 Good morning. Well, it's actually noon on a given Thursday here at Think Tech. And we have Carl Ackerman, Dr. Carl Ackerman from Punahoe, who is an historian and who wrote a book about k-drama and the pleasurable aspects of k-drama as an expression of Korean culture. And we're going to talk about that today. Welcome to the show, Carl. Thank you, Jay. And I was just talking to one of your engineers, Eric, who I said this to, that your show is so wonderful, because like the Simon and Garfunkel song, you take the time to make the moment last, you know? And it's not one of these, you know, so often in our lives today, there are quick sound bites, and there are, you know, people are always in a hurry, you know, they even have a hard time answering emails and things like that. But your show makes this moment last, as Simon and Garfunkel so well pointed out, dating myself to be a 60s guy. So there we go. Well, Simon and Garfunkel were my classmates through high school. And in fact, I was a classmate of Simon in college. Garfunkel went to Columbia and Simon went to my college, which was Queens College. And they had a little high school band, I forget the name right now. And they actually had an all city hit. And one day, they approached me in class, and they said, Jay, you know, you have a nice voice. Why don't you join our band? I said, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not going to do that. I have to go to law school. Jay, that's, you know, there's synergy every place, but this was a great one. Oh, that's wonderful. Hey, school girl in the second row. That was the name of the hit song. Never mind. Why did you write about K-drama? That's really off your beat, isn't it? It is. You know, as a historian of Russia, what happened was that my wife got very interested in K-drama. And, you know, we decided that if we wanted to do something together at night every evening, we should watch something together or read together or something. And it turned out that I got hooked on K-drama. And the whole point of this book, K-drama Voyage, and it's a nice book because it has a nice picture, a yin and yang picture of the American flag and the Korean flag, is that it tells people what they can deduce about Korean culture by watching K-drama. And I think you get a vast array of different parts of the culture from music and song and dance and, you know, the K-pop syndrome, too, things like conglomerates and how Koreans feel about the environment and their politics, et cetera, et cetera. Well, I mean, it's very interesting because K-drama had been on Hawaii television for a long time. And if you like soaps, you know, love K-drama because the soaps are so soapy. They're soapier than any American soap. And furthermore, you know, the actors are also perfect. They're perfect. They're very good-looking. They dress so well. They look good. They look young and vital. And they exude all this emotional power. It's really total soap. And I think they had a kind of corner on the market for a long time. Maybe they still do in terms of those, you know, midday soaps, which I think you can still see on Hawaii television. But I think what it tells you is that the Korean people, the Korean culture, very emotional, strong feelings and romance, tons of heavyweight romance, the kind that could break your heart. Am I right about that? You're very right about that. And I think that, you know, I'm hesitant to make, you know, general characteristics of an entire group of people. But I am, and I think you captured this well, you know, Jeff Chung writes a column in our local Honolulu newspaper every week on Sunday about what's going on in the soap operas and or in the dramatic series. And what I think about K-drama is that, you know, it's extraordinarily well-acted. You know, there, if you go to Korea, you will see a plethora of beauty shops. And both men and women are concerned about their skin and things like this. And it's, you know, their skin on these Korean dramas are, as you say, they're picture-perfect. And it's remarkable, you know, especially after I get through looking in the mirror or something, you know. But, you know, it's actually remarkable. And let me just share something with you, Jay, because the, you know, there's a lot being made right now of the squid game. But, you know, my favorite Korean drama, and I picked them all from Netflix, figuring that they had one screening process already, was crash landing on you, which is about, you know, a woman who is a very successful entrepreneur in South Korea, and she gets blown off course, and she goes, you know, she's hand-gliding, and she goes to North Korea, and she is captured by this group of North Korean soldiers. And it's how they get, you know, they really admire her in many ways. And she's anodody, and they bring her back into South Korea. And I, you know, I use that because my book is not just about, you know, the Korean experience, although that's what it's largely about, because that's the theme of the book. But I also compare it, you know, the North Koreans to, you know, basically what I saw in Cuba and in the former Soviet Union being a star in Russia, and how totalitarian it doesn't seem to work. And then you, you know, go a couple miles south, and you have this vibrant soul, whereas the North Koreans are trying to just heat their houses, right? And so, but a crash landing on you is really a favorite of mine. And by the way, there's a friend of mine who's a professor, an early modern European historian, and I'm not talking about Peter, because we know he's English in 19th century, and he's a wonderful man. He's another man who allows people to have time with them, which is really wonderful. Shout out to Peter Hoffenberg, history professor at UH, who is the progenitor of this show. History will show you how, history is here to help. And you know, he's, what I call Peter is a mensch extraordinaire. So there we go. Combining those two herbs, whether I love it or not. But anyway, my friend who's an early modernist, and you know, her focus is mostly on early modern European history, and she's an expert on the Renaissance. She loves that drama too. So it means that, you know, it's, it's, it's, that's the nice thing about the Cade drama is that it applies to many aspects of life. And you get this universality, and it's like, without, with more diversity, obviously, but it's like the American television shows and movies more appropriate in the 1950s, early 1960s, where people really spent some time developing plots, and, you know, going in for close-ups to see what people are thinking. And because of the Korean culture, there's a lot of time, and we started this sort of with the emphasis on time, where you actually get to see the people thinking. And the, you know, the director gives time for this. And I think that is just absolutely beyond the pale. That's, that's why the complexion is so important. It's that close-up. And you're always struck with, gee, you know, I don't have a complexion like that. I don't know anybody with a complexion like that. How do they do that? But you know the thing, you know, if you start unpacking culture in any country, you have to start the center of it is always the nature of the family, the way the family interacts, the way the husband, wife, spouses interact. And I think K-drama shows us a lot about that. It's not just the romance. It's the essential connection in the family. Am I right about that? You are right about that. And I spend a considerable amount of time, in fact, a chapter is devoted to the position of women in Korean families. And that is really, there's one particular Korean drama that emphasizes the notion of a CEO in the corporate world. And I would say that the family is, you know, there's a very strong family tie. The honorifics are much greater in Korea than they are in the United States. And both in terms of corporate hierarchy and actually family hierarchy and age difference, you know, in terms of someone being older than you, there are all sorts of, you know, ways that you speak to people. And, you know, often in Korean dramas, people will say, why are you dropping the formality? You know, you don't know me that well, right? And I kind of like that. I mean, it's kind of the old, you know, I'm not calling your friends. You know, I've had my daughters have friends that have come in and doorhouse and said, hello, Carl. And I said, and I have to say to them, no, I'm not Carl. I'm Dr. Ackerman. You know, I'm, you know, unless they call me, which they do in Hawaii, Uncle Carl, that's a whole different thing. But you know, the honorifics are quite great. And since, you know, one of the key, I think, items about this, and I spent some time in my book talking about corporate life and using, you know, various k-dramas to explore this. And the way the book is structured is I discuss a particular k-drama like Crash Landing on You. And then I go on to another and there are themes that I discuss based on this specific k-drama. But I spent an enormous amount of time on the corporate structure and how that really, people almost, you know, universally in career are looking for that corporate job that will allow them to have, you know, employment throughout their lives, which is also a good way to shift to the very popular squid game. And, you know, if you watch the squid game, which is basically about people who are voluntarily going and playing these children's games, and of course the problem with these children's games is if you lose, you get shot. And so it's pretty horrific. And I would suggest that a squid game doesn't tell you as much as other dramas do about the Korean culture, but it's a very popular drama. And I give kudos to the director, etc., etc., who made this, but Why is it so popular? I mean, the people, people are dying by the carload in the squid game in a bloody fashion. And it's so totally unfair. Why is it popular? Well, interestingly enough, people sign on for this. And there's a part in, I guess, in the second or third episode where, and this is the interesting thing about this. And whoever wrote this, you know, was a genius because what they do is they have a vote, you know, the people who are in the dorms and the participants about whether they want to continue or not continue, and they vote not to continue. And so the people are all dropped off back in their locations. But what happens is because the there's a part of the Korean economy that's so bad that they'd elect to come back to the squid game because of course the ultimate prize is a huge amount of money. But, you know, and this is where I wish that Sir Peter Haufenberg was with us jail, though you and I could discuss this just as well. I think too is that I think the squid game in many ways, and forgive me for making this parallel, but I just came out of a lecture that was given by Deborah Lipset, you know, the famous person who, you know, won a case against Holocaust deniers. And she's now being appointed by President Biden. We'll see if she's confirmed by the Senate, but to be a special ambassador to combat anti-Semitism in the United States and other places. And there was Michael Berenbaum, who is a professor at the American Jewish University, and even the president of American Jewish University, Jeffrey Herbst. They were all on this wonderful thing. And I saw this, you know, just a couple of hours ago, and we were talking about the singular nature of the Holocaust and how it has to be used very carefully in fighting anti-Semitism. And they all were, you know, just adroit. But what's interesting about the squid game is that when people are captured, they're gassed. When they go into the dorms, they're given numbers. When they're shot and died, they're sent to a crematorium. So, you know, this can't be accidental. I mean, it can't be that the director was unaware of all these things that, you know, especially the numbers and the gassing of the people. And they're gassed not to kill them, they're gassed to make them sleepy so that they could go into this special island without any knowledge of where they were. But, you know, the bloody nature of this, I think, is akin to what the director is trying to do, is I think, or the screenwriter, maybe I'm putting my own images onto this drama, but is trying to point out that the utter degradation of the people who were poor in Korea and their lack of hope. And then there always are alone sharks where they get into trouble. And they also expose the, which comes out in very many k-dramas about the, you know, the selling of organs, things like this. But I think really what make, make, make, what may make this popular is the universality of this, that this is not just, could not occur any, in any nation, not specifically just South Korea. But the things I talk about in my book, for example, when I'm talking about business or women and things like this, these are, these are really things that are prone only, I think it's many ways to, to the Korean culture. And I always like it when the Koreans after work go out to, you know, eat chicken and drink, shoju and beer. And, you know, when you're, when you're, when you're like, for example, Jay, I don't know who of us is older, but let's say that I'm older, you would have to take your cup when you're drinking and turn it to the side to drink it and then come back. And, you know, these sort of little things that are so much a part of Korean culture are just absolutely fabulous. And, you know, I just spoke to a friend of mine and he said, Carl, you know, after reading your book, I'm going to try to read all of these, I'm trying to, you know, watch all of these dramas. But you know, people have to understand that, you know, Lynn and I have been doing this for about a year. We've watched many dramas, not all of which are in this, in this book. And Squid Game is not in the book, I'm sorry to say, because the book came out when Squid Game started to be projected on Netflix and other places. Well, on Squid Game, and I've seen this in discussion of the program of the series on, I guess it's Netflix, that this touches, yes, something that is universal. But what, what the, and I really am interested in your references to the Holocaust, there are too many accidental things to make that deniable. But what we have is people who are at the lower end of middle class or devolving into underclass, they can't get a job that will support them. They can't take care of their families. Their families are this, are, are dividing and degrading. Their kids are not happy with them. Their spouses are divorcing them. They have no money. They're embarrassed and humiliated all through. And they get involved with the wrong people, borrowing money and the like from gangsters. And they're in terrible shape. And at this point, the Squid Organization approaches them. And at this point, they're taken away in a limousine that gasses them and, and they appear again in the, in the context of these, these barracks where they are exposed, should take, but required to play these games. And if they fail to present well at the game, to win at the game, they're killed. So what that speaks of is desperation. And it's not one person. It's not a fiction involving just a few people, you know, in the society. It's touching on a lot of people who have failed to stay within the middle class, or to be within the middle class in Korea today, and who are devolving into the underclass who are becoming impoverished and disadvantaged with no safety net to help them. And they are desperate. Now, this is not limited to Korea. This is a statement of how the government or better yet, you know, the Squid is a private organization. It's a corporation that makes money. It's like a gambling corporation out of Las Vegas, kind of. And it kind of shows you it's a, it's a pristine keyhole into what might happen in the future. When people can't have a reasonable life, they will be subject to, you know, this kind of manipulation and this, this kind of desperate, desperate situation. And I think that really rings true. I don't know if it's particularly ringing true with the Korean viewers of it, but I think you could make a parallel in any country now, today. And I think Jay, you hit it on the head. I think this, you know, if I were to rewrite this book, would I include a Squid game? Probably not. And because I think it's so universal. And I think it's so, even though it's very popular, what I'm trying to get at in the book is, you know, things specifically that are really focused on Korea. And let me, let me, and, you know, going back to the Squid game just for one moment is that there's one character comes from Pakistan. And he's an emigrant. He may not have proper papers. And the interaction between the Koreans and this particular gentleman, whose first name is Ali, and I think his last name is Abdul, if I'm mistaken, you know, God hopes I can remember these characters names. But, you know, that also presents something about, you know, the other in society. And of course, in the United States, we have this going on also, of course. And, you know, the interesting thing about this, the akin to the Holocaust is, you know, it might even be more parallel to the former Soviet Union under Stalin because, you know, you're not isolating one group of people that's quote unquote alien to the culture, right, right, the way, you know, the Germans, the Nazis and the SS describe the Jews. But German Jews, I may add. It is the, it is in the Soviet Union, you have the gulag that's set up not for anybody, but Russians really, I mean, there were many Russian Jews there also. But, you know, it's, it's people who disagreed with the system, you know, in a political framework. So there's always of getting at this, but a lot of it is motivated by, you know, this economic undercurrent. But let me, let me tell you about one chapter that I think that you in particular will find interesting is, you know, the Koreans more than has such a high rate of literacy. And what cracks me up about Korean dramas is you'll have a thug, you know, I mean, somebody who is, you know, a loan shark and he'll be sitting in his office reading a book. And I mean, I mean, did we see anyone from the Godfather reading a book? I mean, you know, that's just uncanny. And there's there's a couple of things I do. Romance is a bonus is a bonus book. It's about publishing. And it's a wonderful story. But one of my favorite stories in the book is about the Chicago typewriter, which is, you know, in some ways about a typewriter where a ghost comes and helps do some of the writing and the and the and the setting is between 1930 and the current period. And there's these three people who go back in time and things like this. And another chapter that I thought that I found delightful to write. And, you know, anyone who's a writer understands that that, you know, saying delightful to write sometimes is delightful. Sometimes it's just onerous because you're trying to figure out what the right sentence is. And it is about Korean religion. And that is really a mix mash of a variety of different things, including the Catholic Church, the Protestant Church, and this sort of grim reaper mythological framework that all come together in different Korean dramas. And it's absolutely fascinating. And another another chapter that I love writing was about all the new startups among young young Korean people trying to find the American dream and often they do. And so, you know, quite frankly, I dedicate this book to the Korean people, and it's because for two reasons. One is, I just love K drama. I mean, I didn't think I would, you know, I'm kind of a, I mean, the things I really like are, you know, I, you know, you know, when I think of movies, I think of, you know, movies like The Great Escape or something. And I think of like these large movies are Lawrence of Arabia, for all its issues, you know, these grand panoramic things. But K drama is really extraordinarily well made. And I may add that I give credence to K-pop in one of the, in one of the, in one of the chapters. And if you, if you don't mind, it'll take just a second, but I want to, I want to read to you something that comes from a one particular drama. It's called Cinderella with the, with the four nights. And it's about a woman who's assigned to help these three really kind of, in some ways, spoiled rich kids of a conglomerate. Again, they see the conglomerate comes in. And one guy who's trying to help her. But one of the three sons is a K-pop singer. And you get to learn all about K-pop. And one of the famous groups in K-pop is BTOB. I don't know if they even pronounce it, but I have BTOB. And they have a song that they composed in 2016. And it's played throughout this K drama. And by the way, music is a part of it. And here it is. And it's sort of, you know, this kind of romantic thing that will appeal to I think anyone from like 18 to about 40. And once you get over that age, you're married, or you probably don't, it's not such a great appeal, but it says, are you going to sing it for us? No, I'm not going to sing it, but it's for you. I'm just going to read some lines for you. It says, I can only see you. My heart only points to you like magic. My heart trembles. I've never felt this way before. Why did you come now? You're my destiny that I've waited for. You're so precious. And, you know, you think as an American, especially of our ages, you think, oh, that's kind of a little, little sappy. But then I decided, okay, I am going to go back to the Beatles. And I went back to the Beatles in 1963 and compared Love Me Do. And here's the first stanza of Love Me Do by the Beatles, 1963. Love, Love Me Do. You know I love you. I'll always be true. So please, Love Me Do. Whoa, Love Me Do. So I mean, this is kind of universal. And I end this chapter by saying this. A year or so ago, I'm reading now, this is page 130. Sir Paul McCartney, firmly of the Beatles, was commenting on the huge success of the international Korean group BTS. And when asked by his interview about this group's apparent affinity to his Beatles song, Hey Jude, his explanation for this affinity was that the song had simple and repetitive lyrics. So it's this sort of stuff that just, I mean, you know, if you can get out of these k-dramas without loving them, I challenge anyone to watch k-drama for a while. I mean, and really give it its due diligence. Once again, I should also, you know, one of the things that people don't always do is that in the preface of the book, I have a wonderful woman who wrote, who was a Broadway dancer and, you know, still sings locally in Hawaii named Shari Nakamura. And she gave a brief interlude and she talks about her love for k-drama. And in the back of the book, I'll put this up like this, in the back of the book, I don't know if people read it. On the back of the k-drama book, the k-drama voyage, I have an eloquent scholar of Asian history who worked under Sharon Minicello at the University of Hawaii, PhD, and doctor, a guy named Robert Stratton, who has just completed a book on East Asia, a textbook, and he writes the backboard on the book too. And, you know, his new textbook, which is, you know, much more erudite than I am, is coming out soon. But I wanted to give Shari Nakamura and Robert Stratton their due diligence. Well, I'd like to, you know, put this in a kind of continuum. I imagine that k-drama did not appear magically, that there were strains in Korean culture before, even before television, that preceded it. And that there were things happening in performing arts in Korea that suggested these very same, you know, approaches and areas of coverage and emphasis and so forth. Am I right about that? You know, I have, I'm not a historian of Korea, so I can't really accurately answer that, but I would suspect that, you know, that going back to the great Chinese dynasties and their history of, which occupied most of the Asian continent, that their notion of drama, which may have been imbued with, you know, Confucian ideology and also may go back to the wonderful Joseon dynasty having plays. You know, you probably can, you probably can trace it to that. I would, I would suspect like the Bollywood industry in India, that this k-drama industry, you know, there are people that, you know, I have friends that are, have friends that, I don't know, anyone directly that has done this, it's in my immediate circle, but that goes strictly to Seoul and other places, just to look and see about the creation of k-drama, you know, while shopping for cosmetics at the same time. So, you know, and, and of course, you know, the Korean food is just, I mean, it's very hard to, to go into any kind of k-drama without examining the food and always, you know, as a guy that, you know, should be losing weight, I try not to look at it too carefully, but you know, there's one k-drama called chocolate and as you can imagine, it's, it begins with a little boy making chocolate for a friend of his and through his, through his mom and it's all about, you know, food and the culture of food and it's, it's, you know, what these k-dramas do is to repeat myself a bit is to give you a good sense of what Korean society is about and I mentioned my love of k-drama, that was one of the motivations of the book, but also Lynn, my wife Lynn, my oldest daughter Laura and my youngest daughter Jennifer, the four of us went, I think it was three years ago now to Korea and we were treated, just South Korean, we're treated so well and you know, I mentioned in the book, you know, what it's like to have, you know, an enemy just, you know, within feet of your country, you know, and in the DMZ and when we were going on that, you know, Freedom Road, I think it's called, you know, up to the DMZ, we had this wonderful tour guide that was on our bus, you know, it was a bus tour and he said, you know, in English, you talk about yours or mine, but what I'm going to talk about right now are the mines and he was talking about, you know, the little red flags, I have a picture of my daughter and I pointing to a little red flag where there's supposed to be a mine and then the tunnels and how dangerous that must be and I mentioned in the book, James, something that we only have the experience in Hawaii about that awful morning about a nuclear missile maybe coming into Honolulu and we all had the choice, I know I was up and got it by text and I had the choice of waking up my family or not and I did not, but, you know, luckily it was, you know, deemed a false notion, but imagine living like that all the time and the closest I would come to this is probably living in Israel, you know, I mean, you constantly on the, you know, you have this sort of threat that's always there. Yeah, so I want to ask you about, you know, you style this, the pleasurable cultural journey of K-drama. Is it all pleasurable? Is it all happy? Or is there a dark side? And what is that dark side? Well, you know, here's the, you know, the squid game kind of changes that question completely in terms of all the violence, but you know, that's not typical of K-drama at all. There's a lack of violence and a lack of blood in most things. I mean, there was one show that was kind of macabre called Beyond Evil that I watched, but that's not in the book, but to answer your question is the most disturbing chapter to me in K-drama voyage, which is mostly pleasurable and is the chapter about bullying and the pervasive bullying that takes place in high schools and in one case in a K-drama about runners on a national team, that is quite disturbing. And for someone who spent most of his life in schools and in university, you know, it goes on there too in the United States, but probably not to the extent. And I, a lot of this is motivated by class differentials too, and how even academics in Korea sometimes defer to the wealthier students, or at least that's the projection. And so I talk quite a bit about this bullying, because it's, you know, in the United States, it doesn't have the racial connotations that we often have in the United States, but it's definitely a problem. But, you know, despite that, I would say, you know, the great 95 percent of the book is just, and the reason for the dedication to the Korean people is really a celebration of Korean culture. And I end the book, and this is an important point, with the plight of a Korean policeman who is just, you know, he doesn't pay attention to the higher ups. He just does his job. He's an honest guy. He adopts the daughter of one of the guys who is unjustly killed in the story. It's called the good detective. And I think that he personifies most of the Korean people, and he is really quite a good man. And I am purposely pointing this out, because in Arizona, there is a group called The Hundred Club, and it supports the widows and the widows of slain policemen and firemen. And of course, we know in the United States, there have been really horrible things happening, especially to African Americans, among different isolated incidents of police doing things that they should not be doing and committing atrocities. But overall, I think that the police are just trying to do their jobs and have a very, very hard job in itself. And the reason I mentioned The Hundred Club, and this is how I go off on tangents in my book, is that The Hundred Club was started by several businessmen, one of which was a guy named Lee Ackerman, who was my father. And because it's you, Jay, I want to have some of my concluding comments. With Peter Hoppenberg, that wonderful mench, we talked at last time about civil society. And I just want to end with my comments with this story. Do we have any more time or can I do it very quickly? Yeah, go ahead. Okay. When he, in 1960, there's a nice picture that I have of him with JFK, because he was running for governor in Arizona, and JFK was running for president. And they both lost because Arizona was a very deeply red state at the time. And the guy who won is a guy named Paul Fanon. And my father remained friends with Paul Fanon and Barry Goldwater all his life, even though he was a Democrat and they were Republicans. And one day, I was hitchhiking on in Camelback Street in the mall, trying to get back to my father's house. You know, I was in high school. And at that time, as you know, in the 60s, it was safety hitchhiking. People would pick you up and they were very kind to you. And this guy said to me, son, what's your name? And I said Carl Ackerman. And he said, any relation to Lee? And I said, yes, I'm the son. He said, I know Lee well, I'll drop, I'll drop you off. And so right before I got out of the car, he said, please give your dad my warmest hello from Paul Fanon. So the guy he had run against, and that's the way politics used to be in the United States. And hopefully, after this recent election that we just had, you know, I would have voted for the Democrat in Virginia, and I would have voted for the Democrat in New Jersey. But the great thing about this last election is no one challenged it. No one says it wasn't, you know, all right, at least to this point that I know. And of course, this is what should be celebrated by everyone that there was election held, people voted, you know, a Republican one, Democratic one, people go home. And if they want to change things, they wait for another four years or two years, whatever it is, you know, isn't that great about America? Well, we'll see, won't we? Yes. Anyway, I want to get back to one point I wanted to ask you about on K-Drum. You know, it seems to me there's a kind of continuum here. And I wanted to ask you to comment on that. So at some point along the way, the Korean industrial complex undertakes electronics, probably, you know, right after the war, like the Japanese did. And all of a sudden, we have some televisions coming out of Korea. And we have computers ultimately coming out of Korea and cell phones and all that. And of course, that suggests, yeah, there you go. And that suggests that the Koreans part of the culture not only is, you know, the conglomerate part of the culture, but also, you know, electronics part of the culture. And it's going to be part. But somewhere along the line, all these televisions made a viewership that was huge relative to the population. I bet the viewership now, you know, in Korea is 100% solid on everything. And so that leads to the notion of K-Drama. It leads to creating an art form that is available on all these electronic devices that have been, you know, made part of the Korean culture. Okay, that's one end of it. And I am asking about that. But the other end of it is that somewhere in there, movies got to be, and this is, you know, I shouldn't say exacerbated. This is accentuated in the course of COVID. The movies got to be internationalized. I mean, I watch movies from every bloody country in the world now and I enjoy them. And so all of a sudden, every country is interested in producing movies. And Korea, no exception. In fact, Korea, I think, got on board early. Korea made movies that were bound not only for the Korean market, but for the international market. And part of that is somehow connected or encouraged or incentivized by its success in K-Drama. And you know that Korea has won some awards in its movies. And the Netflix serial squid is another example of the internationalization of the art form that, in my view, arose out of the popularity of K-Drama. So we have not only a rock solid audience in Korea, but without, you're not the only person who watches. You and your wife are not the only person outside of Korea who watch K-Drama, but you're not the only, and I'm not the only person outside of Korea that relishes Korean movies. So what's the connection? How does that continuum work, Carl? You know, Jay, I think you're right about all of this. And I'm glad that you watch international movies. You know, I sometimes compare the Korean dramas in terms of their scope and, you know, having non-happy endings the way Americans always expect, right? To the Russians, especially. And to look at Dr. Shvago, for example, which also is another favorite film of mine, and as to be expected. But I think that the notion of, I think sort of it's a yin and yang situation with, you know, the startup electronics, and there's a wonderful Korean drama called startup, which is all about sort of people being, you know, interested in starting up and a group of delivery people getting together, a strongest delivery man, which the guy uses a new app to do this. But I think that, you know, with the, I think you hit it on the head with, you know, with the electronics generation coming came thirst for watching things. You know, I mean, every everything you have electronically, you can watch things on. And I think it's kind of naturally dovetailed with the Korean drama. But I think that the, you know, as we've seen with the Academy Awards, the notion of Korean film making, I think we're just seeing the beginning of it. And K-drama were just beginning to see it. And it's because they're so darn good. I mean, they're really well acted. And I think that's part of it. And you have directors who go in for those close shots. And the most important thing to me is it allows the both the audience and the character to think. And you know, it goes back to the thing I started this, whether we started talking about the beginning, it's the amount of time you have to think about issues. And I just think that's lovely. And by the way, for your information, there is a newspaper which got a hold somehow, maybe through my publisher, this book, K-drama voyage, and it's called the Korean Quarterly. And it's spread throughout the Midwest. And I think there was a connection with, you may remember, maybe 20 or 30 years ago, there was a large adoptee population from Korea before the, you know, adoptee from China. And so I think it naturally evolved from there. And it's, you know, it has, it's a publication of about 20 or 30,000 people in the Midwest, which is nothing like, you know, a major newspaper here in Honolulu or, you know, Chicago or New York or the New York Times, you know, it's not like that, but it's, it's really well made by the Korean Quarterly. And you get great reviews. If I may say so, I mean, it compares to the New York Review of Books or the New Yorker in the sense of the quality of the prose, the quality of reviews. It really is a marvelous newspaper that I would know nothing about had not the, you know, Chief Editor contacted me about a review in, in the Korean Quarterly. So I just, I'm, I'm absolutely amazed. And I think, you know, sometimes people are too quick to, as I was, I was guilty of this too. You know, when my wife first talked to me about Korean drama, I thought, Lynn, do I really have time for this? You know, I'm, I'm working full time, you know, I'm, I'm writing, I'm, I'm writing articles, you know, can I do this? And I luckily, as in many things in life, my wife was persistent and kindly and said, you should really check this out. And I did. And it's because of her that I really got hooked on a Korean drama. And I have little note cards right here where I'm trying to learn the Korean language, I guess that, you know, Russian and Spanish were not enough for me. You're really committed now. Oh, I've, oh yeah, oh yeah. And I, you know, I just, I want to go back to Korea because I want to see all the nooks and crannies that we missed. And of course, the local chicken shop, where you can get chicken and chicken and, and so, soju. But, you know, Jay, what are the ironic things is, you know, there are also a ton of subway shops, you know, the, and in Korean dramas, people are always eating subways. And, you know, with all my family, I don't know about your family, but all my family having roots in New York City and New York and, you know, upstate two, but mostly in the city, you know, that kind of deli sandwich is like, you know, the heart of heart. I mean, you know, what Ashkenazi doesn't like a deli sandwich, right? Yeah, right. Good one. Hand in glove. Carl, we're out of time. Okay. I just want to confirm that the book is called the pleasurable cultural journey of K-drama. It's actually called a K-drama voyage. And the subtitle is the quite pleasurable cultural journey of an American watching Korean drama. Okay. It's on Amazon, right? It's on Amazon, both in digital form. And it's also in paperback form. And it's inexpensive. You can get it, especially in the digital form. But I think if people are interested in K-drama, this is the book. Okay. We're out of time. Thank you, Carl Ackerman, Professor Dr. Carl Ackerman of Punahou School. You are a man of many talents or a renaissance individual, as they say. Thank you so much, Carl. And right back at you, Jay. So thank you, Jay Fidel. Thank you.