 Greetings, everyone, and welcome to Megalife 21 Live. I am your host, James P. Madonna, and this is a very special fitness segment of Megalife 21 Live that is connected to our Facebook group of the International of Brotherhood of Polyvance. I am here with a very special guest all the way from Perth, Western Australia. This man, in my opinion, is one of the most, if not the most, devoted and dedicated human being in regards to the ancient art and sport of club and may swinging circular training because this man is currently on the Indian Club World Tour 2013. He is traveling around the world meeting with specific people. He is crowned currently the King of Clubs, the one and only Paul Tarris Walco-Winsky. Thank you, James. It's nice to be here. I'm very proud to have you here in the guard state of New Jersey. Paul has been to, so far, he has been to, besides his home city, of course, Hawaii, Southern California, the Los Angeles area. Then he went to Philadelphia to meet with Izzy Barish. Then he, oh, California, he met with Rick Brown. OK, from Rick Brown, he went to Philadelphia to meet with Izzy Barish. Then he went to Chicago to Fortezza Fitness, which is a martial arts sword playing. Basically, they're doing a martial arts style, but it's medieval sword play and that sort of thing. And the Indian Clubs is one of the things that they like to do there. And then he went to, was it Bowling Green? Bowling Green, yeah, to Roger LaPointe. Roger LaPointe of Atomic Athletic in Ohio. Bowling Green, Ohio. Are there lots of bowling alleys around Bowling Green? I think it's the College Town. Oh, it's the College Town. Oh, they're very pretty, very clean. Oh, OK, yeah. I've been through Ohio once. It's very farm-like, very flat. Apparently, flat is part of America. It's flat. Well, I hear like Nebraska and Iowa. There's a lot of flat parts of the United States where you see nothing but sky and cows and corn and cow manure and things of that nature. But now he's here in the Northeast and I'm very happy to have him here. It's kind of, it feels strange to, like in other words, we correspond via Facebook groups. And we have a circle of what you would call circular strength training gurus that we all, where we all are members of the same groups and we all correspond by way of texting. I try to get certain people to do shows on Skype. Rick Brown did it, but others are kind of shy about it. They don't have a webcam. But now to have you here in person and to meet you in person and think that you are really technically halfway around the world and you're here is amazing in itself. But oh, now you don't have to wear it. Oh, just for the camera. Hold on, hold on. I'll do it, just for the camera. The undisputed king of clubs, Paul Walco-Winsky. OK, for the camera. All right, for a photo op. No, put it on and just pause for a few seconds for people that wish to take a print screen and make a photo out of this. OK. See how considerate we are? All right. All right, I'll just hold it. OK. The king of clubs. No, seriously, this man has taken upon himself at his own expense to travel the world for the sake of circular training in this ancient sport. And I know there's a lot of people out there that claim to be gurus and experts. And some of them try to reinvent the wheel. And you don't do that. You research the subject. You have researched the subject very well. Now, how were you first introduced to circular strength, to circular training? Well, I started with, to be perfectly honest, it wasn't with clubs, it was kettlebells first. But what I realized was that I really liked the swinging aspect of kettlebells, particularly the yeah, and cleans and clean and press and so on. And then on the internet, I found clubbells. But some wasn't really that keen on them. And then about the same sort of time, I discovered the Cobbett and Jenkins book on Indian clubs on the internet. Downloaded it, found some patterns for clubs in the book. And then decided that that's what I wanted to check out. So I found a woodturner in Perth who could do that for me. Oh, that's great. Yeah. And he made me up the old four clubs that the Cobbett and Jenkins books has. And that really started my journey with clubs. It was just, I mean, it was another, it was the swing element as from the kettlebells. It's a forward swing here, it's a side plane swing. And it suddenly, it just caught me completely. I mean, I was just fascinated by it. So as I started to learn to swing the clubs, I also started to look for more and more information on the internet, which is a huge part of the learning curve that I went on and found another instrumental book was Indian Clubs and How to Swing Them by Ferdinand Lamar. And that was written about 1889 from memory. And that's a book that's been instrumental to getting my technique going. I'll have to say here that one of the biggest problems with those old books is the language that they're written in because it's sometimes quite difficult to understand. You have to reread, reread. Victorian type. Well, it's a Victorian. And also they did have different words that they used that they describe things in slightly different ways. Plus, the books contain drawings. And I mean, nowadays we have a video that we can, you know, you can copy them. Drawings with arrows. Drawing with arrows going around them. So you have to decipher it. I mean, it's not a five minute job sometimes. So you, you'll stand there, you'll swing the club and you think, well, no, that's not what you mean. So you do it again and you do it again until you actually suss out what the colors make. You have to follow the arrows with your eyes in the illustration and just by trial and error. So trial and error. And then basically, I mean, I have to say this from just for the record that the Indian club swinging is, I would encourage anybody who tries to do it is to use a reflection via a, you know, a house window on the outside if you're in the garden or a mirror inside. And it hasn't got the vanity thing attached to it like, say, for instance, with, you know, in gyms, there's sometimes mirrors and people stare at themselves because what you're doing with a mirror is you're actually watching the flight path of the club. So, you know, are you taking your arm up to the right angle above your head? Are you turning the club properly? And then if you're working with a double club worker, you're doing them the same way. One of the first things that I started doing and I didn't realize until I actually started checking what I was doing in the mirror was to, my left arm was weaker, I'm right-handed. So I had to really work on my left arm and my left arm strength to get my arms balanced. The shapes that I was scribing were the same. So, I mean, I think that that's something that was, you know, really valuable to me in progressing my skills, basically. Yeah. Well, the mirror is definitely invaluable. Reflection is invaluable in terms of learning proper form, which I think is the most important aspect of any exercise. So, you know, proper form above everything else because proper form also equates to safety, which is very important. You know, physical fitness, the fact that you're yourself, you don't mind giving your age, right? No, 63. You're 63. I'm 55. Now, take himself down. What he accomplished and what he does right now at 63, the average young person could never keep up with him. I know for a fact, believe me. And this is proof that there is no excuse for not exercising. There is no excuse for people to say, well, you know, I'm a little too old for that. That's for young people. Exercise, especially circular exercise, is one of the primary components to a real fountain of youth. And you have, with circular training, you have the joint mobility, as well as endurance and stamina and also muscular strength and aerobic component. Sure. So there's no excuse. I mean, I've seen photographs of senior citizen bodybuilders that were over 70 years of age and they look phenomenal. I've, you know, and then there's your case. There's the things that Jack Lane did before he died. I'm surprising. Actually, he had a joke when he was alive. He says, I can't die, it'll ruin my image. Yeah. But eventually he did. He died of an infection. I don't know how he got this infection with all the supplements he took, but what do you call respiratory infection? But the thing is that with the right supplementation, taking high amounts, optimal amounts of antioxidants and doing the right safe exercise, you will have the fountain of youth. You can check out Paul's videos. He's on the web. What is the name of your YouTube channel again? It's Tarras Volkovinsky, but it's Indian Clubs and how to use them basically. I mean, you'll find that. Or if you go to my website, which is indianclubs.com.au, you'll find links there to my YouTube channel where all the videos are. Okay, you go there. Now, after New York City, after this wonderful day we're spending, you are going to London, England for personal reasons, old school reunion, and then you are going to Sheffield, England to meet with the one and only Mike Simpson. Yes. Who also makes clubs and is a expert swinger as well. Now his clubs, it seems like everybody who makes clubs that are worth using tends to use local wood. Well, yeah, because I mean, basically imported woods or how should we say, exotic woods are very expensive to get rolled off. And I've been in my club making, I've been using what I term as recycled woods because there's a lot of houses in West Australia that are being, say renovated or pulled down and there are sort of two by four sections of wood which can be used as glue-ups to, then you can create sections to make clubs from and turn them away. Is that usually pine that they use? No, no, no. It's jara. Our local wood in West Australia is jara, which is a hardwood. Oh, jara's... Which is the eucalyptus. That's the eucalyptus marginata. That's the eucalyptus... That's correct. It's probably a variety of eucalyptus. Yeah, it's a very special one. It was basically, jara was at the turn of the last century, sort of 18 to 1900s, was used and shipped off to England and a lot of it's still lying as sleepers under the underground in London. Because it's so, it doesn't rot and it doesn't basically come off from, you know, basically problems like other woods do, so. Is it very sappy? Does it need to be kiln dried? Well, it does need to be kiln dried, but it also has sap in the sense it has gum because it's a gum tree. It has gum tree veins running through the wood. Okay. And if you, and you know, when you sometimes put a piece of wood onto the lathe and start turning it, it'll only become apparent that there's, after you've started turning it, there's a gum line running through it. So you have to stop basically, you scrape all the gum out, fill it with epoxy and I mix epoxy with sanding powder from the jara to fill it with. And then once that's dry, you can continue turning the clubs. And it just gives you a unique feel because I made every club slightly different from the other. So there, so. And I mean, Mike uses beach in England as a wood. Here, we use maple in the States, which seems to be a very popular wood for clubs. Yeah, maple because it's plentiful. Like people, somebody else I know, but uses, because it's an expensive uses, older and popular. Okay, yes, popular. My friend, Christian Dars of revolutionclubs.net, who made my clubs uses, sometimes uses maple, but most of the time he uses hickory and white oak. Okay. Which are very hard dense woods, especially hickory. And with Christian Dars of Revolution Clubs, he originally made wooden swords for medieval sword fighting practices. Sure. And I think he makes swords, some kind of ceremonial sword for the US Marine Corps. I'm not sure, but mostly Purpleheart Armory is the company where he sells wooden swords for these people that like to. Yeah, for contest of sword fighting. Right, right. I guess, you know, places where they have jousting and things of that nature. Well, it's a lot for a desert in Chicago. I mean, they do that sort of thing. I mean, they have swords that are a dummy swords, but basically they're used in a real action fight. Like kendo stick type. Well, it's a sort of, yeah, but I mean, it's medieval Italian medieval style fighting. Exactly. That's what this sport is, medieval fighting. And you practice with simulated wooden weapons. Then you have the martial arts fighting sticks. I think they call them Escrima. Escrima, yeah. Which is popular amongst certain martial arts. But I want to tell you a little bit of a story now. I am for this trip, I wanted to bring a pair of clubs with me and I decided that the only way that I was gonna get them into my luggage and not weigh too much was to use to make them in pine. Now, pines are softwood. And obviously if you knock the clubs together, it dings really easily. Oh, that's not good. No, no, no, but, but in saying that, if you have a look at the sporting clubs, for instance, a two pound club, it will be about 18 inches in length. And it swings a fairly small arc as a circle. Now, the ones that I've made are cut down versions of the Cobbett and Jenkins A club, which was originally designed as a 26 inch and I made them 24 inch so they fit into my suitcase. And they came out at two pounds, basically perfect two pounders each. But they're 24 inches long. Now, there's everybody who's seen them so far because I've had everybody who photographed with these clubs. I'm gonna, you're gonna have to do two. Are these the clubs with the red striped hands? Yeah, that's the ones. We'll call them the Paul. Traveling club. Volkanowski World, World Indian Club World Tour Club. We'll call them World Tour Clubs 2013. Well, no, but the interesting thing about it to finish the story is that they, they're a two pound club, but they're an extended club, I feel like. So they're six inches nor longer than, say, a folding two pounder that would have been made in Maple. So consequently, the swinging property of that club is because the way it's that much further away from your wrist and it feels like a heavier club because of torque. Because of torque, yeah. It's a very nice club to everybody's commented about it and it suddenly made me realize that, you know, the concept of working out a longer lighter club as opposed to like, you know, 18 inch, 20 inch club. Here's, you know, look at the 24 inch club but make it lighter at about a two pound weight is a very good weight for most people to swing. I always preferred the longer club meals than compared to the short fat stubby ones that I call Pitbull Barrel Meals. The ones I have, the eight plant meals made by Revolution Clubs, they are the exact replicas that are owned by Richard Armie McGuire and they are from, his are from Iran. These are exact replicas just like your, you have the replica of Sim D. Kehoe Clubs, replica of the original antique. So made from Jarrah. Yeah, and actually I must have, I've got a chip in at this point. I, in Hawaii and also in Philadelphia, I had the chance to actually swing 120 year old Kehoe's which was, I mean, it was a true delight to me because it's a unrepeatable situation. You know, I mean, I don't know, it's very unlikely that I'll ever own a set of those clubs. Those are owned by Izzy Beck. Izzy and Paul Imada in Hawaii. So I had an opportunity to swing in both places, those clubs and they are very different. So I mean, their shape is very bulbous. They're quite fat at the end, eight pounds, eight to 10 pounds a piece. But it was a joy to do. I mean, it was really was, you know, just fantastic to feel an old club in your hands. You know, one of the original ones that was developed for the States, you know, in the 1860s. It's amazing. You swing in history. Yeah, that's it. Who knows how many generations swing, swung, swung those clubs? Well, that's right. And how many will do it? Because I mean, the clubs are actually slightly lighter than their original weights because the woods dried out. So the moisture content's gone. But doesn't the weather slightly change the weight of a wooden club? Yes, it does. Yeah. And I mean, the woods, I mean, apparently from my wood turner and Perth, he said that, you know, if woods got about 20% moisture in it, it's good to turn. But I mean, that moisture is over the period of time going to dry out and it's going to become lighter because there's a water white content in it. Well, Christian D'Arce told me pine has to be really kill and dry thoroughly because it's a sappy wood. Yeah. I'm not sure if Poplar is in the pine family, but well, these woods are generally kicked because of price. They're reasonable. You know, it's all from nature. As long as you're using real wood, it's all good. The wood is what makes it good. But, you know, you just have to make sure it's kill and dry. Now, the first time you're a wood turner, I assume it was your wood turner that made the Cimdi Keeho, when your first pair cracked on the lathe, was that because it was not thoroughly dry? No, no, no, that's for another reason because Jarrah, because it's such a dense wood, it has, as the tree grows and it gets thicker and thicker over the years, the outside layers pressurize the inner core of the wood. And as you turn it on a lathe and you remove the inner core to expose the inside, that the release of the pressure actually splits the club open or the wood open. So, I mean, from now on, when I go back, I'm gonna be looking at doing glue ups as opposed to making new clubs out of a solid piece because then I'm gonna avoid that problem of the, because the wood would have rested and not be subject to splitting anymore because it's not on one whole piece. So, I mean, that's unlikely that I'm gonna be doing that again. So, I mean, maybe I'll make a sort of a one, two pound, up to about four pound out of single pieces of wood. But after that, they're gonna be glued up to the heavier stuff. So, you, well, of course, you would have to use a very high quality epoxy, you know. It sure, sure. In the United States, there's something called Gorilla Glue, which is supposed to- Well, that's what I use. Gorilla is another wood-built item of certain. Hard as nails is another good company. Sure. Yeah, so, this is, aside from the jet lag, this turned out to be a very interesting trip view, to say the least. Sure, I'll just talk just briefly about the actual ball on the end of the club handle for a second, because I've made some quite interesting findings on the trip. The balls, basically the traditional clubs like the keyholes have a ball, literally a circular sphere at the end of the handle. And a lot of people have been making them like that. Now, Mike Simpson, for example, in England makes a slightly flattened ball. So, I mean, it's not a circular one anymore. It's actually a sort of egg shape on its side. So, you're pink-y. So, yeah. I think you can still sit around it, but it's slightly more egg shaped. So, it feels, I mean, you've got to think of the club handle as the ball, and then your palm as the socket. I mean, it's like a ball and socket type relationship. Okay, and the oval egg shape fits into there now. But going on from there, in two different places, I've found the clubs which have had the egg shape, rather than being flattened and mounted on top of the club, it's on its end and mounted. Now, that end piece, if it's mounted, the egg shape fits into your palm there really, really well. So, consequently, it enables swings of a different nature and different handling of the club. It's more ergonomic. Very ergonomic, and it's something that I'll be experimenting with when I get back to Australia, is to check out the potential. Never occurred to me to turn the shape on its end. So, you've got the egg shape lined that way as opposed to that crisscross on your hand that way. And then, in Bowling Green, there was another major discovery is that the ball on the end of the club was literally a doorknob size. So, consequently, the grip was a claw grip on the end of the club. And providing a fantastic forearm workout. Right, so that club can be like a forearm blaster, sort of a club for people that want to emphasize grip strength, you know, which is very important in life. I have a feeling, after your trip to the United Kingdom, that you're going to have a nice decent bunch of information, ideas to work on. One of the purposes of the trip was to basically get out there and just meet people and talk to people, see people's collections. And when I say collection, I mean, some people have got fantastic collections. Others have just got, literally, their personal clubs that they use, maybe two or three sets. And it's all great. I mean, it's just great to get around with the people and how they use their clubs and what they do with them. That's been a big motivator in this journey. But with you, you don't just talk to talk. Of course, you walk to walk. You use the clubs as well as make them, as well as, in other words, you collect them, but not as so much as other people who just are in it for the collecting. Sure, like there are people who collect action figures who I know somebody that has a whole entire bedroom loaded with action figure investments, they keep them in the box and all that. But this man uses them. He gets into the kinesiology of club swinging in terms of form. Now, Mr. Ken Thason mentioned to me today about that what if you're doing, let's say, the inside mill with heart shape, some people have a tendency not to bend their elbows when they make that swing. Yeah, now you have to really bend your elbow. Inward and outward, you have to really bend your elbow. And I mean, basically with the clubs, as in with mace swinging, the arms should come really as deep as possible behind your back and it shouldn't stop up here. Basically, you want to disengage the biceps and drop the arm right behind your head. So as the columns are coming around, bring them through to the front. Because joint mobility is one of the primary hallmarks of circular training. Sure. And joints, all joints should be in synergy. So after the UK with Mike Simpson, which should be a great experience, you go to India. Yes. Now, are you going to be in the Punjabi area? OK, I'm not sure where that is exactly, but I'm certainly going to a place called Varanasi, which is on the Ganges, where that's a sort of mystical place where, I mean, they do a lot of cremations on the side of the Ganges and then they spread the ashes into the Ganges. In Varanasi also, there are lots of Akharas where the wrestlers train for wrestling. And I'm being told that basically a lot of the Akharas there still use the mace and the jewellery clubs, which is what I'm particularly interested in seeing. I do a lot of mace work myself. That's been a sort of five-year journey for me with very little sort of learning. I had to be find out for myself basically how to do it. And I just want to see more people. I've already met Rick Brown and we shared a few ideas regarding mace swinging. What is new loadable mace? Yes. With the extra-large bulbous... It will monk you with the water mace, we'll call it. Water mace. So you can fill the bowl up half with water and then basically if the mace is up in front of you, everything shakes because the water's sloshing. Well, could you fill it halfway with rum or vicar? Yeah, probably, yeah, and a straw. If you want to do a heavy light system, which training, you just drink some of your booze. But now maybe, who knows, maybe on the trip to India, you might find a nice, beautiful body pair of Indian jewellies to bring home. Maybe, yeah. I mean, unfortunately, wood into Australia is a major problem. So, but I mean, who knows? I mean, I can always get customs to clear them and fumigate them in Australia. But there again, sometimes photographs might be enough because I mean, if I can get dimensions and stuff from them, I mean, I've got a lot of information, photographic information about them. When I was in Bowling Green at the Roger La Pointe's place, he had a single jewellery club, about four foot six inches wide, long rather, about 10 pounds. And that was really interesting to swing because you could do a single arm swing on that. It was a wooden club turned on a lathe. Very, very nice. As a stasi weight, I thought that was ideal. But the dynamic between swinging a meal and then swinging a jewellery club is very, very different because of the length, the circle that you scribe with it is much slower because it's a much bigger circle, basically. So, it takes a lot longer for the club to travel from standing upright in the front around the back and come back to the front again because it's just physically longer. So, the shorter a club, the smaller the circle, the longer the club, the bigger the circle. So, it takes you, you've got a dwell time. As you drop it over your shoulder, turn your arm, bring your elbow forward, bring it up on the other side, it just seems to take forever for the club to come round. I find the longer clubs to be much easier on my shoulder joints than the short staki ones. I mean, because with the heavy, shorter clubs, it tends to whip back too quickly. And that's one of the reasons I didn't want clubbells up to be honest. I'm not knocking clubbells, I'm not knocking it, but I find that the circle, because of the weight, the clubbell drops really fast behind you and then back around to the other side and it doesn't really offer the resistance and the swing that a longer meal or a jewelry would offer you. I had another issue with the clubbell. My hand just kept on sliding to the end. No matter how hard I squeezed the handle. Sure. I mean, because of sweat, up against steel, it just kept sliding to the end. Whereas with wood, I just naturally have an excellent grip on any wood. I have no problems with it. In India, please, don't drink the local water. No, no, no, I've got lots of protection from that sort of stuff here. Yeah, I mean, I got the runs once, I got the runs once, my first time in another country and I learned how not to get it. And what I did was I took the very high potency probiotics, some people call it yogurt bacteria, probiotics and I also took garlic extract and because I like to eat authentic local food, I don't like to go to a tourist trap and eat Americanized food. I like to eat with the people, but unfortunately, it depends where you are. People of different cultures have different ways. I mean, when I was in Acapulco, Mexico, there was a restaurant, outdoor restaurant and all the locals were allowing the floggists to land on their food. To me, that's absolutely disgusting. I couldn't deal with that, no, I can't deal with that, but that's just an example. I mean, we could go on, that's another talk show, but so and after India, you return back to Perth. Yes, yes. Okay, and then basically I'll be digesting all the information that I've picked up regarding club design and what my thoughts are. And I mean, I have swung a lot of clubs now. Basically, I've noted down things I've liked and disliked about various clubs. I think one other thing, which is quite important and my traveling clubs have got on them is Kehoe, in his early designs, made a slightly wider grip on the handle so that it sits just in the palm of your hand. So as you hold the club with the hammer grip, that thickens out just inside the palm here. And I've done that on my traveling clubs, but I've got the space in, it's not quite right, it needs to be just readjusted. So the next pair on, because these are very much as prototype, the next pair I'll make or I'll just tighten that design up a little bit. And I think that that's, it's fantastic because with club work, you've got two different things. You've got the open arm circles, for instance, where the arms straighten out completely as they come round and then they bend for a wrist circle at the back of the head. And the, but then you've also got like a wrist roll circle, so the club is here and then you can roll it forward. And for a wrist circle, you need to, what I call choke the club, so you need to actually shorten it so that you're holding the handle and basically the ball is at the back of your wrist here, the club is rolling sort of from maybe a quarter of the way up the handle as it rolls forward. Okay. So, I mean, you're not doing it without, you can do it right at the end, but sometimes it's quite nice to actually shorten the club and do it a quicker circle. Yeah. So you've got to, you know, you can vary the size of the circle and the speed of the circle. And having this sort of this thickening on the club handle actually helps that because you know that you're gripping both the clubs in the same place when you're doing that. So you can move your hands up and down of the handle of the club. Now the Cindy Kehoe clubs are they, they by appearance, they seem like they're mid heavy as opposed to the the rolling pin British style, which has the weight more towards the end. Yeah. The Kehoe's are like middle brown, mid heavy. Mid heavy, yeah. And I mean, I think this is purely supposition, but I mean, the Kehoe's are more shaped to me like a Corella is, which is a sort of in between of a long club and a mace. And basically it's sort of like it's got a fairly fat body on it. And the weight is not all to the end, like a with a mace is end heavy. The Corella is sort of like it's more spread out. The Kehoe's are a bit like a Corella thinking about it in shape wise. Right. And of course, the Somtova is like an Indian barbell. It's like a log of wood with handles carved into them. Then there's a, there's a large in heavy Indian jewelry called the Mugdhal. No, Mugdhal, from what I can look at, Mugdhal is a lighter version of a jewelry. It's a shorter club. Yeah. So it's more of a length of a meal, like a short meal length. And it's used for repetitive back circles basically. There was an Indian man who has a YouTube video where he's swinging this one very large club with two hands and it looks like a pepper mill in a restaurant. Sure. And I'm trying to think, it's in the end, their look was very interesting. It's bulbous. It comes more narrow towards the end. It was kind of bulbous in the middle and it had a long enough handle to accommodate two hands. And it was a big pepper mill. Actually me and Ken Thieson joke around about it. That it looks just like a big pepper mill. You know, fancy restaurants have very, the longer the pepper mill, the fancier the restaurant. That's it. That's it. You like some fresh ground pepper and you know, the hands all the way up here. You have the giant pepper mill like that? No, I don't. No, but I'm gonna, you just talked about that very early photograph that I found on the internet. Is that the one that you're referring to? Well, this was an actual, it's a very poor video. Oh, it's a video. Okay. If I find it, I'll send it to you. Sure. But it's a very poor, poorly made video. Now, Christian Jolly in the UK is, he comes from a family of wrestlers I'm led to believe. I don't know for sure. But he, he's swung some clubs for Mark Simpson and he does a lift with like a 20 kilo club where he grabs the club kind of in that position with his hands upside down and then basically pulls the club onto this side. But it goes around the back of his head and pulls it up. Yeah. Now that's a move I've tried to replicate with a meal and it's only a single-handed meal. So I haven't got really the right club to do it with but I'm sure it's a doable move. And I think in that case, the heavier the club, the better because it's basically a method of lifting something very heavy up on by, by, by swinging it. Now they've just out of interest here, the, there are some very long juries as you know. And I think that's the technique that Christian would have used here would have been a way of, of actually picking up a jury and getting up onto your shoulder with this sort of double lift. Yes. I mean, you've literally, forget which way the hands go, but one is behind the other, the club's on the floor and the club is at an angle on the floor. So it's not self-standing. It's already leaning into the lift. And then you basically swing it up and bring it onto the shoulder. And then you obviously, if you cross your hands the other way, you can do it to the other side. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Cause it's all the illustration of Indian club swing that I have very old. I think it's early 1900s. It shows two-handed club exercising with a large club. So, you know, there's just so many, there's different variation. It's not just the pair of bowling pin clubs that is part of Indian clubs. No, I think it really falls into sort of three, well, there's three areas really. There's light Indian club work, which is fantastic to sort of just, you know, upper body, just getting it going and just moving. Then you can graduate to sort of like clubs which weigh about four to eight pounds, the 10 pounds, which you can do, obviously the heavier the club, the more limited you are with the sort of the fancier swings you can do. Then you go to the meals, which are the Persian clubs. The movement there, I'd call a closed arm movement where the arms never really straighten out. So they don't go to any open arm movements as with a lighter club. And they keep them on the shoulders. And they keep them on the shoulders, or just in front upright without touching the body. Right. Then the Indian version of that is with a jewellery club which is much longer and sort of four foot, four and a half foot, which then they do rest them on the shoulders and at the end of the scale, you've got the mace, which is a two-handed, two-handed or single-handed, depending on the weight of the mace. But I mean, it's the optimum in swinging something heavy that's very awkward, very unbalanced. But in fact, it gives you an all-round exercise and it's a fantastic body workout. So you would say that the mace has the greatest amount of torque out of all of them? Oh, I'd say so, yeah, yeah. I mean, the heavy clubs have been talking in a slightly different way. I mean, from my experiences and learning, the using meals, for example, is a fantastic way to prepare your arms and shoulders and loosen everything up to work with the mace. Right. Because they are kind of intertwined, the movements are similar. They're not the same, but they're similar. Okay. And one of the basic differences is that with the mace, you drive more from the hips, whereas with zirconae style swinging, you're stepping and transferring your body weight from one foot to the other as the swings happen at the back. You know, in zircones, there are these people who use these little baby Persian meals to juggle with. They throw it very high up in the air and they do acrobatics on the floor and catch them after they're flipping. And it's some amazing juggling work. I don't know if you've seen it. I've seen a few videos with it, yes. I mean, they're a little, they're attractive. They're decorated, they're painted, whatever. You know, I mean, the Indian ones can be very ostentatious and boring looking, but they're, you know, they're little juggling clubs. It's just interesting. They have little kids doing it too. They're training them from a very young age. The most common design you see on these clubs is the paisley. Now, zirconae Australia, an Iranian gentleman said that paisley represents humility. It's actually a leaf on a tree. And as a tree, you know, has its full, the branches lower themselves because of weight. And that's where they got the symbol from. It's an actual book for those that are wondering where paisley came from. You know, no, it is not a spermatozoa or a paramecium or anything like that, it's supposed to be a leaf. I thought it would work like this. But anyway, so that's basically it. Thank you. Thank you very much. Volkovinsky. Volkovinsky. Volkovinsky. That's it. What about that famous Russian kettlebell master? His name is Ivan Jaganov. Right, okay. I was told by a gentleman in Southern California about that. Okay. Yeah, he's, oh, before I say goodbye, the undisputed king of clubs, Paul Taras Volkovinsky. Thank you, James. The king. Nice to meet you again. All right.