 Ah, great. This begins to quiet things down a little bit. Thank you. So people are still still filing in, but we want to go ahead and get started and I suppose everybody has figured out that I'm Jim Hobart and I don't you know, I don't need to say anything more than that because What we want to do is is introduce our important guests tonight and Say how honored we are to have you with us dr. Ct. Vivian so The Reverend dr. Ct. Vivian Was born in Missouri small town, Missouri and I think about the age of six moved over to McComb, Illinois Right by so he that's where he spent all of his growing up years really after six years old was in McComb attended Western, Illinois University and Ended up after that in was it Peoria. Yeah. Yeah, and and then begin to be a troublemaker of Peoria Working for the Y Well, that was a little later a little later. Okay, but our community center first community Yeah, and and then he Decided that he was going to go to theological school. Yeah, so he moved to Nashville and Attended the Baptist Seminary there Okay, and there's more a journalist than I was and it was very involved in Nashville as the The civil rights movement was beginning to grow and develop in Nashville He he was involved with core During the era when James Farmer was the the leader of core he became a staff member for the Southern Christian Leadership Conference and Anybody here not seeing the pictures of dr. Ct. Vivian having his conversation With the county sheriff Jim Clark If you've seen eyes in the prize you've seen that I Told him just a few minutes ago. I spent eight days in in Selma in 1965 and there were there were three people On the on the SCLC staff that impressed me first of all, of course, dr. Martin Luther King And and then there were there were two other of the leadership team of Southern Christian Leadership Conference People often refer to them as Latinas to dr. King. I like to think of them as allies to dr. King Because each of them brought something to that team that nobody else brought That's right, and it wouldn't have been the same without any of them So those those two leaders then they would there were a couple of field workers in SCLC who also were very important to me or people he knew well one was James orange. Yep And the other was Albert Turner. That's right, and they They carried me around Central Alabama going into black churches saying if this man could come all the way from Burton from Chicago Actually, it was Massachusetts then if he could come all the way from Massachusetts You can come to Selma. It was mass meetings like we experienced last night to encourage people to come So that that was my my experience of getting to know ct. Vivian and I've been A great admirers his ever since I've had some opportunities subsequently to meet and greet him and Have always enjoyed that The the the planning team will tell you that when we came to talk about who might we have as Speakers here that I was a a great advocate for ct. Vivian And they trusted my judgment and so here we are His life has gone on since the era of the civil rights movement And he's been involved in many many things about which I think he will share some of that with us tonight So Dr Ct. Vivian, we're delighted to have you with us this evening And he and I are going to have a conversation And then we hope to save a little time toward the end if people have Questions they'd they'd like to raise so the way this is organized is that Looking at it from the questions around Ct's early life When he was a youngster And then during the era of the civil rights movement and then what's he been doing since then? so Dr. Vivian As a as a child you were growing up in Missouri and Illinois Who were the earliest influences on life? Regarding your sense of your own self worth and dignity and rights And who was it that gave you these messages? Number one was my grandmother Now if you're in an african-american community The only person that can Well, let's put it the other way is that Is that your grandmother? Was as important to you in a black home as well almost as god, right? And And that's where you got most everything you were going to get. Yeah, so grandmother was sort of god's representative on earth Yeah, and that's true and and you may have you know 10 grandmothers And All of them in their household Ah About the same thing. Yeah. Did you have brothers and sisters? No, I didn't you were a simple child Any brothers knows and no sisters I was making it by myself So so in those early years you mentioned that your family your church your school all What helped to give you your sense of of your own worth and dignity? Precisely is that it was a matter of the church Number one without doubt without doubt grandma Really number one, but she's part of the church. You're right and to go together. There's no separation there, right? and I remember My grandmother wouldn't let me go to uh to uh church one one evening Wednesday Parameting She wouldn't let me go Well, I went out. Yeah, so I went for something I'd done Yeah, so I went out and laid down in in Remember this goes way back and We're out and run and in the uh Where the cars? Went in the street, right? I laid down in there because and let's gonna let them run over me because my grandmother wouldn't let me go to church I say So you can get an idea of how important the church really was to me, right? Yeah, and uh, uh and my grandmother Saw me and she came out and got me and she washed me off and act like she was mad But uh, I could see that smile. Yeah, I could see the smile. Yeah Well, let me let me kind of turn that around if that if those were the influences positively On you growing up What were the the earliest? experiences with with people who would deny you your dignity and your your rights and Your self-worth you see, uh, I only became nonviolent later in life And uh And and and seriously I I have uh, I have some doubt about how Early to start your children. Uh, is to truly being nonviolent and understanding it. Uh, I have a son that Has told me that uh, you Didn't help me in those first years He was he said because he took the punishment rather than then Play with the idea of nonviolence. Yeah in our neighborhood, right? and the uh, and I I I have to ask myself that because I think this I know exactly The first time somebody tried to try to beat me up. I beat them up Um Right. Now the point being is should I I'm I'm now But the point being is I did as the uh, uh, uh, I could whip everybody in school and in my in my school except, uh, uh, uh, uh, guy in in uh, in the sixth grade We had uh, uh, two four six, uh, kind of yeah kind of right and the uh, uh Nobody beat me up Now that was interesting and I had a But I didn't want to beat anybody else up So what I had is the that nobody was going to fight anybody Under in a grade under them I see all right Now I did not know but I was working that was my first Real understanding Of my warning to be what we now call nonviolence. There weren't any words for it. Yeah, you didn't have any concepts for that That's right. I mean remember gondi Was somebody we didn't even know about right? Uh as in in basically in america, right? It was it was really much later in the game, right? And the uh, uh, and so what I Had but I tell you when I really became nonviolent His name almost came to me, but uh, he gave me a black Valentine car, you know one of those Things that made fun of blackness. Yeah et cetera et cetera right so uh, the teacher This was the depression right when you're as old as I am You know what it means. You didn't just come on the edge of it. You were not eating it If you understand what I mean, right? You didn't have a lot of food Treated and what you got was given right right and the uh and and so We were we were pretty pretty Difficult group. See I I truly appreciate Knowing that If you don't have food clothing shelter Decency around you right it is not your fault. Yeah, right? It's it's a culture should never let children be treated like that. Amen Let me just shift this just a little bit Um There you were you grew up in macomb. You went to western Illinois But then you left That area and and moved over to peoria. Yeah, and you were there in the community center. I graduated from college. Yeah and um Then you you decided you were going to be a preacher Yeah, in fact, I was waiting for the calling Uh for uh for years. I mean, uh In fact, I was through college. I'd gone had already been chosen to go to coge yeah, uh, so it wasn't a matter of uh, of uh Not wanting to or couldn't do or stuff like that. Yeah If the point being is I believe that you needed to be called to go to the ministry have a sense of calling But that's exactly right. And uh, uh, and as a result of that, I was not going to uh, go to To to seminary and tell that They gave me a scholarship to coge, right? Yeah, but uh, then time had passed. I had I had married and so forth because uh If I and my now watch that too Uh, see, uh, watch that one too because uh, that same son of Sonia He wanted to be a minister But he wanted to be called Yeah, because I was because you were and I can I can tell tell he and all the world When I did he knew that right? So he did not want to go to the ministry until he was actually called in fact, uh, he went His undergraduate work Was finished and he went to a seminary except his up in the hills of of uh, of uh North Carolina. Yeah, and uh, and it was Presbyterian and uh, and and and he said this that as we used to say as black people Yeah, he said if you're not if you're not Uh, uh I thought somebody said it if you if you are not uh, a Baptist Maybe Methodist maybe. Yeah, somebody's been somebody's been messing with your religion, right? And uh, and so I love the way you shook your hands and said you know what we're talking about Uh And the and the point being is that that was that was kind of a basic understanding is that You have to really know What religions all about or you have no business deciding you are going to be? A A person for god and you haven't done anything but decide that It's a nice place to be It's got to be it's got to be deep. It can't just be up in your head Your heart that's exactly right and it has to mean something in fact on those kind of issues one thing stands out What have you done not what have you thought? Exactly. Amen You got the call you found your way to nashville Yeah, okay, and and you told me earlier that that very early on the james farmer Was an important person for you in your your development sure when I was in peoria See I was see there's years in between Sort of thing one of the main differences between black and white churches and ministry Yeah, is that uh It's a slow thing for us, right? Most of us are really married before we Come into ministry. We don't go straight from yeah, you're not 21 years old That's exactly right. You're not you know, you just don't go like you're going through grade school into high school, right? Is it uh, it isn't that way? And I met a lot of white guys later on that that was also true of right And and so When you when you really gave it real meaning It had to come out of something deeper then when I got the call to the ministry I I didn't want I wanted to tell my wife I had to tell my wife, right? But the point is I didn't want to yeah, but uh, but uh because I would be going away to school Yeah, without an income. She had the only only job. Yeah But so the night uh that I told her we uh She said to me says, uh, I got a secret to tell you And uh, she's cooking an evening meal That's those words way back when they did it by themselves and Uh And the uh, and uh, and uh, so uh She I said I got something to tell you. She said me first. Me first. Yeah Uh, she never said me first. He says I am I will be first That's pretty definitive And uh, you understood that right? Yeah, and so uh, I said, okay, baby, and uh, so we had our evening meal and uh, we went up to bed and uh, and we were lying in the dark looking at the ceiling and uh, uh She said remember I'm first so she told me and she told me we're having a child ah Now that was our first child, right and the uh, uh And then so then she said tell me what you Well, you see it got worse because you know, uh, we weren't just man and wife now We had a family to get a family right and the uh, and uh, uh, and so I said no No need to go into that and uh, uh She uh, so uh, I said, uh, no she's and uh, uh, so I told her finally because you know, you tell your wife everything Well, I don't know. I don't know all the details, but I do know you ended up in national gordon school That's exactly right. Yeah, and that was and that was where you you began to to have a connection with james farmer Was in national no, no, I I mean foreman Foreman, uh Foreman was a long time before because that was earlier. Yeah, see I hadn't left Uh, uh pure uh Okay, see jim farmer was ahead of most. Yes. Give me a point and uh, uh, there's a movie on jim his his father knew greek so well you see he sat underneath the tree in this campus and uh, and uh, uh Uh laugh at the greek jokes He was he was really uh, and that was jim uh jim was trained that way, right? Yeah, and uh, then uh jim uh, went to a seminary and uh, would not take would not take the the the uh, uh His diploma He wouldn't accept his diploma. No because he said uh, uh It it wasn't it wasn't worth it wasn't worth it was what it did not do was as important to him as what it did do Yeah, I got you uh, and uh, you see see Really what i'm saying to you is this to most of us the stuff that other people took for granted And like having and thought that was great stuff It wasn't even serious enough to take Yeah, seriously see see jim farmer graduated and and immediately went to the unions Right see because uh, he didn't want uh, he didn't want to uh Teach something that he did not like or do something that he had no that gave no meaning to his life or the life of other people Right, uh, and that was all of us who were movement people, right? Uh, uh, you you've got to give that and remember that was 12 years before Martin that's right. See my first actions were 12 years before before martin emerged in 55. Yeah, you see I mean That's a long time Yeah, when uh, when uh farmer and the and the labor unions Yeah, because you then you were talking about real life, huh? Yeah, how do you deal with uh, uh, How people are going to live what kind of food are they're going to have a chance to eat? FDR was uh, was there right making certain that this you were fed because other people didn't right uh, uh, and uh, and and youth uh You had the ccc you had the youth Listen, we would not have been able to be ready for any kind of activity as a nation If it hadn't been for those programs that really gave a chance for young people to have something, right? And the ccc was the civilian conservation court. That's exactly right Uh, uh You know when you really see it you have to think about What does it mean to be a minister, right? Is it to have a degree and say, uh, mama, I'm daddy. I'm hey, I'm all right now. I'm gonna be able to take care of myself Uh, uh, uh, is that what it's about is that uh Uh, and and Jim was uh that kind of fellow of fact First time I met Jim, uh, we had a long conversation and he said that that uh, he was in a Trailer Where his office was as a union person, right? and He says uh, and uh, the light was on that night But he always had the light on you know, I mean you're working, you know, you're working winter time comes quick, right? and uh, he says, uh A bullet came came through His window, but high remember See business people didn't mind killing labor labor leaders, right? Yeah You know see I can just tell your ages by by how you answer questions like that, right? It is because uh, you you you you you had to live it Because you were already in a a nation that didn't want you if you were poor Right. Yeah, uh and the uh, uh, uh, and he said, uh Uh, he knows that the guy that shot through the window Intended to miss him. Intended to miss him. Yeah, because he said, uh, nobody then could really miss Through even a short window if the light was behind it. Yeah Because uh, uh, you also uh, had had a rifle in order to have food Yeah, that's right. You know, I mean, you know, it's a whole different world, right? Uh, and the uh, and We think all they wouldn't had to do that now So yes, they would and not going to do it too too bad. So I I I think that uh, we all need to get ready for What I think is going to be coming Is that uh, that we're going to see billionaires come together And run it all All right And and when they run it all you can bet that uh, at the bottom of it It's going to be a lot of people that that that Didn't make it. Yeah, don't make it and won't make it. All right And that's where we come in That's where ministry has meaning that's where churches that care about people come in Yeah, and and just to remind people that that core Organized the freedom rides. That's right that came down from washington in the 1950s. Yeah, the 50s late 40s or late 40s early 50s the first freedom rides. That's right. Yeah So he had he had an impact on your life and uh so so There you are in in nashville And uh, as I recall having been there myself highlander folk school Is not that far away. It's down the road toward chattanooga. That's exactly right And uh, I had the good fortune when I was 17 years old to spend several weeks there in the summertime One of those transformative events in my life to be in that environment where at at that time still the major focus Was on labor organizing and education But that was 52 And it's very soon began to shift So could you tell us about a little bit about your experience with highlander and the staff people there? Okay, in my case, it was a little later And what I mean by that is this what you heard the story about Martin king was a communist and we know because he was at that communist camp up there Uh, uh, uh, it's that uh, uh, uh, the uh the thing that uh Why that stands out for me because I was with martin at the time he was there And he was he just came went there to give a speech right and uh, uh, and uh, And if we left right after he gave the speech, I mean immediately after we left the speech But they had signs all up down the highway, right? So you know who owned all those coal mines? Is that uh, uh, uh, is that uh, uh, uh, you uh, uh, martin had left Within 20 minutes after after, uh, uh, uh, he finished the speech. Yeah, right But uh, that gives you an idea of the low level of of life And how they would put you in jail for nothing All right, and uh, how you also had a hard time getting a job if you talked about helping poor people So uh, you know, I'm just just I just want you to hear this because if you're younger You really don't know what's coming So let me ask you this, um One of the things I found at highlander Was the music director there was a woman named zilpia horton. Yeah And she was the wife of the director of the highlander folk school Miles Horton She had gone off to south carolina to organize some tobacco workers around johnson And she picked up on an old spiritual hymn And she recast it into we will overcome we shall actually know pete seager changed the will to shell But but before pete seager there was uh, it was uh, it really was uh, uh A gospel yeah was a gospel hymn right and and it was and the words of it Far more profound than any Before sense, right? Okay, if in my heart I do not yield I shall see god someday Okay, that's that's the original that's the original when it was a gospel song. Yeah when it was a Uh, uh, you see what I mean when we made it up on the fields. Yeah Well, zilpia recast it into she did we will overcome much then pete seager looked at and said shouts a better word Yeah, and then there was a guy named guy caravan a guy who got involved with snick. Yeah He was and he was the music director. Let me tell you about that. Yeah, tell me about guy caravan Yeah, see because uh guy first came to niceville. Yeah, all right. There wasn't any snick All right You have to understand there wasn't any snick That's that's right. No and uh, and uh, and sclc was just getting underway for young people in niceville right is that guy comes in town and uh, and and when guy and guy had several years He taught at a school in california and for several years he came to to South carolina And uh, because he was hunting for the songs and making them authentic for About how they were really sung in those days, right? Uh, uh In the backwoods of south carolina By the people who started it, right, right? And uh, uh, and so, uh, uh, guy, uh, guy Learned them the right way. How you like this? If If in my heart I do not yield I shall see god someday. I just told you that one didn't yeah, right. So I got another one for you, right? That is that uh, uh, uh, a guy guy said, uh Oh goodness sakes Guy had guy made up songs and he found songs that were just uh, just tremendous Ain't I got a right to the tree of life? All right, that ain't bad Is that uh, uh, uh, this is this is the kind of stuff that movement produced right and uh And uh guy produced it. No sooner had it become famous, right? Hollywood gets in on the act And nobody knows that guy carolina existed. Yeah, right is that uh, uh, uh, uh, uh We could have had 10 Movement songs That the nation would have been able to yeah to to have right But uh guy guy would take his uh, his Banjo, it's one of those kind of Instruments, and I'm I'm I'm from the city you see And the uh, and and he'd start patting his foot right and uh, and he'd come up with all these Wonderful wonderful songs boy and uh, uh, is that Every people's movement and that's what we're talking about right is people's movement every people's movement Does more for a nation? than then then A half a dozen different times that you have a new congress right and they write they ride And those movements all ride on the people's music. That's exactly right. See because they're they they they created right is the uh, uh When veterans came back, right the same thing happened, right and when they when they uh, uh, uh went to the capital Right just to ask to get money back that they were already old, right And then uh, and uh, uh, and the generals that had led them into battle while they laid back in the back Were daring enough. Yep. Yeah to to to Make all those soldiers former soldiers, right that was came in just trying to get something to eat Some money and who came by boxcar Right. All right. Uh, and uh, uh, uh, they uh, uh The generals that had led them into battle were the same ones now that was uh, uh Burning up the little shacks they had and all that sort of thing and and shooting them out of position Right. These were veterans of world war one. That's exactly right. Yeah so so okay The people's music influenced all those movements out that's the point some of us are familiar with uh, a little Book called the red book that the wobblies international waters of the world Put put together in the in the first part of the century Every movement you look at whether it be around labor or civil rights or whatever And continuing to today rides on that music as being central to what Motivates and energizes precisely and and just to get my peace in. Yeah Most of that music goes back to to uh, uh, uh, uh, spirituals. Yes, see what I mean is that uh, uh, and and It goes back to workers again it goes back to people who who who Uh, we're thinking had to be thinking about our humanity. Yeah, not how much money you're gonna make And we've got some of those kind of musicians with us this this week. Yeah, that's that's where I can keep talking I'd like to just shift gears just a little bit. Oh sure doc Can you tell us about the influences outside the broad christian tradition? That had an impact on you And I mean I already have a sense of of where where you might go with that But I you know for example a mohondas ghandi. Yeah A sense of making that one The point being is is that it's it's so important because We got to know little or nothing about ghandi here You know what I mean, but you know who did? people who were suffering now, uh, uh, uh, see that's why martin king knew Uh, non-violent direct action People that were seeking for a way to get rid of oppression Right. See black people were the first to be talking about ghandi Why in america, right? Why because we were trying to find a A strategy To do what they did To the british Yeah, gotcha. You remember is that uh, uh, because This country was the oppressor Yeah, all right, and we had to find a way to convert them You can play with the language, right? But and and Very very important is that uh, how do you convert people? Who control the country you're in control the wealth control everything else in it? And they're on top and they are in in in a wall street situation all right And you Think you're going somewhere, but you may never get there. Yeah. Yeah Well, here's here's here's a question play into the crowd um Some place along the line You discovered that there were people out there whose religion was unitarian or unitarian universities, right? Yeah, so what what could you tell us about what you thought about those people? Well, I said Listen doc, I really I I you're one of the groups that I was concerned about We appreciate that That's great, but but uh, but no, but you see because you were different And we didn't find the racism With you that we found with most other churches Right That's that's the glory piece you see Can you be a christian and a racist at the same time? A real christian there we go. I mean a real christian can you be Because what is there's only three important words? as justice truth And love Oh man And if you're and if you're uh, and if you're uh, uh, if your understanding of religion is so low That you think that you can fool god Right, uh, uh, then you know You have to find a whole another way to live but the point is they're escaping it How can you be a racist hating people when the central Thing the central word for all for most all religion, but definitely for christianity, right? Is love All right, how can you then talk about being a christian, right? I just like to ask me to do was your granddaddy a christian and you are southern baptist Yeah, very concerned Right, uh, uh because you see What do you have to see when you see movement? It was it was about moral and spiritual things that martin was about It's not an accident That martin king has a phd in philosophical theology, right? And it's and it's not an accident that he was in the street working with folk and uh, uh, uh Deciding that People had to be free of the problems that they were that were destroying them. All right is that uh, it's not an accident It's just that he's knowledgeable All right And when we and when we really understand our religion Right, uh, the basic one in which all of us practically all of us came up up up on All right, uh, is that uh, uh, love is the whole whole thing Yeah, nobody has no religion as the corner on that. Yeah, but but that's that's the point See because it's what you do for other people and to other people Uh, uh, that's what it's about. Do you love somebody? Huh, that's the major piece. There's no been no great religion since since jesus Why because he's got he's got it all wrapped up in a thing It's really it rip it really. I know what you're saying, but but if you don't love somebody You have to ask yourself. Are you religious at all? Uh, and doesn't matter what name you put on it, right? Well, let me ask you this question How did you love jim clark down in soma? Yeah, I did in fact tell us about that. Oh, I will Listen, see I didn't hit jim clark Jim clark hit me. I know that right Knocked me down. I got up. You know why? Because God Allowed me to See see I don't play with that stuff, right? It's it's serious, right is that is that Everything I've done in the movement Has been because God was with me Uh, it's just like the wife, you know same same story. All right, we didn't have anything But hey, we can still love our neighbor And uh, and in fact, I just uh, I had a Uh, uh, a board. I was on the board of a bank All right, uh We we put a hundred thousand dollars only time we had a hundred thousand dollars, right and and We we put a hundred thousand dollars into a bank because Black people in in atlanta needed a bank All right, the point being is you know what the wife said The wife said sooner later because you know, you talk, you know, you don't you know, you don't take that lightly You don't come home and say, uh, you know the last dollar We got we're gonna put in it so I can be on the board of a bank Is that you just don't do that, right? And uh, uh, and uh, but you see what happened My wife said to me when I asked her about it Should we or shouldn't we and she says, uh, uh We've put the little money we've had In the movement and everything that went with it. Yeah She said, uh, and the next great battle we're going to have to have Is a matter of income The great battle we're going to have to him as a matter of of can people have enough to really Get a decent education or are you just getting an education from those, uh, that, uh, uh, uh Control everything. Yeah And but you can't get anything Because you don't have enough money to have an education for your children. Yeah, and it's just Well, pardon me, but but uh, but no, I started telling you something else, but uh, uh, but but but see but that's That that's that's that's the point. You know is that uh, Do you love people enough? to uh, to uh My wife did she says hey Says we've got to fight the economic battle sooner or later And that people shouldn't have to be without simply because uh, we we haven't won yet, right? And uh, we lost it all but it took them 23 years to get us, right? My point being is is that for 23 years We've been helping people and you know as soon as our bank went down, you know what happened Telephone calls kept coming to everybody was on the board Black or white black or white. Yeah Because we had both right, uh, uh, and it came back and it was really a black bank but uh Two guys stayed right till the end To two white guys stayed right to the end Two other white and I tell you this because you're you're one of the few groups. It's going to be inter interracially in fact. Yeah, yeah, right and and uh, uh, uh, How how how do we Have these successes. I got a guy wrote and said, uh, would you would you write me a thing for my new book? and he said I want them to know, uh, That uh, that we that interracial material works When people are serious See, I mean if they just want to say oh, you know, we had we had them over for dinner So around that concept of of love and and the universality of love One of my theological educators was my daughter when she was three years old And she was upset with me about something and she said daddy. She said I love you, but I sure don't like you Yeah, that's right, doc. And I think we could apply that to jim clark, too, right? In fact, oh, yeah, we were talking about jim Look Look, let me tell you let me tell you about jim clark. You know jim clark, uh, uh went to jail Yes, he did and and uh when he got out of jail and because he was uh breaking the law really breaking the law This seems like uh, some of you know all of that, right, but but the point being is is that he uh, uh He was being paid by people who ran liquor from from uh The gulf on on the way up to chicago to work and be dispersed everywhere, right? is that uh, is the uh, uh that was and and The same people that Told the old boy jim. You're a wonderful person, right? Were the first people to let him down Uh, uh because they knew he was wrong all the time, but let me give it to you I talked with some nuns All right, that uh, uh were in soma who came back to do studies on cell, right? and uh, uh, and and this woman said it took them 20 years in this town Before they came to an understanding that what they were doing was wrong Wow, that's how deep that hate the the The the that's how deep it all is Somebody needs to save the society amen And we don't have to talk about it though. We're talking about Jesus after a while and god this and god that right Is the point being is we've got to talk about it like we believe it All right, okay Talking about nuns, um reminds me of women And uh, yeah, so far The question I have is could you could you reflect for us a little bit on the women in the movement? Yeah, many of whom were not as well known as the men in the movement, but were also very important So who who could you tell us about what can you tell us about a quick way to do it is our wives? All right, is that uh, my my my wife, uh, uh Cared the same level that I did yeah about everything right, but we had six children Right and and she she was more concerned about that than anything else And but she taught them Right While she was while she was rearing them And when I came over this my wife could have made my children hate It was been easy, right? I mean I was gone all the time And uh Making something happen we hope and it did it happened right it could have not happened could not happen. That's exactly right and uh, and uh My and my wife, uh, just uh, was very clear When she talked to the kids Listen, let me tell you their clerk's clan Ran a group Not ran the group. I mean they had a group of clansmen Going past our our front door And I I wasn't home Where were you living then? Uh in uh, uh right below, uh, uh What what's the uh, uh, big Pardon me No, uh, I was thinking about we were living right outside of Of Atlanta Atlanta Decatur Decatur is where the uh, what the big rock Stone mountain stone mountain. Yes. They would go up to stone mountain Right to uh to burn across Oh the great christians And and as a result right is that uh, my wife They could have come in on my wife at any time Right. Uh, uh But and my wife wrote a book on Coretta Mrs. King right I you know why I think she wrote She never would say it directly But but but the thing is is that why she did is because she admired Uh, Coretta because she knew what Coretta had to put up with All right that here you are right And here's your husband's gone all the time right You you don't know What's going to happen right and uh, and that's the way the wives of movement were Yeah, all right and the uh, uh, and uh, so but we get all the honor You know, oh, yes. Oh ct something Yeah, so uh, but my wife is is uh, you know is suffering uh, coretta We see her Smiling and laughing right, but you didn't see her all the time because the cameras only take it when they need it right is that uh The wives of of action people And it's not just our movement right Uh, they are the ones that suffer Because it's all the time and they happen to love you Right And those are the only people that you know that love you by the way Give them a point and uh, uh, uh, and when you think about it, right and and and listen if anybody If anybody is going to do something like put their life on the line So they can be admired Forget it forget it because they've forgotten about you two weeks later All right, uh, uh, you know Well, let me ask you this I mean I couldn't agree with you more that that you know the home life and instilling values Into our children is central and they've got to be parents to do that. That's exactly right In addition to that though in the movement itself There were activists women In fact, there were and they were they were basically younger and they didn't have children Right, uh And or they had a job in the local well, but you in Nashville you must have known Ella Baker Oh, yeah, and you must you must have known Diane Nash. Oh, Diane Nash was a student I definitely know and I but and you know what I love Is that there were more guys involved than women And they voted Diane as a leader of all the student movement that was going on there, right? See, this is what when you really love people and you're working for something beyond your own ego You don't care who's the leader. Are they worth leading? Worth being a leader, right? And uh, and so you do it. I you don't I I belong to a community church found out that uh, that uh, uh That there was a white community church, right? Uh-huh. And so we decided that we were going to come together And uh, because we didn't care whether it was white or black or yellow or pink God's not right. So what makes a difference, right? So, uh, uh, and and what happened was that, uh, We met one year And uh, and we decided every other person every other in the line of the president and by President be one vice president would be the then the other color, right? And uh, and you go out of way all down that way We said we were going to do it for three years We only did it one year one Because we found out it's kind of stupid, right? Uh Now but it did what it was only because we found out that was true. Yeah, but just because the southern baptist church Uh, uh Has a black church now Yeah, that doesn't mean they're not racist See but they can't kind they kind of think so. Yeah Okay, so We've we've covered a good bit of Of your early life. Yeah. Oh, yeah We've talked about your your activist life during the period of the civil rights one But you've had a pretty long life since then. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, what did I do? What are you even doing with yourself? Oh I haven't I'm waiting for that one Uh, no, no, here's the thing is that that's a decision I really had to make Uh, uh, now that the movement was basically over. Yeah, what am I going to do? There's only one thing I cared about that we Got would would continue to get rid of racism in the land of the free and the home of the bird So I started doing workshops Right and uh, and I had the best workshop in the nation. I mean they I'll tell you that my son has now done it, right? Uh, uh, uh When people went through our workshop, they never forgot it Don't don't yet, right is because it grew out of People that were deeply concerned about getting rid of racism not how much money they made, right? I you know Here I go. It sounds like a bragging, but it's not it's too late for all that my my son But but uh My my son, uh took over for me, right? But uh the years before while he was In the military trying to figure out I know what that sounds like, but uh in the military Is that uh Getting Getting trained and ready and all that sort of thing, right? He was just in the military came out because he saw me on Oprah Winfrey's show Right first time anybody been on her show two days in a row Right and boom two days in a row And she saw it and she was he was ready to to go to the next level of uh, of military And and decided not to sign up And he left and came on back home and said teach me The point being is I did but you know what he's better than I am now Because things have changed Huh, and this is the big story Right not about that, but about the whole culture We have changed Because we laid it on the line early, right? We had a great leader And we had a strategy Yeah, and that strategy is non-violent direct action And we can never get rid of The problems that we have until we get rid of violence All right So that sounds to me like what you might claim would be your advice to The younger folks and to the activists about Where they ought to be investing their lives is am I right about that? Well, you know since you said it and I'm thinking about it I think so That's it though is that uh, uh until we are ready to love people We are never going to I mean as a human race right? Is that we until we love other people? We're playing games with ourselves Gandhi came into London because he had beat the British, and they knew it now, finally. And they just wanted to get off looking good. So he comes in, and they call him to ask him to come, and he comes in the plane, but they're getting ready to say, we've been wrong all the time, you know what I mean? They can't say it until they say it in a certain way, you know what I mean? And so Gandhi is getting off at the plane. And remember back in the days that most of us here knew, you walked down the steps, and on to the dirt and on into the place. So he is walking down the steps, and the old man now, you know, he was in jail for 17 years and never gave up the struggle. That isn't something for all the rest of us. But he won over the whole British Empire, who liked to brag that the sun never sets on British soil, or aren't we somebody? We kill everybody that tries not to obey us, aren't we somebody? Because we can kill more of them, they can kill of us, right? Yeah. That's the way it sounds, isn't it? And until we get rid of violence, and somebody, the old man's walking down, and somebody says, Mr. Gandhi, what do you think of Western civilization? And the old man looked around, and he looked at, I think he knew where the sound came from anyway, but he was playing that game, I've seen politicians play it too, where, who was that, the Jekyll, that just hollered at me, you know, and was putting me down, and so forth. Oh, it's you, Jim. How are you, Jim? How's your father and mother? But so he's walking down, and they say, Mr. Gandhi, what do you think of Western civilization? And the old man looked around, and he said, oh, he says, what do I think of Western civilization? He says, yes. He says, it would be a good idea, it would be a good idea. Let me ask you a question about a couple of current active movements that have a lot of young people involved with them, and one of them would be the Occupy movement. The Occupy movement. Is that the problem with it, it didn't do the basic things that a movement has to do. You see, you have to have a strategy that you use. It doesn't matter what the strategy is, will it work? Number two, you've got to train your people. All right? And they didn't, I had six of these, but I only have two or three of them now because it's been a long time. Yeah. Is that right? You know, I mean, that's been, I'm very honest, you know, is that, and you have to understand that you've got to be with it over a long length of time, and you've got to train your leadership. Okay. All right? And if you don't, you just run into a no-win situation. See, this is why we have to talk about the mass movements before us, right? This is why we train people in nonviolent direct action, right? What Gandhi learned is stuff that we've got to learn now. We've got to learn it now. That's right. And the point being is we think because we make money, we're the best thing in the world. All right? But the only people who are going to get any of it, you know, speaking of Gandhi, the other thing that stands out for me is that, I know, and I am. No, we're doing fine. We're doing fine. We're doing fine. All right, good. I'm just watching as though he had a right to. But I forgot where I was. Yeah, but now, yeah, but Gandhi, yeah, but I got rid of most of the Gandhi stories. Yeah. Oh, Occupy. See, it's training people is where I was. All right? Is that there are certain principles you've got to know where if you're to move people. Right? You know that. I mean, you got a church, right? You didn't get it by saying, just come whenever you want to. It just doesn't work. It doesn't work that way. In fact, you've got someone being trained right now and your church. All right. Yeah, that's exactly right. Is that you have to be able to train people. There was no real, real coverage on the group. They went out of business because people stopped coming because they didn't know where you're going. Yeah. They don't see what your aims are and isn't really going to help anybody. And if it doesn't help anybody, nobody is going to give their time for it. Okay, well, let's let's move ahead to a newer movement that also has a lot of young people involved with Black Lives Matter. The point is, they're making the same mistake that... Occupy? Occupy may. See, in fact, they're copy-occupied too much because until you really train people and tell you, let them know that you love them, not that you're just getting back at somebody. All right? See, this is why love has to be the center of any kind of revival. And we're going to win the world with love. We're not going to win it with just hating and getting back and disliking and showing you... I'm going to show you what we can do. You've got to love somebody. Okay. I've got one more question for you, and then maybe we'll give people who are here an opportunity to raise a few questions too. If we can stop those that are going to run out right quick. No, I'm joking. I don't think you need to worry about that. Okay. The final question that I have for you is, it's true today that fewer and fewer people are claiming any connection to institutional religion, to religious community, or to even a particular religious faith tradition. And it might be summarized in that attitude that's expressed by some people. I'm spiritual, but I'm not religious. So my question to ask you to address is, in a situation like this, in this time, what might be our new covenant together, our new agreement in the face of that religious situation among the coalition of activists? And is it deep enough and broad enough to be sustained? You already spoke a little bit about that with Occupy and Black Lives Matter. Would you reflect on that a little bit more? Here it is. We all got a thick book of all the religions and all that kind of stuff. Now, the real thing is, if you notice how they keep getting smaller and smaller and smaller. And if you're dealing with Matthew, it comes down to just one word. Guess what that word is? That's it. I think I mentioned it a couple of times. But that's it. And this is why Jesus is so important. He wrapped it all up with the concept of love. And then he went further than that. So you don't keep playing with it and acting like it's just a lovey one another. It's lovey one another as I have loved you. There's no golden rule, because the golden rule isn't that golden. That's the real thing, is that you have to really love people and not a person or two. Or those who come to members of my church. You have to really show your love for people. We can change the world if we want to love folk instead of build a new church. Really, this is what it's all about. People need to know that somebody loves them. And when they know somebody loves them, that's when it makes the difference. That's the group they want to be with. We still have a few minutes. I don't know if we can find a microphone for... There it is. So if people have a question, and let's really make it a question, that they'd like to ask, come up here and make it as brief a question as you can muster. Dr. Vivian. I would like to ask you about the tremendous training that is now possible at a college level with almost no expense. Zero tuition through University of the People. I'm so impressed by this. And I'm wondering what you see in this program that allows people to get an accredited bachelor's degree or associate degree in either business administration or computer science. In fact, in a number of other fields. Now, shouldn't our churches and our libraries and others be trying to help young people get into this wonderful training that will help them learn ethics, help them learn reasoning, and many other things? Oh boy, it's a great idea. In fact, let me tell you what I did. We had so many... So you know what my answer is going to be as soon as I tell you this and get my PR out. We met each other 40 years ago, 45, because he was good at sound. He could do sound and work all the new equipment, et cetera. It wasn't easy 40 years ago. You had to know something right. We had a number of ministers that were not trained. Black and white. But more black because our denomination was black. So what I did was to create a program, Seminary Without Walls. And you could get it for practically nothing. There was no more in the program. Ford Foundation at that time gave me the money I need to develop the idea. My point being is it's too precious. Education is too precious to have a great country, uneducated people. Can't do it. In fact, people can't live in today's society without knowledge. It's just that you've got to have something you can do, something you can teach, something you can learn, something you can do. But it's got to be now more about knowledge, knowledge, knowledge. And we can't play with it. Because people are not going to be able to live. See, this is what's wrong with the ghettos. If you don't let people have a decent education, don't get mad when they steal. I mean, if somebody is robbing you and you have no way to eat, you're going to rob somebody else. Okay. Are you folks in line? Come on down. But if you love people, you'll get them an education. I'm wondering, I'm Amy, I'm from New Jersey, I teach second grade. And I'm wondering, do you think a movement can be successful without music, without a song that unites? Well, I tell you, not if you have to organize people. See, if you want to organize people on nothing, you've got to have something that here again makes them more human. And music humanizes everybody. And so, no, in fact, I think what we discovered, the better the music, the more people you came. And more people are willing to do. You have cheap music. It doesn't work. Have to use the microphone. I'm going to say, it seems like many movements today occupy and some of the others don't have music. That's it. And what I had said was what the research they're doing on the brain and how music impacts us, I'm wondering if that's why many of these movements aren't really moving. Yeah, see, and that's always a part of it. It's like when Guy Carawan came around, is that we didn't have any music. We were singing Kiwata songs, you know. And we really were. And here comes Guy Carawan. We were all black. He was white, but he was getting black sources. And he was singing those songs, boy, and patting that foot, southern style. And everybody fell in line. It makes a difference because you've got to make people know that you believe they're more human than it seems. You've got to let people know that you are human enough to understand them. And that you know they need it. Don't think that you can just stand in front of people and read a book. And then they'll say, I got an education. We've got another question here. Hello, my name is Linda White, and I'm from Peoria, Illinois. Is that right? Yes. My question for you is, I recently read that Dr. King said you were the best preacher that he ever heard. And I'm wondering what it was about. Well, Martin Luther King said it. Yeah, but I read it too. Obama got it from Martin. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And the fact is very true is that when he first was running for president, that's what he opened with in Alabama and Georgia and so forth. And I just hide my head, boy. So did you get to your question? Well, my question was, what was it about, or is it about your style that was so compelling? Well, at that time, I preached like preachers really preach, but with sense. What was preachers going to aspire to? But that's why that happened. Okay. But you see, I'm always chagrin when somebody comes up with that line. I see I've heard too many good preachers, Dr. I mean great preachers. And in fact, by the way, oh, I know baby, you can take care of baby. Oh. Okay. I don't mind going on. Okay. I appreciate that. Like this is going to be the last question. Yeah, this is it. Yes. Hi. First of all, thank you so much for your time. It's amazing to hear you. So thank you. Thank you. So I'm a young person has been doing a lot with the Black Lives Matter movement. And there are, I think some other people in the room who've been really activated around that. And you mentioned how we have to prepare ourselves and keep going and expect the road to be long. But a lot of us talk about burning out and feeling like how can we share leadership so that all of us don't feel so exhausted at once. I guess as a young person who's definitely committed to this for the long haul, what kind of advice would you give me and my comrades and a lot of folks in this room for us to keep energized, to keep going even when sometimes it feels really impossible. Read, get all the knowledge you can. Find out about all the leaders that have been around, not just Black or Yellow or where do they come from? Martin got his basic stuff from Gandhi, right? Gandhi isn't Black. But you see, but get the best leadership stuff you can get. But let people know that you really care for them. And I keep coming back to that because it's just the number one thing. Let people know that you really, really care for them. And tell them why, right? And let them know that that's the way to live. See, that's what the church is supposed to be doing. Amen. Thank you. I hope that's enough. That's perfect. Okay, good. I just love the way you're holding it. Baby, remind me of my life, man. So, folks, any day that begins with Mark Morrison, read and ends with C.T. Vivian is a day to remember. All right, my daughter.