 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. Today we have with us Francine Maestrum with the so global social justice and of course a long-term association associated with the World Social Forum. Absolutely. Francine, Europe is presenting a very complex picture to most of us. You see, it seems to us that the European Union project is really running out of steam and there are irreconcilable differences at the heart of Europe. A political union is not there but there's a monetary union. What is going to happen to the new set of elections which are taking place and how do you see, you have elections now in Holland, you have elections in France, you will also have elections in Germany. So how do you see the scenario panning out with respect to European Union? Do you think European Union will survive these elections? Good question. I wish I could look into the future and the situation is very risky. It is dangerous because as you know, social democracy is running out of steam as well. The radical left in all these countries is rather divided. So people go to the extreme right and maybe I can give a very simple explanation for this because people need protection and people at this moment because of the European Union, because of globalization feel this protected. So there are only two ways to offer protection. One is with social and economic rights, with welfare states, but the other is with closed borders, with stopping migration, with the military, with police and that is what the extreme right is offering. So people go for that protection because the other protection is failing and so in Holland, as well as in France, as well as in Germany, as in other countries, there is a real threat of the extreme right. So all we can do is hope that some other protection will be offered and that people will realize that these closed borders and this very narrow nationalism cannot be a long-term solution. Well, the economic part of the nationalism is protect my jobs, otherwise migration will take, migrants will come and take the jobs away, but that's not the major issue. Major issue is really that the economies are not growing. The financial crisis of 2008 still is there and the German banks have imposed, essentially Germany has imposed extremely deflationary policy in Europe by which there is really no hope of at least a large number of countries in Europe recovering from their crisis. There is no chance of any solution as long as these austerity politics are going on. No chance, not. So what we can hope, it's a small hope, but what we should hope is that at least some social democratic leaders may come into power and that they stop and change these austerity policies. But let us be clear as well, there are no jobs, it is said. But if you look at the needs, there are so many needs unfulfilled that there are jobs for all, that is one. And secondly, if we can do all the work that needs to be done with less hours of work, we should reduce the working time and share the work. Six hours a day, six hours a day, five days a week, four days a week. What you have there in Sweden and what has given good results. So what you're saying is it's really again a question of redistribution, but redistribution differently. And that's something which is the only way then to produce jobs and so on. What we should not forget as well is that with the high levels of inequality today, well Europe is not that bad compared to the rest of the world, but yet there are high levels of inequality that make democracy impossible. And what has happened with 30 years of neoliberalism and that project is also at its limits. It cannot go on as it has been going on. So the only way if you do not want to turn to more social policies and to more progressive policies is repression, is criminalization of social movements. And that is what is happening now with the arrival of these right-wing and extreme right-wing forces. Neoliberalism needs this because it has blocked itself. So that was the argument that it wants a smaller state except for the repressive arm of the state. We should start with social policies because that is what gives people trust, what gives people confidence, confidence in themselves and confidence in others. So when you mean social policies such as? Economic and social rights, universal rights for all. Because this is the way that you can give people jobs, give people value, value the work that they are doing, all of them, men and women, whatever work, kind of work or kind of labor they are doing. But if people have confidence in themselves, have confidence in the future, have confidence in their politics, then I think we can go ahead. And it's a very old saying. I think it's the constitution of the International Labor Organization. You cannot have peace without social justice. And that is why, well, my organization is working at social justice because I think this is really a condition for people to work together and for building trust in others. Well, you know, at the moment we have very high levels of youth unemployment for instance in Greece, Spain and also possibly in the other countries. So you think that is, instead of what is now being proposed, basic income, do you think that we should really propose other measures? Absolutely. Basic income is no solution. Basic income is a liberal solution for the individual and for people who do not trust the state to organize redistribution. So no, I'm absolutely against basic income. I am for minimum guaranteed income for people, but you also should give people work. Absolutely. And you have to organize, people have to organize themselves, but you should organize in such a way that the interdependence between people becomes clear, that people can trust the state and can trust the others. And I think that in that way, so that people are not afraid anymore. Tomorrow maybe I will be ill and I cannot go to work. Tomorrow my child will not be able to go to school. Tomorrow I will have no land to work on. All these basic needs, we all have the same needs. These needs should be fulfilled. And if you say there is very huge youth unemployment, yes, there is. But again, look at the needs that there are. And it's only because of austerity policies that these needs cannot be fulfilled. But are there political organizations raising these issues in the elections that you're coming that are under? There are. Well, I guess again, the problems are the same all over the world. Media are very, very. Neoliberal. Neoliberal and restricted in what they can do. The moment you mentioned a real social protection, or even going beyond social protection, we work on social comments. They say, okay, that's the left. We do not talk about that. And you're marginalized. Whereas from that side, new ideas are coming up. And I think there are very interesting new concepts that we can work with. But we will have to rethink a lot of our concepts and a lot of our ideas so that we can really make a very interesting and attractive offer for people. Yes, but you know, you have three elections now taking place. We were talking Holland, France, Germany. Are these issues on the anvil? Or is it between essentially the far right and the neoliberal, but relatively maybe a little more liberal parties, not to say the conservative neoliberal, but liberal neoliberal forces? What is now social democracy in France and Germany? I'll tell you, a social democratic candidate in France, he is proposing a basic income. And that is why he has won the primaries. So this is really bad. This is really bad. The radical left in France is proposing real social protection. Maybe a bit too conservative as well, but at least social rights. So, okay, in Holland, oh dear, you're now in Holland, they have officially a participation society. And that means it is based on the participation of citizens. We call this in Europe social innovation. And it means that the state withdraws. There is no welfare state in Holland anymore. People organize themselves to take care of older people, to take care of children, and you also pay for it. So it is a real abandonment of the state. The state has withdrawn and citizens doing themselves. And they call this participation, which is of course not the real participation that we want, because this is a very dangerous development. It can go in all directions. What will happen and how this will... There is one advantage of this basic income discussion, and that is that we know that it is not affordable, unless you abandon the welfare state. And that they will never accept in France. So there will never be a basic income in France, because then you have to abandon healthcare, which liberals want of course. They are proposing and promoting a basic income so that they can privatize healthcare, so that they can privatize the pensions, so that they can privatize everything. So we have to take care of that. But the interesting thing in France is that the neoliberal candidate, candidate of the right, he won the primaries with the promise of dismissing a huge amount of civil servants, and of abandoning almost all of the welfare state. Now for the right it is okay, but now that he is a candidate he knows he cannot do this, because his extreme right competitor, she is promoting social rights. Extreme right has always done for nationals. So now he's also, well okay, no, no, some social right, no, no, we keep healthcare. But the point of the welfare state is really at the heart of all political debates in Europe at this moment. And this is something we should take note of and we should prepare for and come with our own ideas for a better welfare state, less bureaucratic, more democratic, more real participatory. Again I think that there's some future in that. It's interesting what you said that Le Pen is essentially sounding and on the issue of welfare better than for instance the candidates of the right. So the far right of this issue seems to be offering more protection for the poor. Then the not so far right is proposing. It's interesting, dichotomy if you will. Thank you Fransen. We'll catch up with you once this election, the cycle of elections are over and take stock of what happens, because I need these three elections are going to be quite crucial in the way the European Union is going to shape up in the future. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.