at a European level and in terms of some of the critical questions that the European Union needs to address civil society has many of the solutions whether it's from the refugee crisis through to what is the next what does our social policy and welfare look in the next 25 to 30 years so there are lots of solutions that civil society can provide so our question in terms of reform is what is the current role of civil society and how can we improve that? Now there are many current organised structures that give voice to civil society but we would like to see that hugely improved in terms of transparency of the commission whether they look at things like a commissioner for civil society or they look at operational issues and how the operationalised participative democracy within the commission within the Parliament so there are some probably pretty clear practical examples that we could give in terms of reform one of the current structured dialogues way to give structured dialogue is through the European Economic Social Committee we would like to see that have a bit more teeth and its connection to the other political institutions strength and so that actually the various groups within the European Economic Social Committee hold the commission and others to account more and can allow more participation for civil society through those structures I think the third area that is certainly more, which is maybe more relevant for us here in Scotland is regions and how regions are reflected within the EU I spend a lot of time working with colleagues my colleagues and sister councils right Europe and being a region does have a different relationship your membership is different I'm not advocating one thing or another but I do think that our membership needs to reflect the regions better so that we have more direct access and a direct relationship with the EU I'll just make a wee tiny wee point on the exchange rate that's a big impact on third sector organisations because when the exchange rate comes back you can benefit one way or the other because it can actually decrease you've got to set what your cost is at that point and when the exchange rate comes back it can be higher or less so quite often the money that comes back to NGOs is also so less but that's just something we've lived with for a very long time Thank you very much Helen, do you want to come in now in Alistair? On the trade union point of view we have two main areas of concern when it comes to reforming Europe the first is just simply democratic I think that European institutions seem quite a long way from the people which they serve, they're poorly understood there's very few opportunities to really engage within the decision making process and when you see European citizens really standing up and trying to engage in quite complex issues like for example the opportunities to do the other are quite limited the feedback from the commission on what they're actually negotiating on behalf of the union is very limited and the reform that comes out of the pressure is very limited so from the point of view of an average citizen it's quite difficult to really involve yourself within European decision making and I think that if we were going to reinvigorate the union and have a different union going forward it would have to be one that was much more accountable to the citizens of Europe Equally the trade union movement really recognises the benefits that have come from Europe over a period of time and we recognise the benefit of the common market and how that supports business but for us really the question is how that's balanced against the provisions within social Europe and I think the original design of the union was a very good one and the social Europe emphasis was pretty strong but in recent years we've seen not really eroded we've seen quite right leaning decisions and I think from our point of view we want to see a reinvigoration of the social Europe elements of the European Union going forward Thank you very much Alasdair In a sense we don't really want to say enough a lot about reform because actually I'm conscious that the university sector is actually getting a lot of benefit because it's already running European Commission funding through Horizon 2020 in the previous framework programme 7 is the third biggest source of project funding for research research is by its nature across border enterprise around half of all the published research papers from Scotland are internationally co-authored so having international structures as part of that complex ecosystem of research makes sense so that we benefit from being able to help our students to be mobile through the European Union and through the Erasmus programme where I think we've now got well over 2,000 students a year taking advantage of that to study across Europe and I'm very conscious also on the staff side that mobility is hugely important I think about 14 per cent of university academic staff are from the EU a lot from other countries outside the EU as well the mobility of talent is hugely important on the reform side I guess the one thing I'm aware of but I think it's really really hard to tackle is we are extraordinarily proud to welcome over 13,000 students from the EU to Scottish universities they add an enormous pedagogical richness and the people who have chosen to come whether from Ireland or Germany or Greece or wherever those are our three biggest markets they've got to get up and go to have got up and gone so they really do add to our universities but obviously because of the entitlements that EU citizens have and the EEA citizens have the Scottish Government is paying for the tuition costs of these welcome people I think back in 2011 that the SNP manifesto flagged up that it wanted to address the issue but actually to be honest I think the free mobility of people for educational reasons as much as any other reason is so hardwired into the EU that I don't think it's an area that to me looks one that is readily reformable Okay, okay. Willie Coffey In many ways I think the horses already bolted in terms of the UK Government establishing what its four key priorities for EU reform actually are and a couple of weeks ago I got the chance to ask Mr Lidington who he had consulted about these before the UK Government formed those four proposals. What I'm keen to know from this wide cross section of representatives here were any of your organisations consulted by the UK Government before they decided what these four priorities were and what do you think about that and it's great that you're here doing that with us because we can certainly gather that in and articulate it but would it also be your intention to write to the UK Government with some of the points that you're making too to express your priorities quite clearly in terms of EU reform to the UK Government because it's they who will be negotiating on your behalf so I'm curious about whether you were engaged with at all and what you would think about that and what you might want to do about it Derek I think the short answer is yes as far as the institution of engineering and technologies concerned would be corresponding with the UK Government however the timing is not perfect for a referendum on staying in or out of the EU we don't know what the wording of the particular referendum is going to be time is short and the amount of uncertainty between now and then is only going to increase so a qualified yes I'm saying that we will take the opportunity to probe the Government on its four priorities but a lot of uncertainty around it Were you asked to consult on what the four priorities should be? I'll say a qualified yes to that because I'm not the sole arbiter on that but if I have anything to do with it it would be a yes so a qualified yes to that Okay Andy The European Government a Westminster ran their review of competencies in the European Union which everyone was invited to participate in and the environment movement certainly made its views felt it has to be said that as with any other consultation there's a question as to how much you're actually listened to when the priorities are set but I'd like to return to this question of sovereignty and subsidiarity because we feel that it's fairly vital to this whole discussion environmentalists generally believe that decisions taken as close as possible to the individual and local communities are likely to protect the environment better that the further away geographically that a decision is being taken particularly on economic matters the less likely the environment is likely is going to be the focus of that decision and be one of its major elements so we're strongly in favour if there is reform of the EU for the entrenchment of the idea of subsidiarity but we would point out that it really has to be at all levels it can't just be at European level it needs to be something that is brought into international law we're dealing with global problems like climate change which cannot be dealt with at local level so we need agreements internationally on these things but we need subsidiarity to preserve power and sovereign power not just in the hands of the nation state but in the hands of the individual and the local community it needs to be brought in as a principle that comes in there is a certain amount of questioning going on inside environmental minds at the present moment as to whether the claim that one of the four items subsidiarity and power being brought to national level is the hugely important thing it is when you see a Government at the same time being in the cheerleader for TTIP and that's not going to be bringing power back to any local community or individual anytime soon far from it it's going to see accumulation of power in corporate hands and in fact power is going to be moved in the opposite direction of subsidiarity under TTIP and there seems to be a real contradiction in the position of the UK Government but it also applies here in Scotland regardless of whether Scotland is independent or part of the UK or part of the EU or whatever our view is that decision making here should be taken with subsidiarity as well and that decisions need to be moved back down to local councils but even beyond local councils as in the community empowerment bill to go further to take decisions down to really local level so that people really consider their environment up with pollution with waste dumps with unintended consequences and a whole series of environmental consequences in the places that people actually live Just briefly on the same thing of course we've subscribed many of the statements made about subsidiarity in local empowerment but in the questing about really questing on the negotiation many of us contributed to the balance of competence of view and I believe that COSLA was from local government across the UK the one that contributed the most a length to that then there has been an element of negotiation at a very senior level but at most what might be agreed in the December summit in March is just general terms of reference then there has to be spelled out in both or political matters even possibly treaty reform and that is the opportunity that we are looking forward together with our partners to try to narrow down some of the broad principles that hopefully will be agreed among leaders as a starting point in the next few weeks and that gives the opportunity for clarifying what it is should be done at new level and in a way a challenge a bit more the assumption that things are best on the European level that is currently in the European institutions but equally offers an opportunity here to see how can we best deal with Europe domestically for instance what could be the role of the Scottish Parliament in the anti-scrutin mechanism for instance the House of Law is at the moment piloting a system to make proposals to Europe called the green card well there is perhaps a role there for the devolved parliaments, the same in federal parliaments in other member states so another thing that is important to know that it is very likely that any movement in terms of subsidiarity should be based in the Dutch proposals on subsidiarity that were tabled a couple of years ago to which my opposite numbers for the Netherlands were very much involved in preparing so that gives an opportunity to perhaps not at in the previous stage but to involve in detail I do remember 10 years ago the Coastal and the Scottish Executive drafted a joint statement on new reform that was sent to the European Convention which is led to the Cameron and Lisbon Treaty the same way that could be done this time, the same way that perhaps the Scottish Parliament and the UK Parliament could come to a joint approach about what they would like for reform and subsidiarity scrutiny which I believe will remain an opportunity in this opening. Thank you. I am going to move on to the second part of our deliberations today but I just wanted to make sure that on ideas for reform if you have got your say on that and yet Andrew I am going to try and tie a lot to that I have no awareness whatsoever about NFU Scotland being asked about some of the stuff that has been taking forward in this discussion you can see that by the total lack of any mention anything to do with agriculture we would certainly have had something to say if we had been asked but there is nothing being in there and it is a very significant part of the Scottish farmers income is the money coming out to Europe we need that money in there to keep the job supported but on the subsidiarity I can see a real place for coming in we have a better place on the subsidiarity if we could get regulations within Europe that fits arid lands in Greece with a Paris basin for growing grain with the rain and that that is happening in Scotland you probably haven't noticed them out we have had this summer and they try to make one regulation fit all and we are finding the likes of your three crop rules and that is designed for the Paris basin to deliver that in Scotland we are quite keen to be green we want to join everything together but we are 85 per cent less favoured areas and to try and tie us in with these other regions subsidiarity would help to produce something a bit better out of that if we could deliver what Scotland needs for Scotland or the United Kingdom delivers what United Kingdom needs for the United Kingdom rather than having that so subsidiarity is one of the things that we could see as a benefit Owen and then Jamie to sponsor that specific question about the UK Government because our environment, as I was saying is predominantly shaped by UK frameworks and EU frameworks we have frequent discussions with UK ministers and this always has been part of those discussions I remember that there's a contrast between an industry like ours and an industry like agriculture where it's very much just part of something we discuss with the UK Government all the time I just really want to know if anyone thinks that the Prime Minister's reforms or what he wants for his reforms go far enough I'll wait you back in a minute but basically I'd say I refer to my previous answer okay all I've got a hands-on who's got a specific question then Mark thank you Alistair you made a reference to tuition fee I'm very keen in that area in particular because of our educational institutions depend a great deal on that what are your concerns at present and would you like to see it done to protect that I wouldn't want to frame it simply as an issue of concern I think as I said at the beginning I think the fact that we are able to attract students from across the EU is a testament to the quality of what we're able to provide and I think they do offer just a huge richness to what we provide so I don't really identify of course it's a problem issue but I am conscious that the Scottish Government is picking up the tab that teaching grant is supporting Scottish domiciled and EU students and the number of EU students we have is obviously putting a significant pressure on that I honestly don't know that there is a way around that I think that is just really part of the consequences of the fact that people do have freedom of movement in the EU I mean we were supportive in 2011 when the SNP manifesto said let's have a look and see if there's some way we can introduce some form of financial contribution from EU students to the costs of coming to university in the EU and I think there's models that we're looked at for instance in the Republic of Ireland nominally it's fee free but actually students pay from Ireland or the recipe they pay an administration charge each year but I think to be fair to the Scottish Government there was pretty substantial thought and due diligence on how could you construct something that was compatible with the treaties that would enable a financial contribution from EU students and I think that really the pretty thorough answer that came back was if you're in the wider European economic area it's something that goes so strongly against the treaties that a way forward was not found to enable some financial contribution from EU students so I'm not sitting here with a specific proposal for reform because I think actually a lot of work was done on that and it didn't come up with an implementable solution would you think that now that there is an opportunity to renegotiate in certain areas we should be considering this area as well it may be worth further study as I say I'm not approaching that with a great sense of optimism because I think you know as I said not just at EU level but also if we were to retain membership of the European economic area I still don't think it gets you out of that I think that Jamie makes a point are we going far enough or are we asking for enough this may be an area of work that we could consider asking thank you come back to my question if you don't consult with people about what their wishes and desires are you get what you've got here you've basically got four priorities that are about restricting immigration opting out of more EU integration cutting rid tape that's the basket of wishes and the four wishes that they have there's nothing in there about carp reforms there's nothing in there about a fair price for Scotland's farmers for their milk there's nothing in there about Scotland's allocation a pillar one, pillar two being the lowest in the European Union I mean I'm glad that Mr McConnick said what he said there because if they'd asked the NSU what your priorities were I'm sure he would have said that and I'm sure that we would have hoped that they might have formed part of the submissions but I suppose convener has to continue that dialogue directly with UK ministers to make sure that your voice is heard we'll certainly, I'm sure, be doing that through this European committee but I would encourage you to do the same directly yourself I've actually had meetings with the Secretary of State David Mundell pressing some of these issues but as you'll have noticed there's nothing on agriculture that has appeared anywhere but we had a non-farm meeting with David Mundell allegedly giving us access straight to the cabinet we thought but there's no mention agriculture and we'd be pretty strong if we were given the opportunity there's quite a lot, as you say and you've mentioned and highlighted some of our bigger priorities that we could do with but we need that and we'd like to see some of that being brought in as part of the minister's renegotiation Prime Minister's renegotiation because CAP forms almost 40% of the budget in Europe we're a very, very important part of what goes on in Europe and we could do with being part of these renegotiation if nothing else to get a points of view across that we are needing across but thank you for the opportunity to come in back in on that Helen? I think just to follow on from your original question some of the points that have been made since we certainly had no opportunity to contribute to what the negotiation priority should be and I'm not aware that there was a formal consultation on that and certainly from the STUC's point of view but I think also from the TUC's point of view that we're extremely concerned about some of the areas that have been selected the focus on the benefits for migrant workers I think is just playing to a right-wing audience rather than trying to solve a problem within our economy and we're concerned as well that in order to solve that problem you would need to push down on the rights of our own young workers as well that that might be the only way in which to achieve the ends we're also hugely concerned about the focus on the reduction of workers' rights within the negotiation priorities and I think the STUC is clear that if this is likely to be if there are significant changes to that to the system and to how social Europe functions and to the UK's access to social work in particular that puts us in a difficult position with our members and it is not guaranteed that we would necessarily continue to support the European project in those terms Do you want to come in very quickly and then we need to move on to the next topic Yeah, very quickly the question that's really being discussed here is do the proposed four areas of reform go far enough well for us to be quite honest and I think this represents the view of quite a lot of people we didn't ask for this debate and this referendum at all it's not whether they go far enough or not I think that for many of us there are priorities other than this type of constitutional change and that you know in my own sector we're dealing with the massive loss of biodiversity with climate change with a few issues which we think are kind of important and it sometimes sometimes feels like shuffling the deck chairs when we're actually debating any of these constitutional issues when we would prefer our politicians not to be scobling about the rules but to actually be tackling some of the genuine serious horrific issues which we have to face up to Ann, do you want to move us on to the implications of the next meeting? I think that Helen has just kind of answered but can I ask even just for Alison to follow that up it was about the rights of workers and I'm aware Helen that was to you both yourself and Helen Helen has just mentioned about the rights of workers could I possibly ask yourself to workers to what extent has a membership of the EU affected the rights of workers in Scotland Well Helen probably has more experience about specific rights of workers but I think in terms of our membership of the EU in terms of legislation around employment those kind of protections and obviously equality and human rights legislation has they've been fairly key drivers the European Union's been fairly key drivers of some practices that are to be protected and enhanced and enshrined around equality for lots of vulnerable groups those that have been marginalised in society and marginalised from the labour market and participating in their democracies in society so there are some very fundamental things that we now take for granted or have taken for granted for a very long time that have been driven by the EU project in its entirety there is always some great initiatives and quite often if you listen to a lot of things that are discussed and debated on the employment level some great innovative conversations lots of wacky stuff but that's what democracy is all about there are some fantastically brilliant ideas that are debated and they lose their momentum they lose something in the clunky democratic deficits that sit around it to find their way out into member states but I think it's not to be forgotten with some of those things particularly around lots of employment rights and protections whether it's paternity leave, quality for pay for maternity conditions all of these things they have been set by the European Union not by the UK what would be the impact on your organisation if we found ourselves outside the EU Andrew I'll keep cutting in on this but having said earlier nearly 40% of the European budget is going to cap I think it would be pretty serious implications for our indices in 2014 there's 560 million pounds committed to Scotland in support payments for agriculture that money is directed at agriculture but it delivers a long way down the chain we're actually I would say roughly each pound that's spent through that is a quantity 4 pound to the rural economy because of the weight class gauge down through the different businesses keeping other businesses in the area there's absolutely nothing that's been brought in to say how if we exited Europe that money would be replaced and when times are good it gives us opportunity to reinvest more business and build them up for strong when times are bad it's keeping us in business and that's the position we're in now so we need to see if there is a talk I exit we need to see what it is that's going to come into place and that was part of my comments that we've never been consulted this has got to be highlighted because that could result in I would say land abandonment in more remote and more difficult and harder places because it's just not worth these people there and if that happens we're going to lose communities it's the downstream effects of how this money is used so the implications would be absolutely huge okay Dandy it's a very very difficult question from an environmental point of view what would happen if we left in many respects you've got to ask what would happen if we never joined and the chances are that some of the very beneficial European legislation such as the birds directive and the habitats directive quite a few of the directives on matters of pollution might or might not to UK or Scottish law on the other hand the UK could have been better I would remind people that for instance the birds directive and the habitats directive largely follow from the Was Life in the Countryside Act passed by Westminster in 1981 under a Conservative Government and it seems old that you should prefer one piece of legislation to another particularly if we left as members have referred to we might well be members of the EEA and if you look at the countries of Europe that have implemented European law best you'll find that the best performer is in fact not a member of the EEU it's Norway and so if we left a big deal of difference to our legal situation with regard to environmental protection or the actual practice that is going on the ground it might but it might not would it be better or worse for the environment it might or it might not it might allow us for instance the opportunity to make a lot more sense of the impact of fishing and farming with regard to the environment and work out much better situations we might on the other hand sit down and find ourselves in the situation where for the environmental position it got a lot worse none of us have a crystal bowl as to what's actually happening going to happen one way or the other and I come back to this point that in many respects this debate is a distraction from the real issues okay on it's a terrible question to answer as others have hinted because we don't know what the terms of the relationship between the UK if it did vote to leave and the EEU would be and that's in the nature of these kind of processes you vote to leave and then you begin what a two year period I think under the Lisbon treaty and during that two year period you negotiate the terms of the relationship for the future pretty ambitious to get all that done in a couple of years maybe it's achievable so it's very difficult to know and as I think in last year's referendum it's important to focus on what you can know rather than make assumptions about what might or might not be negotiated and I suppose a couple of quick observations one is that for an industry like ours it's currently very difficult to generalise about what companies might or might not do in response to a vote to leave the EEU because it will all depend on where their customers are companies in our membership all of their customers are outside the UK for example so big issues for them would be how will it be to be outside the EEU but still trying to serve customers within the EEU facts you can know about that are that you will have to do something to ensure that you're complying with EEU regulatory requirements if you want to provide say insurance into the large EEU market one of the things we've learnt to our counterparts in Switzerland is that for an industry like ours and I suspect there'll be others in the same boat if anyone thinks that by leaving the EEU you can sort of think less about it the opposite is the case Switzerland has to spend an awful lot of time tracking every single piece of legislation in the EEU because it wants to be part of that single market so the idea that you can kind of step away from it and sort of you know we won't have to worry about it so much is just completely wrong and I suppose you know final again slightly obvious point is that as part of a very large trading bloc we as part of the EEU I mean TTIP I know is a controversial example but in general terms if you believe in if you believe it's a good idea to have a trusted and respected world trade framework in the EEU you're part of one of the big players outside the EEU who knows Alasdair I mean I would echo what previous speakers have said about it all depends on what the successor regime is but I would say there's an awful lot in what we currently get out of the European Union that it would be that we really present a substantial risk if we lost that and I think I've talked about the free movement of talent I think that's really important I mean we are internationally connected organisations having the best talent within them and equally I've talked about research being a cross-border enterprise and I think structures who rise in 2020 such as Marie Curie initiatives to help researchers cross borders and develop their research careers are all part of that cross-fertilisation of ideas that comes by being truly international and likewise being in the European Union as generators of intellectual property gives you the capacity to make sure that intellectual property is protected across the whole EEU when you generate it and patented it so there are really important benefits there that I think it would take some difficulty to reconstruct in a successor regime and I think particularly as outward focused international institutions we really are conscious of the value of being part of international structures Thank you The expense of joining the echo chamber as it seems I would have to emphasise the uncertainty and disruption that would result for the engineering and technology sector if the UK were not in the EU that's not to say and some people have made cases for and against indirectly that's not to say that it wouldn't be a good thing but uncertainty disruption Outside the EU would Scotland be as attractive a place to work and Labour mobility has been mentioned very important to the engineering sector and it would include research and studying but also would UK firms wish to stay in the UK if it were outside the EU because as has been mentioned you can't ignore it just because you're outside it Switzerland, Norway the licence of European Union regulation we would not be part of a global trading block and that's also been mentioned TTIPs come up what opportunity would the UK and indeed Scotland have to influence negotiations over such a global trading partnership Thank you I think one of the best things as an MSP for Highlands and Islands region one of the things that has been the best part about the EU was the structural funding we got when we were objective one status which built a great many causeways and bridges and linked up a lot of things but of course that structural funding tends to go more to the emerging countries now rather than to Scotland My real question I've got is really more about the single market and I put this to the Chamber of Commerce particularly I mean I know how important and this is not just the Chamber of Commerce I mean I think Scottish Financial Enterprise the NFU, the Scottish Fishermen's Federation all of you really how important is access to the single market Yeah, happy to do so I was going to make a couple of points that gets in very well with that I think overall when we did some research amongst our membership across Scotland earlier this year on the issue of the referendum and the implications of that when we asked businesses at that time we asked them round about the end of August so it's a few months old now but we found that almost three quarters of businesses said that they would be minded to vote within the EU at that time and round about 13% said that they would be minded to vote to leave When we drilled down into that and looked at the potential benefits and threats from an exit from the EU we found that a large number of businesses thought affected either way but where threats and benefits were identified then the threats substantially outweighed the perceived benefits if the UK was to come out of the EU and principle among that was trading so any business who is exporting any business who is importing round about a third of all businesses that we surveyed told us that they perceived negative impacts from coming out of the EU in terms of their export strategy or their import strategy and about 40% of businesses told us that there were threats to their overall growth strategy I think interestingly to come back in some of the points that have been made from the university sector and the engineering sector we also found that almost or certainly over one in five businesses told us that there was a threat to their recruitment strategy so that tells us a great deal and certainly when we speak to educational institutions in our membership they are very concerned even the perception that the fact that we are having a referendum on our future membership of the EU could have in terms of being able to attract students to what are world class institutions in Scotland and of course as businesses we draw hugely from that more particularly from an international background from what our educational institutions can provide so I think that there is certainly a wide range of areas there including but not restricted to the European or the single European market where clearly we export almost 13 billion pounds of goods and services each year at the moment there is a whole wide range of areas where there are perceived threats and given that there is an unknown as everyone has said so far I think that we ought to take those threats seriously Ross I think that the Scottish Fisherman's Federation has heard quite a difficult relationship with the EU over the years so maybe you can give us a different perspective well I think I don't want to bring up ancient history but I will if you go back to the 1970s I think it's probably accepted that the fishing industry in the UK was in the river in order to join the EU and if you came out of the EU the theory obviously is that since most of the fishing resources are in what would be Scottish stroke UK waters you'd get a bigger share of what was there however you would have to then have negotiations with all the other countries at the moment for instance the talks that are going on at the moment there is an annual EU Norway talk about straddling stocks in the North Sea if we came out then there would be a tri-party discussion you would have to renegotiate with all the other countries that fish in what are currently EU waters that become UK waters I would think that it would be disingenuous to think that any UK stroke Scottish Government would not continue to pay attention to what I see as the international council for the exploration of the seas who provide all the stock advice they would still listen to what that was so it wouldn't be a free for all you would still be constrained so on top of that a lot of the species that the Scots fleet especially catch are exported into the Eurozone so there are indications there there are lots of big questions that would have to be answered I would like to go back to the money that comes into farming and in terms of fishing I mean we benefit under the new scheme which is going to be European maritime fisheries fund and the UK allocation is going to be somewhere in the region of 243 billion euros Scotland's going to get about 10780 million euros out of that there's been great play being made especially in Scotland that doesn't reflect the size of the Scottish fishing industry well as has already been said these are convergence funds it's not a case of how big is your industry it's how poor a country are you so that's the basis in which these are made the only negotiated bit of it in the UK is it too simplistic to say that since the UK is a net contributor to the EU that if you came out of the EU all the funds that were going to the EU could replace what goes to the farmers and the fishing or would the UK Treasury just hoover it up Alison I think did you want to come in at that point yeah just on the implications of that I vote to leave in terms of the third sector in Scotland we don't really know what all the implications are we're just at the early stages initial stages of conversations with the sector on raising awareness of the debate and getting them to think about this and we're kind of launching that a bit more in earnest at our gathering in February get some greater conversations about what are all the implications for everybody and get people to think about it and things that maybe we haven't thought about so far but in terms of the the European Union is a it's matched more than a peace project or a free trade area for civil society civil society has a fundamental desire and there are benefits from closer collaboration with the rest of civil society across Europe our broad interest in social issues containing market forces stronger welfare policies make us ideologically compatible politically and ideologically consequently we often agree on broad policy areas and we operate within very similar institutional contexts throughout Europe but surprising how much similar things are so we have a strong desire for us to collaborate and to understand and to try and address solutions that face human beings, people in society and our communities so it's a much greater thing than just this free trade area what we do know in terms of the implications for leaving the EU now are some things around structural funding and European funding there's been less and less money coming to the third sector in Scotland through structural funds but there's also no guarantee that that money would come back to the third sector there are some policy areas that we have quite a strong input into around employability environment, poverty, gender equality and human rights at a European level we would have to address that through the UK constitutional and institutional frameworks there is no guarantee that we would have the same participation, we'd have the same voice or same influence and we certainly wouldn't have the same collective collaboration and understanding because our problems are local but the solutions are global and we have to reach out whatever constitutional or institutional environment allows that to reach out for us it's about people participating and to participating in the decisions that affect them and in many ways they do that through organised structures at a community level which we essentially call civil society whether it's through their community groups whether it's through larger organisations and without straining into questions around representation and representative democracies if you have big organisations that I don't know, there's a big platform called dementia Europe that has all the dementia organisations across Europe and they're working really hard at a European level to really address some things around dementia and the services for people that are affected by dementia throughout the whole of the European Union it's a big issue for us as a society globally going forward dementia is just one area but civil society is working collectively on that big policy area they represent directly the interests of people suffering from the whole spectrum of dementia right through to those working in it to carers and families now who represents somebody's interests better than suffering from dementia that platform the current political structures or the current political environment so for us it's about how civil society participates in the democratic processes that are there so the implications of us not being there are not fully visible to us until they're not there Ross has got me excited £5.1 billion in 2014 is what Scotland's food and drink was production when it's being exceeded we're doing that, that's what I export 73 per cent of the United Kingdom's export market and food and drink goes to Europe but the point about the funding there's absolutely nothing that has been mentioned anywhere about what would happen to the equivalent agriculture money equivalent fisheries money in Europe from the UK Government and they've never shown an awful lot of enthusiasm deffra has never shown a lot of enthusiasm from other than the market returns and if you look at where agriculture is this year which is far worse than it's been for a long time we're in a mess and the market is not deliverable I'll give you some examples of the levels of payments beef the support payment in beef industry is 42 per cent of the output which is equivalent to 200 per cent of a beef farmer's income on the sheep sector 34 per cent of the output is 240 per cent of the income and it's 9 per cent this is in last year's figures 9 per cent of output is 50 per cent of income there will be a far, far different story but coming right back to what was mentioned about Lisbon we put it in our submission about the Lisbon agreement there in EU Lisbon Treaty article 50 states that any member state withdrawing from the European Union shall not participate in discussions the European Council or Council are in the decisions concerning it I don't think we'd be allowed to even discuss and their decisions would be made beyond it and there's nothing going to be guaranteeing us what the tariffs are going to be to trade with that 73 per cent United Kingdom's export market there's nothing in there, we don't know how it's going to do it and there's also the implications that other countries import into United Kingdom Scotland we would lose the strength that we've gained from using Europe as a negotiating body would be a poorer and weaker negotiator and that would probably result in other products coming in that would make our market even more difficult Thank you chair I am in the peculiar position that the whole purpose of my job is to get myself out of a job that means to arrive in a place that most EU decisions don't directly affect local government reality is playing it's a bit more nuanced and has already been evoked it is on the one hand when we have higher standards that we have in Europe we have a contradiction here yesterday was a stable new package on waste waste targets the Scottish legislation and programmes are actually more ambitious so what we end up having is to re-engineer the domestic one with the EU level just to make sure they closely align because one thing is the target and the other is actually how to deliver them of course if there were no EU law applicable to councils there would be perhaps easier arrangements to do share services buying local provisions in tendering which are now very much restricted or of course a lucid stay date however at the same time as I say the reality is more nuanced next door to my own office in Brussels are my Norwegian Icelandic colleagues and as I was mentioned they are there even if they are no member of the EU because a lot of the legislation coming from Europe still affects their local governments and actually as I say they are not part of the decision making process they have to be paying a lot of attention what's going on and they carry by the way excellence study on that the same for environmental input assessment so I think that safe for not having any relationship with the EU at all if there is any relation with the EU local government it appears will continue to be affected on the issue of EU funds as just mentioned I think has been highlighted in previous reviews in this committee elsewhere that the other value of EU funds or just structural funds but many of the other funds is they have the element of multi-annual programming so you know well beyond the scope of a comprehensive spending review what is going to be the spending but I think it's more important is the idea of priorities there's a number of priorities at the EU level that are openly discussed and they basically set you the vision that if you look at the latest Scottish economic strategy it's very much done in symbiosis with the EU 2020 strategy which is the EU level so in a way it helps influence the EU thinking but at the same time the EU thinking was helping to influence the domestic policy and that's an interesting symbiotic relationship so as I say most likely local government will continue to be affected our position to influence that will be obviously difficult so before getting to any of that I think we have to use the next few months to ensure there is a proper fundamentally about decisions are taking at the European level so that we can basically make an informed choice in terms of what is going to be impacting our sectors in our case in local government thank you another dimension is there any other questions or anything any of my colleagues around the table got any burning questions that they want to is there any other aspects that we haven't touched on this morning that you would like to bring up, Alison? the opportunities for being part of the European Union that the third sector have been involved in and potentially could be involved in more and whether that is restricted or prohibited if we're an EEA member or not or whatever place we are is yet to be clear but there are lots of opportunities that have arisen over the past few years for the third sector to collaborate whether it's accessing structural funding whether it's accessing the direct European money through what is now horizon and there's lots of others Europe for citizens money and they're all transnational funding so they can compel you to work in partnership across countries now these are fantastic opportunities not least for learning and sharing but also for exporting a good practice and things that happen within Scotland's third sector and I we'd like to see a lot more of that there are decidedly opportunities we've got quite a few third sector organisations that are involved in I suppose business relationships in terms of trading and owning sharing of buildings and all sorts of things collaboration over around jobs and civil society recruitment websites and things like that so we're not clear on the implications to any of that side of things with not being part of the EU and our concern is that the debate will be dominated by trade free trade will be dominated by immigration and some of the questions that our sector might get to and possibly later in the day because it's they're firefighting, they're not thinking enough about it and we'll want to try and help them to do that is that it will be quite late in the day and debate will be dominated by some of these things so there's lots of opportunities and we've had lots of opportunities as a sector within the current EU and I have concern about the debate and what questions are asked and what listening goes on Helen, just on the back of that something across my mind coming for a trade union background realising what the social union part of the EU has created with the working time directive and certain rights within your workplace not to be discriminated against equal pay rights to maternity leave the rights to a pension for women there's many many aspects of that that I think are very fundamental to good governance within a society that although the workers are treated well you get better productivity there for business and it's a ever-growing circle but what would you think the S2UC's reaction would be to a withdrawal from the EU and a withdrawal from all of that and I give you that question in the background of what we've seen thus far and the trade union bill and the impact that that would have I think therein lies the crux of the matter because I think it's fair to say that at present we don't have policy on our position with regards to leaving the EU or not at present we are in favour of the European Union but we recognise that there are areas that need performed and a lot of what drives the things that we like about the European Union are exactly all of the things that you've just mentioned the working time directive is a very very good example of a fantastic legislation that came to Europe until that legislation was passed in the UK that UK workers did not have a right to take time off and I think you know it is a testament to how poor our terms and conditions can be in this country without the drive from Europe for protection the difficulty comes when we start to analyse what's happening at European level at present and the direction of travel at present and the fact that collective bargaining arrangements in Belgium for example are being dismantled and the Lisbon treaty is used as the catalyst for doing that the fact that we've had poor judgments from the European Court of Justice that means that European workers can enter the UK work in the UK and be paid lower rates than UK workers effectively undercutting collective bargaining arrangements like that is another example of how things are how things can be driven down by Europe as well as pushed up the question then becomes about what is the offer for the UK going forward because yes we have to think about what we can negotiate with our own government but we also have to think about what our government is insulating us from as well because it might be that Europe continues to have quite good legislation but if we don't get access to it here in the UK then that doesn't necessarily benefit us very well and if we are also at the same time facing privatisation of our public services because of different decisions being made at the new level then that in some ways can make the situation worse so I mean there is no easy answer here there isn't and it puts the STUC in quite a difficult position because we recognise all the things that business has said about how much this benefits our economy and obviously we have an interest in that as well but we need that economy to work for people and we need people to be able to have effect on the decisions that are made in their lives as well and if that procedure doesn't work then we've got a serious question mark about how this union can really keep going in the longer term Just to inform the committee that the environment movement has been discussing the question of Europe because we have to it's on the political agenda and like colleagues around the table we haven't really fundamentally put our positions down on paper yet but I can report two things that might be of interest the first is that yesterday I was in Birmingham discussing amongst other things the European referendum with colleagues from our sister links in Belfast, Cardiff and London and it is likely that they will take the approach that Scottish environment link developed during last year's referendum which is to say this is the kind of country we want to live in this is the kind of Europe, Scotland, UK that we want to live in and how is your constitutional option going to best deliver our aspirations so that we will be challenging the in or out campaigns as to what effect they will be having on our aspirations and I think that that should be ready for spring early summer next year but the other thing is to say that over the last seven years I've represented a Scottish environment link fairly regularly over in Brussels at the European Environment Bureau which is the kind of link for the whole of Europe both EU and non-EU Europe and it's been a brilliant experience to go and share with colleagues from across the continent the things that they have done where they've succeeded and the things which they've done where they've not succeeded to share things where they've really made a difference to the environment and things where they've had real problems with industry or government or whatever and I've drawn ideas from back across Europe which have made a difference here in Scotland I hope similarly I've been able to take a lot of our Scottish experiences over and share them with my colleagues across Europe those things are enormously helpful to civic society and I echo a lot of what Alison has been saying here and a lot of what Helen has been saying in terms of social Europe as well and if we left the EU we'd have to reconstruct the ways of gaining those benefits of sharing experiences across this continent one way or the other thank you we've got a few minutes for any other comments and Derek thanks very much convener I'd just like to do a closing statement like Andy and I hope it's relevant to other people around the table the IET has no stated EU membership is important to say that whether it reaches one or not time will tell but I don't think I can overemphasise the importance of labour mobility in the European Union in the last couple of years I've worked with Portuguese, Spanish, Greek and German engineers here in Scotland they're here for a reason there's push and pull factors in that but my own son works in Spain as an IT engineer whether that would be possible for a different EU arrangement for the UK I simply don't know the EU can seem overly bureaucratic and the European Parliament often seems not as powerful as the commission and the relationship with the council of ministers is complex but the single market is a very good thing I think many of us would agree with that in relation to services which affects me as a professional engineer it's underdeveloped there's no doubt about that EU reforms needed but leaving is a very very different thing from reform thank you okay is there any other comments final statements now's your chance no we're continuing with this inquiry we have a number of roundtables over the next few weeks and we'll take no doubt this whole question forward to the dissolution of this Parliament in March next year but in the meantime can I thank you for your evidence this morning can I thank you for your written evidence and should you go away and think should I said that or should I have developed that argument please don't hesitate to get back in touch with us and let us know what your thoughts are if your organisations are getting involved in anything that you think maybe we can contribute to or learn from could you please let us know about that as well because we know that there's many things bubbling up and discussion forums and it would be quite keen to maybe get some insight into that too but just on behalf of the committee thank you all very very much I think we've had a very good discussion this morning a very diverse discussion but really it comes down to a few quite simple things that affect us all and I think you've managed to articulate that very well this morning so thank you very much indeed I'm going to a brief recess to allow our witnesses witnesses to leave the seats a suspend welcome back to the European and External Relations Committee moving on to agenda item 2 this morning which is our Brussels bulletin you have your Brussels bulletin in front of you is there any questions queries or clarifications Rod just just one second to find it I thought it was a wee bit ironic in the section of state of the energy union was referring to the UK's country report it said it said in addition to doubts over the UK's ability to deliver on renewables the country report also notes modest UK support for carbon capture and storage research programmes obviously that's been overtaken by last week's comments but I'm just going to flag that up and also I was quite interested in the next section on infrastructure with a comment on the upgrade to Scotland in Northern Ireland pipeline so the section on energy was interesting really just to highlight on page 9 I'm sure the employment skills and education the work life balance there's a consultation by the European Commission I'm not sure are we able to promote that in any shape or form or encourage people to sign up and also for page 10 equal opportunities just as you normally do convener just to ensure that other equal opportunities in particular catch up on what's recorded on this excellent I think we can look at options for raising awareness of the consultation and certainly if there's specific things in the Brussels bulletin that we think should be brought to the attention individual committees especially then we do that so I agree with your comments on the Equal Opportunities Committee Jamie On page 5 at the end of the thing about economy, energy and enterprise it says in parallel to the T-Tip negotiations the European Commission will start work together with other countries on setting up a permanent international investment court when it says with other countries presumably it means all the EU countries I mean I don't it's terribly because if it's in parallel with T-Tip it could be other countries wider than Europe so we should maybe get some more detail on that I'd like to see a bit more detail on that and what is actually the intentions of it and what the point of it is it's terribly it's like the rest of this thing it's very it's not what it used to be but we can get more detail on that specific topic anything else in the Brussels bulletin Willie Can you remember some meetings ago the desperate reports we had from the refugee crisis in Europe and I think we asked for an update to be kept informed on how that was progressing and we'll lose sight of it once it leaves this committee, is there any way we can get an update on the situation and the Mediterranean in particular and what's happening because there was quite a few desperate accounts from people around the table do you remember of the circumstances that people are finding themselves in and our hope was that the European Union itself would do more collectively to try and this committee did agree to write a number of levels of government we've had a response back from the Scottish Government we've had a response back from Hamza last week I think we're still awaiting responses we've got all the responses now so what we can do is put that on the agenda as an agenda item for a follow-on meeting great and just bring that back to the forefront okay Roddy I've read quite a lot mostly in tabloid papers it has to be said about EU discussions with Turkey notice is a reference to the summit on 29 November but I'm not sure the next bulletin clearly outlines what has actually been agreed between the EU and Turkey rather than relying on some fairly hysterical stuff in the tabloids I agree, I'm very interested in what what's the progress of such of the EU's relationship with Turkey I'd be very keen to hear about that Anything else? No No, happy to make sure the Brussels bulletin goes to our other committees with raising the profiles specifically on the examples that we've raised the ones that Roddy made equal opportunities and I would think the consultation should be the education committee should be made aware of that as well happy to do that okay, thank you very much and that concludes our meeting for today and our next meeting is in two weeks time on 17 December we'll see you all then thank you very much