 Yeah, Liz Cheney's tragic loss in Wyoming. This is stink tech American issues take two We are joined today by Stephanie Stull Dahlton regular contributor Cynthia Lee's and Claire regular contributor and Chuck Krumpter. We love to have him on the show. Hi. Hi, everybody Aloha No, so Liz Liz Cheney, you know, we were talking about one interesting rhetorical point before the show began And that is okay. She had an epiphany in and around January 6th and her Enlightenment happened right around that event the insurrection But for the four years prior She was a Conservative Republican she was voting with Trump one could say that she was a trooper So how does this affect things Stephanie? Does this change your view when you focus on that particular transition? well, she's such an ultra conservative herself and very and embedded Intellectually and in that in that way in that philosophy or in that in those politics and I think it took her a while to be as disturbed as she finally became and you know for To him to go to the impeachment, you know, so she must have been think to be able to impeach him She must to vote for his impeachment. She must have been thinking about it for a while So I'm sure I mean I don't think conservatives isn't that is part of their their You know persona is they move slowly and thoughtfully and deeply through issues So I think she probably has been working on this for a while I'm not trying to defend her but I just feel that she wouldn't do anything very You know knee-jerky So she's I would say she's been working on it for a while and was disturbed enough to finally take that stand that she did You know on American issues take one and take two we have been wrestling with the question of how do you draw people out of the cult? You know what makes them if anything what makes them come out of the cult and realize the reality of Trump And you know, I mean one one possibility which was suggested in the show yesterday was that if Trump got sick and past That would the cult would break up like like like a little balloon gone finished because it's personal It's just him nobody could do it like him None of the politicians on the on the horizon could do it like him But you know this suggests, you know the strange journey of Cheney suggested maybe it takes some real violence Some real extraordinary completely totally unprecedented outrage some real threatening attack on the democracy Right now faces to change people's minds You know that her journey. What does it teach us? Stephanie did You I heard you say my name Jay. I'm just Thinking that she's been under a lot of strain. I'm sure she herself has had cognitive dissonance for a while and probably Stepped up to resolving that tension intellectually and fighting out what her base was and And and what her ethics were so yeah, well, you know Cynthia I mean, I would suggest from Stephanie's remarked as roughly 60 70 million people in the country with cognitive dissonance How do we wean them off and what have we learned from the experience of Liz Cheney if anything? I'm gonna use a quote from her concession speech her non concession concession speech Right people who served President Trump loyally Testified that they all told him the election was not stolen or rigged and there was no massive fraud That's why President Trump and others invent excuses Pretexts for people not to watch the hearings at all But no citizen of this republic is a bystander All of us have an obligation to understand what actually happened We cannot abandon the truth. Sorry. I wrecked that last part We cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation Well, there's a great statement of it. I wonder how she was feeling and say 2018-19 before we got to the question of the stolen election, you know But by putting that aside for a moment Cynthia Do you have any reservations about her now when she says those magic words when she made that? You know that speech a couple days ago. It was powerful. We've all seen at least parts of it Any reservations about you know the the honesty of that speech the her intentions in the matter I cried To see that kind of integrity and courage And an intention because she's going forward. She's Can't remember the name of it now. Oh Shoot, you know, you know that she she Supported and applauded the reversal of Roe v. Wade, right? Just to give you one example of her right-wing You know conservatism. Oh, yes, and as Stephanie said she is an ultra Conservative and always has been she voted for Trump in 2020 That's how conservative she is and how many other conservatives though Tell their nose and voted with Trump so that they could get their conservative values forward now every other Republican but Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger are still holding their nose So that they can get what they want to me that means they are willing to sacrifice Their integrity to get what they want. I heard you. I heard you both say that she voted for Trump in in 2016 2020 also yeah, she voted in 2020 for him. So this revelation took place after the 2020 election Chuck, you know a lot of people are inspired by her And more and more people say I would I would vote for her for a president Despite her conservative leanings She can save our democracy. She is the hero. We've been waiting for the leader. We've been waiting for But also a lot of people who like her who like her Say they would not vote for her. Where do you stand on that? Well, I noticed Cynthia had her hand up. So I'm gonna defer Okay, Cynthia finish your thought please This is like what happens in front of me. I was putting my hand up and say I would I would support her and I might even vote for her So Chuck, I wasn't okay. I want to answer. I was just saying I'll vote for her. That's all. Sorry. All right, Chuck Thank you for being so courteous and Givalrous anyway So what's your answer I Mean first of all if you're going to vote for someone that you believe It's going to stand up for the values And the principles and the realities that this country needs to adopt to uphold And to enact to move forward It's not going to be people like Liz Cheney On this one issue. That's fine I give her a lot of credit for having the courage to stand up for that knowing that doing so as a Wyoming Congressperson that was probably going to cost her her seat Kanzinger Similarly others similarly there was just an analysis out of 12 primary elections eight of which Trump election deniers one even against some incumbents and Four of which they lost So it's not exclusive Trump control and influence in the party is still overwhelming But it's overwhelming because of the fear he inspires and the people who dare to stand up against it And one of the things that's interesting is yesterday Quote was presented And I don't recall whether was in the Washington Post for the New York Times by a tweet by a former Bush administration leader Who basically said that the Republicans are the most inimical force Intentionally dangerous and destructive force to American democracy that he has seen in his lifetime And then the former director of the CIA from those times join him in endorsing that sentiment So we don't have a deliberative dialogue. We don't have anything reflecting a democracy We have a battle for minority control through whatever means will achieve it whether constitutional Legally appropriate or simply manipulatable by power. That's all we got Okay, that's been a nice show with you guys I've enjoyed every minute of it I Stephanie you know so so listening is up there clearly. I mean we agree that she's a hero. She's courageous We may or may not vote for her if they're that opportunity ever arose But my question to you is is is she? Encouraging others to do the same Is her courage? Viral could it be viral or any other, you know representatives in Congress Likely to to catch what she has and to be Kate courageous the way she is or is this all kind of You know a tree falling in the woods Yeah, Jay, this is a huge question you've rocked me actually with your very first opening question She's she's fallen into the same category as all the others. Okay like like pants pants is not a totally heroic because he could have said something on December the 6th and Many many people could have said things on November the 6th and ahead of time when things were looking Questionable and none of these people did not no one let it out of the bag so that that there would be a reasonable opportunity to respond and Take care of business, but so so she's actually Falling into that category that I think she probably accuses others of her But you know can considers others have done wrong about and I hadn't thought that she was there just with them So we're actually down to nobody Who rang the bell? Nobody pushed the fire alarm? Nobody nobody got this bring her out. Nobody closed the fire door, you know Nothing happened until it was in progress and in and and it was the exigent moment for for pence so You're really raising a lot of questions. I think that no, I probably would not vote for her You know for president because She is not she's so conservative So I don't think that I would go there would I go there to flee Trump again. I don't know I mean, it's that it's that difficult now. It's a hard question if you had Trump and Cheney And you know every vote counts in some way, you know, it's you you don't want to abstain The one to vote you want to make yourself heard Yeah, because they that'd be their Republican primary and I don't have to vote in the Republican No, well that we're gonna get to that we're gonna get to that with Cynthia You know why in the world would Liz Cheney run on the Republican ticket for president? 2024 she you know that is that's against everything. She said it's against all her recently espoused principles So my question to you is how should she handle the 2024? She did In you know imply that she might consider She said she might consider running in 2024 and indeed she has a lot of people who are sending her money She got millions in the war chest. She has a lot of people who think she walks on water right now including a lot of Democrats But what is her best move in terms of running for president that she could you could try the Republican ticket and get bashed again? She could go independent And and you know, the Republicans probably won't follow her, but at least she will have a voice till the end, right? She could form a new party Call it the Cheney party or something And she could try to garner her support there. What's her best move in terms of? You know expressing her views forget about whether she might win against a strong Republican candidate like Trump What's her best way to continue to to have the platform to have a pulpit? Well, she's starting a program and I can't remember the name of it I wish I could still like I even tried to look it up and couldn't come up with it again She's going to start a group that is going to be solely Focused and this she has talked about and she did name it and everything That's going to be solely focused on getting rid of Donald Trump calling out his lies and exposing him for who he is So that is going to give her a pulpit for the next two years No problem and depending on what kind of you know Response she gets in that process. I think that'll make her decisions going forward but she could easily start another party and and get every single Republican that isn't a Trump looking on her side and really Separate them out or she could run as a Republican and if she loses then she could go over to the independence now and my example of that is when and when Clinton and Bernie Sanders were both Going for the Democratic Primary right and Hillary Clinton won I think that Bernie Sanders sort of won as an run as an independent and I believe a hundred percent He would have won he was Profoundly popular and neither Trump or Clinton were so in that case I think it would have been successful in this case I think it might work again. She wants to maybe undermine him by running against him the only problem with that is don't they have to sign some sort of something when they Get involved in the debates and all the different things and they could be excluded from all the main National debates and all the other stuff the fundraising and everything else if they don't sign that paper that says That they're not going to go off to another party and run against the person if they lose. I Don't know exactly how all that Legality works, but I think over these next two years what we're going to see is her exploring every avenue to get there To completely get rid of Trump completely and then DeSantis Will keep all the Trumpers and hopefully the rest of the normal thinking Republicans will vote for her And I have said for a long long time ever since they came out against the January 6th Insurrection that that's the Republican dream team is Liz Cheney for president and Adam Kinzinger for vice president Yeah, Chuck. So he would talk to you about the dream team No, hey, what about the Democrats that we've forgotten about them I mean if we have a dream team going this a dream team that Democrats might vote for some of them have already said They would This is this is not necessarily a good thing for the Democrats Or for Roe v. Wade or for all of those issues where the Republicans including these guys, you know We take positions that you and I don't like What effect has all of this got on the ability of the Democrats to feel the good ticket and win in 2024 then their prospects are not that good anyway, but what is this? What effect does this have on them? It's a great question Jay And I think the thing that's unfortunate is we don't have any idea of what the Democratic response and strategy are at this point to produce cathartic courageous high character leaders as candidates Are there people within their ranks? There may be but they should have been identifying cultivating and Putting those people forward well before this Well, that's true and you could make the argument that a lot of this is going to shake out in November And in case you haven't you haven't been counting November is like three months away There's not a lot of time left for the Democrats to make a move You know Biden has not really said whether he will run, but I think the consensus is he's too old And he hasn't put his arm around the shoulder of any other prospects and You know one could say there may be no other prospects that make you it makes your blood run faster So here we are in you know a situation where the Democrats are disorganized They haven't put anybody forward and the Republicans are You know showing leadership Through Liz Cheney they're showing leadership It's really bizarre Stephanie how bizarre is it and how much concern do you have about? The fact that the Democrats right now are not on a track. We even have a chance at winning 2024 Oh, I think there's a tremendous chance. I certainly do. I mean we've got Gavin Newsom we've got Liz Warren, we've got Buddha judge We have got Liz Warren. You say I love I know she's want some yes But you know if the economy is still screwed up and we're still inflation, you know I mean she's got the money game under hand I mean if you want to get some confidence think there you think there are possibilities out there But what about the timing, you know the timing because you don't you think okay? That that the emergence of a ticket a Democratic ticket a clear 2024 ticket Should be happening now, you know these days in the US of a You know campaigns from presidents start a long time in advance you have Gavin's doing Amy Klobuchar is on the way I mean they're not they're polite and not running up in Biden's face with their with their sticking signs You know, but come on. They're out there out there on the bit, you know They're they're out there waiting for their chance Is there a parallel to lose Cheney on the Democratic side? Well, they all are because all of them have as much Courage all of them have as much courage and they have ethical Standards is there a single parallel? Yeah, I think Amy Klobuchar could take her on I no problem I think Gavin Newsom could too and Buddha judges is really pretty interesting and has such a great Thinking brain. He's but anyway, he he may not be in position for it. I agree maybe with him He's not charging up too much out of the sec assistant secretary for Transportation your answer to the same question. What does it look like for the Democrats? Have they got their act together? Is it too soon too late? You know, do do they have a single possibility that that parallels Liz Cheney? I think Elizabeth Warren does I think that she is that same level of Calling a spade a spade without any regard to how it's going to affect her candidacy or anything else She's all about calling the truth the truth and making plans. She's got plenty, right? Plenty she's got a plan for everything long before we even get there. So I Think that's an important person. Are you being realistic because she lost on that kind of thing last time around? Yeah, she lost and and it was the Democrats who didn't care for her position Well, I don't know as she has a pathway to win, but I think she's that same level of Integrity and I would trust her to not just be a politician, you know and Bend under who would you trust more? Liz Cheney Versus Elizabeth Warren I Think this chain would win but I would like Elizabeth Warren, of course because I'm a Democrat and I believe in liberal things and you know Bodily autonomy for women is mainly It's impossible, you know to actually speculate and make make expectation on this But Chuck, I mean, you know, I want to ask you how wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait Cynthia has another point wait Now I really am raising my hand Wait wait because I want to say one thing that always gets it seems I'm Sort of left under the rug with all this other hubbub going on all over the country Biden is doing a killer job If you look at the kind of stuff that has already been signed into law since he took office It's remarkable. It is very remarkable And it seems to me they have enough money to start putting ads on the TV every five minutes So people know about it because it's getting shoved under the rug So can I say I think Cynthia's right and that we've got Biden's doing very well I think he can beat Trump as the polls have shown that so he can beat anybody that comes up against him from the other side But and I don't think Liz Cheney can make president. I think she's got a lot of Leadership still to bring to the politics of America, but I don't think she can make president She's short Sorry, Jack Returned I had to jump all over Cynthia. She got me going Reality well, what I would like to cover here in the remaining time is you know, what effect has the Liz Cheney Experienced the phenomenon have on the whole enchilada And on the investigations on Trump on his credibility, you know to the base On the shape of the Republican Party I think we we've kind of come to the conclusion that it hasn't had that much effect But what effect does it have on the Democratic Party? What effect will it have, you know three months from now? Is she such a phenomenon? And you know, this is a real question. Is she such a phenomenon that she's going to change history? Well one clear effect is She's brought home to the Republican Party leadership, especially Mitch McConnell Don't blow a chance to load up a bipartisan committee with a bunch of people who can throw monkey wrenches into their process They blew that chance and when it came in and the presentation of the January 6th hearing Which is when on all of those presenters all of those speakers were Trump administration people were far right wing people They were not loading it loading it with a political dog and pony show from the left The second thing is while she was doing that I think Cynthia and Stephanie are exactly right That lowered the tension Enough over in the Senate for Schumer to do what has been an extraordinary job of negotiating Let me remind you that the Republicans to the man and woman voted against all of that Biden legislation The only way it passed is through Joe Mankin and Kristen Sinema mentioned reconciliation And reconciliation. I mean all I'm saying is that this was not A a clear and resounding win. This was a deaf maneuver, which is actually not likely to happen again And now the question is can Schumer manage to do that with judicial appointments For the rest of Biden's two years If we know the answer That's going to be a deaf shot. Yeah, it's okay. I mean but putting that aside for a moment and going to the question of Luce Cheney for a moment you know November will will will will be a Republicans landslide arguably And the house will change And the house leadership will change And Luce Cheney will be out of a job that committee Will be out of a job whether it has a report on the shelf or not Uh and their investigation and all the material that comes out in the investigation Will be shelved in a very dark corner of the shelf And there won't be another investigation. I promise you that All right, so all the momentum that Luce Cheney has achieved on that committee and it is impressive Will I don't know what'll happen to it In fact is the trump has been resilient been the teflon don That they reserved that for mafia boss in in brooklyn, by the way He's the teflon don he's gotten away with two impeachments. He's he's gotten away so far with a lot of possible indictments And he has he has turned the whole thing about the subpoena upside down And now the press is not judging him. It's judging the fbi Why Why they say it again? Why so, you know, he's he's really good. He's teflon You think do you think the momentum that she has created will continue After november november this year um Jay I just want to say you guys as the group are really too much go ahead stephanie Well, I what I am saying that what I know now Is one of the the principles of the republican party that what liss cheney did was the biggest sin So the sin is not, you know, not being ethical or abiding by the values or the Or the norms it is not stepping stepping out of place You have to stay in place with the group and the herd There's no leaving the herd without Dire consequences and that's what what she's got So that that principle, which I didn't understand that that that was what republicans did But that's what they do and that's why we got two two impeachments Ineffective and and all the rest combined with trump acting out the nixon vice president ag ag new if you recall him and rachel Matto's bag man, which was very successful and very informative all of this Newt gingrich stuff is what already ag new was doing which is turn it around and put it on somebody else Have no shame keep on pushing leave no stone unturned no matter what like with trump is so is ecstatic over having another week delay On the the decision about what's going to happen to the affidavit And it's totally Minimal, but he understands that those are the ways of going of of strategically Assaulting this this country's best interests which are to get him But he knows how to do that. So I think the combination of the republican herd and trump's ag newism Uh and that new way of coming up against uh misdeeds miscreants and misdeeds and fighting institutions and all of Of what they're trying to do is what is the name of the game? You can take it all down And protect yourself. It's a new strategy a mega strategy And you know going going back to this question of what happens after november it leaves It leaves the prosecution on a federal level in the hands of merrick garland Merrick garland without the house Investigative committee merrick garland really essentially without the tenant And the question I put to you chuck is it is merrick garland going to be able to continue this? You know this uh investigative Initiative against trump or will he be able to defer all of it? I remember at the end of the day if he can get any kind of traction Legally, uh supreme court will probably rule in his favor. You know, I mean trump So how do you see all these investigations? proceeding Once the republicans have taken over the house And garland's made it very clear that he intends to continue in his words without fear or favor Regardless of what happens in the november midterm elections He's taken the responsibility. He's been given and you gotta remember This is a guy who should be sitting on the supreme court who should have been the vote to prevent the overturning of roe v. Wade And a lot of stuff that's coming down the pike in this coming term and the term beyond that so The fight will continue It's going to devolve to different people than the house committee But it doesn't mean it's over And biden's leadership Will no doubt continues to support it. He can't not support The question is what additional new leadership, whether it's a nuisome quarry booker schumer shift Buttigieg, whoever Can they begin to put forward? It's going to gain sufficient leverage with voters To be able to offer good prospects in 2024 That's It's so Cynthia, let me ask you and we have to go around for the for the final statements now But I I want to frame this as a question for you too Uh, so, you know, we've talked about uh, Liz chainy and uh, how she might run for president Or at least have a a pulpit for that Um, but starting pretty soon. She's going to be without her seat in the house And and that may be early in terms of the process toward present to the presidential election What can she do somebody suggested the other day that He could go around the country and give speeches Uh, she could raise money He could join in a discussion of exactly what merit garland is is investigating, you know, she has the goods already She has a thousand A thousand transcripts of a thousand interviews already So what can she do to keep keep the flame alive before we get to a presidential campaign? I remembered the name of her new group Sorry, didn't took me this long Hack watch, which is a terrible name. I hate the name. That's why it's that's why I finally could go back and get it um hack watch I'm pretty sure and don't No, don't hold me to it because I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's what it was. It's a terrible name I'm hoping she's going to change the name, but that's what it's for That's what she's going to be doing In and that's going to be the point of this group is to go around the country you know fundraising and um and Would you pay money would you pay money to sear? No, because I'm on my television and watch it. So no, um You know, I do want to add that when shut said adam ship. I forgot about adam ship I would he would be one that could be up there on that top tier I think wait. I I would put him above um p bootage edge in a minute Over over those That he's not well received At all. Hey Stephanie Last last comments, but let me ask uh, we've talked about this possibility before Suppose Joe Biden took a couple of new people Around around him in the oval office, you know Staffers and they happen to be some of the people you've listed You know, he offers a job for example to Gavin Newsom or Amy Klobuchar and brings them in and he appears with them He lets them speak for him Let's them speak for the executive branch and all that and he makes it somewhat clear that he considers them successors Because he really doesn't consider himself a a successor Would that work? But also, um, you're a summary of this discussion. You have closing remarks Oh Well, I don't think that would do anybody any good at all. I mean these people like you say they've got to be out there Uh on their own stump Making their own things happen that that galvanized the nation take take attention away from Florida and DeSantis and And the and the other idiocy that's going on So Gavin Newsom has already done that A couple of times, okay, and um, they're going to be of course a bulwark against all the abortion stuff So, I mean california is what the biggest almost I mean, so he's got a lot to work with to make to get himself some attention Which I would think he's thinking to do more of I mean when he can make comments to DeSantis or to florida like hey come on out here to california because we've got it, right? And he competing with florida for doing these things so Not only he but others if Amy Klobuchar's got the grit that it seems like she has and the ambition You know, she'll start doing stuff too. I don't think biden's cape on them will help at all Biden is is phenomenal and i'm behind him a thousand percent and he's doing even more than ever. I expected Against just and uh, and you know incalculable Opposition and that is only getting worse by the day as all of them learn how to do all this new nasty thing better But um, no, I think uh That somebody else needs to take the con as they say in sailing and um And biden needs to get credit for what he's doing and go on But I think we'll see that in the next two years and and with your point What a great point you made jay. It is it is merit garland That that's the only thing the democrats have going for them because like as you say as we go forward after this next election All everything stops. It's over what isn't done is over and all we do is is hope that he will get that report out and what happened to the report of um on on the first report that the first You know ag just killed it bar just killed the um that that report Okay, we got we got to move on to Okay, so this the only hope we have is merit garland. Let's go merit Chuck you're you're a closing message to everybody. Uh, you can frame it around whether the democracy is more or less likely to survive now Well rather than that Want to bring up a name we haven't mentioned but who does deserve a lot of respect She's done tremendous work for democrats stacey abrams And Imagine biden firing kufa nari who's not cooperating with maryland garland merit garland and the investigation And replacing him with stacey abrams Yes, that's a really interesting integration of all we've been talking about Like that I power All right. Well, I mean, it's not only it's not only the guy at homeland security It's a number of trumpers that has somehow remained in government. They'd be cleaned out Here we are at the end of our discussion Cynthia Sinclair Stephanie stole dalton and uh, chuck cumpton. Thank you very much all of us for joining us on American American issues take two. I hope we can do this again soon Thank you so much for watching think tech hawaii If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on youtube and the follow button on vimeo You can also follow us on facebook instagram twitter and linked in and donate to us at thinktech hawaii dot com Mahalo