 Well, welcome everyone to Crisis Conversations live from the Better Life Lab It's a yet another Friday, and we're all still social distancing although some Some states and some businesses are beginning to open up again We are still right in the middle of the pandemic Today, we're going to be talking about paid family leave the United States as many of you know is really alone in In its peer economies are really alone in the world as really the only advanced economy the only country that doesn't offer paid Maternity leave after the birth of a child. We don't offer a paid parental leave We don't offer a paid family leave. We leave it to the discretion of employers. So it's all voluntary and that has huge problems to begin with about You know 17 18 percent of the civilian workforce has access to paid family leave in the best of times And in a pandemic when you've got families juggling trying to figure out how to work how to Take care of their children with schools and childcare is closed how to homeschool their children The pressures on families are really intense. So Congress did pass an emergency paid family leave law Which is historic and important and yet Sort of at the last minute there were a number of exemptions that were written into the bill Which leave a lot of people out and so that's what we're going to be talking about today that while this is a really important first step It's it also is creating a gulf between have and have nots And what we need to learn and what we can do to fix this moving forward So I'd like to open today with Rebecca Gale. Rebecca is a journalist based here in DC And you've just written a story that was published in the New York Times Where this is the very issue that you explored like how is this emergency paid family leave? Playing out who is eligible who's using it who isn't who needs it? What are you? What are you finding in your reporting? Well, Bridget, thank you so much for having me on and like you said, this was historic This is the first time the United States has really done something like this to sort of give this widespread widespread federally mandated paid leave and it hasn't really gotten the attention of everybody because most people don't even know if they're eligible And the problem is a lot of people actually are not eligible They were these two huge carve-outs the legislation one for companies that have over 500 people Which is like a good chunk of the workforce and one for companies who have under 50 people who can claim a hardship exemption This hardship exemption can be really anything. There's not much needed to really claim it You can just say if allowing employees to take any sort of extended paid leave would be harmful to your business then You don't you don't have to offer it But what's so interesting is so for years people have wanted a sort of national paid leave plan Have always worked with small businesses who want to give these two employees, but can't afford to do it on their own So finally we have a federally paid for leave because this leave is paid for by the government It's done so through a tax credit. So there's a little bit of a hurdle there but there is legislation that allows it to be fronted for people who are for organizations that need it ahead of time and The problem we're seeing is that people don't know they're eligible people who need it Aren't eligible and people who are eligible are reluctant to take it because they're afraid They'll get laid off down the line or what happens when those 12 weeks are up and camps aren't open and schools aren't back So the level of uncertainty both with regard to the workforce and with regard to the future It's really preventing people the old the half of America who is half of America's working force that's eligible for it It's really preventing them from taking it. Mm-hmm. Well, thank you so much for that, Rebecca, you know, I want to move I spoke earlier this week with Marissa Corbell Corbell. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly So we have a tape from our conversation. So Angela if you could get that queued up Marissa is a lawyer in Portland, Oregon works full-time her partner her husband works full-time as well for University they have a five-year-old daughter and she said that she was just under so much stress trying to cram 40 hours of work into You know into a workday and try to do all of the childcare when the childcare closed and try to homeschool and do kindergarten And she was under a lot of stress and then she found out about this paid emergency paid family leave And she really described it as something that in that really helped keep her family afloat So can can we pay play her clip Angela? You write that this was like a You know it offered you a lifeboat and you you chose to climb aboard What do you think about the fact that it's only certain people that have access to the lifeboat? Yeah, I think it absolutely contributed to my hesitancy and my guilt about taking the time and What I had to realize for myself is that me not taking this leave isn't going to fix that for anybody else so it's not like by Taking this leave that means that you know some working single mother doesn't get to take it It it's really they're sort of independent problems and it's frustrating and terrible that we have a system that would Sort of create a lifeboat that really only helps, you know people who are somewhat privileged I work for an organization that I have you know, it happens to qualify and you know I have a partner so that helps you like there's so many things about my life that that made it easier for me and Made me feel like well I'm not the person that's worse off and so it felt weird to be taking leave Even though I knew that I was not the person that needed it the most And So So here's Marissa. And so she's really struggling with the fact that she is eligible. She does need it But really struggling with with the knowledge that not everybody is going to get it And so at this point I want to I want to turn over to Anni Patrick. So Anni is joining us She's a member of United for Respect. She also works at Aldi's Which is a large corporation and one of those with more than 500 employees Who were exempted from this paid family leave? So Anni you've got a number of children You are an essential worker. You have to go to work. You know talk about how you've been Sort of navigating all of these additional pressures. And is this is this something that you really could have used? Um Yes, thank you. Uh, I really could have I honestly didn't know anything about it Um until it was just recently brought to my attention However, you know as as you mentioned I do have many children. I have four Three of which are toddlers three four and five and I have a 12 year old So if I would have been offered this extended leave It would have helped out a lot when I was homeschooling my children Because you know, we went on a stay-at-home order in March In the state of Illinois and my children arrived at school and it was very difficult For me to try to juggle being a teacher On top of a mother on top of an essential worker And you know, it is it is very difficult. I mean being being a parent is difficult in itself But then you know, these these educators that are not able to step in and help us out one on one like like they would love to You know, it just it adds that stress on our Already stressful lives And if if I would have had a chance to take a paid leave to really truly focus on my children and their education It it really would have bettered the lives of not my just myself, but my kids too You know, so so ani when we were Talking the other day, you know, you talk about you've got four children and we talked earlier about how the united states doesn't have It's really the only country along with like a handful of little teeny tiny island nations in the pacific That does not guarantee every mother paid maternity leave in the united states Now you've had four children How did you handle that? Did you have any paid leave at all or what was that like? before the pandemic Just in in terms of having starting and starting a family Um, well at the time that I got pregnant with my three youngest children. I was working at kmart very well-known corporation um I had my oldest daughter in january of 2015 Had my son in december of 2015. Wow. Am I true? That's all in this team here You know, so, you know, I was off for a number of weeks That, you know, I was only part time because you know, I had a child who was in school and things of that nature So I only worked nights Um, and me being part time. I was not allowed Any kind of paid leave when I was off for my company Um, so, you know, the first time I was off. I was able to take up some vacation time and You know, things like that. So I wasn't completely broke. Um You can't go collect unemployment Because you had a baby, you know, they that that's not even thought about So, you know, it was okay the first time now turn around and had my son in december the same year I was off for six more months, you know, so or six more weeks. I'm sorry so, you know, all of that Income lost really made it difficult to pay my bills And the first time all this was going on I I was going into a place to where You know, they were they were talking about foreclosing on my home Well, I'm here. I'm having babies and they're saying hey, you know, you're you're gonna be homeless, you know So I was able To get some assistance with that. But then I had my youngest daughter in 2017 May of 2017 and I was still trying to get on my feet from heaven the other two without the income I I desperately needed and I went through a second process of possible foreclosure on my home so It's very difficult I feel like, you know, here we are trying to populate the world Trying to populate the united states But the united states isn't helping us To be able to make ends meet while we are doing so while we are healing from having children um, and I It really would have been helpful because I would have I would have not had that stress of possibly losing my home With three very young children at the time. Yeah, well, that's such a frightening story. Um, awney Thank you so much for sharing that what I'd love to do now is You know again continuing on with the story. So kelly, you know, you're uh, you know You're sort of on the other end of the spectrum and yet you've experienced a little bit of what what awney has You were saying that, you know, you and your wife when you you had Brought a new child into your home You had paid maternity leave because you live in the state of new jersey And jersey is one of a handful of states that do have their own paid leave and your wife because she works in pennsylvania Had no paid leave and you know, so that you were already struggling with that and then and then talk about how you've What it's been like then with the emergency paid leave and what that's meant for your family Certainly, uh, thank you for the opportunity to do so So as you said in january, my wife and I welcomed our sixth child And she was able to take unpaid family leave for the first few more than a few is close to five weeks and We had planned and had some money saved to spend that time without her income stream and Then it was my turn to We were able to piggyback our leave times and I took mine after after she did And because mine was paid leave we were able to sort of build up our Um reserve again, uh, you know by no means A meaningful savings, but we were able to resume our normal lifestyle and then Literally the friday. I was supposed was that was the last day of my leave was the day everything shut down and so We were stuck with no real answer for how are we going to make it through um because our finances had just leveled off and with six children you you do need a bit of a An assurance that you're going to be able to make payments on your housing expenses and electricity expenses. So We scrambled and I was desperate and I I called up my employer and I said Hey, uh, I there's no way I can work. I have six kids. You know, I can't work from home. That's an impossibility With an infant and with two toddlers. There's no way And I said listen. I need you to lay me off and They said let's get back to you and thankfully they did and they said hey, you can get this leave. You're eligible for it You know It had been a couple of weeks that passed in between where we were all figuring things out But they called called back and said there is this leave and To tell you that it goes from dangling at the edge of a cliff to Just relief that your family will have electricity and food on the table It's it's an experience no one should ever have to go through and to to believe that Only a handful of states either six or maybe seven plus washington dc have paid family leave Even beyond the coronavirus pandemic. That's astonishing that we don't Place families at the forefront of what matters and that stability that We all need not just for our health but for our well-being and our mental health You know, it was a true crisis for us when we looked around and said, oh my god, there's no paycheck coming our way Wow, so the emergency family leave act Really did enable us to survive not just You know carry on or make it through but you know, it really was a survival issue at that point You know, what do you do when you can't pay your rent for an indefinite amount of time? And you're a family of eight including a brand new baby. Wow Wow, well, kelly, thank you so much for sharing that story What I'd love to do now is go go to tanya. So tanya goldman She's with the center for law and social policy senior attorney and policy Analyst and make sure that I get your title right tanya. Feel free to correct me, but you've been watching You know, not only paid family and medical leave sort of over You know In pre-pandemic times, but really looking at what's happening now With this emergency emergency law, so, you know, what are you seeing out there in terms of You know, are you seeing these kinds of have and have not experiences? I you know are How are how are firms implementing this? It's a what what are you looking at out there? Thanks for doing so much. Um, so I'll echo a little bit of what rebecca said But we're really seeing you know three kind of overarching problems of making sure people can access this critical Right right now The first is that millions of people are simply not eligible for the paid family leave that congress passed And this includes a lot of essential workers So just like oni There are more than two million workers who are employed just in large grocery store chains that would not that are not covered by the family's first law And then therefore all of them who are parents have no rights to the sort of child care leave Within the act. Wow. And then the u.s. Department of Labor took this law And narrowed it even further and really kind of negated a lot of what congress had been trying to do They've really narrowed who is eligible for the leave In addition to in many ways giving small businesses almost a free path to decide If they're covered by the law or not And then the second major problem as rebecca also noted is just tons of people do not know they even have A right to take paid leave or paid sick days A survey that the was done for the new york times found that nearly half of people had heard very little or had heard nothing at all about their rights Another poll that was done only one in five voters said they had taken or planning to take leave. And this was just Just seven percent were reporting that they planned to take leave for child care reasons Which is They are entitled many people are entitled up to 12 weeks of paid leave for child care reasons. Yeah And you know, I can hypothesize about some of these reasons, you know A quarter of them said they didn't think they qualified and that may very well be true because of the exemption Many of them may not be able to afford a pay cut. You only get paid two thirds of your wages And we know a lot of people can't afford that And then I think rebecca mentioned this also that a lot of workers just fear retaliation If they take time off and it would be illegal for their employers to punish them for doing that But we know the reality is that many workers are very fearful of that And that really connects to my third point, which is that The u.s. Department of labor is really advocating this responsibility here to protect workers and help them They just are not putting out the kind of you know, your rights information from trusted sources in a variety of languages In a variety of media that working people need to have to know about these rights And then kind of doing that really robust enforcement that let workers know if they Take the leaves that they'll be protected and that you know, the u.s. DOL has their back And if I can bridge I just want to add and this is really implicit in our conversation But this is a real gender and racial equity issue too I mean, I think these stories and thank you annie and tell you for sharing You know really highlight that women are most likely to be caregivers Um But also that many mothers are the key breadwinners in their families And this is really true for low-income women. It's true for black mothers. It's particularly true for latina mothers But also native american mothers An asian and pacific islander mothers contribute significant percentages to their families income And stability So all these women who are now caregivers and mothers and essential workers and blacking affordable child care are really left Without good choices in this moment. Yeah, that's such a those are such important points. Thank you so much for sharing that tanya so When tanya was talking about retaliation I I saw annie and kelly you were nodding both vigorously. So annie, let me go to you You know in terms of of Worrying about retaliation, you know, is that something that that you know, why were you nodding so vigorously fair? Well, I think a lot of it really has to do with You know, that is your only source of income And a lot of companies will say, hey, you know, don't speak poorly of us on social media Or you know something of that nature Uh, because you are afraid to really lose your job It especially in a time like this especially with mothers and and and caregivers and things of that nature You need that income But you also need that respect and that dignity That what you're doing is the right thing and what what this company is doing is really truly caring about their employees You know, you need to know that you're safe But you need to know that you can speak out and say, hey There's some injustice going on right now. Can we fix this without the fear of them saying Get out. Yeah. No and on a you know, just as tanya mentioned, you are also the main breadwinner in your family. Isn't that right? So then that is So you have this additional pressure then that you that you're really trying to hold everything together Absolutely. Um, my children's father actually worked for walmart And he was wrongfully terminated a while back and he decided, you know what? We have all these children Childcare will be ridiculously expensive. So I will stay home and and watch the children as you work Um with me being in a grocery store. It is very much like the retail hours everyone speaks about It's here there and everywhere. Some weeks you have more hours. Some weeks you have less hours So the instability of you know, the fair work weeks You know, it kind of puts a damper on him being able to even get a job Because it we don't have any other source of child care If there's an overlap between when I have to leave work and he has to go in So being the soul, you know, like as you were saying breadwinner It it does add that extra stress Yeah, so let me go back to rebecca if I could go back to you, you know So you've heard annie and kelly and marissa earlier, you know, what are you are these did they sound familiar? What are some of the other stories that you're that you're hearing out there? What are people experiencing? Um, it it's what they're saying. I I'm hearing a lot of not only do they not have the paid leave when they need it They don't feel comfortable taking it unless their office is being or their workplace is being very forthcoming with the details And very encouraging and even within that framework even within people whose offices are telling them about this benefit and saying You might qualify you should look into this There's that fear that there's so much unknown, you know, we you see the headlines Record unemployment claims and even you know, how to fill those states are dealing with People realize that they are or people are worried that if they step away from that Job, whether it's, you know in person as an essential worker like annie is or whether it's You know behind a screen like we're talking now that they'll be the first ones to go and layoffs come and Research shows they're not wrong In fact, reaches actually does show that the people most likely to take leave are at companies when the senior People there and the higher ups not only encourage taking paid leave but actually take it themselves to I'm not sure if we're seeing that yet in this current situation. Yeah Well, thank you so much for that rebecca You know tanya to go back to you You know, so do we have any idea? You know, is there any data about how many people are actually using this? You know, do what do we know and and do we know is there data? Is it mainly women, you know or marissa? She was worried that it was mainly somebody, you know who who was like her with resources You know, do we have any data about whether this is Who's using this and and is this exacerbating inequality or Kind of what's happening on the ground or or do we just not know? I think we don't know enough yet. Um, the department of labor really isn't able to track at this point. Um, the reason You know people aren't taking leave or are taking leave. They have been able to resolve Some complaints but nowhere near the scope of the calls they're getting and the questions they're getting Which suggests to me that a lot of the calls they're being told they're not eligible For the leave and as I mentioned there, you know, they're leading small businesses Kind of decide on their own and self-certify that they're exempt from providing it and that covers You know, basically 90 of the firms covered by the law a fall within that small business category So that really, you know, we're just leaving out so many of the workers that it's hard Even if we had the data to get the good data The way we'll really know is when employers claim there, you know As rebecca mentioned employers get reimbursed for this by the federal government So the best way for us to know is um, when irs if they will release data on sort of who's claiming reimbursement for this Wow, so we may not really know how this law is really working Until uh until tax time sometime a year from now Which leaves, you know, kelly, let me go back to you, you know And and we do want to call out to the to the participants today if you have thoughts or questions or stories You know, we'd really like to to hear from you as well You know, but kelly, let's go back to you, you know So you're one of the lucky halves if you will, you know, and you're talking about how this really You know, you're hanging on by a thread and this sort of threw you all the lifeline, you know in your view, you know How would it feel how differently would it feel if somebody like like oni was also able to to You know To be eligible and and to be able to to have some kind of paid leave like this What does it mean when when you get this and you know, so many other people don't You know, like like marissa. I share that sentiment of how How it feels to be benefiting from a A benefits program, right that we essentially paid into already, right? When it comes to taxes, it feels to me that Walking through this privilege and walking through my experience as someone who is already In a comfortable position. It just feels I won't say dirty yet. I won't stay guilty, but I just feel like this excruciating Sense of loss for my sisters who don't get to participate in this program for which they're eligible For which their service is so necessary and For which they sacrifice a tremendous amount that's unnecessary When we live in a nation that Has the means to provide for them Yeah So, um, honey, I want to go back to you. Um, you know, uh So you have so many other workers, I imagine like in your position What does that feel like when you're you know, when you're part of the ones that are left out? I feel like They may say i'm essential But they don't treat me as such You know, we're we're very important. Um You know, we are trying to grow our economy. We are trying to help people And we we put our lives on the line Every day that we clock in every day we walk into our our business And It kind of makes me feel like they're just like, oh Good job. Here's a high five. You know, it's like, oh, just make sure you don't get sick You know Like how how can we We do the best we can but we all know that you know with with this corona virus It it sees Nothing it just does what it wants to do and if we get sick we get sick. Um, our stores can do so much, but I I should feel like If I get sick, it'll be okay My family will be fine. I shouldn't feel like if I'm not feeling well I need to still get up and go to work so I don't lose my job or something of that nature Right So last thoughts rebecca. Let me go to you for closing thoughts. Um, you know, what kind of uh, you know What kind of discussions are out there that you're that you're hearing what's happening on the ground in terms of What's next because even this emergency paid leave law it expires in december So while it's historic, it's imperfect and it's temporary So are there movements afoot to try to fix it now and and fix it for a look for later and for the future There are there are movements to fix it and I know the house is taking up something But the senate and the administration indicated that they want to go further on these benefits But we are seeing more of in the conversations I'm having is that there's going to be the significant mental health effect a lot of people are reporting anxiety And stress and depression and a lot of people are actually starting to say wait a minute I need to focus on my kids. I need to focus on my family Like we can't just keep pushing them through in this current system and expect it to be okay at the end Without putting in the effort now And in my conversations, I was having people who do take leave They're citing that as the reason it isn't really the zoom school It isn't really even since the hours it's I need to be there for my family right now We can't just put the kids in front of tablets for eight hours while we do our jobs And then except sit down for dinner and do this for weeks on end and I I hope this is very temporary and we're looking at a sea change coming this summer But there's a lot of conversation that shows that might not be the case So it's possible this conversation goes on a lot longer. Right, right. Thank you so much for that rebecca It's really, you know, a child care centers. There was a survey Done that about half are closed. Many may not open up again Schools it's still up in the air what schools are going to do summer camps There's just a lot of insecurity and uncertainty for families out there still So thank you. I'd like to thank all of you for for joining us for another crisis conversation Thank you so much to the panelists for being here for sharing your stories and their perspective Thank you so much to the participants in the chat We left a number of links here in the chat and we're we're happy to send those out again To rebecca story to marissa story She wrote a piece about her own experience in the washington post To a lot of the work that we do at the better life lab around paid family leave, which we see as a real Fundamental human right that we really need to be pushing for universally in the united states So thank you all so much. I would like to thank my wonderful better life lab team Jen's eye at st. Julian who's just a wonderful Backup, you know partner in this. I'd love to thank the new america Events team my producer date our producer david schulman. Thank you all so much for coming next week We're going to be talking about return to work What that's going to be like whether you're in an office or out of an office with alex pang Sort of looking at short term as well as long term effects So in the meantime, I just heard a wonderful phrase which I think we could all use which is reduce the chaos And be kind so with that. Thank you all so much for joining. We'll see you next week Thank you very much