 And it is to say a few words about themselves and also to make an initial statement what's the personal relation to the content, its value of information, its value of structure and its monitoring methods and what may be the future potential of these methods for the infrastructure in general. So, yeah, we want to start. Can we give the words to Michael and then you walk through the slides? Well, the concept which we have tried to provide in this construction here really tries to close a hole in the logical approach which has been evolving over years whereby we try to use what we call non-structural means as a vehicle to learn more about the performance of the structural systems we are dealing with and thereby optimize decisions on how to manage the performance of these systems. I would say from a methodical point of view we are succeeding because we are pulling our way through the formalistic way of how to be done which are the important points to take into account which are the models which are required but when it comes to the presentation of what we have been doing maybe we could learn more on how to optimize that and of course this is decisive for impact so if the message that doesn't go really out over the table, the impact will not be optimal. But I think the approach which we all could take when we are trying to disseminate the ideas and I think maybe most people here in the room they have a good idea on what we are trying to achieve is to look at the management of the performance of structures and systems involved with structures from a little bit a different perspective essentially when you cut off all the flesh and you only have the skeleton remaining in the problem it is an information management problem and we can manage information on these systems through all sorts of decisions from the very early phases in design over the manufacturing and the construction and the operation phase over the commissioning and to the rebuilding or whatever, on all phases it is an information management problem and when you do that it becomes completely obvious that of course just flat information obtained from observing what is going on is also information just like information can be hauled and being made out of a high quality steel instead of a low quality steel it is all information and I think this is the way we need to approach this and also communicate it and for a large number of relevant problems basing decisions on how best to buy additional information and it takes place in the knowledge we already have on what information we might be able to achieve and this is the whole idea behind what we are doing so we are anticipating that new information will follow our knowledge to the best we know about the phenomena but when we get the new information we are able to act according to what we observe and this is what we have heard repeatedly and I am very happy to hear this from the audience today that we surely and surely agree that new information is triggering actions changes in what we are doing and this is why this is what we can really exploit in this approach here I probably did not really answer specifically your question but I hope that this is an indication for further outcome in this project Thank you I remember this as end users so I think on the upper level side of things I think we have improved safety and I think it will improve also to extend the lifetime of our experience at home we severe suffer from over inspection and under inspection and we suffer from over maintenance and under maintenance and I think being more analytical in our decision basis and not being subjective or relying on experience and past practice I think it's very useful to be more precise when we decide to do something so I think it will definitely improve asset management huge consequences for society possible of extending lifetime by 4% this huge impact Thank you very much Yes Yes, I think there was a lot of information during this session because we learned a lot and I remember when we began the project what was difficult is to analyse that we have several fields of engineering monitoring, engineering, decision societies and it's very difficult to make a link between all these companies and what was really interesting today is to observe that there is a need to link the engineering with the monitoring and with the results of monitoring and to make that as a whole package and monitoring should not be only a subcontract to a society that delivers sensors and that should be included in the engineering process and I think that was quite new probably we didn't think about that before and I think it was very interesting to see that at the beginning we observed that and now we know that this link is very important because engineers know exactly how the structure should work and the material, the section of material that was made and so on and another thing that probably we couldn't that was interesting is the concept of catalogue because there was probably indicators not sensors but indicators that are more appropriate to deliver information on the dimension and this type of indicators could be classified and after to select the good sensors that helps to compute and to assess this indicator so I think it was an interesting to see that I won't say that but again we're repeating all the ways of the same thing but I'm not going to be speaking about several things that we have already so my role in this construction maybe is a little bit from the industry side although my profile is also research-based but I have a lot of experience with the industry and from my understanding on this for years almost of this construction on this I think it's... there are several things that perhaps might be much of this problem that they are quite important rather than the effective approach to succeed on the implementation of this borrowable position from the industry there are some notes about the way of the professional mainly three I think there is something that is important in these meetings as we are doing today I hope this might be one of many further future but definitely we need to think about how we should embed these ACGM systems either if it's pre-article, punctual or permanent as in the Rosary Bridge I think this is frame-up in the asset management program so there are thousands of regions how this should be frame-up how the value of these ACGM should be included and I think here, as it is necessary maybe this takes some generations but also to train our technicians that are our experts that are responsible for the asset management perhaps they need some skills I have quite a few, I think how to deal with these monitoring data how to seal these data how we should be processing how to use this value information in the framework but it is the picture of the asset management that we need to frame these in their framework because it is a learning process so to improve changing patterns that is also important the second point of the three that I have here we need, I think it's urgent I think at least as far as my knowledge since 15 years of practicing ACGM we are delaying a part of some successful cases but also give a payback to owners and processionaries to invest strategically on ACGM because at the end of the day it's a system that will be in the region's structures and then there are two options either they maintain a system delaying to bear this system in the last month or they get lost in the switch-off they don't take care of it so this needs to be thought in a long term but with a payback to do and in my opinion this payback it goes to a level which perhaps is less technical but it's supported and grounded in a technical level as Michael said in the final part of the information here we have a framework that will work is that perhaps owners need some support from others in trying for example this is my vision personally as I presented this morning something like a technical recommendation that they may help, they should I think help us to write it down properly because the language should be non-technical the language of the decision-making point of view a very short document which sets the grounds in all the guidelines that we are producing this construction but allow them, perhaps if they are happy to do it approach the authorities to whom they are responsible for the concession and try to renegotiate some of the terms of the contract because if this point reaches this point we close this sustainable cycle so we rest, we analyze we propose some real initiations we have more flexibility I'm not saying that a technical recommendation should tell you how to do things but at least you should open a door to the owner to say ok we have some flexibility now let's see how we can optimize this approach when it's the job, when it's the job it has an end if you do this I think we are being also fairly spiritual that look like a tool but I think from my experience I'm not saying that we are guilty of that it's not done at the level of not, of course but this work on the technical recommendation is not only about giving more technical evidence I think it's more about starting working more inside of our decision-makers and help them to write it down this type of document so they can approach authorities to think about how this could start changing a little bit it's partly not only the experts or technicians or stakeholders but also from the authorities they become more sensitive perhaps I would say this technical recommendation we are not succeeding in the first approach second, third or whatever but once we start having this approach and when we have this support this construction is a huge community of 66, 70 people signing this type of technical recommendation showing that based on this case studies according to the techniques that we are applying we show evidence of this assumption so perhaps you know if he has a similar case to this case study we are giving him to use some support to show that it is worthwhile to think about it but this is not technical I think also it's political but we need to help them to sustain the reference of this document be it iron lines, yellow gold, whatever but cutting-edge research on the field but in certain ways people are meaning to invest but we need to be fair to them not promising what they cannot but at least they help them to give the ground if they are asked to give some more this is bad, this is a three-point in very easy to insist on asset management pay back to the owners which I think then we need to work out some more top-level document very shortly to support them if they are happy they are willing to ask some more negotiations in the contractor was two-point or three the third was the thinker it seems to be an outcome that we are all happy of course I think it would be worthwhile for their side perhaps not for the research side but for the industry side but my answer thinker and chef and the thinker and the thinker what's your thoughts that's all for me I think that's all a lot of a lot of things can be said about the special health monitoring and very old information for me first of all I think the special health monitoring or special health managing it's very important the private sector nowadays we have a big technology push for the central part you don't necessarily have to take big parts of the structure for that and do experiments nowadays you can go outside and go to the structure and obtain the information about the structure and the same holds the models they are available for decades now we are developing very nice mechanical and physical and electrical chemical models describing phenomenon and then the sort of thing is that there are those structures out there they are just asking for it so to speak for the special health monitoring because they are quite they are having quite an age in 56 years it's made a global problem but only otherwise for years to be mine having said this and you look around and it strikes me that special health monitoring is still not often or much then for me the value of information comes in because then I think in the end the monitoring if you want to promote special health monitoring or special health managing management quantifying the added value of monitoring in a pure objective way not only doing that but also providing management of decisions of policies along the way will for sure help the application of development and successful application of special health monitoring Hello so I didn't have too much time to prepare this I'll talk about this session in the framework of asset management in fact I've been working on the re-seeking of asset management in the last two years and in fact everything we talk about I agree with the panel in fact we are talking about the alignment about asset performance monitoring if you if we take the the main guidelines of the DAS-55 thinking of the institute of asset management the ISO 35000 or everything regards to asset performance monitoring in fact we are returning to promise our recovery infrastructure and we can replace reactive actions and buy sensory and long-term thinking and if we can develop behavior and in fact to anticipate how we will be deploying our resources in madness all the managers want from us it's not to tell them that we need a million of more they would like there to say that in five years we need a million and we can everything that will happen in the future and create a stable line of resource consumption in fact all this is aligned with this thinking from the technician community is capability to in fact to instrument measure our not only bridges in fact dice in fact slows and we all need in fact a dashboard that can start to to driven us for the decisions this behavior is becoming quite strange so it's better to prepare some actions now than wait for some accident in fact all this makes a lot of sense Thank you very much for your statements yeah those were already the local government statements very large degree I think about how should we enter the discussion so we have basically two phases we have the discussion with independent and then consecutively we will have the interaction with the audience anybody to respond on the second which has just been made well maybe summing up a little bit the the main way of looking at the challenges and potential of the value of information as you have been directed on let's say a classical engineering perspective and what do I mean by that I'm coming back to your comment why would we see the lockdowns in the Euro-Polish to improve non-stop the underlying rationale for that is an implicit fear that if we if we have to rely too much on the performance of the organizational capacity to run around and make sure that monitoring devices are working and that information is used currently and that criteria are set and checked etc we are we are cruising ourselves on the traditional civil engineering community into a new corner where we maybe do not have too much experience yet so really trying to keep things as simple as possible and passive as possible but then we don't have to rely on very complex heat having said that I also need to underline that the next evolution in the development and maintenance of the building environment it simply has to involve active systems it has to involve all the new technology which is being developed in different areas this is the only way we can achieve adequate efficiency in providing the functionality of most society and society to draw from so we need this development and then maybe what we could have done here also is to actually directly explicitly account for the part of the system not only the part of the system which we are measuring and monitoring but also the part of the system which is actively conducting all the monitoring in itself this would be very very important to understand how the performance of that system actually adds to achieving the objectives given the management of the structures of the building environment and on that aspect also utilizing big data and developing the basic basis in data mining which we actually we have access to significant amounts of data on the performance of structures but also on the performance of the organizations around the structures so when we are when we are devising inspection or monitoring spending deals at the level of this we are very often surprised to see what fragments of those plans are actually being implemented and also when we are checking how how did actual inspection results come or monitoring results transform back into decisions into actions so we had all the strategies on paper but in reality how did it work that type of knowledge is also really important to get into the picture in order to know what we are doing really maintaining or optimizing the organizations and safety and efficiency so but this is not let's say a mistake or this is not an explicit shortcoming it's just another step on the way in the evolution of the building environment and the management of the building environment so we are initiating a process here with this super important the traditional way of designing and maintaining the building environment that cannot that cannot persist for a very long time we have to significantly improve and this year is one of the steps we are making thank you very much the organizations could come back maybe especially the owners reflecting on the main barriers which are the main barriers to get some of this some of these ideas, some of these techniques some of these possibilities into action so for example and for what we are seeing so far I think we reached always engineering judgment skills to support the decision making process to reach the gap between that area of expertise and the people that make the decisions and I'm sorry to say this engineering judgment don't has a lot of value to the top managers this is my experience and these things one question two questions that I have related to costs the first one we are talking about we are talking about costs along the service lifetime of the stretches and we know in order to cost even better they for instance can be discounted to the president moreover costs are sensitive to costs I would like to know how this was addressed in the case studies discounting rates around 2 or 3 they are already way too big and the gap so the real problem here is that because this is what we are talking about the societal perspective in maintaining the building environment the real problem here is that the degradation of the building environment if the degradation of the building environment is faster so the rate of deterioration is faster than the economic growth in VR in severe problems and discounting in that case with a higher rate than the economic growth is going to to be a big dive at some point in time so it's going to follow up the economic impact in society in relation to down the road but something close to the rate of economic growth Thank you baby we can take on the second question this was about the concession periods anybody from the thank you for the answer I just want to maybe just to point out something I think is reminding me of I think this question is not clear there are some costs as well not only the changing rate but some costs as well as my knowledge so I'll talk about myself I'm quite curious some numbers that are very clear to be assessed mainly for example a company like Grisa or we don't want to talk about Grisa but companies like Grisa so major high-regency thousands of bridges to obtain these type of companies that have some shares in the market all for example assess costs of loss of reputation there so if there is a collapse of a bridge I assess these costs and I think that's important for this time this is a suggestion I'm not going to besides one of the people that should be joining this discussion which is from economics I will assess the type of costs of loss of reputation so I think we need these numbers but I think we are not experts to assess these numbers because there are a lot of problems here but it's from the economics I think if it's the further step in the future and I think it's quite important for these homeowners to have a better number if this bridge zero bridge or possible the gamma bridge is going to collapse how is the loss of reputation of the company it might be very important it might be putting in danger to the company just due to the reputation not because of the loss of symbol and I think this is a dimension of a problem that we are not forgetting we need to be more going deep perhaps and this should be by bringing the side of economics in the discussions it might be possible that is in line with what you said can I just add a comment on that the sole purpose of any private company is to survive and bring property from that point of view really the only purpose should be precisely what you are talking about if you take it to the extreme so yes I don't want to go to the extreme but it's a very important part private companies well yes so we have all these private companies and conversation years and actors in the free economy and of course they need to do what they need to do to keep business running and optimize their business and from a very precise perspective this is a good thing because this is what builds the market mechanisms on which we rely on in the society but there is another side to that swarm and that is that society is restraining only or say in addition behavior so there is no way that we can accept that those considerations could trigger that people embracing material and energy and having additional CO2 remissions that is an overall so that's clearly let's say they are from a society perspective we need efficiency, we need it more than ever and focus really has to be directed in this direction that's both of these things it's a very interesting discussion also the case study I presented when we first presented the results to the water authority we presented the results as not present value and you commented like we don't really think in that present value we think in direct cost in terms of the money we spend in the next year so what I'm wondering is there like I guess there is a big difference between private companies that subcontract from government organizations but is there amongst I don't know among the rich owners government organizations that often mention is there really good thinking in that present value so direct cost we just have to spend our money after that example it's a couple of times quite shocking but it's by the Swiss government they have the whole saying that any life cycle costing of quality departments of the Swiss society improving the roadway department it has to follow and discounting because they dictate and they dictate it I think for the first time this to be the same applies in Denmark so any life cycle costing made for the government institutions it has to be around 2.5% in Denmark it's way too much it's better than 5 or 6 or 7 5% in the atmosphere 3.5% but you can also yeah so maybe that's because because when I went to a water board I heard a story about someone who got kind of well finished but that's maybe a bit hard to say because he didn't spend his entire budget because he was more efficient than projected before so that shocked me quite quite badly but it makes me think like do we really have the incentive in the system to think in that respect so I don't think we do have them on all levels I think that's one of the main barriers I think you're a very important aspect of the problem which is a big barrier for thinking ahead because you're more considered with spending money planning for the next year than thinking ahead unless one of the rules over here has to change exactly that point you made there the given budgets and the need to exploit given budgets because otherwise the budgets for the next year could be reduced so you don't need to need your budget so this thing about the box type of budget elevations in these management organizations we did an assessment of what is the creation of sharing resources instead of putting them in different boxes and the impact is just enormous I mean there's so much waste in this in this traditional way of helping and this is also why we need to, we need not only to look at the value of information in total it's more important when it comes to assets in second humanity we really need to look at the bigger picture also how the assets are actually managed because knowing better in some parts of these organizations instead of it's surely more important that we should make a depletion about just to come back to what you were saying that most of these companies that have the concessions are only there to spend their budget and they have the specific parts with their budgets we actually have several places where people went toward us to ask everyone or to have an offer to go out just so that they could prove that their structure so that they can have the concessions even longer so it's not purely for the top of the structure but it's still a case where it really helps to improve the descendence just commenting on what you said Oscar White said that these days people know the cost of everything and the value of nothing right? my question is is there any kind of wronged value of information and so on it's hard because if you know you have to pay 100% now for monitoring versus a benefit which is really a risk reduction but risk reduction is really something but the risk has not yet eventuated that's the challenge so of course the driver is yes I have this amount of money all the drivers that pay for something which is effectively in terms of the honest risk reduction you can put your hands on it the risks are owned by the owner and the owner may involve the concession the risk can be sold but then the basis for the negotiation should be the risks and actions taken down and down the line in time to manage the risk and so this is surely the direction that these these developments have to take that also provides the incentives the incentives for the concession to do the right thing and we see some developments I guess you also experience this in the negotiations on concessions that risks and risk sharing is a part of the deal but A has a large potential for further developments but realizing that risk risk is completely equivalent with all of the pocket expenditures only a little bit later according to the best available amount of money so this is the way from a stand risk until society and decision makers really appreciate that fact we have not but this is one of the most important things we have to try to make a solution about all this I cannot speak for the rest of the Europe but in Croatia the government is the owner and decision maker for the old infrastructure system and for example a road directorate their board of directors is chosen every 4 years when a government is chosen and nobody wants to be the guy who would spend some amount of money in those 4 years in order to save money when you are looking for 20 years in the future so that is the problem there is a private contractor who runs and manages the infrastructures then they will think in a longer period of time in the long term but I am talking only about Croatia but there we tried a couple of times to talk to them to make them invest not a lot of money but nobody wants to be somebody who will spend something which has not been spent in order to reduce risk in further 30 years and they want direct the direct profit or it cannot be profit but they want to spend less because if they spend less then the balance is bigger and if the balance is bigger they will get chosen for another 4 years so it is a bit tricky to convince those people that they should invest now in order to make it worth it for 30 years this is unfortunately the lack of accountability we have in the political systems so political decision makers they are not held accountable for the decisions they make so that would also be a different problem because you may make decisions about that outcome even though it was the right decision safe based on the information you have so my point is that what we could and should try to reach in society is that any decision any significant decision on the administration of public goods, shared resources that they have a document decision based then we would be able to work on these problems that people have sub-optimizing their own career closing companies and also accountability and decision making because if in some point of time something happens if a tunnel collapses the guy who is at the moment in charge would be a responsible not somebody who could make a bad decision 20 years ago that's the problem accountability it is what I understand in asset management of pavements on the roads why because the life cycle of pavement is much shorter and sort of coincides with the local election perhaps national I was told by road asset management manager about people complain and so on next election cycle when we vote current city council or whoever is responsible now bridges are in tough case because life cycle decades and so on current decision makers before the bridge developers program they would probably be already there yes exactly they gain popularity by building stuff and then next generation they care about it they got questions from the audience so from the side of the decision makers the owners which would be the most important things to like push I think it's very important implementing it you have to include stakeholders in the process so they learn to use it very style of point if they are integrated they will see that I think that's the old question actually where oil and gas is where I've worked before it was common that we had a bike to provide and the idea is that maintenance which is conducted together with the engineer and the operator and that is a exchange of moment which is very important that ties the decision makers together with the process of learning which I think is very important I think if you talk about education you have to go back to the university education because at that level it's already with the education of a student so unfortunately at the university this additional information which you have the student is more used to apply a strict code and this is the education of the university in many of the universities so what it can be done in the education is to bring these methods more to education to gain more flexibility so to be able to adapt also to new technologies and other methods to use other strict application of the code normally the challenge of education is in larger when we talk about the education we talk about the education in our domain but it's the management where we may not always find something now what you just said you know it's a little bit about the egg and the hen you mentioned that that opening of the horizon not always just to have to follow the code strictly that I agree for sure but there's another approach and it has been taking a couple of times probably many times I remember one which is an example from Norway where suddenly already in the I think it was in maybe in 95 or 96 the Norwegian code for regulating offshore activities specified that inspection intervals should be fixed but justified where they came to and say integrity management of your assets so this and justified it certainly opened up for completely new arena and what I actually think that when it comes to the use of things developing here maybe another approach is to change the code and then the need for education supporting the use of the code will simply come because there's a need I will do both exactly it's probably a two way project so in Portugal we have fixed inspection periods like in Germany and in other countries for leaders it's fixed every five years you have to do that so you have taken it from a different Germany or from another country what he mentioned is a very people like to have some fixed intervals and either they have their own or many people think I will take it from your course of Alfa, America one of the most progressive industries was the oil industry so we had also for platforms much then the owner need a lot of investigations for a grant there were many platforms in West Africa where we worked so we did a lot of campaigns inspection and monitoring and we proposed another time interval and made an interval for the platforms also for lifetime extension which was also a pleasure the benefits were very high so I think it is possible that is what I want to mention it is possible if you look at other domains it is happening so also you are example in Russia for the British but if you take talents all the big candidates in Europe, the President and the online safety measures because safety measures they can be some sensors for fire which is 10 years but can be also a service tunnel which is 100 years and in fact if you look at the Gota tunnel it is without a service tunnel where the Europe tunnel has a service tunnel so there is a I am very optimistic there is a progress I will not be pessimistic actually a progress and it might take some time but we will be there but if I may add I think they are learning from experience and really when you learn from experience it is from bad experience for example we have on our Adriatic coast on the highway we have six big concrete arch bridges which are really large and they are subjected to very aggressive environment because of the really strong north-eastern wind and the sea there is a big problem with corrosion first arch was built I think in the 60s in the 60s and last one at the beginning of the century now so 18 years ago when they realized that those built in the 60s 70s have a really bad problem with corrosion and they need to reinforce and strengthen the pier every couple of years every 10-15 years then they decided first a big concrete cover on this last one it was 10 cm and they built in permanent chloride diffusion sensors etc as the investor is all the time the same he has been creative road director they realized if they invest more they will maybe save more in the further period but they needed 40 years and 5 bridges which are in really bad state and they have to be constantly repaired to understand it so there is there is an optimistic rate but I think it's going a bit slow it's your own life it's your own life which you are pessimistic everybody would be pessimistic pessimistic because it takes time but in a long time I am optimistic I have to say because it takes time I have more than 5000 students outside I am teaching so I speak to them I have some feedback and so on so I think it takes time even for the development of Europe also they take time they are trying to change small things they are you see they are in detail they are spending a lot of time and bigger things it's difficult to change but I think that it is in a long term there will be some like coming out of projects like this and so on so I would not be so pessimistic oh I am not so pessimistic it's not exactly it's supposed to let you see to it by saying yeah exactly in Germany in 2020 but now they are making it in New York but it is not easy to make it so fast sometimes in the technical investment unit the president said we should talk all lectures in English by 2000 and it's impossible in a country like Germany the horizon of optimization is different than the residual lifetime of some people so I ok we have been talking and online quite some issues in the decision making and we are touching upon these with our decision analysis because we at value of information analysis when we look at the operation phase yes and maybe some points we can really work on maybe able to read that and some points we are just about whatever whatever good who are you talking to and yeah what can you do now we can have dinner