 Okay. Good morning everyone, and can I welcome you to the 23rd meeting of 2018 of the Social Security Committee? Can I remind everyone present to sort of mobile phones, or other devices, get them to silent mode please, so that we don't disrupt the meeting? We have Gordon Lindhurst here today, attending in place of Jeremy Balfour, who sent his apologies. Welcome again to Gordon. Under Deputy Gunious General Paul McNeill, unfortunately, can't make it this morning, and she sends her apologies. Rwy'n mwyfodd neiddoch yn ystod gyda'r gwaith. Mae'r gwaith bai'r gwaith a'r recordediaeth gyda'r gwaith. Felly, rwy'n mwyfodd neiddoch yn gyfraith a'r recordiaeth. Mae'r gwaith i fyng o fiddoriaeth ar gyfer fan hyn, ac rwy'n mwyfodd neiddoch yn gweld eich gwaith. Rydym yn ei gwaith i'r gwaith i fyng o y gwaith i fyng ar ddiadau'r gwaith ond we might wish to feed back as part of that consultation. I have got a list of witnesses we have here this morning, but rather we read out everyone's names. Why don't we just go round the table including MSPs, and we can just see who we are. I'm Bob Doris MSP, and I'm the covener of the committee. I'm Alan Lindsay. I'm the participation and co-design director at YoungScot. Mark Griffin MSP for Central Scotland. Alison Johnstone MSP for Lothian. Lauren Bakery, member of the Scottish Youth Parliament for Carers Trust Scotland. Alistair Allen MSP for the Helen and the New Year. Fiona Collin policy manager for Carers Scotland. George Adam, Paisley MSP. Louise Morgan director for Carers Trust Scotland. Michelle Ballantyne MSP for the South of Scotland. Hi, I'm Wilma Murray, and I'm the senior development officer for West Lothian Young Carers Project. Gordon Lindhurst MSP for Lothian. Along with an hour or so to have a discussion on the consultation on the young carers grant, we'll move to our first line of questioning, Alison Johnstone MSP. Thank you, convener. I'm really pleased that we're here having this discussion this morning. It was a Scottish Greens manifesto commitment, and it was one that we were absolutely delighted when the First Minister, you know, wholeheartedly was fully supportive very swiftly. And I think it's absolutely, you know, it's an area where there's agreement across party that this is something that we want to get right. So I'd like to ask those who joined us this morning whether they think that £300 is the correct amount, but also more generally, sort of taking it as a whole, is the package of support for young carers in Scotland adequate? Okay, who'd like to start in relation to that? Don't be shy if you're a colleague. Okay. In terms of the wider package of support, I think there's some good options put in there in terms of the cash amount, but also the additional support through the young Scott card and concessionary travel when it comes. I think it also needs to be seen as part of the package of support through the carers act and through educational maintenance allowance, which I think it is worth pointing out that whilst young carers can get support through that, there is still some inconsistent application of the guidance around the ability for young carers to perhaps not have perfect attendance or have some lateness. In terms of the amount itself, I think that I was drawn to some of the comments by young carers and they have pointed out that it's not a huge amount. If you compare it to carers allowance, which is near £4,000 per year, it does kind of pale in comparison, but it is a bit of a balance. It should not provide a perverse incentive for young people to have inappropriate levels of care, so I think that it is a bit of a balancing act. I think that it's a good starting point in the sense that previously young carers had nothing, so giving them something is definitely something that is welcomed because if you think about what they are doing is a job, they are essentially working. If that was someone who worked a full-time job as a carer, they were burning a lot more than they would, especially at age 16, 17 and 18, when they can get a job and sometimes they can't because of their caring responsibilities. However, I do think that after a year or so they should look at feedback from young carers themselves and see what they have to say about it. Ultimately, everyone around here can say that it's the right amount or that it's not the right amount, but no-one around here is going to get the money, so no-one here can safely say if it is the right amount or not. It's welcome, but it's a starting point. In other comments in relation to that, Louise Morgan. We would agree with that. It's really a good start and we're very supportive of the young carer grant. However, if you look at the 16-hour eligibility criteria and how much that is per hour or £300, it's only £36 per hour. What does that say about how we value our young people? Even doubling the amount that is proposed to £600 would cost the Scottish Government an additional £500,000. That would be an additional £500,000. The Scottish security budget is £2.7 billion, so we think that we could be a bit more generous to our young people. Also looking at how that might be paid as well. I don't know if you want to go into that at the moment. I'm sure we will look at that in due course and feel free to come back in relation to that. Again, a good starting point, but just a starting point. Who hasn't had the opportunity to speak yet? I don't know if I will, but do you want to? I'm just talking to the young people that they've been working with. They agree that it's good that people are thinking about them now, because I think that they feel that they're left on their own sometimes. It is a good starting point, but they agree that how is it going to be paid, what's the criteria going to be. We think that it's quite narrow, and some we miss out on the opportunity to access that. We've been doing stuff in West Llywy to try and get free transport for young carers, because that's something that our young people are very passionate about. They think that, as it is 2020-21, it's coming out that that will be a bit too late for the ones that need it now, and it's stopping them. The first thing that I want to pick up on is what Lauren said, the importance of being the young carers themselves who are having the same in this as well. I think that that's really valuable from our perspective in terms of the wider package within Young Scot. We are involved in working with young carers around the young carers vision panel in terms of looking at how the Young Scot card can be utilised to offer bespoke entitlements for young carers as well. In terms of that wider package, I think that the stage of the process that we're in at the moment in terms of engaging with young carers to just ask them initially what their thoughts are, what the issues are that they are facing, what are some of the barriers they face, and how can something like the Young Scot card be used to help them to access opportunities to overcome some of the challenges that they may be facing. We're gathering initial information from the young people at the moment, but certainly by giving them the opportunity, I think that that's really valuable, because they are the ones that know their experiences and can really speak about what they need and what they feel is lacking at the moment. From our perspective, someone like the Young Scot card is brilliant because it can allow us to do stuff that is universal for all the young people that have a card in Scotland, but we can also tailor it using the technology in the card to make it bespoke and therefore remove some of the stigma that's perhaps detached with being a young carer or that they feel that there is with being a young carer, but having something that's on the card that can help young people to access opportunities, but in a way that doesn't have a big sign saying that I'm a young carer or attached, I think that's a really valuable thing as well. In terms of that wider package, I think that there is still a lot of work there for us all to do, but I think that it's promising that the engagement that we're having at the moment with young carers is helping to at least make that informed around their day-to-day and real-life experiences as well. Alison, do you want to take that forward? I think that the comments have been really helpful. Lauren was suggesting that perhaps we need to look at this after a year. I think that that's a well-made point that we should just use this as a starting point and see what difference it's made in how much more cash might make. Obviously, we wouldn't want anyone to think that their efforts were worth 36 pence an hour. I mean, I take on board with the point that there's a feeling that awareness is being raised. There is recognition that we are now discussing young carers and I think that Fiona Collie made a point that was brought home strongly to me when I visited the young carers group in Edinburgh. That point about just understanding it in class and at school when young carers arrive late. That's about having conversations and making sure that the adults that young carers are engaging with understand their family background. I met a couple of young carers who were almost put off attending school because they found it very difficult sometimes to get in on time because of their caring responsibilities with parents and others in the morning. There is far more to this than money. Obviously, that's the thing that we're here to discuss this morning, but thank you. Those comments are very helpful. Fiona Collie, do you want to add anything to that that you were mentioned there? I think that awareness in schools is critical. Certainly at the carers Parliament last month, we heard feedback from young carers, but also from families where there was a young carer in the family that the issue of young carers being identified in schools but also being supported in schools. I went to the education maintenance allowance, where there was an issue before. Guidance was changed, but it's not happening consistently. That's about awareness, about schools having full awareness of young carers and being able to support them. Apollyas Allister, Louise Morgan, will take you first. I was just going to say a little bit more about the young carers in schools and identifying young carers and self-identifying them. One of the things that is worrying for us about the grant is around the eligibility criteria. I know that we will come on to that, but it is important at this point to mention that the definition of young caring for the purposes of the grant doesn't really go into the detail of young people who may very well be looking after someone who has an addiction or a mental health issue. Those young carers who are more likely to be hidden young carers and less likely to self-identify are possibly the ones who are worried about coming in late because they then become very visible by walking into a room when everyone else is already sitting there. Why are you doing that? Your mum doesn't look as if she's got physical disability or anything wrong with her to us. I think that there's a lot of worrying concern around young carers who actually really need the grant being able to self-identify as well. Do you want to say a little bit more about eligibility criteria? I think you previously mentioned it in your last comment as well, so you've maybe got some concerns around that. Maybe just be quite helpful to put on the record quite clearly what those concerns are. What's good about it, but what are your concerns? In terms of the age group, we certainly heard at the carers Parliament that we feel that the age range is quite narrow in age 16 to 18 and in 18 and in school as well. We feel that all 18-year-olds at least should be entitled to the or eligible for the grant. I know that that's to go hand-in-hand with the carers act around the definitions of young carers there, but we do feel that that is quite narrow. We've had a lot of young carers saying that it won't be any good to them at this point in their life and for two years how is that going to support them in terms of the eligibility criteria, but how they assess hours as well in the 16-hour. We totally understand why you take that figure as well, because it's consistent with the eligibility criteria for other benefits. However, how do you get that measurement of hours? We would really hope that that would be done sensitively and sensibly and possibly around getting verification from the cared for person. I'm going back to the group that I mentioned, the young carers who might be supporting people with addictions or mental health issues who might not realise that the young person is supporting them to that degree or even giving any support and would not want to see their child called a young carer. Other people will have more to say about that. The Lord was nodding her head during that, so would you put some of your thoughts around that on the record, if that's okay, Lord? Yeah, I won't say too much, because I know that that question comes up later about eligibility and there's a bit about, you know, what the tasks they have to undertake to qualify and stuff. You miss out such a large group, especially those who care for someone with something like MS, who, you know, they push and push themselves to work for as long as possible before they can't. So, but when they come home from work, like, you know, they can't do anything like they're exhausted and the young carer steps in. But the fact that they don't have to physically help feed and dress and, you know, do physical tasks wipes out so many young carers who give emotional support, who give support to those addictions like MS. So, like, there's not a one shoe fits all kind of thing for young carers. There's not, caring isn't just about the physical tasks you have to undertake. And I think a lot of people forget that. There's a lot more to caring than, you know, helping mum in the shower or, like, feeding someone or helping someone get dressed. Like, I think that's a very old school term for what a carer is and a lot of the time it's just listening to what they have to say because they've got no one else to talk to about things. I think that I'd like to back both those points up wholeheartedly. I can't, I don't actually really understand why the definition for the young carers grant around caring is different to the definition around carers allowance. Carers allowance simply talks about the hours of care and that the person has to have a qualifying benefit. This will still require a qualifying benefit but it requires detailing of what perhaps is pretty intimate care by a young person but also it misses out that whole section of young carers that Lauren is talking about. I don't really understand why the definitions at that point around the qualifying criteria are different. I don't understand why the hours are different but I don't understand why the criteria is different. It doesn't. Just before we move on and then I'll take you in a little second, could you just put on the record for us a bit more explicitly just so that we're clear as a committee the types of young carers that you think, you just have to speak about it Lauren, but the types of young carers that might miss out based on the current proposed eligibility criteria, that would be quite helpful I think for the committee. I would certainly say that the issues around caring for someone with an addiction, particularly around mental health, but I actually think that quite a lot of young carers, part of it, is about emotional support and caring in general a lot is about emotional support and being there for someone. I would particularly point out mental health and addictions but I think that it could be a lot wider for young carers. Just to back up Fiona in terms of the emotional support research shows that 82 per cent of young carers say that emotional support is part of their caring role so I think that's a huge percentage and certainly I know that giving that type of support is sometimes the most difficult type of support to give. I don't see any other witnesses disagreeing with that so that's on the record and that's helpful for the committee. Alice Rallon, do you want to? I realise that we might pick up more stuff to do with education later on but I was just really interested in what was said about young carers' experience of school earlier on and wondered if Lauren, given your role in representing young carers anecdotally even what carers would say now about their experience of school in terms of the awareness and understanding of teachers of the job that carers do? Obviously for this I'm more than happy to give anecdotal references like I'm very open about my experiences but what I will say is that my experience is very very very different to so many people. I was so lucky to have such a fantastic support system for my school. I had a guidance teacher who fully understood what a young carer was, how best to support, she was in touch with my local young carer centre and she just knew that regardless of what was going on all she had to do for me was be a listener near when things were difficult. One experience in particular was the day before my higher modern studies exam in the sixth year. My mum took anaphylactic reaction on a car driving home and she was taken to hospital 13 hours before the exam started and I was supposed to go home and revise but I also had three younger siblings in the house and I was like okay. It was something like five o'clock at night and I just found my school on the off chance that she was there, she was and I just told her and she was like okay don't worry just get some sleep tonight and we'll sort it in the morning. I went in the morning of my exam and luckily enough she's a modern studies teacher and both her and my modern studies teacher sat with me before the exam and I just spelled out what I knew to them and they helped fill gaps and you know they made me feel confident about going into exams and they they broke questions down for me if I didn't understand because they knew the night before I couldn't look over notes and that's what I always do like I always cram. I started before but I always cram the night before just to give myself a bit more knowledge and so for me like it's always been a positive experience at school but I know for a lot of people I represent it's not the case. They don't like to tell people that they're a young carer if they do they feel that not all teachers listen they feel that they can't access things at a school like notes homework extra support it's a case of that way for so many so many people just feel that schools don't listen they don't understand they're not aware that they can't talk to anyone and that's something that I hear all the time and I'm sure like the others here will hear the same thing like it's like hitting yourself a brick wall no one understands and they don't want to say anything because they know they won't understand yeah Alasdor do you want to you know no I just open up that conversation if you want to okay we've got a whole range of things to explore and we're papers here so I'm talking to my MSP colleagues here I can go through them but does anyone else wish to take take the line of questioning forward okay stunned into silence my colleagues thank you very much oh thank you thank you thanks coming up we've touched on the number of young carers who won't be eligible and the figures that we have are that there are 11,000 young carers in scotland but only 1700 will be eligible so look at that that looks like only 15 percent of young carers will actually be eligible for that what what people's views on such a small section of young carers being eligible for for this grant of course who is it that's missing out of course yeah in relation to that would be really helpful to know any learn good I just want to think of your number of that 1700 who are eligible and then I want you to think about like of those eligible who actually has the confidence of knowledge to apply for it so you've already limited who can apply for it with the criteria but you have to think about who knows how to apply for it who has the confidence in himself and recognises himself as a young carer enough to qualify for it in order to receive it because you're already narrowing your numbers down more and more as you go with who will apply because not all 1700 will apply for it yeah I think probably there is also the issue of where there could be two young carers of that age in a family looking after the cared for person so I think in the regulations we're talking about only one of those being eligible at any one time so that and I think this was a point that came up at carers parliament as well that a 16 year old could possibly go for two years without actually being recognised as a young carer and why why should we value their caring role less than perhaps the older sibling so I think that that could be a body of people that could miss out on young carer grant just through that in part of the eligibility criteria. If you're a college would you like to add something? Yeah I mean I think that the issue of 18 year olds in full time education I think that they should be included it's a key transition point it's a time when they can't clean carers allowance and they're too old because they're at college to claim the grant. I think carers allowance is not yet fully devolved and there's on-going discussions about whether there would be changes to the full time study rule. I think the point that Lauren made around a kind of years review I think in terms of the extension making sure that it does cover 18 year olds in full time education would be something that we can test again in a year and see where we are with what we're going forward with in terms of carers assistance. I'm also I would echo Louise's point around two young carers but also around someone in the family receiving carers allowance. I think that it doesn't necessarily recognise the complexity of families. There may be a primary carer perhaps another parent within the house but as a young person and I speak from experience in this as a young person your life is different and the things that you have to do are different to other young people and you still will have a significant caring role within that because if you think about carers allowance is 35 hours there's a lot of other hours within that that a young person may be supporting despite there being someone else who is receiving carers allowance within the family. Not particularly. I suppose just to raise from our point of view in terms of the work that we've been doing particularly around the young scot national entitlement card and the additional support there for young carers is that while it is you know closely aligned to the stuff around the grant and the two kind of doing for each other it is kind of runs parallel it's not the grant in terms of the work that we're doing so that's not something that we have been engaging with the young people around specifically so just from that perspective just say that's not something that I can add on. Mark, do you want to develop that further? The purpose of the young carers grant from the government consultation is to provide support during the key transition period in young carers lives to help improve their health and education outcomes as they move into the adult world. That purpose would seem to apply to all young carers all 11,000 young carers and we've already set out some of the restrictions which is then limiting the eligibility to just 15 per cent so I think whether that's in a year's time or actually whether we look at that before we roll out the grant I think we need to recognise that the purpose of the grant applies to all 11,000 young carers and that's something possibly we should look at in our response to the government. Who are the young carers that don't know, we kind of know from the 16 to 17 year olds who might not qualify because of the criteria 18 year olds in the full-time education who are not at school. Are there other groups who make up the shortfall who won't be reached by the young carers grant that we have not spoken about yet? Just so we'd be clear, we're talking about carers who because they're younger age is that part of that missing group? Who is it that's not reaching because Mark White rightly said there's an estimated 11,000 of whatever carers and the majority of them won't get the financial support so who else is it that wouldn't get the financial support just so that we're clear about it as a committee? Really again just to emphasise you know in terms of the eligibility criteria that the cared for person must be in receipt of the disability allowance and again those groups that I spoke about before, the addictions and you know perhaps people who have mental health issues that maybe haven't been formally identified but that can actually be sometimes a much more onerous caring role for the young person because they don't maybe have that support in the community for the person that they look after but they're definitely young carers and I think that that will go that that will actually be quite a number of young carers I think if we look at our young carer services and the number of young carers who come from a home where there is a disability allowance going in there'll probably still be a substantial number of young people attending those services. A petition with that question I just want to make sure the committee properly understands who really gaps are and who those individuals are. Michelle Ballantyne, did you want to come in? Yes, thank you, good morning everybody. My great concern with this has been the fact that actually the majority of young carers that I've worked with and come across actually don't have parents that have a registered disability that allows them to get the allowances that would qualify young carers for this grant and you know I think that is something a lot of them are in touch with young carers organisations or getting support and then there's a whole lot in touch with anybody and I would like to hear from all of you what you feel about that and where you think we stand around that because often it's those young carers in the most difficult position because the ones that are identified and whose parents identified often get more wraparound support already because their parents are already being supported in some way and also touching back on the emotional side there is the emotional support that is given but actually for most young carers that I've had contact it's the emotional drain that they actually feel even if they're not physically doing anything they're often almost paralyzed at school some days because they're terrified about what they're going to go home to um you know whether their parents still still going to be alive or is going to be lying on the floor unconscious and often it's that worry that they live with day in day out that it's absolutely exhausting for many of the young people um so I'm just wondering two things really a about the that qualification bit and and the kind of conversations we need to have around that but b the other side is around what's proposed is a lump sum you know one-off annual payment to support transition um and I just like to hear a little bit about what you feel about that as opposed to something that is a weekly payment um because again um some of the feedback I got was the trouble is when you get it in a lump sum there's a tendency to go out and spend a lump sum on on something that you might want whereas often the problem is is I think it's mentioned in our papers it's it's having bus fare it's having you know money for lunches every week because you don't necessarily want to take money off your parents or whatever um so I would just like a wee bit of discussion around that as well if that's okay okay and he's got us on that um we'll go to learn first um I have a comment just on the whole lump sum idea so personally I feel that that £300 should not be spent on things like bus fares and lunches and it should be for a young person to be a young person because previously they have not had the time or resources to be a young person so things as simple as go to the cinema paying for driving lessons things that every young person should have that they can't because of their cane and roll but also just wanting to think about the fact that a lot of young people are going to get that and I think sometimes it's going to go back into the family in some way because it's a source of money that previously hadn't been given um so I feel like giving that as a like a lump sum isn't the best idea because that £300 can go straight into the family pot whereas if it's given over a period of time they have more of an opportunity to do things on a more regular basis as a young person so rather than just doing something like once or twice with the £300 if they're getting it in over a monthly instalment that's every month they can do something with their friends or every month they can achieve something else like a driving lesson or like go to the cinema or go on for lunch or just something that isn't what they would usually do whereas the £300 I think you've got to take the perspective of that £300 can go straight into the family pot and they couldn't see any of it in that sense. It was really just to pick up on what Michelle said about young carers coming in to school and being terrified of what they go home to but again we come back to this point about identification when they go to school coming from backgrounds as we're just talking about sometimes they're actually terrified of being identified as well as a young carer you know so again there's a population you know that are missing out that really would be terribly afraid to come forward and identify that they had they had a caring role. Okay, should I call it? Just on the issue of qualifying criteria and the issue around the person has to have a qualifying disability benefit it is a balance to be honest between something that's relatively simple in terms of any social security system so that's a clear identifying point you know potentially there are other ways to identify young carers for example through young carer services through schools but I think there is the issue that the those who are hidden potentially still remain as hidden as they are just now and I think it's a difficult balance because I don't know if we would be able to identify all those hidden young carers that could benefit we may over time but potentially that's another piece of work that needs to be carried out in terms of of schools in terms of the carers act in terms of further education as well so there's almost as I said it's a simplicity versus complexity and whether we would actually reach the aim of reaching those hidden young carers I agree with Louise and Fiona but I also think you know we are a lot better in raising awareness of young carers than we were like 10 or 15 years ago but I think we've still got a long way to go I think you know it needs to be part of you know some training as well you know in colleges and universities for staff coming through for schools for nurses although that's getting done it's not something that's done consistently over universities and colleges I think it needs to be done a bit more and I know there's lots of good kind of other young carers projects out there doing a lot of good work to raise awareness but it just seems to be like chipping away where it's the same people that are referring you know some teachers don't think it's important for them to to know about some of this information and stuff like that obviously that's just my experience and we you know we're we're doing a big kind of work in West London now and all the high schools but it's difficult to get the kind of the top people to kind of listen as well a little bit as the kind of it's the the guidance teachers it's the teachers that are kind of on the floor that are always referring to us that are aware of us it's the ones that don't we need to kind of be doing stuff about that as well to kind of try and identify some of these hidden young carers just to say that Carers Trust Scotland we now have a project that are working with all the universities in Scotland and the further education institutions to support them to have a recognising student carers award and so that piece of work has begun and we would hope that you know that we would be helping to raise awareness among the staff in the further and higher institutions to actually raise awareness among the staff themselves but also for them to help to identify student carers and to make them sort of carer friendly institutions as well to develop policies to identify and support within within education institutions so you know we we do hear from staff within the education within colleges and universities that there are bursaries for an instance cared for and looked after student carers but nothing there's nothing there really specifically for student carers and we feel that this is something that probably needs to be addressed as well maybe not for today's conversation but maybe just to be noted okay thank you did you want to go in that house please yeah just as opposed to add to all of that really some of the things that some of the young carers that we've been engaging with around the sort of additional packages have been mentioning have been just some of those things the fact whether it's an education or in their workplace or socially that often there's not the understanding that there maybe should be and it's often not even the fault of the other people I suppose but just in terms of people either not taking them seriously or not understanding them and in terms of the monetary side of things as well I suppose one of the things that some of the young carers have mentioned in terms of relation to education which I think Louise you were touching on there was just the fact that actually sometimes it can be really basic things like stationary resources textbooks stuff that we probably all take for granted that actually they cost money and there's a barrier there as well for for young carers in terms of accessing those basic things that they maybe need which then perhaps has a another knock-on effect as well in terms of the education okay learn did you want to go in I do yeah just touching on Louise's point about universities and colleges and I fully understand that this is about the young carer grant and it's to align with the criteria of a young carer but one of the questions actually states that should young carers in full time for their higher education be entitled to the grant as a young adult carer in full time for their higher education I do feel as though we should be entitled to the grant I'm 19 I'm at university I'm a full time carer I work part time and don't have a social life and there is nothing for me to claim as a young person who cares while in full time education I cannot claim carers limits I cannot claim this grant because I'm too old there is not a specific bursary from SAS that you know I'm entitled to as a student carer there is what's called a dependence grant however that is very difficult to claim and you're only entitled to it if the cared for person depends on you financially not in terms of the level of care you provide it's all but financially being dependent so I would fully support something further in the line for those of us who are working our way through university because I dropped out last year things were too difficult for university you know the course was difficult I was managing a carer role from the other side of the central belt I was working and things got too much and I couldn't do it so I moved home and I've started again at a different university and like that wasted a year of SAS funding for me because I wasn't correctly supported and now I still find it difficult being at home because I'm doing more caring but I still have to work because there's there's nothing that can relieve that pressure so I think while it's great that you're starting with this age group of young carers when they actually they're getting something whether at school but when they come into further and higher education age 18, 19, 20 they're back to having nothing and they're back to struggling their way through education without anything and you'd be surprised at the dropout rate of student carers in universities because it's staggeringly low you don't experience there as well but obviously that'll extend to other people across across the country so it's important you put that on the record if you want to call you'll take it first then if you want to come yeah I just like to I mean I support what Lauren says and certainly as a minimum think that this grant should be available to people who are 18 in full-time education I think there is that bigger point around supporting young adult carers in university and college but actually all carers to be able to develop their skills and knowledge and their aspirations and I think that was the point I was making around you know carers allowance will be fully devolved in time what changes can we make that makes that better for young adult carers and for adult carers as well but you know there may be something that within that that we need to look at this to be something that's an interim solution for young people above 18 that there's a possibility of doing that I think that would be really good okay thank you okay sure opposite morning I just wanted to explore what Lauren was saying a little further I think you make a compelling case and there does appear to to be a bit of a gap there with regard to student carers but what you described was two well two things one that you have on principle you believe the young carers grant should be extended to student carers and I understand the reasons why but I'm wondering how much support and discussion young carers in your position making life choices had because it seems to me that trying to juggle full time caring a job and moving to another town for university did you get much support prior to making those decisions do you think that would have been helpful so is there something else beyond young carers grant which I know is the focus of our discussion but should there be a more structured support for young carers making that transition to help discuss through some of those because it sounds as if you were almost set up to fail in some ways and through your own resilience have managed to get back on track but it sounds as if it's been quite a challenging experience for you that is a difficult question and I wouldn't say in the sense I was set up to fail because I received a lot of support prior going to university and you know while at university from my young carers group they've known me since I was eight you know I was identified quite early and from that age I've always said I want to go to university I want a degree I want to be the first in my family to get a degree that was a big push for me and it still is and it's not so much about you know I was set up to fail it's more the challenges that occurred during my first year at university pushed me back and I had great support but I made the decision myself you know not to return and I made the decision myself about what was best for me and you know I was supported to try and stay and you know supported in the sense that you know that there'll be more support for you here but at the end of the day I felt it was right for me in my role and it's not the case that I was set up to at university and all support left it was a personal decision and I truly believe me the right one but it's what crops up during the year that people don't see like it could be a great year like my freshers week in my first three months amazing I had the best time I was a proper student like this was a life I'd never had before I was like I'm going out on a Tuesday night I was I was living and then but then things happened and things came out of control and became really busy at home and I wasn't at home to deal with it and then I started to freak out because I was like oh hang on I'm not at home to deal with this who's dealing with this and then I made the responsibility as a young person to take that role back on even though I was miles away so I think it's not so much that I'm set up to fail it's more it's the person's choice I mean it sounds as if you know you you made the right choices for you at that time I guess I'm thinking of you know young people generally leaving home and going to college university can face some similar challenges but in addition to that you obviously had the pressures and worries at home so I mean are there you said you've got some support from as a student carer would you there's obviously been some comments made around the table about whether or not that is structured enough whether or not every student carer would have that same experience so in your view do you think that's something that needs to be looked at on a more structured basis to make sure every college every university has that support sometimes the decision will be that it's you know it's not possible for the person to to remember but in some cases with proper support it might have been a different outcome um I do believe that every college university should have a structured level of support so that it's not a case of postcode lottery of support you're getting like you should get the same amount of support regardless of what institution you go to like that should just be a given you shouldn't be you shouldn't get a better level of support because you go to sterlin or you shouldn't get a better level of support just because you go to you know Aberdeen like everyone should be able to the same amount of emotional support with their role I couldn't imagine it not being like that it just seems unfair um but I think that one of the biggest things is that financial support the fact is that you know if you're living away from home you still have to pay your accommodation fee which is what your SaaS covers and then you're left with literally nothing so you have to work and if that was alleviated then you have more time to do things as a young person um and as a part of the Scottish Youth Parliament I passed a motion a few weeks ago that states the Scottish Youth Parliament believes that carers allowance should be extended to young adult carers age 16 to 25 in full-time education and that that is like you know that is something that you know for sure should be given just because you're in education you shouldn't be made to choose between wanting to better yourself or making sure the right supports at home you know you should be worked with both financially and emotionally to ensure that they too can go hand in hand and you can still provide the support needed but you know you can still better your life and you know you can still break this what I call is a cycle of care which is where you know a young carer will go into a care related job because it's what they know well you know they go into jobs like nursing teaching um like even just as a full-time carer because that's all they know it's about ensuring that they can explore their options that they know they could be a scientist, an artist or they could do anything just because they're a carer it doesn't mean that they have to stick to that lane that there's more things for them to you know branch out into and I think with the emotional support and the financial support going hand in hand they can achieve that really fascinating discussion just two seconds Michelle just apologies I'll be like in a wee second just when I was listening to that and it's maybe not one from this committee but I know through constituency casework SASS will only give so many years public funding for degrees and that can lead to people having to self-fund in future years and I've had to make representations on behalf of constituents for exception and discretion to be shown for additional years of public funding for university degrees and the like to be taken into account when you decided that it was right for you and your family at that time to not progress with your degree at that time for your caring responsibilities and everything else did SASS indicate at any point were they aware that's why you was in a process you could go through to indicate the reason you didn't complete that particular year at university was because of caring needs and responsibilities in other words so that when you get to your senior honours year you could be told well actually you've had your four years you have to pay you have to self-fund that and I hope you go to your MSP and discretion is shown you don't have to self-fund that but was there any guidance of support given to you about what what the issues would be in relation to that? So I was lucky I there was a term and I finished that first year so I used a full year funding and I got you know the relative qualification from that but so I've used one year of funding which means on this degree I'm not going to go for the full honours I'm just going to get the 360 credit degree because eventually I want to go on and be a teacher even though I'm teaching that young carers should break this cycle but you know I feel that I'm going into a STEM related subject I want to be a computing teacher and you know empower females into that field and also you know as a carer I'm more empathetic in that role and you know I can as it have been a young carer I feel like being a teacher would allow me to make more of a difference in the education field but you don't need the full honours to go and get your teaching degree just into 360 credits so that's what I'm going to do purely on the basis of funding and time. I suspect you do incredibly well but there could be wider SAS issues for young carers that maybe this committee has to sign post to the education committee or others in relation to that really really helpful for us to understand what the barriers are and how you cope with that. Michelle Ballantyre first, I apologize I had cut you off there. I just wanted to ask the point of clarification on your commentary around having the sort of grant extended over that sort of 18 to 25 period. Do you mean in relation to anybody who has is a young carer or do you mean in relation to people who remain at home to continue that young carer as opposed to say when you first went away and were not living at home? Just wanted to ask whether that was for everybody or just those that remained living at home with their the parent. First thing is that it's just it's not anything so the 18 to 25 bracket are not classes young carers and as someone in that age bracket I like to be that clear we are young adult carers and that is often overlooked at we're often either seen as young carers or adult carers and it's nothing against you know what you're saying it's just I just like to make that point because it's a completely different case load completely different needs completely different you know everything to a young carer however I do feel I should be given to anyone you know even though you move away you can still partake in your carer role especially if it's an emotional carer so you know if you know mum's on the phone at nine o'clock at night having a breakdown because what's going on you're there listening to that even though you're not in the home if it's your brother you care for and you know it's the same way around he's in the phone he's not sure what to do he's confused he's something to talk to you're still there for them even though you're not at home like the carer role doesn't stop because you're not in the house the carer role is a constant even like being at home you're still worried about them you're still thinking about them you're still doing little things to help you're still going home as much as possible so it should be it shouldn't be a case of only a certain number of young people can claim this it should be a blanket term for everyone everyone should be able to have claim it the same way it shouldn't be a pick and choose thing like you care enough you don't care enough so you can't or you live at home and you don't live at home or you know you only care 10 hours but you care 25 like it should just be a universal thing for everyone and I think the fact it's not shows that you know some young carers are kind of looking to their like well why can you get it if I can't and well if I can't get it then why can you get it we're doing a similar role and you're just kind of sparking that between the young people themselves for thinking about what makes them different to me like we're the same we're both young carers so you're opening up a wider conversation among young carers himself which isn't helpful can I expand that slightly you can yes because that sort of leads me nicely into the question around siblings and entitlement beyond one person so I mean for example you mentioned earlier you've got three younger siblings and obviously as you all grow up presumably they're taking on roles as well or not well in some families obviously it might might be split but but how how would you and I suppose I've widen this to everybody really how would you see it in terms of multiple young people in the family um do they all get it do they split it you know where do we go with that because I think that's going to be an issue for some families as well I'm also conscious of the last 10 questions or something yeah that's what I'm saying because I'll be directed towards yourself so why don't we see if others get comments first give you a chance to get your breath back because I kind of just feel as if I've been thrown questions constantly at you but we'll take you and you as part of this discussion funeral calling yeah I don't really see a reason why other young carers in household couldn't also receive receive the grant I don't necessarily think it needs to be split I think you know as an individual each one is providing a caring role as long as they they are providing that caring role that should be enough um I know that young there's some young carers in the experience panels talked about splitting the grant um I'm not entirely sure about that but you know that there are some examples of perhaps having a higher pot a more an increased pot um winter fuel payments is an example of that there's a there's a range of payments depending on your age and circumstances so you know that there could be something around that I would say it's probably a lot less complex just to pay individual young carers if there's more than one sibling that's providing care I think that's probably easier and simpler for a system rather than trying to do split payments how many that would involve because one of the things about any social security system is certainty we are possible for the clarity for budgeting purposes so do we know how many households that might involve maybe one for us to ask the government that that's fine any other general comments learn did you want to come back in um while I said that you know my younger siblings don't take you know a role they don't take a role in terms of I do they do little things which helps and if I'm not there it trickles down to the the next eldest and if they're not there it trickles down again but we also collectively do care for one of our siblings so one of my younger siblings has autism and you know that's a caring role that we all provide and I think that restricting it to only me being a well I'm not even entitled to it but my brother who would be entitled to it saying no you can't because your sister you know she already provides caring you're not the primary carer and that it just isn't fair it's like saying you know again it's almost like a postcode lorry but in your own house it's like saying well only you can get it you do the most and you're the eldest but there's still two younger siblings who are dealing with more than they should for their age I feel like it should be given to everyone because again it should be a universal blanket case I'm coming towards the end of what evidence session this morning there's one specific question I know we haven't asked yet at the cinema notes which I'll ask in a second but I'm just wondering the conversation we had earlier on about I'll take any way second Alice it's just I was conscious that we spoke about the 300 pounds irrespective of whether that's enough or not enough getting that in the lump sum or getting 25 pounds one sum one for example I think Lauren had been suggesting that it might be more meaningful because the 300 pounds appears in the household it'd be moped up by family debts or other issues where is a smaller amount more regularly you could do something with it go for a night out or whatever but I'm just wondering whether or not the thoughts would be does it have to be one or the other or should a degree of choice be able to be given to the young care or whether they would get the 300 pounds or whether they would want a monthly payment and it's just a second thing on top of that is it's okay to say to someone okay there's 25 pounds one a month then you might want to go to the pictures with your pals and go for a burger after it my goodness 25 pounds doesn't cover that these days really does it but but you need to make sure mum or dad or wee brother or wee sister at home is okay or you're not going to get out in the first place so there has to be a connectivity between local care or services whether it's respite care or whoever coming into the household to support the young care and cared for person to allow them to go and actually use the relatively small amount of money to just enjoy being a young person so two things on that really one should it be a choice whether you take the lump sum or a monthly payment and two should that have to cord that with local services to allow you to actually use the money in a meaningful way I think certainly ideally young people should have the choice of what works for them I think definitely about how we connect in with carers services and that young people it's early days in terms of the carers act but that that young people's young carers statement actually plans for breaks for young people I know that some carers centres have time to live funds and young people can apply for what is a grant that enables them to look at to look at breaks or other or other things and that you know in some areas they've been using that for spot purchasing but the links need to be really strong to enable there to be a real purpose and an improvement in life for young people can I just highlight one thing that's a little concern is around bank accounts and how many young people will have a bank account or a credit union account in order for the grant to be paid whether it's in a lump sum or monthly and I think it's something that needs to be explored particularly for where you know in the most disadvantaged households there is likely to be there's a lesser uptake in terms of knowledge and understanding of banking and of accounts so that there's a balance in there ensuring that the young people have the information about how to open an account or do we need to look at third party perhaps carer services supporting those young carers who don't have bank accounts and being able to help in that way so I just wanted to highlight that something that's helpful any other comments along with themes Louise Morgan? Nothing really to add but just to really support what Fiona said I mean ideally you know in this we would like to see young carers having the choice about how the payments were made and again just to come back to my first point that we would like to see it being a larger sum of money and possibly making you know maybe two annual payments of £300 maybe at you know the way that the carer allowance supplement is is being administered around sort of summertime when people are likely to want some money or you're you might be going off to university or leaving university or changing your life in some way and around Christmas time might be helpful. Before we move on to Alice and Johnston any other comments and relation to that Lauren had you want to come back out of here in a wee second Alan, Lauren? Just about the whole like respite thing and I do feel like every young person should be given you know the chance to go out even like even if that means respite come in and help but I think that's the issue I think that as an issue like around both terms of payments around £300 and the monthly payment because regardless if they want to go out they're going to have to have a bit of initial support in the household. One thing I will say about the lump sum is I don't think that the young carers are likely to spend that as well as they would have a monthly payment because they know that £300 is all they've got so they're going to try and make it last as long as they can whereas like a monthly payment system would allow them you know every month they've got this coming in they can do something or they can save it so every few months they do something but definitely like give them the choice you shouldn't make that decision for them it's for them to make what's best for them. Alan? Yeah I think just on top of that I think again I know the main focus has been around the grant as it should be today but just in terms of the additional packaging of entitlements that are being worked on as well I think it just highlights the importance of that in terms of you know non-monitory support for young carers as well whether it's discounts to allow maybe the money to go a little bit further whether it's access to opportunities whether it's an opportunity to share further information to help young carers make those informed decisions about what they want to do and what they want to access I think that's really important and also in terms of the comments around you know bank accounts as well I think that's a really valid point and I think there's an opportunity there I think in terms of the wider package to try and share that information with with young carers and also to utilise things like the young scot card which can be used to help open up bank accounts which for young people who perhaps maybe don't always have the necessary passport or documentation they need to be able to open up something official like that you know the young scot card can be used for that purpose as well so I think the the wider package is really important here I don't think the two things stand alone I think they support each other and I think it's important that we continue to involve the young people in that to make sure that those entitlements are things that they'll actually use not just things that we think would be good for you thank you Alison Johnson yeah just a couple of other points one of which we've touched on was that that issue of respite you know you may what even if the funding's in place if you want to go out for the night if you don't have siblings or others who can take on your responsibilities you know do you think there's a need to fund respite properly that'd be my one question and earlier on you spoke about barriers you know you were saying there are 11,000 young people who could be who are caring but 1700 are eligible how many of them are claiming and I know from my own actually I was dealing with a case yesterday where someone is no longer getting carers allowance because the person they care for is no longer deemed eligible for the disability benefit they were getting even though their condition you know remains fairly serious just wondered if any of that had been discussed amongst young carers the fact that you know the people you're caring for in some cases may be facing reductions in their benefits so just those two issues barriers and respite yes of course I do believe that respite should be properly funded because it's both respite for the young person but like themselves to go away but also for them to be so people go out of their own local community because they don't get any opportunity to be a young person they can't you know interact with their peers as well as you know anybody else in their class can I think it's important that we look at them as a young person first before they look at them as a young carer because they should be entitled to the same things that every other young person's entitled to and that's you know free time and that's one thing like I wish I did more of is during my secondary school years was go out because I didn't really and my younger brother can now and you know I see him like he goes out a lot and I see much like fun he has interact with his peers he has and I never did that and that's one thing I think if I could tell myself when I was younger to do I definitely would look into that more because it's just so important for like personal growth is to interact with the peers as much as possible just to touch on your second question on barriers and I think for the young person I do think it is always a worry about you know the benefit that the care for a person receives because that's money coming into the family and that it hasn't had an effect to them like they're they're also worried about that and in terms of them not being able to claim carers allowance because of it is somewhat irrelevant because of their age and their education status so it wouldn't affect them being able to be able to claim carers allowance because they won't be able to claim carers allowance because of education so that has no knock-on effect but it might affect them being able to claim this one-off benefit however if it doesn't affect them at the time of claimancy then they'll still get the money and since it's not like a monthly payment just now anyway then it won't affect them getting the money because as long as they still receive the benefit required to claim carers allowance at the time of claiming at the young carer grant it shouldn't affect them, at least that's my understanding of it. Just sort of on that point if there was one thing you know the Scottish Government I'm very pleased to hear are placing a focus on ensuring that people who are entitled to any benefit get it because we know there's a lot of unclaimed benefit in the UK. If there was one way of reaching young carers what do you think we should be focusing on? What do you mean by that? For people who don't even know that there's such a thing as a young carers grant how can we make sure that people understand their entitlements and are better helped to access them? I think it's just about education at the end of the day but the issue with that just now is you don't want to overeducate because you'll just find too many you know gaps where they can't claim so you're going to educate all these young people about this grant and it's amazing and you know this is something that's never been received before but you can't claim it, you can't claim it, you might be able to, you can, you can and you definitely can't so I think it's just about looking at your criteria and educating to the right amount if you know what I mean, you know not overselling it in the sense that everyone's going to be able to claim it but enough that there's a general understanding that this exists. I think a lot of that will come to your carers centres across Scotland and you know they work with the young people directly or at least most of the young people who directly attend a service so they should be your first port of call because they'll know themselves with the young people they deal with who will be entitled to it so I think if you build a stronger network with the likes of Louise at Carers Trust, they like a partnership with loads of carers centres across Scotland and they'll be able to best tell you how they engage with the young people and who to engage with because if you go about it almost the wrong way then you'll just have a lot of young people who are disappointed and you don't, you don't want that. Okay, so a targeting of education to make sure we're not saying to ever look there's this new young carers grant and the really expectation for those who won't meet the criteria so a targeting of that I think that's pretty clear. There was a question that we had in our notes that I want to ask just for completeness so one of the issues that the Scottish Government had with the best grant which we're not going to talk about today was whether you were able to give that to those who had no recourse to public funds in particular were talking about those with no full residency rights within the country. The Scottish Government has grappled with that a little bit in relation to the young carers grant and our notes tell us that obviously if a young person is within a family whose immigration status is uncertain by seeking to give them cash you can actually put their residency in the country at risk in the first place but what I've got down here and I want to just ask it so we can get on the record people's views whether people here think that the Scottish Government should seek an exception to the no recourse to public funds requirements for the young carers grant as it is hoping to do with the best start grant in relation to that so the young carers in this country whose immigration status is uncertain they won't currently be covered by this should they be covered by this and should the Scottish Government ask for that exception as they are doing with the best start grant so something on the record that would be really helpful. I'll take a few or I'll call the first to come back to you. Yes, I think that Karen transcends nationality immigration status but of course that exception needs to be sought because the last thing we would want to do by trying to do something that was good for young carers in that situation was to actually risk someone's immigration status so I think yes, if we can get an exception. I just want to make a quick point that I said quite a few times that it should be a universal thing that it shouldn't matter. Obviously if we can take it out that it won't affect the immigration status because the last thing that I'd want is someone not being able to be anywhere because of clean money but if we take that aside and look at them again as a young person as a young person who has a responsibility they shouldn't be denied it just because of their immigration status like they should be given it the same way that I'll be given it or the next person would be given it because so young carers in general help to save £100 billion annually which is the cost of a second NHS and you know they're cogging that wheel they they all like while they're not fully you know their status isn't secure in the country they're still helping to save that money within the country so you know they're they're still part of that that wheel that cog they're still you know providing emotional support physical like care they should they shouldn't be targeted because they're not fully saved in the country yet that's that just isn't fair nodding heads with that would anyone disagree with with that who our witnesses here today so the rest of you do agree feel free to put something on the public record if you wish in relation to that and else we'll just note that there's general agreement anyone want to add to that no well time is almost upon us I think we've had good value this morning with the discussions that we've had if anyone here has something that they wanted to say and that you don't think that the way the conversation is developed you've been able to say that feel free just now to to put something on the record you'd be more than welcome to funerally yeah I know I'm not backwards of it coming forwards but I did want to put on the record around the issue of concessionary travel and that is linked only to receipt of the young carers grant and I actually think it should be linked to the young scot card criteria I think actually see if you think about an example where schools now have said I think quite a lot of schools is like you can actually you don't get free transport unless you live more than two miles away but if you are a young carer trying to come back home because you've got a care and responsibility and your family income is low you may not be able to afford to get the bus to speed that up and I think concessionary travel that's just an example I think concessionary travel should be wider than just those in receipt of the young carers grant I just want to have a quick point again just referring to the Scottish Youth Parliament's policy concessionary travel is something very close to my heart I just feel like I shouldn't be made to pay a 13 pound return ticket home as much as I have to because because I have to you know I shouldn't be made to pay that train ticket that's costing me three hours work two hours work because I have to go home and SYP I passed a motion that I presented here in the Scottish Parliament on October 2017 stating that the Scottish Parliament believes that concessionary or free transport should be provided for both young and young adult carers it shouldn't be restricted again to just the young carers that passed with 96% backing of the membership which means that 96% of Scottish young people supported that and I think that's too loud of a voice to ignore that that should just be a given they shouldn't just again it shouldn't be a postcode lottery and that it should be given to everyone not just a select few thank you like time is probably upon us I mean I can indulge further if they're really desperate to be something else on the record I'm not looking if you're a colleague at this point at all right sorry could I just Louise Morgan so it's just one one thing and then she want to mention the the services to support young adult carers and just to say that in the carers national strategy had a chapter around young adult carers specifically and within the carers act there really isn't anything specific and I think that was a disappointment for young adult carers in Scotland and I'd understand why it's around the legal definition and there's that cut off but I think what we have seen over the last few years in terms of services that would have been able to support Lauren in the situation that she found herself making decisions about what would be what would be good for me at this point to you know I have always wanted to go to university but that advice and guidance and that young adult carer services were previously in place in Scotland but through lack of funding have kind of dwindled and there really aren't so many dedicated support services for that age group now so really I think that's maybe part of the package that we should be looking at as well. Okay now I'm not going to make the same offer again that's really important to put that on the record but we do at some point unfortunately have to close this particular evidence session I just wanted to maximise your opportunity to put things on the public record I'm pretty sure that you've done that today so can I thank all our witnesses and that concludes agenda item 2 and when we move to agenda item 3 Scottish Government consultations which we've previously agreed to take in privates when we move into private session. Thanks everyone.