 Well, hello everybody. Welcome to Brain Club. And for, for, I though I know all of you here, I will introduce myself anyway for YouTube video watching purposes for those joining asynchronously. I'm Mel Hauser. I use she they pronouns and I am executive director here at all brains belong for months. And this is brain club our weekly community conversation about every day brain life. And our topic today is going to be like literally one of my favorite things to talk about because it's like unpacking it is the key to the universe or like one of the many keys to the universe. And this is a topic that we covered at one of our early brain clubs we did this last in March. And hold on, I never do this just speaking of internalized ableism. I never quite know how to like make zoom, not block my screen area, I'll just make my face go away because anyway, that then we covered this in March, which was like a really long time ago in the big scheme of things and like not long ago at all in another way of looking at this. We went when I watched like five seconds of the video and it was really interesting to hear the me of seven or eight more whatever ago months ago, talking about like, well we just started talking about unlearning things here at all brains block We only started like it's just really interesting to think about because like that's all we do at brain club right all we do is like work together to try to unlearn these over rehearsing their old pathways or just kind of think about it really wasn't that long ago. You know that that that that we've been doing this work together. And actually before before without without further deal this will just be ground rules. So tonight you'll hear me and probably many other people using identity first language. And though, you know, I always encourage people to ask language that folks are most comfortable with. You'll hear me use words like autistic, because for me autism is part of my identity. We welcome all forms of participation, you can have your video on or off most of you have figured that out already. And even if your videos on we do not expect anything of you, you know you do certainly do not need to look at the camera. I can't tell you like how often, you know folks on zoom meetings are like oh you know I apologize I'm, you know I'm looking this way I'm doing that like in our culture, we don't even notice that you know just just do what needs doing walk, move, fidget, stem, eat, all the things. However, you're most comfortable on mute, shout it out type in the chat box mix and match. And, as always, safety comes first here so in addition to affirming and respecting all aspects of identity. One of the ways that we protect one another's access needs is to give content warnings, announce topics, if you are planning to share anything that you personally experienced as distressing or traumatic just so that others can listen with informed consent versus choose what they do what they need to do to feel safe like leave the room for a minute, or turn their sound off, and we'll let you know on the topics over. And that's a duplicate slide. Speaking of access needs to turn on closed captioning you can click the depending on your version of zoom, like the live transcript closed captioning button or more dot dot dot and she show subtitles. You could also do the same to choose hide subtitles if you change your mind. No Laura thanks very much. I'm going to give a formal content warning for shame and ableism. I think that absolutely. Thank you for that. Because in fact, um, that's what tonight is about. And, and, and, and, you know, related related to to Laura's really helpful comment to prompt me to remind us all that like this, there may be some you know, you know, content or remain the topics all that, even if you're like prepared for the topic. It doesn't mean that you may not have no limbic responses to this, to your own thoughts, even that might come up during this topic and so please take care of yourself. You can leave at any time. And always, always at any of our programs, you can, you can take a break come back. This might just all be too much. This is because for, for, for many of us, these are really loaded and often really painful concepts. So, what are we talking about shame. And for those of you who know Renee Brown. This by the way this image of Renee Brown's book I thought it was just me but it isn't making the journey from what will people think to I am enough. This is one of my favorite books of all time. Renee Brown is a researcher sociology researcher who studies shame and vulnerability. And for me Brown says that that there are really all roads lead to shame shame is this universal emotion of feeling the profoundly painful negative emotional experience of feeling defective broken deficient. And in this book. I very much encourage reading or listening to it, but I will I will summarize it for you in this book. Dr Brown breaks this down into four, four buckets. The first thing is like learning how to recognize shame, because, often, some of our most intense limbic involuntary automatic responses. And we, when we recover and require access to our cortex to really think about the, the, the circumstances that led to these reactions. Almost always this relates to shame. So as soon as we can, or as, as soon as we can recognize shame, meaning it acknowledging it is a powerful way of coping with it. And then she goes on to say, well, step to tell someone, you know, I'm feeling shame. Because when you do that, almost always someone says, Oh, well that reminds me of that time I experienced this or in some other version of me too. And automatically that the secrecy, the perceived aloneness of that painful emotion is diminished, even just a little bit. Again, and these are like the complicated parts. This comes like way later, if you can get to step one, awesome step two, really helpful, but like advanced shame management step three, you know, doing the work of reflection of like why, why did this trigger this sense of shame or this discomfort from. And the bigger picture of you the zoomed out view how was I set up by my culture by my environment to be triggered by this thing. And I'm going to, I'm going to play a video I played this when we did this in March but I played this or some of our patients too and I will be interested to hear what what if if any of this resonates. I never do the thing where I click the share the sound button. Here we go. One, take a shower. You don't want to smell to pick out an outfit that will fit with the latest trends and won't make you the laughing stock of the school, more than you already are free. Put on some makeup so you can actually show your face in public and be a little bit pretty. Make sure you recognize yourself and your face tingles with an unbelievable itch. You can't satisfy otherwise you will have ruined the hours of meticulous painting you applied to your hideous face. Four, don't forget to style your hair and elegant curls. You can't let everyone at school see how your hair frizzes up like an electrocuted monkey naturally. Five, shove your fat feet into those toe pitching blood blistering converse that everyone at school is wearing and you cannot be the odd one out. As you gaze into the bathroom mirror you see a stranger that somehow stole your reflection and replaced it with the completely different girl. Every part of your outfit is uncomfortable but even though you spend hours trying to look pretty you will never be as good as those other girls at school. You are actually holding back a few tears but you feel like you are holding back a tsunami of emotion. You can't let anyone else know that you feel otherwise they will never respect you the same way they used to. Or did they ever? Why am I not good enough? Beauty is pain. Six, get off the bus. Seven, find a group of people you can walk to class with because heaven knows you can't just walk alone. But you don't even like these people. They cuss and they make dirty jokes a lot and they laugh and make fun of you. You know you shouldn't hang out with them but hey they are the popular kids and you just want people to like you like they like them. I'm curious. Anybody connect with any of that? Any chapter of your life past or present? Mel, I have a thought. Yeah. In the past few months I've been going through some struggles and it's been a help because it's allowed me to spend a lot of time thinking about my life and the fact that my learning disability wasn't diagnosed until I was 40. And so the main thing that I came up with and it's a strength based reframe of a struggle, you know, across my life. My life has been, had been filled with all of these moments where people asked me questions like why can't you learn? Why can't you do this? You've done this wrong. Why didn't you do this? And just maybe in the past day or so the idea hit me. It wasn't that I didn't or was unable to. It was because I couldn't. Because I didn't have the right kind of help. And what that has done for me has opened up a really deep well of empathy for that kid who worked so hard and struggled so much because I didn't know to ask for help. And people didn't know what I needed help with. And now as a 50 year old, 51 year old, the thing that I have, that I'm most proud of is that I'm becoming much better at asking for help. And so with the empathy for the child and the strength, Brene Brown talks about bravery not existing without vulnerability and the bravery it takes to ask for help in the normative world. I have in a way come home to myself and found strength that I didn't know existed, but always has. And it's really helped me reframe my moments moving through my day and, and, you know, all of this thinking started with you mentioning the term access needs, where I started to be able to form language around around how I could ask for help. So, you know, yeah, so that's my, that's my idea what it's not that we can't, it's that we couldn't. Oh, that is so powerful on Laura sharing in the chat. I agree. You know, this, this is so common right so like when little kids come up in the world. You know, there's a message given not just implicitly it's like explicitly given right like this is how you do the thing. Why can't you do that thing. As though there's one correct way to do that thing. And like, how could this not have a profoundly toxic traumatic impact on a sweet little loves life. And then like, we think was going to happen reading in the chat. Kelly saying once I considered things as access needs it gave me permission to explain my needs. Yes, yes. And, and, and thinking about you know anytime, you know we put the onus on the person to come up with their own accommodations for their access needs. That's not right. That's ableism. Like, things should just be offered in multiple different ways. Speaking of ableism, I'm going to play one more video. Because when I looked back to the last time we tackled this at brain club. I just, I think with with our, our grown village here. It'll, it'll be saying I know some of you are here tonight, we're here the last time, but it's really interesting to see the lens, very curious for your responses. And so, I think in the chat. Laura saying this all resonates with me to in different ways my experience as a kid, wanting to fit in and even being willing to change myself to do so, but not being able to fit in even when trying to change a lot of myself and then finally learning to embrace who I was, because I didn't seem to have much of an alternative, but I think I was lucky to have the resources to embrace myself. Oh, ultimately. Yeah, Matthews agreeing to Kelly saying I put myself in scary situation. I'm in scary situations trying to fit in. I have such a hard time reading people to even know what they wanted for me. Oh yeah. Yeah. Thank you all for sharing. Yeah. Here we go. It's an everyday language. The actions in everyday language the simple assumptions that are made about how like well everyone does this this way or everyone can do that or that's so easy. You think about how many times subtle privilege infuses into everyday life that is going to contribute to a narrative of brokenness. So how could it not when when we as kids don't know that the way we fundamentally like intuitively inherently are is a thing. We're going to make up a narrative. We're going to reinforce it reinforce it reinforce it and now here we are as adults trying to online that. And it's hard though it's hard though because it's so hardwired and especially when we're dysregulated we're going to default to those hardwired beliefs that narrative we came up with in childhood. So if you have this lens of just like recognizing it, it's the opportunity to like view your own everyday interactions differently. And I'll give some examples in a minute. Because that internalized ableism that fundamental belief of not being good enough being defective being broken. How is that not going to impact. You know not just self concept self esteem but like all the interpersonal relationships personal and professional, all of these interactions, and at least being able to zoom out and say, Oh, what's the story I'm telling myself. Where did it come from. And is it ableism. This is the story. I know guys if you can see this picture. This is me with chocolate syrup all over my coach and my pants and I used to have been wearing a dress I was on my way to work the other day, and I stopped at a restaurant to pick up some take out. I am dyspraxic, and I know that motor coordination when I'm stressed and running around and rushing and carrying things like I mean, it's going to take more brainpower that I did not have available so when I pick up the take out. I said hey, can I have a bag. You know what she says she says. Oh well those bags are there they're big you know it'd be a lot easier for you just to like hold it. So, when I tell the story like obviously, I can name the thing, but in the moment me, even though I'm someone who has been with us all the day, I say, Oh yeah, I should be able to carry that. So I carry the thing. And I'm holding the bag and I'm holding the box and I'm holding the keys and like, what do you think happens. I am covered in sauce. And, you know, I can tell the story with a little bit of a smirk and a little bit of a, you know, it's all right. But now I'm going to tell you the story of the seven year old sweet little love. I'm in a child last week, who told me. Dr. Mel. I'm bad. I said, what do you mean you're a sweet little love. What do you mean, my teacher hates me. What do you mean I mean she probably just dysregulated every dysregulated it's all it's just right. No, it's me. She yells at me. She yells at me because I'm running around all the time and I can't stop moving. I say, Oh, sweet little love. You're the kind of brain learns better when you're moving. You have a kind of brain that actually when you're moving your little internal GPS in your ear actually processes auditory information better. Oh, you sweet little love you have figured out how to attend and regulate and learn. And he says, she gave me a frowny face for the day. What do you mean frowny face. Well, I get a happy face when I'm good for the day and a frowny face when I'm bad. What does it mean to be good and bad. And he says, Well, when I flip my lid. I get a frowny face. Oh, sweet little love, you're telling me that when you flipped your lid because the environment. Oh, sorry, the, I forgot this detail. Recess was taken away, because the work was not done, got to skip recess to do the work, you know the work that wasn't able to be done because the movement was inhibited and prevented and prohibited. You didn't do the work because the environment would not allow you to do the work in your way, and then punished by taking away the very thing that your brain needed. And then you get a frowny face, because you flipped your lid because all of the regulatory mechanisms that you yourself were seeking out. And then you're told they were bad. Oh my goodness anyway I started crying during the visit, and I tell the story like all the time now because it is everywhere, it is everywhere. When we tell sweet little loves that the way that we are intuitively feeling in our bodies is wrong. Because there's a just so way to be. What do we expect is going to happen. You know that's such a touching story and I feel it's, it's so it's so sad because it's tempting the potential of so many amazing people. You know, when you don't have a disability but you grow up with these message like oh, you know why didn't you do better, you know, and so on it. It's something but imagine when you face it days and then days out because, because you're just not fitting the, the norm of that little perfect little behavior. That is not stressing anybody else you know so that they don't have to take care of themselves. It just really saddens me. And I'm working with some students at UVM you know that I can I see coming in my office and talking to them and I hear them repeat those negative stories to themselves. And I always write on the board when we talk and that that there's one student says oh it's so helpful seeing it written because I can see how it's not really me you know how it comes from outside. And so I just do that when the person talk I just kind of light on the board. And it's like, okay. And after it's let out and can move on but yeah that internalized ableism is like a big deal is that shared with me one time the picture of, or this idea of lifting yourself by your bootstrap. I never, I never realized that's something we hear all the time that's it's actually something that's impossible. And then it used to be to bring attention to something that was not possible and somehow we twisted it around to become this like wonderful thing was driving to do. I mean nobody can pull themselves up by their bootstrap see there's no like counter pressure right you can't lift yourself out of the mud you need like that. How to pull you up. So I think there's a lot of work to do with parents, future parents so they from the start you know, don't keep breathing that internalized chain. Right, but the tricky thing and thank you for all of that Lillian. The tricky part is this. One is most people with disabilities don't know they have disabilities. So you are given the message, you don't know you have needs. You're not doing the thing that's a lie. And so we become parents to maybe, and we have that internalized ableism, and we still don't know we have disabilities maybe, and we pass about that I mean we passed that and it's the intergenerational expectations, and that internalized and gets passed down so many parents that are really attached to the idea of being able to do the thing that comes from a place of being shamed for not being able to do the thing. And it's, it's, it's, it's like going to zoom way out and like we all the entire thing. Because it's not a matter I don't think it's a matter of like education, it's about you have like someone's gotta become self aware, and, and, and regulated and safe enough to take a look at their own self narrative. Remember we even have a chance at, at interrupting that cycle, as Laura said it's so much more core to the cell, because like, I, I like truly believe there's not one right to do the thing, but you know what happened today. When, when my sweet little love was flipping her lid downstairs brain decided to pull out the automatic script of using your words me I said that it came out of my mouth. It came out from my upstairs brain it came from a downstairs brain. What automatic speech is it comes back to all those ableist messages we got as kids. And then we shame ourselves and we're more dysregulated and we still don't have access to our cortex and it just goes on and on and on. And I think the difference is of just like, this is going to happen. It's going to happen and it's just transparency is the way out of chaos. When my son was really young and like all of the in home interventions were happening. I thought it was great that he could take my hand and leave me over to where the cups were and pick out his cup and then take me by the hand and leave me over in the fridge and have me open the fridge and point to the drink that he wanted like, hey, that's awesome you wanted you know a drink you wanted and I thought that was like, wonderful. And then they were telling me well no, no, he needs to be able to verbalize that that he needs this drink so you know until he uses the sign for milk, or the word for milk you know you don't you don't get him the and I think my husband I lasted two days before we're like, this is an excuse my language shit show every single time this kid has a want that he's telling us what he wants and we're saying no you're not telling us how we want you to tell us and we're like why does he want override his need, like, because that's what it was was this, this narrative of this is where you live so this is how you communicate. And I was so I'm so frustrated and disappointed in myself when I think back of those early years because it was all stuff that I intuitively bucked up against because it was my own neurology that they were like insulting with these interventions. And it was so I'm just like, I realize now why I was so like, oh, steadfast against it because they were at the same time force feeding me this narrative that I was over emotional that I was, you know, just being too protective of my son no mother likes to see their babies uncomfortable and you have to be uncomfortable to learn and and these these terrible ideas that I was then putting on my kid. And then I had this second kid who's like painfully neurotypical and is like the most befuddling child to me to raise I don't even know what to do with him like I don't even know. And I realized like wow they're not having me do any of this stuff with him, like there's no intervention between him and life he just gets to engage with life how he engages because he fits this little section that's okay all these behaviors are okay he's normal. And that's when we really started being like nope our kid is going to be authentically himself and these are the sports are going to go around that happening and we became those parents overnight. And we joke that there was an email going around the district about us to warn other teachers that we were on our way and we were coming with with pitchforks. And I'm not going to go on a tangented way off but narratives are are awful when they're harmful and so many of them are. Yes. And then you then you overlay the brain like the, you know, the culturally shared brain rules Jose gave an example of that in the chat. The brain rules, you know, amongst even, you know, professionals like you know Luna, Luna worked with a therapist once and Luna used to flip her lid, you know, refusing to go, flip her live in the waiting room flip her lid during the session. And the therapist would say, well crying in therapy is is normal. And I'm like, and like, again, same, same, very similar to Kelly like in my my limbic systems like no unsafe bucket but like I didn't know I got to have opinions about this anyway like it took me a couple weeks, you know, it was just on the order of weeks before like, you know, I allowed myself to like parent intuitively to be like, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, we're not coming here anymore. But but this stuff just gets, you know, it's taken for granted or or you know, you know, it all brings belong, you know, our team, you know, has as we talked about this a lot, like with Vax with our neuro inclusive vaccine clinic. Like it is taken for granted that like the sweet little loves have to have a traumatic vaccine experience that is a brain rule like that's our kids. It's not what happens at our clinics like, like, people high five and they like, oh, can I come back like I mean just it's just like a complete you have to look you have to learn the brain rules like kids are not supposed to be afraid of healthier experiences. It's not normal and it's not okay. I'm just messing up in the chat. Jose saying learning to trust one's own body and system is such an important part. Right. And you know I think trauma physiology breaks that down. Right, so, so the brain body disconnect that happens from being invalidated. And not having your bodily autonomy respect there's all these things that go on that makes it really difficult to trust one's own body. Hi Judith. Hi. So, last year, no year and a half ago I learned that my daughter is autistic. And I always winches little follow her lead like she did really she loved preschool that was fine and highly social and highly interactive and very chatty and super friendly and really like set boundaries for herself I was like really proud of her even when a kid bit her she was like, we don't bite people like she was just so on it. Such a sweet person from the time she was born. And, but as she went on she struggled with the classroom sizes as classrooms got bigger and I just thought well she would say it's loud and I was like okay some people just have more, you know, better hearing. And so it just went on and on I just and she had really good taste in food like everything was like really specific. So I just she actually made me a better cook. After a while, I got a lot of feedback from the teacher saying that she's too sensitive and I was like well, she's actually really aware of people's underlying qualities. I was like that and then I reread the diagnosis, and I just, I cried because I sent my mom. And we, we all have same learning disabilities like with math and dyslexia. But over the years I just kept getting told that she was difficult. And I started to internalize some of that. And I know that I'm kind of spacey and forgetful and I tend myself tested and I didn't come out but I also wonder like, what are they testing for. But then I tried to back off on telling her social rules, because it would hurt her coming to me and then. But then if I didn't say it she would run into a problem and now she just is so angry with me, because I'm like telling her all the things all the time trying to help her avoid more pain. And my mom was never able to get a job or anything and she ended up destitute. So, I really, really worry about like her future like, is she going to be able to drive or right now I have she applied for a job and she won't do the follow up because of anxiety, and I've been trying to encourage her and giving her the lines like, Hey, this is how you follow up you were great like, and she gets angry with me for pushing her. And I feel like I have become able as where I wasn't, but then I'm like, where is that line where you help. And don't want to end up like my mother or in this too. It's just I'm terrified. I think she's got such a great personality and so intelligent but she doesn't. I can, I know she doesn't think I think highly of her anymore because I try to teach her things and I didn't subject her to the ABA. I'm so glad you're here. I'm so glad you're here. I'm so glad you're here. There were as you were speaking so many people were flashing their heart to motor cons and typing things in the chat. I hear you and and and the comments that your love is beautiful the witness. So here's the deal. I'm just going to be okay, because the way that you might hear me as an autistic 37 year old reflect on being a kid and being told that like, you know you got to do the thing. But still, no one's aware about that message being unhelpful the fact that you're like, you're like, oh well I gave this message because of this and I'm aware of my fear of my mom like you have so much more self awareness than like, like so many people and so so this is going to be okay. I think that your instincts about about the response to pressure or whatever the, you know, the, I don't know exactly the word I don't remember the word you use but I think that your intuitions as a, as a mama are so important right. So, I think, and I have the kind I have a I have an autistic child also, and there's so many things right that like now with self awareness I like really wanted to go differently and I'm like afraid of things not like going away that it happened for me or worse and like all of that and and when when I come from a place of fear like how could you not feel this way like how could you not like you're not going to not be afraid you're not going to not love your child you're not going to not want this to go well for you just not. And there are many people that when we want them to do the thing. That like many people who are like porous to energy they take in all that all all the energy can feel the vibe like they're walking to tell you know like, so it becomes, it feels unsafe when someone wants us to do the thing, even when the thing is helpful. And so I think, and like, I'm still working on this I work on this every day. I'm working on like, and I'll send you I'll send you a recording of a couple of brain clubs ago. Maybe it was. I can early October. We had an episode on creating a culture of safety at home. And we so so is and we had a pre recorded conversation between me and one of the members of our board of directors who's an occupational therapist. And we both have, we both have five year olds who anytime you want them to do the thing. So anyway, conversation about like, how do you queue safety for nervous systems like that. And basically what it was like, you know, and I think that what what what we came up with as a as a collective village here is you know whether you are self regulating bottom up like being in a body and like figuring out what we what you need to do to feel calm like I don't know like when I'm just regular I can't I can't be bothered with that like I don't I got too much for anybody disconnect but like I could be the top down thing. So for me. I have to remind myself that safety comes first, the relationship comes first. And so I could want to protect her from this that are the other thing social relationship. I have to pick literally all I can do is remember to not tell her what to do. And I, I cannot remember that, because I always want to do the thing and I always want to do the thing and I want to protect her from the things. I have to pick. Sometimes I literally make signs on the wall that remind myself the relationship comes first. It's so hard right it's so hard and I'm seeing a whole bunch of stuff in the chat about just wanting to help and offer care is love and just letting know you're there goes a long way and listening. Right. Yeah. And you know it's it is interesting because, you know, similarly, you know, I can look back and I can say, Oh, of course my mother taught me to mask. Of course, you know, that's what she thought was helpful. And with the lens of retrospection is I'm like, all the things make sense. And it's not too late, like the repair of of ruptures, like, there's still going on, you know, like this this relationship's going on it's here. And I think just like lowering the demand of, of, of just all Oh yeah, all right and so I'm Elizabeth has in the chat. Amanda, Dakeman has really good stuff on what's hard and what's too hard and trusting our kids and their intuitions and has her Instagram account load Amanda, Amanda, who is actually going to be our presenter next week's brain club. So just about like, how do you, how do you, how do you do this? How do you create that culture of safety? And, and Nita's adding in the chat, don't forget your mother most likely didn't have support of someone as aware as you absolutely could not agree more. Your work to learn how to support her will make a difference even if she can't take your input at this point there's so much room for her to grow when she finds her comfort zone but it's going to be on her own timeline and that's she can't control but often, you know, often want to and can't control. It's just, and Jose sharing softening softening the cycle. Yeah, so it's some it's, it's, it's, it's a process but like you know I think that, you know, the community, you know, for ourselves as parents is part of our own co regulation experience of like, yeah, like, yeah, I, that that dynamic you just described that is my house like often. So, so it's, I'm so glad you're here. Thank you. So much of what you described like, you know, resin resonates with me and I know resonates so many people because we talk about this all the time. And so it's just like you know you can't. You, you all, all you can do is form, form, you know, form, form community and I hope you do that here. And I think that for our kids. I think so much of this is about finding the people that you can show up authentically with. And when you don't have that, then you. That's when you need those, you know, like codes, which follow the goal would be that that's not your main social. Those are like strategies, social strategies, like you know, some for some advantage, you know, I can. I've been like, you know, faking speaking neurotypical for 37 years like I like I like it, but it's a second language. But like the idea that if, if our kids can form relationships with people who love what they love. These like social rules, they become so irrelevant. Yeah, we did the first time we did a. We have a kid connections program where we connect kids with kids who love what they love but the first time we did a group of that. Last fall for two and a half months we did a Pokemon group. This is like a. Anyway, I don't know anything about Pokemon but here I was like, you know, in between patients like running a Pokemon group on zoom with kids, each eight to 10. And these sweet little loves who like, you know, um, I didn't have to facilitate I didn't have to give like social more is like they just existed, and they energetically did not demand anything of each other they just were. They just were in the space with the thing that they love and the dopamine flowed and, and it was like, that's how it's supposed to go. It's just that most of the time it doesn't go that way. And it's not until it goes that way, when you when someone has the experience of safely showing up and feeling safe, like feeling safe and authentic. Then you can recognize the environments that aren't that way, but until you have, you can't really discern, you know, safe or not safe and I think that is the way out of this cycle of you know intergenerational internalized ableism is that like you know how I had like an authentic social experience I probably would have recognized all the inauthentic social experiences. Mm hmm. Thank you. Thank you everyone to I think this is really helpful you said this thing and I think people are flashing things about co regulation and. You know it's, it has felt like when I would say something at times, it was traumatizing to her even if it was said gently and I was like, what is this why is there trauma I kept wondering did someone harm her when she wasn't in my care you know and I kept, I would think she was verbal, you know, try her you safe as anyone ever you know. And so, no, no, no, because I was really really careful and we got lucky and. But it is I think there's a piece about how can I identify and create safety before I make a statement and really tuning into what is she meeting. at that moment which is ever changing for all of us right like at every stage every every week even for all of us. So, thank you. You're welcome. And I think for so I'm reading in the chat Stacy says we can raise children who can navigate that hardship without compromising their own needs and vulnerability. Right and they the way we do that is is is is queuing safety. Right that's, that's all we can do. Lillian saying in the chat my daughter would always say mom just listen don't try to don't try to find solutions, her hurt was so hard for me to hold. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious for, for, for anyone, anyone in the group, you know, because I think this like hypersensitivity to energy demand thing I bet that is well represented here. Both I, you know, personally, and or as a parent. You know, I, I wonder, you know, as, as, as you've done your own self discovering about, you know, this whole thing of expectation and like doing the thing that you're that your limbic system is telling you is is unsafe like how do you even if you know someone's trying to help, or that something is helpful or, you know, objectively rationally like a thing to do but it's just downstairs brain says no. Hi Kelly. Hi. You know the challenge that I've had the past couple weeks I've been supposed to go to this conference that is in a different state and I like there was like planes involved. And it was like sending me into complete overdrive like I genuinely feel bad for my husband right now because he has had to live with me in this very elevated frantic state. I mean, making dinner tonight putting things away I put the avocado, the cut avocado in the cupboard, the bag of peppers on the dining room table in the other room, and the tortillas just on the counter by the stove because that's apparently where all of those things are going to be put in the microwave and then I had to basically go around and gather dinner leftovers and put them away for realsies, but so I kept trying to like find accommodations for this conference like okay, I'm not flying there's no way it's going to happen. I will drive there. Okay. I hate driving like because for a long time because the distractions just become too much and it becomes very energy sucking to drive. My husband was like, Hey, your parents live by nearby will pack up the kids will take the week and will drive there and so I was like, Oh, well that's something like I'll have my family so I won't be worrying about my kids I won't be worrying about the husband. I've slept at my parents house before I've been there so I'll be in a place I know like will bring all of the same foods like will be good like this is a plan. But then I was like crap, I'm going to actually have to leave my parents house to go to this conference like that's that's the actual thing is going to the conference. And I kept requesting information for months of like look I need anything like what does what does the conference look like is there a video like anything to help me visualize me in this place. And I just kept getting told, don't worry, you're just going to jump right in and have a fun time you're going to have a blast and I'm like sobbing at the other end of this email being like, And it made me just very much connect with the day we pulled our son out of public school to homeschool him. I made the realization, all of his time, all of his goals, all of his supports were spent on helping him tolerate being in the environment, none of it was learning none of it was curriculum none of it was anything I was in realization there was nothing but learn how to be in this space without freaking out and leaving the building and climbing a tree like that's nothing like and I realized that that would be me at this conference that would be me it would be me trying to tolerate this all this dead time or they're like, Oh, you just have two hours to go to lunch somewhere like I've never been in this place how am I supposed to go get lunch, where I'm going to find food that I'm going to eat like, are you kidding me right now I'm going to die in DC on the sidewalk like that was essentially my end scenario in every single thing. And so finally I like five days before the conference was like, I'm not going. And then I got all angry that they didn't plan for those people in this group that weren't going so only those going have an assignment that week and I'm like, Well, where's my access to this curriculum like how am I supposed to be learning if I'm not accessing this conference and you know got the. Oh, yeah, we'll have to pull something together and I'm like, Oh, once again fit in at the last minute instead of being freaking thought of with the rest of the people. And I think that's where a lot of my internalized able as a man Shane comes from is I'm always trying so hard to keep up with the rest of the people and he is so frustrated when I'm not thought of when I have no regard being put back toward me when all I'm is regarding everybody around me so I can just try to keep up with them, and nobody tries to keep anybody up with people and it's just, it blows me away sometimes how people just think that you can dive in and have fun is my end sentence. And it messages sent. This is, you know, everyone's doing the thing, you're not doing the thing like so you know how could we possibly be surprised when, but like me anyway I actually Sarah says it a lot better than I do she's going to chat. I feel a lot of times that when someone tries to share their access needs, they're told by those in power. Don't worry. Yeah, and yeah, exactly so it's just that it's it's you know. It's it's it's just, it's invalidation. It is, you know, like, as though there's one correct threshold by which something should be worrisome or not, like, who are you to tell me what is unsafe. Yeah, you know, like this, this is. Yeah. So I think that you know these are the conversations that are are going to allow this next generation to grow up in a world's where that we actually the cheese and it's hard. And it's not just like, oh yeah, I know about it. Like, that like ends the, you know, the long standing intergenerational cycle, but I do think you're coming. And yeah, and being, you know, being told don't worry over and over and over and over leads to shame, unless it can be sure what others in team that's so well said Sarah. And, and Lillian's adding to that you know don't try to meet your needs you're asking too much you're a burden and then we back up and try to do everything by ourselves without asking for help. Right, because you shouldn't have to ask for help because you should just be able to do the thing that is, those are the messages and so I think just being aware that like, we grew up with these messages, we are going to predictably default to them when we're isolated, it's like a completely predictable enterprise. And so just, yeah, how could we not, you know those pathways you lay down, you know, in early childhood, you know, like before the age of eight, like those are the ones that they're there, we're always going to default to them. And Travis is giving a great example telling a crying child it's okay. You know it's not the tears and the crying or the absolute and the only proof that it is indeed not okay. Yes. Yes. All that. And the, you know, I, I, you know, you're okay. Yeah, so gross. They agree. Yeah, you're okay. Great. And I can tell you that as a parent, when I buy that. When I am dysregulated, you know, and I'm like trying to sue like what comes out it's the stuff that was told to me to try to sue me that didn't suit me like it just comes out it just. Yeah, well as Laura said I'm that parent who says these things without thinking no way because upstairs brain did not like way out you know should I say that terrible thing or not say that terrible thing this is downstairs brain it's automatic speech. It just comes out it's you know it's it's those over her pathways. So, some levels it seems like ableism is almost synonymous with invalidation. You know, you're fine. You can do this. I don't need to help you help yourself. Yeah, and you think about you know you know like think about how the that that is trained right so you know like all all that you know like that. That's what goes on I know it's it's and we talk a lot here about. You know the, the, the over glorified independence thing, whereas like interdependence like the idea of being connected and rely on other people like there's nothing wrong with that that's the goal the goal is to be interdependent, you know, with with other humans or like these are relations it's a point of having relationships. It's like part of being healthy. Laura says that I said the other day that one way to detect someone in downstairs brain mode is when they start using those scripted phrases and repeat the phrases we hear from them a lot oh yeah. Yeah, that's a. That's what goes on. Yes. Well, I, I'm so grateful to all of you for for for being here and you know being part of one another's journeys of like doing all of this really hard on learning, and we'll just keep practicing. And I hope to see you next week, where we are going to be discussing low demand lifestyle, the idea of letting go of of of these expectations these demands with applications for ourselves our relationships. So parenthood like all kinds of applications of this, and, or it's a, and I look forward to seeing you then have a good week. Oh, and by the way, next Tuesday is our actual birthday, it's a bbs one year birthday next Tuesday. And I look forward to seeing you on birthday day. Bye.