 Look, what you see is only the little part of we, there's a big word around in which you can design, you can create new markets as well, because market, if it is sustainable, why not? If there are new products that are sustainable and good for us and the planet, why not? Let's do it. The issue is when you design unsustainable systems, you design unsustainable products and you preserve unsustainable environment, this is the problem. But then if we all work for a purpose, this would be perfect. Dr. Sonja Masari is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Dr. Sonja Masari has 20 plus years of experience as a researcher, lecturer, consultant and designer in the fields of education, sustainable food design, innovation in the agri-food sector. She was a PhD on food experience designed at the Engineering Department University of Florence, Italy, with a thesis that combined the importance of education, the food system, and digital technologies. Her research started by noting that daily social practices of production, distribution and consumption of food are radically altered by digital technology networks. She continues her research to critically and empirically evaluate the evolution and role played by digital technologies and the cultural transmission and innovation of food practices. For 12 years, she was an academic director of the University of Illinois Urbana Campaign Food Studies programs in Rome, and she designed and coordinated more than 50 academic programs and 150 initiatives on food and sustainability for prestigious international institutions. She has been in this space for many, many years and has worked with many super universities. She currently teaches at several universities around Italy. She also has some new wonderful things coming up and things in the pipeline that we will talk about today. Really, which is super exciting, and that's the main reason why we're here today, is she just published her book, Transdisciplinary Case Studies on Design and Food and Sustainability. Do you have a copy there to hold up for us, Sonia? Oh, so beautiful. I only have the digital version, so I'm not so lucky to get a print copy, but I'll have to get one real soon. And that's really why we're here to talk about that and some of the new things that Sonia is working on, which is quite numerous. Sonia takes a very systemic approach to life and knows that in order to solve our global grand challenges and complex food systems that we really need to take a systemic approach instead of a siloed linear approach where we get these specialist glasses or these blinders on that put us into a narrow focus. Sonia, welcome to the podcast. It's so great to have you. Thank you so much for this invitation. I'm happy to be here. And I'm happy to say that one of the contribution at the beginning of the book is from you, so this is also an interesting connection. And actually, this is what I really wanted as part of the dialogue on the way how we need to see the food from a different perspective. Yeah, and I thank you for that. That was a sure honor to be able to contribute and able to write the prologue or one of the prologues of this wonderful book. It is a compilation and in five separate parts that is a wonderful journey and wonderful case studies. And we're going to get into that and talk about it a little bit further and more detail. But I kind of want to let our less listeners know that our paths have crossed over the years, a few times. We know each other from the future Food Institute and Academy area from the Rome Business School and from the Barilla Center for Food and Nutrition and their night international form on food and nutrition from the BCFN. And there may be many others may possibly siege and chips and the, the world, the world expo that was in Milan and many other things that you've done and where you've spoken and also been with your academic works over the years. I've been very fortunate to see your evolution and your journey and take part in seeing all the great works that you've done before. I with all that in mind and kind of with your bio as well. Let me ask you a question. We've just been through 1518 months of horror of craziness our world has experienced COVID the pandemic mutations now we're looking at the Delta and whatever else black lives matter Asian racism. There are horrific things happening in Italy as far as pandemic and how greatly that affected there, as well as the inauguration of the United States and many many other things. And I want to know those operating manuals those academic learnings that you've had the three Ching or the educating you've been doing over all these years. It's proven to be a better model for life a better model for food to help you weather this craziness in the storm a little bit better. And secondly, how have you been I want to update how did you get through all this crazy time and and your work your beliefs around sustainability food systems design and all that. How has that helped or maybe hasn't it helped to get through this and have you seen the awareness rise up and change during this whole time. Thank you for first of all for many things you said about my my background and you're right. I'm actually in a way designing my own professional career by connecting dots. So for me, this is really important to connect all the experience and also the people I met and the organization I was honored able to work with. And yeah, definitely we we're coming out now from a very hard moment and and of course I was working on study abroad. When when the pandemic started and and as you maybe know study abroad means traveling means mobility means to bring people all around the world and my mission was to bring people in Europe in Italy to understand our food system to you know reach the keys to understand better the sustainability processes and systems in their own country so the study abroad that based on food and sustainability it's really based on the fact that by traveling, you're able to learn and know different cultures but also you're able to know and learn different practices and different policies and and of course everything stopped because of the pandemic. I think was for us for all of us a moment to think about it. And first of all to understand it maybe to reflect a little bit on what was the purpose of this kind of education. And I think the pandemic gave us a, I mean, many problems of course but as a designer, you know, I'm trying to look at the opportunities or better and trying to look at the positive things so what we can bring from a problem what we can bring from a complexity. And I think we we got the proof, at least the fact that the factual proof of the fact that we are all interconnected. So because there was this like big pandemic, all of us were concerning about health were concerned about it, maybe climate change were concerning about, you know, the issue that everybody was facing exactly like the pandemic. So for me this was a kind of a way of thinking of what we need to teach our students now. And what they really need now do they need really to get my lecture and you know following the curricula I designed it in 2019 or do they need something else and then I understood that they didn't need my previous curricula and they needed the keys and the tools to to try to trying to solve complexities. And I think because of the pandemic was one of the biggest complexity they found, and maybe the biggest crisis all of us found in our in our personal life. I think the fact of giving them the instruments for understanding and then defining those opportunities I mentioned before and then defining the fact that we can, you know, solve and we can create we can create new things. Because of the emergency because of the situation because of the fact that when we are in an emergency scenario, we found out the real values that we have to excel. And because of this because of this terrible moment we we we had to face. On the other side we did have a great opportunity to work as teacher as professor as educators because we could bring this as a as a real life approach and say listening now this is the scenario. We need to find out solution and we need this immediately. When I was in a panemia I spent time with a friend of mine who is working in a war environment usually. So for her the panema was just like one of the several emergency environments you had to face and she told me never designed something during the emergency, but you have a lot of time to study because then you can design something for the after emergency. So I think this was for me really the point that you can get the time you can get the time to reflect and you can see the people how they are in the real world because of the emergency and because you see them in their daily life in their family life in their also professional life you know with smart working or all of this kind of thing. I think we were real people facing also many like little problems every day to to you know to fix our our daily schedule. And I think this was the point try to understand exactly what is the scenario for then designing the after pandemic. And I think my students also appreciated the fact that by opening their fridge or like checking in their kitchen or studying their family approaches and behaviors they could find interesting keys to be used for designing new things. You know never never never I think they were designing so much by starting from ethnographic research in their family activities or their family environment. So I think this was also a way to know each other better and to know what we do have as potential as potential it is that we can use it. So I think this is something I want to bring with you more than just like what we had to face the difficulties on passing from you know, analogic life in academia through the digital life. We all know what does it mean to you get your students on on on a zoom or on a team or on whatever platform you use, but they really think was an educator. We did have a great opportunity to rethink education. We need to think education and to help the people to understand why people nowadays need to be educated and how we can actually make them more responsible professionals and not just like, you know people with a degree. We need more responsible citizen we need more responsible professionals and the way how we can do it is to help them to face complexities and emergency and emergency situation like we did that. So I don't know if I answered what I think you you definitely you definitely answered it and so I guess that there's a couple follow up questions to that are I want to maybe go a little bit deeper. Majority of your classes or your courses were in person offline. Before the pandemic, all of those were offline and during the pandemic all of them went online. The study abroad part was it actually transform it in virtual travel. So they did have the opportunity to travel all around Europe but virtually and for the other courses where I'm teaching at the university level, which are master program. I did have the need of redesigning the curriculum totally for making this possible because otherwise they couldn't go out and and you know interviewing people they couldn't get any any contact with other people than their family and their their classmates who were living with them so honestly I had to redesign a little bit the curricula and redesigning of course the project that the team project that they had to work together in terms of design. That's that's so good to know and that that transition went well there are some more learning lessons specifically for us because we focus a lot in on the basics food agriculture food design food systems. In the pandemic, that was the basics that was the vital the grocery stores were empty people were worried about getting food. More food was wasted than ever before but it was also an industry entire industry that became more than an essential service, and it continued to grow more investments made than anytime ever more switches and efficiency and digital to make sure that they would continue those services and new unique ways to continue to help. So there was, I guess in some respects kind of that microscope that lens was cast where the problems are where what is working what isn't working what needs to be fixed but also how essential it is that we get food systems right and we design them in the right way, and so I want to learn from you. Where there's some stark learning lessons where there's some things that you definitely saw and aha moments. Was there also. And I don't know if opportunities to write word but a moment where you saw humanity is really understanding how important food systems are as the basis of all life whereas before maybe that was more of a side thing left up to others to feed us instead of us to know a little bit more about how food systems work. Right. I think, you know, it was a step by step learning I think because because of for many many many affiliation I do have I think I was I was also learning myself on what it was going on and for example I didn't I never realize that for example that closing the school could be like a big a big problem in terms of access to food for me for me for me it was quite clear that there were area in the world in which the people did have access to food only because they went to school they got the opportunity to go to school and to get the food right but then you know I had two kids and I had to face myself the fact that they closed the school and everybody here was struggling about the fact that you know kids were were alone in their houses but at least let me add that they were safe but everybody was concerning about social distance you know and interaction. And in the meantime, because I was working with the with the Foundation Barilla on on on materials for education dedicated to write a food and access to food. I realize that how bigger it was the problem was not just like the school closed you know, it was really like many people, you know facing forward in hunger because of the school closed. And I think behind there are so many. Let me say problems I mean you're right you cannot use opportunity award but if this was a way of understanding I think there was the opportunity also to get more people aware on what was the connection of food with many other sectors as we used to say, as you say as well is food is transversal to all the 17 goals. And sometimes this is so abstract sentence I mean it doesn't make sense right oh yeah I wrote an article about that I just read an article about that or I watch you know presentation and it sounds great but what does it mean. What does it mean. And I think the pandemic was really giving us the opportunity to say concretely unfortunately listening, getting education and quality education. It's connected with food. And that's now we know why, because if the people got education they could get a meal. And this is something so so so big and so I mean as a mother I think it's something that was breaking my heart as well, because on the, you got a paradox you know you have to bring your kids in a, in a healthy environment at home, but then you're not giving them food to survive. This is so paradoxily unfair, let me use the right word. But this is only one of the main example we can bring to see how food it was connected with all of the 17 goals during the pandemic. Something that can be surprising as well I just signed an article writing the fact that people were wasting less in at least in a Western country. And this was surprising like people are wasting less during the pandemic so what is going on. And something that it can be interesting you know discussion is why people are wasting less only because they understood the value of food. Because they were stuck it in their house and they were so afraid about the fact of not having enough food that they were not wasting. So if this is a sign, we just need to work on that because this are like a potentially interesting tool to be used to convince, which is not the right word but to get people more aware and more, you know, concern about the real value of food. So, again, there's some, there's really so many learning lessons that we have and the biggest one is that it's not a siloed or linear approach there's not just one facet there's multiple complexities and really the food systems that are totally involved I mean you just spoke about one facet and that is how many, not just children's but also college level and universities, and you have a nice section in the book I can't remember if it's part three or part four, where they talk about university campus cafeterias and how those need to be redesigned around education and learning and how those interact is so true but also how many students will no matter what age around the world rely on a minimum of two meals a day coming from school cafeteria school facilities, somehow, as well as the feeding of their mind to get them out of ignorance or into another level of understanding on how our world truly works. It's based on multiple things and and just just for our listeners but also to go a little bit deeper, you know, your, your life, your work, your, your degrees are academic but you right have written numerous scientific publications numerous articles and journals, contributions to numerous books I'll put the link to your website in the show note descriptions and people can see part of that's being a doctor and writing a PhD as well because it's about publications it's about getting the awareness out but the other part is is you're really trying to shift the paradigm of how teaching and learning and understanding of systems and these innovations and technology, the whole big picture fits all together, and I want to give kind of an example because the clear focus that we've addressed on now is is really in the academic and the learning aspect of it. We've known during the pandemic, August 21 2020, one of the biggest greatest educators of our time, Sir Ken Robinson passed away, which was a big loss and he was really kind of pushing to change our the way we educate the way we teach the way we do it in a different way that's more receptive to to the learner. And there's an example who someone who is a great designer no longer with us or was a great designer, our buck minister fuller and the buck minister fuller Institute. One of his famous sayings are a couple of those famous sayings I'll tell you. One of them is I have spent most of my life on learning things that were proven not to be true. So somehow in our teaching and our learnings we've learned some things or didn't get to learn things that were just fundamentally incorrect and then we have to spend a part of our life on learning those things and I think what one of the not opportunities but during the pandemic we've seen some of the problems but also some of the systems that we've created that are just not working well for humanity and one is is the food at school in our education higher learning systems period. The other one is is you never change things by fighting the existing reality to change something you have to build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. So those are two fabulous things from buck minister fuller and he really wrote the, the operating manual for spaceship Earth, you know, and in that in on the inside cover of that book. He had he gave us his why, and his why was to make the world work for 100% of humanity in the shortest possible time through spontaneous cooperation without ecological offense or disadvantage of anyone that was written in the 1960s. And he's he's a designer architect, a designer for life and he's given us a why that is good for us all. And I see that same thing, and all of your works all your scientific writings in this book in the case studies that you give us. And to give us new models that are current relative to what we're experiencing in our life to get this paradigm shift for how we realize that our most vital resource is food. We don't design it right if we don't understand how it ties to us then we're, we're really stuffed and so I've hopefully have set up for you to respond to that nicely and that that people can now get the bigger picture. Why do we need to educate around food why are we, you know, why, why is this, but I don't know if you have something to say about that and the vitalness of what your work is and not only design but academic as well. You pointed out the right things the fact that we need concreteness and not anymore abstract concept. I'm coming from the communication studies my first degree was in communication studies and I always understood the fact that you need to communicate with things. When you do advertising sometimes you are concerning on the fact that you are selling and selling sometimes means that you have to redesign the brand redesign the identity redesign. But then something that always you cannot redesign are the values the values that can be only exalted so the human values. Recently I've been thinking so much about human values because as you maybe know for the one who are familiar with the design. We pass through many steps of design right we pass from user center and then experience center it depends really like the design is is defining what is going on in the society so the design change because the society change. Anyway, I believe in the past 10 years we were all of us really agree on the fact that we needed human value center design so we needed a design based on real human values. Recently I've been thinking about that exactly on what you were pointed out before. And I realized that you know education as experiential education and design as a potential method that you can use in education to help students you know to solve them to make new things need maybe a new age and not any more human value center design approach but maybe an agency center. And center design, which means that is not enough to identify the values and excel those values you have to give the people the opportunity to become agent of change. And that means that they need to be able to use those values for them making something that will change the current system otherwise we will continue to get through the actual system. Maybe we will do it what we call it the proactive design we will change something we will do something around or we will adjust it or we will make it something better. We will add one function but this is not exactly what we need we need emergent design we need something that really bring new things in because that's another interesting teaching model that my my professor when I was at the university gave to me and they bring this to every speech I'm doing, which is when you think something is very complex, and it's impossible to solve it. Look at the nature, because it's already solvent. Because the nature is the most complex area and I mean nature means the planet and what is behind that it's already the most complex systems ever but the solution are already there. So as a designer I believe really the concreteness and to go through the what I mean with the real life behind us is exactly what we have to do it. And so this takes time takes a lot of also training for the educators because the educators are not ready for that. My book as well was actually in a way designed for bringing I mean the book is coming in a for example I'm sorry for jumping on this but I think this is really connected with this is a book that comes from a series for marketing and and strategy marketing. Okay. And as you know, marketing and design don't speak the same language. So for me this was a challenge. I really wanted to bring design in marketing, but not as the tool that help marketing to do what it does, but instead to show that the potentiality of the two approaches together can really do can really make the change. And this is why the book is bringing, you know, experts from different field to present the design as an approach as an a method as a way of thinking. And the marketing which is practically based on the fact that had to sell something can add this kind of principles other principle based on the human values based on the agency center design based on the transdisciplinary which is one keyword again very abstract word but what does it mean this in concreteness and what does it mean this in concrete in real life every day how we do transdisciplinary approach. What does it mean that and every time we do multidisciplinary things but never transdisciplinary things as a designer, we only work in transdisciplinary way. So this is something we want to bring and give as a gift to all the other disciplines, definitely. I absolutely love that I'm glad that you brought that up because that's exactly where I want to go so the book is so wonderfully written and I, I think it's beyond an academic level but it's at a level for everyone to read and it's one as a tool it's not one where you'd say, boy this is a boring academic read with a hard to read and difficult to get through it. And I, I don't know if you would think it's a workbook but it is very easy to read it's very interesting to read, and it's multifaceted and it's diverse you have a plethora I don't know the exact count of contributors you have. But it's a numerous, a numerous case studies throughout the, the first one I really want to touch upon is Professor Franco Fascio. Absolutely love that section I loved all the sections but I loved his, his section from the University of gastronomic sciences polenzo campus piazza. You know, he's an assistant professor of industrial design, but doing amazing, crazy cool stuff around food and providing us with different tools to use different lenses to understand and be empowered around that so I'd like you to tell us a little more about him and, and what wasn't he also involved in the systemic food designer is that another website that is providing as an accurate studies is exactly this systemic food design. And it was, as you mentioned, he is a professor of the gastronomic science in polenzo which is, maybe you know as a slow food university. And definitely this contribution is in the first section of the book, which is also another interesting point I want to, I want to underline the fact that book brings the interior supply chain production distribution and commercialization and post consumption, instead of just like focusing on consumption, right. And, and usually this is like the misconception misunderstanding about design design is just the what you eat, what is aesthetically good, and what make you happy. No, design is what the kind of approach and the kind of knowledge and competencies and expertise you need to redesign and you know to see from complexity potential solution. He actually presented this website as an interactive tool that can be also connector between who is producing and who is eating in terms of knowledge and information and also awareness on what is the real chain in. And this website was really working well. He this article, for example, is an update on the first article which was in another book to give us an update on how the website was working, how was actually use it and how the farmers get it also, in a way, good impacts because of the use of this. Then Franco is actually a colleague of mine who is also working with me and the commission of the ID food design coordination where we select the good, or at least the best food design and service systems, object is products every year. And we all of us as this as an idea that it is not the real a food design or interesting food design if it doesn't really include the emerging food action and behavior so definitely this is exactly what we need to create new cultures to get new cultures, you need to work cognitively with people and awareness is not enough, you have to make them, you know, in a, you know, in an environment in a scenario in which they can use their knowledge in and then translating and transforming this in concrete action and behaviors. I absolutely love that section there's a plethora of links throughout the book that you can go to not only obviously the footnotes and the references are all there of where this content comes from, but there is a mind map of a road map of links of where you can go for real world tools people who are working on this thinking on this so I love that about your book, but but I want the reason I tease that first is because now I want to take actually a step back to what you already discussed and you know, this isn't the traditional or what you would expect about marketing and how marketing works specially around food which we kind of know the the the good bad and the ugly on how on how that looks and how it has been done in the past and and what a big movement and industry that is. I want to go more into your insights but also you you overtly don't address this directly in the book but I think through the way you presented and the way you do it. You, you, I think you're giving us some opinions and others who are in the book are giving us opinions as well. Do we need people to market food to us do we need people do we need agencies and lobbyists to market apples and oranges to us and milk and and yogurt. Do we need that is that is that is that something that's vital or would it be more the taste the health benefits the environmental benefits or the true cost accounting. Whether to market to us whether it's destroying our health and our planet or I mean, and maybe I'm in a bubble, and I probably am in a bubble with the people I surround myself around sustainability and food. I watch TV in a commercial or marketing around what beer to drink or what wine to drink or what food to eat or what apple to buy or meet to buy whatever it is I just haven't seen that in decades probably, unless I've been at the airport or somewhere trapped. And I've just seen it by happen sense. And if I have I guarantee I've never went out hunting for that brand to have it because I need to eat it. So is that just me or is that something that's necessary and why don't we use that budget that monies for something more important down the road or is is that not a topic that you cover or do you cover it in a different way. Because it is a design book it doesn't cover this so much but I can answer and I can give you also my perspective that maybe can come out from the many contributors of this book on the fact that nowadays I still believe the sustainability is not a value for the people. As I mentioned before the role of the design is to exalt the human value so I would say that during the pandemic, the human values of family or friendship or like also the connection between people. And the fact of because we did have social distance we realize how important is to be with people and stay with people so let me use the word love that maybe is very is very naive but many of those values came out to us as like oh this those are really the values I really want to preserve for all my life. I'm concerning to the fact that maybe the word sustainability didn't really come out as one of the values you want to bring. So from one side you got the marketing which is producing and and and evolving commercial values which are not human values we need just to identify the two path. One is commercial value one is the human values and they don't actually follow the same the same direction design really works on human values not on commercial values I mean the commercial values comes when you to have a brief and you have to make a new product. But then there is another keyword that that maybe it's super absurd which is the ethic so as a food designer as a designer do I need to follow some ethics ethical purpose in which I'm going to design and produce only, you know something that is sustainable it's a healthy it's sustainable it's good for me it's good for the planet. Let's do that. But again, sustainability it's not nowadays so strong for driving for driving let me use this for driving both design and marketing so what we need to do is to educate people to create the culture of sustainability because the cultures of sustainability can be created only if we're able to to make this values important for the people. So for me for example what was really interesting was a dialogue I did up during the pandemic was going to back to the pandemic with marketing company invited me as a designer to talk about the many issue that happened through the e-commerce. You know e-commerce was so important during the pandemic more than more than before and of course the marketing needed to sell more and the purpose was like how we can sell more you're saying that's the money I'm saying look at the cost of this regeneration to have it and how much cost we need to cover right. And I realized that one of the maybe you don't know but one of the sector that was very impacted by the pandemic was the seafood the fishes because people didn't buy so much seafood through the e-commerce and so the purpose was like how we can sell it. And I studied the seafood and I studied the fishes and I understood that we don't know anything about seafood and fishes as humans as customers as a citizen we have no idea what doesn't mean farming the fishes we have no idea what doesn't mean freshness. We don't recognize a fresh fish from a no fresh fish or we had I mean I realized that the ignorance about this kind of product was so much and then what I said during the dialogue was exactly this before starting marketing. You just need to understand how much people know and how you can bring down in a sustainable perspective of eating seafood like if there are a seasonable way of seeing seafood yes there is how many of us knows the seasonability or the seasons of fishes. So there is so much space to work with and I think market there's space for marketing as well. So I don't really believe we need to cut it and this is the purpose of the book as well is like look what you see is only the little part of we there is a big word around in which you can design you can create new markets as well because market if it is sustainable why not. If there are new products that are sustainable and good for us and the planet why not let's do it. The issue is when you design unsustainable systems you design unsustainable products and you preserve unsustainable environment this is the problem but then if we all work for a purpose this would be perfect. And doesn't matter if you are a designer marketing an advertiser or or whatever the important things is that we do have a direction to follow and I think this is really important this is why we have to train the new professionals because unfortunately we are still trained and I'm sorry now I'm I'm calamity when I'm saying that we're still trying we're still in training in business manager doing a thinking exactly like 50 years ago. So how we can think to change the system if you train the students in economics if you train the students in marketing exactly like 50 years ago. You cannot modify the system you have to re shape their brain in a way that you have to educate them and train them to see out of the box also and not only one direction. And I think this is really the purpose now my course on sustainability design thinking it is in an economic department and it is because it's a challenge. I got students already in a master level and those students were already trained to become manager to become you know producer to become entrepreneurs to become marketing manager so seller. And I'm coming with my course like shaping their brain or shaping their views and see hey there is another war there look at. And and this is not correct they just got me when they are 24 years old. They need to get you know step by step this process of learning starting when they're kids when they're five when they're fun when they're 13 and go on and when they will be professional it will be they will be sustainable natives. Exactly like they are the digital natives nowadays there are people who are born in a world where getting digital devices doesn't really need efforts. And this is exactly what we need for sustainable natives people that are growing in a world where all the tools devices services and systems are sustainable and they got the competences and the knowledge. We're using those without any efforts because we don't need to forget this importance of getting knowledge and competences. Otherwise, also if the word will change and we will not change our perspective on a way of thinking our competences that it will change. We need to work together in this in this process. I love your courses and I love that you do it in that way and for my listeners some some of them will know but some of them don't and and I know you do very well. Some might question well how are you teaching this sustainable food design and what you're teaching in economics umbrella in an academic setting. Well, the key fact is the world's oldest. Well functioning and longest running successful economy is an agrarian society which is tied to food food is the. Not only the biggest impact on sustainability nature environment human health and suffering, but it's also the biggest economy that our world's ever seen and it's still existing and thriving even in a pandemic. We've continually grew up because it's an essential function of life and that's one reason why you so nicely fit in economics but out of all the models of economic models that are out there in the world. It's really sustainable, or to think in that direction at a college university level. Doctorate level, you really need to understand economics, the bad economics of the bubbles the issues with economics but more so, you also need to understand what economic models work and only one that really truly works as ecological economics and will get us. Well into the future. And, and so those people who are who are really well versed and not greenwashing or kind of just saying for fact, should be pretty well burst and economics and what are the economic models that will take, take us into sustainable resilient sustainable future through multiple generations seven 1020 generations into the future where we can be within the safe operating spaces of planetary boundaries and we can address those social and economic needs of our world. Through the lens of food and through the lens of more environmental social governance, which has a big part in food and basics, essential services and so I love that you do that and I speak about economics and tie it to food and how we should look at our models. One big model that I'd like to address and then we'll go more into food systems design and the systems disgusting in your book is really the simple fact that this this whole thing is is super complex and the reason we need to talk about it in a different way is it's the basics of our life and it is a model for us to get into different learnings and abilities to get us into future generations for sustainability, but it involves innovation and you talked about food waste and you talked about how things are really in this industry of agriculture food beverages industry seafood industries, we're still stuck in the industrial revolution we're about 200 years behind on advanced processes sustainability efficiency digitization the way we pay our employees migrant workers and things. And during the pandemic, we saw, even though on home usage that the waste went down. We saw an uptick worldwide that the food waste went up to 40% food waste and in some areas even higher during this pandemic, because there weren't enough workers to harvest and process the food so it was being chilled back under in the agricultural sector. And also the closing of gastronomy and food processing facilities. Because they didn't have enough employees and the social distancing and those things in place in the infrastructure of those food systems to be able to to keep business as usual to keep the doors open. We're in that time of a pandemic because they're not up to speed with where our world needs to be in this area, and food design and that systemic principles that you speak about in your book in a few sections. MIT has a section in the book. Many are talking about systems thinking systems designed the entire world. The world trade organizations, World Trade Organization, WHO, UN FAO, World Economic Forum, 2018, all of them went from a linear siloed approach to solving grand challenges to systemic systems designed dynamic modeling to solve our problems. And in your book, you have links you referred to Fritzl-Papper, you refer to a symbiotic earth you refer to MIT and many others the Meadows report and the limits to growth and different things where we think about systems. I want you to tell us about in your book, why this is such a vital point and how you're helping people embrace this complexity and this thing that we get scared about to make this transitions to put on a different lens to see systems and how they work in our lives. Well, first of all, because as I mentioned before, I really believe the two keywords of the new age of this next 10 years will be transdisciplinary and empathy. And I don't think those are the skills and the competencies that were never, never, never included in any curricula in which me, you or our generation were trained at whatever it was, high school or university or primary school. I think because of this, of this gap and lack, I believe we are now in the situation we are because we were not trained to use our empathy dynamics or empathy competencies, which I believe is like paramount for the creation of a sustainable perspective or global sustainable perspective, but also a local, because many of us are completely disconnected with the community where we live and so activating empathy with the community where you live, it is already like a big, a big, a big change that you can create, you know. On the other side, transdisciplinarity and that's also one of the key words I use in the, was suggested by the editor, of course, but I decided to include it in the, in the title of the book is the fact that for many times and for many years, so we were just like focusing on interdisciplinarity, which is something different. Interdisciplinarity, there is also always someone that we, because if you put together people with different expertise or different sector, let's, I put this example in the book, which I think is simple. You know, you got a doctor, a farmer, a policymaker and a designer, you put them in a room without saying anything, they will be in silence and that's a multicultural room. There is no, I'm sorry, a multidisciplinary multicultural room. Okay, it's interesting, but nobody was doing anything that interdisciplinary, it's when you ask them and you give them a question to or some problem to solve, and you ask them, okay, can you please talk about it, can you just discuss it and then the farmer, the designer, the policymaker, or the nutritionist will start talking. We are sure that there will be a leader in the discussion, we are sure there will be someone that will not have enough space to speak and there will be interaction, interdisciplinarity for sure, but the priority of someone could be that become stronger than other priorities so this is exactly the system in which we are leading. The transdisciplinarity is different is when you take the lens, the investigation lens of someone that does have a different background than yours. You understand the problem by using their own, their lens, so their view, their perspective, but then give the lens back and you continue with your own expertise. If we all of us do the same process together, we will have a win-win situation where everybody will get the priority satisfied, everybody will be happy with the solution, there will be not someone getting more power than others. The transdisciplinarity, it's a very, very strong process to be used and sometimes we started in the school to teach by team project, by challenge-based learning. There are also specific academic and deductive model of teaching that helps to become more aware and more able to use transdisciplinarity, but maybe it's not enough. We just need to get this kind of process more actively used in the professional life as well because only in this way we will have solutions that are fine for farmers and fine for policy makers. We'll be fine for marketing manager, but we'll be fine for customers as well. So in this way we will be able to get the kind of balances and in this way I believe design can help and can be an interesting tool that not everybody understands. And I want to just point it out if I can that from the book, the idea of creating a no-profit organization with other co-founders came out quite easily because we decided that this is the time in which we have to tell people in gastronomy, producer, policy makers. Design is a superpower, so it's something that you need to use it because not because it's just like how to make it, but instead it's giving you the why you make it. You mentioned this at the beginning, the why is more important than the how. So the why you make it, it's the transdisciplinarity approach. Understanding and then designing something that is win-win for everybody and make this systemic approach the way how we have to work nowadays. There's no other way to say we were too much linear in the past, now we need to be more systemic in what we do. So the organization we created is called FORC and the name is giving us already like the idea of what we want to do because FORC means for food design opportunities, research and knowledge. And this is exactly what we want to give to people in every sector related with food, but not only food. This kind of knowledge, this kind of understanding, this kind of also I would like to say view of the fact that the things can be done differently, which I think is important. Yeah, and I definitely wanted to, I'm glad that you brought that up because that new venture and I'm glad that it came up through the book. But you know, FORC really as you said stands for food design opportunities, research, knowledge came up through Barcelona Design Week, am I correct? We launched during the Barcelona Design Week, in reality we are five co-founder, three of them are based in Spain, one is based in Lisbon, so in Portugal and myself in Italy. And I'm happy to share with you the link of the organization with the name of the co-founder that with me are in a way accepting the challenge. We really want to, for example, I mean, something we didn't mention today, but because there is no really an article on this in the book, which I think maybe is a gap in something we can do in the next book, it's gastronomy. There is one side dedicated to the food experience, so we talk about robotic, we talk about digital approach in the food production and food consumption. But then how we're going to train the chef and the cooks of the present and the future to make their product, their culinary art product more sustainable and healthier for us and for the planet. So how design can help in this, how design can be a tool for educating, can be a tool for transmitting knowledge in this term. So with Mariana Edler, who is actually a designer, with Antonio Barrera, with Pedro in Alvarez and Ricardo Bonaccio, we really have this as a mission to provide something that can be helpful to food, but also to provide to the design field the opportunity of working in food in a more sustainable way. You're really key for the Future Food Institute and around the academic around. So there's Future Food Institute and there's a Future Food Academy and you're really responsible for creating designing the curriculum and making sure it's driving and going in the right direction. And I'm glad because it's been an institute that's worldwide, had a presence, very diverse, they're trying to take everything from the entire world to look at cultures. What does food look like? What's the different lens in this transdisciplinary? What you exactly say is how can we get to show those students the lens of others, but also then give them the experience to create and design something that will be regenerative and long lasting that's very sustainable. There, I think we've teased your book enough. I want to ask you for one last little maybe the take away that you want us to have the most out of your book because I don't want to give it all away. I want people to go out and buy it. I want them to use it to find it as a plethora of resources, not just because I wrote the prologue. No, I'm just teasing. But really because it is a workbook. It's a plethora of knowledge and it's anyone who's in this area, anybody who wants to know a full picture what the food systems look like and how you can contribute, how you can be a consumer or someone who plays an active part. This is really the plethora of case studies and people who are actually doing this at the moment on the ground and setting in the pathways and I'm glad that you said, yeah, maybe there's a gap or we left this out in gastronomy or there's things. But overall, it's the most well rounded work that I've seen in a long time and I read, I read four to five food books a week and other books. And so I think I have my ear to the ground for for many respects so I'm very thankful for that but what would you say is the biggest takeaway that you want people to have out of the book and sections that you would like to make them aware of and your overall insight. Thank you, thank you, Mark also for mentioning the Future Food Institute where I joined actually in the last fall and it's giving me, I'm not the one creating but I got the honor of joining the Future Food Institute and in the many activities that they are doing. And I believe this is giving me the bridge for my takeaway and because I believe that we need to believe that not only the youth, but everybody can do something for this situation. So the Future Food Institute, as you as you know, they are training the future food and climate shapers by knowing also that the youth and the young people are very active for the change but it's also true that not many young people as well many adults know the connection between food and climate change as well the connection with food with many other sectors. So my takeaway is really this to take the responsibility to be informed to take the responsibility as educator to transfer the right knowledge and competences to our students. This book I hope will be one day the book a professor will choose to help their students to think differently to get through the food field and say oh food is this also. Or food that can be read in a different way or those are the connection between food and other sectors. I really want this book become a little part maybe of an impact. So I hope this book will create like an impact that will be able to change the world that we live nowadays. It definitely will and you need to design for it otherwise it will never happen and so that's why I know for a fact this is a vital book that there's there's not that many out there with such timely information and projects and case studies that have been done and going on some very enlightening wisdoms in this book. I have four last five or five. Thanks all the contributors because this is not my own book but it is an edited book I just want to underline this. So as you mentioned before they are like almost 18 contributors who were so kind and impatient also because we did this during the pandemic. So the time was not easily also for being connected together. But I think also because of the pandemic we were really really strong on making this possible and I'm happy this book was able to come out now when I would like to say we see the future coming out. I want to be positive. I hope this will be like the time of regenerating but also the time to rethinking and so I really, really thanks all the contributors and all the authors that are with me in this adventure and this book adventure. Yeah, I thank them as well because it's fabulous and it just goes how good of an editor and how good of a designer you are to pull together such fabulous people to come up with this work. I have five questions left for you. Two are pretty hard still. And then the last three are kind of easy so I'm going to let you slide off in the end. The first one is do you feel like you're a global citizen and how would you feel about a world with the removal of nations and borders and divisions of humanity, one from another. The reason I ask you this is not only because of the transdisciplinary aspect of your work, but also the global aspect of your work. The pandemic was a global citizen, food is a global citizen, air, water is a global citizen species are and definitely the pandemic was. And so I really want to get your views and feelings and how this ties into your work and also into your educating. I really believe that, yeah, there is a global world, but you can start and you have to start from the local perspective by actively working with your own community. And with, you know, little butterfly effect that can produce enormous impact. So I strongly believe on working with your community. Sometimes, you know, we are so focused on, oh, now I can do it. And instead you can just need to teach the people around you that the forest nation is connected with the food you eat every single day. So just start from little things, you know, you choose one food instead of another. You are making an impact that is globalized. So let's start educating people in this way. I love that I really do love that and there's this big movement has been for last 10 years to, and it's really picking up steam local futures local economies. It doesn't mean that we're not global citizens doesn't mean we're not all crew members on the spaceship earth. But it means that we can have strength when we fix our local communities are local food webs, a lot better than we can on this bigger perspective. And even in the book you talk about local. So there's some difference of local and global and in this mix terminology local. The next question is the last hardest question I have for you and it is the burning question. WTF, and many people have been saying this, thinking as the swear word during this pandemic and these crazy times but it's not the swear word. It's what's the future, and it's really more so what's the future is the plural. And I really want to know specifically for you what's the roadmap what's the future for you and what do you think is the biggest way for us moving forward. That's a big question. I'm not sure I do have a big answer for this question I think I, I do have my own answer which is, for me the future will be to intensify the education, intensified education is really to get all the resources I do have for convincing from all level of education so I'm talking about teachers but I'm talking about also minister that are in charge of, you know, including food education for example in school. I'm actually really really, I want to be positive I'm really pushing to get this kind of knowledge coming out and becoming part of the, you know, background everybody will have. So for me the future will be will be this people more informant a better demand so demand that is educated and, and of course, for doing this we need to work to a lot, all of us, and to bring also our good practices to people that maybe before taking care of this, again, we go back to the beginning of this of this dialogue, the pandemic gave us the opportunity to rethink, because we think we need to reboot and because we're rebooting we need to, you know, to see how we can also bring other people in this kind of process of change. So that means convincing other people doing that I really want to see a good future. I think we are so scared now that we are able to be convinced that soon on a different that a different word is possible so education is the first step for sure. Absolutely love that and that's so important. I want to kind of ask you before I get in the last three questions. Um, which are mainly takeaways for my listeners want to ask you, there's been some really interesting things happening since 2015 but also since 2020. Now the United Nations in the world economic form have really stepped up to the plate with the UN food system summit, more food events and, and you're in Italy so the FAO is in Rome and there's a lot of things going around food and agriculture in that respect. But what is your participatory level how are you participating in all this and what is your lens and your view of how are we going in the right direction as this positive and is it truly this opportunity for us all to have a voice at the table the big kitchen of the world. Well, you mentioned the food system summit. I can mention many other big more movement or I would like to say processes that were already activated like the green deal the farm to fork and I mean, now right now the G 20. And the fact that Italy is the president of the G 20 this year is getting like the perfect the perfect environment for bringing the attention to food and climate change so this is the point that why don't we put together all of those. And we use the knowledge I mean the food system something can actually is based on food of course but then bringing food bringing the climate change bringing those kind of topic to the G 20 has to be a priority. So, let's see if this combination of big event and combination of big people, let's call it that. But in a way can be also a good connection of the dots, because this has to be the purpose right so bring the knowledge from the food system summit to the G 20 for example or bringing what we have it from the green deal and the European policies. Back to the discussion or I want to keep in this kind of loop of thinking also the new European bow house that was launched recently in terms of getting creativity on the way how we do things. And so for me this is the perfect ending. Why don't we use creativity to make it something new. So connecting all of those big events and big purposes I think is that always the best and not maintaining them disconnected and getting them as as just like you know single spots that works independently. And thanks for sharing that view with us and the last three questions are for my listeners if you had one message that you could depart my listeners as a sustainable takeaway that has the power to change their life what would it be your message and that's okay if it's even two messages. Everybody, it's creative and be creative is like, it's like for you going to the gym, you know you want a good body you go to the gym, and you do practices same happened for creativity. So we just need to practice and the best environment to do it is food and sustainability so being creative there really works. So we just need to do practices and one or two what do you want to know definitely and I think also the fact of the word sustainability as I told you before it's very it's very abstract sometimes I don't like it and I think is also over overuse it so it's something that maybe we just need to change it sometimes. But then I bring this word to your real life and think about it, what is sustainable for you and think about you during the panemia think about you during the lockdown and really answer to this question what was sustainable for you. And you will get the answer what does it mean sustainability just make it this like kind of mantra or something like your vision in it will help you all the time to see what is the right direction to follow. What should young innovators young designers young academics or professors in your field be thinking about if they're looking for ways to make a real impact. Well, I would like to say to make a big impact they have to work collaboratively so first of all not to think that they can do it alone, they can do individually but they just need to bring other people in. And in this is important specifically also for my, my, my future women professional future women designer and women I'm sorry to bring the gender issue in but I think also the women need an extra help and support for understanding that it is not only to be part of what we can do it but is also to make you think themselves so definitely let's support them and give them the opportunity to to envision a different future as well. I love that. And the last question is have what have you experienced or learned in your professional journey so far that you would have loved to know from the start. That's become is becoming more and more difficult those questions in. I think connect, you know, I always thought, and academically also this seems to be a limit that working in many sectors and with many organizations with many different people with different background was a problem or at least was a limitation because sometimes also academically people are asking you, for example, publishing on searching and one only topic right on one only sector to become an academic. I believe now I'm more than 40 and 44. I think this was my superpower. And I think I was in a way trying to define this with words and I remember starting say I'm like always are no satisfied that I never had satisfaction by being pioneering which is sounds good but is always bad like I'm a really how we say like unsatisfied pioneer know someone that really want to do something new all the time. And I think this is really sounds so negative. And then I decided to say that I'm an insatiable visionaries or something that need to be always visionary in. And I think this is possible positive positive so definitely I learned this and I hope to be able to continue doing that. And then there's no other way for me to work with so I need to go in many I'm like a sponge. And I don't think this is a limitation. It is something that is giving me the opportunity to explore in many many sectors and I think this is important in food it's paramount. So there is no other way to work in. Sonia, thank you so much for letting us inside of your ideas it's been a sheer pleasure we could talk for hours about all the things you've done and you're planning to do. I'm done with my questions unless you've forgotten to tell us something or left something out this will be your chance to tell us but otherwise I really thank you. Thank you thank you for this invitation and all for this question that we're super difficult at the end. No problem I again it's it's was a real honor to review your book and to be part of the pro prologue transdisciplinary case studies on design for food and sustainability. I'm going to put all the notes and the show description and the links. I want people to go out there and get it. It's a wonderful work and I thank you very much I appreciate it Sonia have a wonderful day. Thank you bye.