 Let's talk immigration. What is it? And I'm seeing it starts at 60. Can I start earlier? Does it really have to start at 60? No, look, I think a immigration is a play on words between immigration and sort of halfway based immigration. So it means abuse. Welcome to the Private Property Podcast right here on our Private Property Facebook page. It's 7pm and it's a weekday. So that means we are talking everything property. We're talking infesting, buying, selling. We're talking about how to manage your property portfolio and possibly increase it. And if you're looking to get into the market, how to do that, making sure that you do it right and maximizing it to the core. So if you are joining us for the first time, thank you so much for joining us. And for those joining us on the Twitter Spaces, thank you so much to you as well. Hopefully you stay to the end of the conversation and you enjoy the conversation tonight. So if you're a regular, drop those green hearts and make sure you mark the register. This is also the time to send that link to everybody or anybody you think is definitely going to enjoy the conversation and probably needs the information that we're talking about tonight. So as usual, I have a guest who is going to give us amazing insights about a not very popular topic. Tonight we're talking semi-gration after 60. And where most of us South African retirees are going, where are they headed? Tonight I'm joined by Gus van der Speck, who is the CEO at Aview Properties. Gus, good evening and thank you for joining us. Thank you very much to me. Thank you for having me on the show. It's always great to be here and look forward to hopefully living up to your expectations there. No, definitely. Let's talk semi-gration. I haven't heard the word. It's not really popular and it seems to be happening because this is something that we are seeing happening in the property industry. Let's talk semi-gration. What is it? And I'm seeing it starts at 60. Can I start earlier? Does it really have to start at 60? No, look, I think semi-gration is a play on words between immigration and sort of halfway of the semi-gration. So it means a move within your country to a different area to live in. And I suppose the big sort of semi-gration event that has happened in probably the last 10 to 15 years in South Africa is the semi-gration of people sort of moving towards coastal towns, moving from Haoting and other places sort of in the central area of the country and moving to either sort of the Western Cape or northern Natal. That's been sort of the two most popular trends over the last few years. So when people talk about semi-gration, they talk about getting out of sort of the big smoke of Johannesburg maybe and moving down to a coastal town like Cape Town or Durban, you know, Hamanus. There's sort of all sorts of nodes that people move down to. And I think this is just people looking for a lifestyle choice or lifestyle living in a different type of place. Sure. And would you say that with the movements that we've been having in the property industry in terms of COVID-19 happening, the remote working and the moving whether into the cities or other cities has helped or has sparked up semi-gration? So look, yeah, I think obviously semi-gration has been driven, you know, in the past maybe more, you know, people making the choice between Johannesburg and Cape Town, for example, as a lifestyle decision, maybe sort of the because the Western Cape's been seen to be a better run and, you know, a robot's work and service delivery, that sort of thing is better. People have seen the perceived sort of benefit to living in places like Cape Town, for example. But I think semi-gration is something bigger than that. It's been happening sort of all over. There's definitely a move up to places like Belito, that sort of thing up in, you know, North of Durban. And then also maybe a little bit more locally, you know, people moving from Johannesburg to Clarence, you know, for example, you know, it features a very nice lifestyle and especially as people have been able to move away from being office-bound like they were before, they can now live in, they call them Zoom Towns, which is basically a town where you can log in, it's got good internet, but you're living a lifestyle-based choice rather than an economic need to be in a place. So semi-gration is quite a loose term for what people are doing sort of nationally moving around. But there are some very key trends of places where people are moving for probably the more sort of lifestyle type decisions and maybe a perception that some cities are better run than others and that sort of thing. We specifically want to zoom into retiring people or retired people, people around the ages of 60 and plus. So when they're moving from like the cities or moving from even South Africa and moving internationally, are we seeing a specific spike in them moving into specifically homes or not necessarily homes because I know now they're called like retirement developments and retirement villages and it's not like homes, you know, back in the day you used to be called old age homes and they changed more to retirement development and nowadays we refer to them as lifestyle developments for over 65s or over 60s or that sort of thing. But just to go back to your sort of immigration is very different from semi-gration, where immigration is where people move to go overseas for example to live in Australia, the UK, that sort of thing where semi-gration is very local. But the trends of where people are going, you know, obviously there's a lot of, we were talking earlier about sort of the brachette and where people are moving sort of internationally is a very different choice from the local move. The international move we've sort of found is a lot more younger people that are looking to, you know, maybe put down roots somewhere else. I think there's a lot of opportunity in the world you know, for people that come out of university or they're young professionals before they're married with children to make a sort of an international move somewhere. And a lot of people I know that have done that have gone and come back. So I don't know if you still counted as immigration then, but it's sort of seen what the rest of the world is like. Whereas locally we're talking about semi-gration is a decision that people make to live somewhere else for very specific lifestyle reasons. And I think that really is kind of a more of a long-term focal sort of decision that families make and certainly older people retirees are making. You know, there's a look at where they want to spend sort of the good years of their lives. And I think that that decision is often influenced by being in maybe a coastal town or being somewhere that's a little bit safer or living near family that have that have immigrated, you know. So those drivers are there. I think obviously the economic hub of somewhere like Houtang draws people in with jobs and work experience, but as soon as they are able to make a decision of living maybe a bit more independently away from their jobs, then they decide to make more of a lifestyle based decision and in where they're going to end up living. Sure. So you're the CEO at a view properties. Talk to us about some of the trends that you guys have seen and maybe some of the specialities that you guys offer to people who would like to either semi-grade or retire people who would like to then move into the coastals or even move internationally. What are some of the things that the trends that you guys have seen and some of the specialities that you guys offer? So look, we are very much a specific offering and in no way could I comment too with too much authority on sort of international immigration trends, but certainly in this immigration area we've got a development in Cape Town. It came all the way called within the state. It's a retirement or lifestyle state for over 65s and this is very much a product that's aimed at that market of people who are looking for a central place where they can live and socialize in a sort of contained environment. It's an environment that provides safety, security. The food is very much a kind of restaurant to have food and then obviously the medical side of things where they would carry is and that sort of thing to look after them. So the difference between a block of flats for example and a retirement development is that one's got a medical sort of side to it where you get care and specifically catered for an ageing sort of population of residents, whereas a block of flats is just a sectional type of block of flats where anyone can live and it's managed by a body corporate whereas a retirement development is centrally managed by a developer and they look after the needs of the people that are living there going forward. So the trends that we're seeing in this are very much based around people following their children, especially you're getting sort of early 70s and we've seen a number of our clients, their kids are living in Cape Town and they then semi-grape down to the Western Cape and buy a property with them and their kids live down the road and there's a whole sort of family unit that gets built and put together there. But we're seeing a lot of this also from sort of seems like everyone's moving away from housing but I don't think that's the case. It's a lot of people make their wealth or they get the work experience that allows them to travel somewhere else and then they leave but housing is a very much an economic hub that people are drawn to for work but when people do have the opportunity to move away sometimes they make that decision to go to the places and even places like White River which are I think in Pumbulanga, Clarence are very popular areas. People are going to live down in Platt and Arsenal and obviously Kenton and Seas I think half the population is over 65 so it's a town where people feel comfortable to go and spend their sort of golden years. So the movement is very much based around that lifestyle decision but what we find a lot of it is to do with family and being near their sort of loved ones and their loved ones have moved to Kenton or Clarence or wherever then they often follow them and I think that drives a lot of this sort of this immigration over 65s. We find that not a lot of people over 65 want to immigrate because firstly you know if their family is living in South Africa it's a very difficult decision to make and some people have been living overseas for you know sort of half year, half there, whatever that may be and they might decide to maybe start spending a bit more time there but I think certainly as people do get a bit older they decide to sort of make South Africa their base and spend a lot more time there so even people with the means who you can't afford to immigrate and there's not many of them nowadays then they still make the decision to stay here because you know we live in a beautiful country, we've got amazing people, this you know obviously everywhere's got their problems but why would you want to leave a place like this? I think we've not seen that immigration pool in over 65s as much as we see it in the younger people. Sure, no definitely. I'm just going to take the poll quickly and thank you so much to everybody who participated in the poll today. We asked you a question and says if you're reaching your 60s and you're planning to retire where would you like to stay? And I think for the conversation we're having tonight is going to be very very good because the first one on the list says someone says Western Cape, I want to be closer to the beach, the second one says Eastern Cape because of the temperature and the climate and someone said internationally, I don't want to retire in South Africa. I really really wonder why. Swanky Citole says Eastern Cape, Western Cape brother by the beach with the view and the breeze every single morning. Gabza Montong says internationally, I don't want to retire in South Africa, maybe Saudi Arabia. Okay, that is a quite an interesting choice. I think if I were to to retire, I would probably still stay in South Africa because of you know the culture we have here is beautiful, but if I was to throw this question to you and not being biased now, where would you go if you were to retire? Yeah, look I mean I'm a Durban boy originally so you know I grew up near the sea, but I've always learned the Cape and so I would have to probably choose and I know I'm going to sound biased, but I choose Cape time to retire to, it's a beautiful city. I love living here, there's so much to do, it's really a really fantastic place to live and every day I mean the beauty and the natural sort of beauty around you is phenomenal. So as much as I love the rest of the country, I just if I had to choose somewhere to spend you know most of my time it would be here. Obviously internationally is a different option, a different choice, I mean I lived in London for 10 years and I really enjoyed it, but you know when people say they want to retire somewhere else, often they haven't been somewhere else and I've been around the world, I've seen you know a few places and South Africa is pretty amazing. Sure, no really I see, I see I would definitely do the same. Let's talk about when this movement happens or this immigration happens, do you see a movement of people going into these or moving from one city to another and they are buying the property or they are merely just renting it because it may just be short-term leases or how does it operate? Do you find that there are there's more purchases than rentals and how does it work for you guys? Look, I mean so we sell our properties on a life rack which is a very unique and different sales, so it's not actually even sales, it's a learn between two people but South Africans like to earn their property, it's something that is instilled in all of us you know from I don't know how and when but renting a house is not the first choice for most people, so we don't see a lot of rental bills sort of happening but yeah I mean the purchase of property is something that's very ingrained in massism of people, so yeah I would say not so much rental especially the sort of security of tenure is that you only have the right to live in that place for as long as the lease, so people worry about what happens at the end of the lease or where am I going to go next and you know you could imagine at 65 those kind of concerns become quite overwhelming, so people like to know that they've got a place to live and I suppose in many ways a life rack agreement is a form of long rental contract, so you know if we look at it from that sort of sense you know probably the best of both worlds you've got the security of tenure for taking yourself forward in a contract but you don't have the responsibility of earning the property, so maybe that's to answer my question in a roundabout way, maybe that's the future of where the 65 market is a type of rental contract where you don't have encumbrances like transfer GD and VAT and that sort of thing, it's a very different type of form of tenure property. Yes no definitely definitely and thank you so much for for giving us this information because this may just be someone's way of being happy and you know opening that that kind of happiness and really enjoying their retirement, thank you so much for joining us tonight Ghasan really really appreciate you sharing this information with us thank you very much to me thank you all day thanks to me have a good evening here so thanks just so much cheers and just like that we reached the end of our of tonight's episode where we are talking semi migration for those who are above 60 years old people are moving you know people are moving life is moving and as Ghas said make sure that you are happy that is the most important thing so if you want to be inland if you want to be close to the coast make sure that you you enjoy that retirement because it might it you've been working your whole life so now this is the time for you to kick back those shoes and relax thank you so much for joining us tonight and if you are one of those people who are semi migrating do remember that you can still catch us from anywhere you are in the world right here every weeknight 7 p.m. on the private property podcast have a good evening