 Welcome back to Esoteric Atlanta. We're on my channel this week for our weekly coffee chats. I'm so excited to have my friend, Katherine Edwards back. How you doing today, Katherine? It looks pretty in England. The sun looks bright. The sun's bright. It's really freezing cold. So I've been out treating horses all morning. So I'm very relieved to be in my warm office with my cat here, my dog there, and excited for this conversation because I think it's a really important one. Yes, it's a conversation that is sweeping the United States by, it's like a firestorm right now in the United States with this topic because of a case about Gypsy Rose Blanchard who most of you, you have to be living under a rock right now in the United States if you don't know about this case because it's literally all over everything. It's all over YouTube, social media. And just to make a long story short to get to what we're gonna talk about, this is one of the worst cases of munchausen by proxy that specialists who specialize in this mental psychiatric disorder have ever seen. And it's the only case they have on record where the victim, Robbie's given his two thoughts too, see if y'all can hear him bark and he's chiming away. But the victim of this munchausen by proxy, she's the only case where she's actually had to unalive her caretaker, her mother, her perpetrator in order to free herself. That's how bad it got. And so I talked to you, Catherine, a little bit about this case and the munchausen by proxy, and it's just such a fascinating psychological condition people have. And so you're a biologist and I know that you've seen this with animals as well. So I'm gonna pass the ball over to you. What do you first of all know of munchausen by proxy or munchausen, which is when you do it to yourself and by proxy is when you do it to somebody else? Yeah, so a couple of things. One is not something you cover in biology at all. I mean, I did do quite a lot of psychology classes and I did a lot of abnormal psychology and it comes into that. And it's such a fascinating area because I think anyone who's been exploring what's really going on in the world is really understanding how psychology, mindset, mind control is absolutely key to anything that happens in our lives and in our environment. And when you mentioned it, I don't really know anything about this case because being in the UK, I haven't seen it and I don't watch the news anyway. But what I have seen, when I say I see it with animals, it's not the animals that do it, it's the humans that do it to their animals. And as a holistic therapist that have been working for 20 plus years with humans and their animals, one of the things, and we spoke about this years ago when we first met actually that surprised me most was about how people needed their animals to remain sick, to get attention and needs. And it was a very worrying trend that myself and other therapists were seeing and vets actually as well. But of course, something like the Munch-Helvins by proxy, it's such a complex area. And one, I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatric specialist, but the danger is for me, Bryce, is it can go both ways. So we watched a program, I can't remember what it was called about, do you remember about Christmas time? We were all watching it. It will come to me the name of a minute where a mother was accused of Munch-Helvins, but she wasn't. Take care of Maya. Yes. Take care of Maya. That was it. And it gave me goosebumps at because that, the thing is it's got the danger to go so wrong in both directions. But I do see it more and more. And it's one of the reasons why I've stepped back actually from one of the in-person, a lot of the in-person therapy work I did, just to give myself a break, because I'm seeing when people are really desperate with their animals, if their animals are in a sick state and kept in there, they get a lot more attention, a lot more sympathy. And we were seeing this and then you remove the animal from that situation and the animal's absolutely fine. It's a very fine line, isn't it, to know what's going on? Yeah, and it's actually, it's interesting you mentioned, take care of Maya because the Gypsy Rose, the victim of this case, who's now trying to become an advocate for victims of Much Houses by Proxy, she actually just released a video where she talked about how we have an extreme. We have a case with her where she fell through the cracks. And we have someone like Maya, whose mother did not have Much Houses by Proxy, but the hospital accused her of it so much so that she ended up unaliving herself. And just for people who absolutely have no idea what we're talking about, the definition of Much Houses and Syndrome by Proxy is a psychiatric disorder in which a parent or other caregiver seek attention from medical professionals by causing or fabricating signs or symptoms of illness in a child. And most of the time it is the mother that will do this. So it's a psychiatric disorder. Now my, I keep going back and forth because we know with the human mind, do these parents actually cognitively know they're doing this? That they're poisoning? So a lot of cases that I've been watching along this, a lot of cases the parent will actually poison the child, will put lawn fertilizer in their food or rat poison. So the child will be sick, like will be sick. And they take the child to the doctors and the doctors for the most part are not gonna run tests for poison because you would never, it's a rare case, you never assume the parents doing this. So they're running all these tests for all these different illnesses that are obviously coming back negative. And so it becomes baffling for the doctors too. Now in Gypsy Rose's case, what's really fascinating is when she, after Hurricane Katrina, which they were in the New Orleans area, her mother who was the person who did this to her actually used Hurricane Katrina to her advantage. She got Gypsy in her airlifted to Missouri, especially like nonprofit paid for because Missouri Springfield had this great medical community and she then used the hurricane to say, well, we don't have any of her medical records. So then the mother, Deedee had to become a historian for Gypsy's medical history. And the doctors were trying to, like one of her pediatrician in Missouri said, the mother claimed that she had, she was a cancer survivor. She had dealt with cancer. And so the pediatrician said out of all the list of things that she had on her medical that her mother said she had, she had the cancer was the most concerning. And so he was asking questions of her mother, what kind of cancer was it? What was the treatment process? Like taking notes, she couldn't remember the cancer and she couldn't remember the treatment process. Now Catherine, you're a parent. If your child had gone through leukemia, childhood leukemia or something, I would imagine you would be taking notes. Like you would remember everything your child went through, all the diagnosis is, wouldn't you? Cause that's your child. Like you absolutely remember these things. Yeah. And how old was this? How old was Gypsy was when this was happening? She started when she was three to four months old. So she went through her whole life. Her mother pulled her out of school in the second grade claiming that the doctors or the school attendants did not know how to medically take care of her. So she wasn't going, she only in the court documents when she was arrested after she unalived her mother at like 19, 20 years old. She claims she only had a second grade education cause her mother did not homeschool her. She got into a motorcycle accident when she was five. She opened the back of her grandfather's motorcycle and it wasn't that bad. She just scraped her knee basically and the mother brought in the wheelchair and she was never allowed to get out of the wheelchair after that her mother started shaving her head and telling her that her hair was gonna fall anyway. So they might as well just shave it off. So most of her life she had a bald head that her mother was shaving. But here's the thing I've, you know, with Gypsy Rose because her mother kept her so isolated from the outside world, she thought she was sick. She had an idea that cancer patients when they lose their hair maybe they'll shave it off at one go but it doesn't grow back until the treatment you don't have to keep shaving it, right? One of the saddest stories is when she got her period her mother did not tell her what that was and just told her to put a diaper on. So she didn't even know, you know, and when she got older and that was when the doctor, the pediatrician in Missouri started suspecting something wasn't right and the nurse in Missouri found three different birth certificates for Gypsy with three different ages. Wow. So the pediatrician assumed she had been kidnapped. So he contacted Family Services. She hadn't been kidnapped. He didn't even consider much housings by proxy. The neurologist specialist that the pediatrician sent them to because he couldn't find anything wrong with her actually put in his notes. He believed the mother was suffering from much housings by proxy but because of the laws in Missouri especially there was nothing he could do. As a doctor, he could not go to the state to the Family Services without proof. You can't go in Missouri on suspicion he could have lost his license. So he put it in the notes. This is what I don't understand because I don't, I mean, obviously I'm in the UK so I don't really understand how your laws, your medical laws work in different states but when you take the take care of Maya which was, I sobbed in that film it's just a brilliant film, anyone needs to watch it. Now the reason I watch that is I had a very good friend that I met when I had my first child whose child was very injured. And when the child was poke injured the mother was accused of munchisans and making it all up. And basically, I mean, there's no way you could make these symptoms up. I saw the child myself. I mean, it was just ludicrous. And anyway, a long story short, eventually they realized the link and it was to do with the swine flu which caused narcolepsy and catalyzed things. And then the mother, the psychological stress of being told that you're doing this to the child is it's a behavior problem, you're making it up. So this is where I don't understand the American laws where how the Maya situation could have happened. It's different states. It's different states, it's different laws. Yeah, yeah. And that's where it kind of goes into a debate and this is kind of what, you know why I wanted to really, because what is, what do you do? Like what is the right? I mean, then, you know in some cases with what happened to Maya that was way too much government interference. It was way too much, but with Gypsy, it was way too little. That neurologist should have been allowed, doctors should be allowed to present to at least talk to another board of doctors and be like, these are my suspicions. How do we figure this out without, how do we figure this out while airing on the side of caution? How do we figure this out? And in the, in the, in the understanding that maybe it's not much housing, maybe the mother seriously something is going on and we just can't figure it out. Like how do we go about protecting the child but also protecting the child? You know, and I mean, one thing that, so Didi, the mother was a nurse's assistant. And so she had the ability to read about medical issues and know how to fake them. Now, Gypsy, Gypsy wasn't in on the con. She, she was isolated from her father. She literally only had her mother and one of the cons that her mother tried to sell was several palsy. Well, one of the signs of several palsy is obsessive drooling. And they tried all the tests and she didn't, she didn't have it. She's perfectly healthy. And so what her mother did was put a bunch of orange gel on her mouth to make her drool obsessively. So they finally did the surgery to remove her salvatore glands which caused all her teeth to fall out. So by the time she was like 12, 13 years old she had dentures. Oh my God. What does this? Well, this is where I think this subject links so much into everything that we're talking about in terms of disclosure. And the reason I'm saying that is this is where the false narratives get so dangerous, so dangerous because the trouble is there's a lot of mistrust in social services. There's a lot of mistrust in medical care. And rightly so, I mean, rightly so. But equally, you've got these really extreme cases and this has only been found out because it is so extreme and she did unalive the person. That's how it got. And the other people are showing around with these things being done and they've got no idea. And the whole thing about psychological health is so complex. Look at the arguments of people now Okay, very controversial. Let's take autism as a sample. You've got one group of the spiritual community, for example and I'm just giving examples from the spiritual. Obviously society has got way more examples. You've got one group who are saying this is gifted children. They're just before their time. They're here to teach us a different way of living. And then you've got other people who are like this is caused by toxins and programming, things like that. And actually when you clear their bodies up you clear this up. Now, where do you fit on things like this? It's the problem is we are being poisoned all the time and people think that's a conspiracy theory. So it's such a tangled web of where delusion lies. When you talk about channeling and what stage is it channeling and what stage is it a split personality? And what stage is it? You're just your imagination. Exactly. And that's why it's such a tough thing to talk about because there's been multiple documentaries, you guys. If you're in the United States, there's a whole series on Amazon Prime called Prison Confessions and there's a mommy, dad and dearest on HBO. They've made a made for TV movie called The Act where they basically actors played because the story is gripping the United States because it's just so shocking what happened to this child. And the fact that she felt she had the only, her mother even had her when Gypsy found out that she was actually 19 because she thought she was 14 by looking at a Medicaid card. Her mother had a lawyer draw up paper saying she was mentally incompetent so that if she tried to go to help to the police and of course at this point Gypsy herself was not clear on what was going on. She thought she was literally sick. She thought she had cancer. From one interview I heard she didn't realize she didn't have cancer until she got to prison after unaliving her mother. And it's really amazing. Shh. Lola, it's all right, darling. Someone's just come back in with Romeo and my horse. Lola, shh, shh, darling. What's really amazing with all of this I've sort of lost my train of thought now but you and I talk about, you know everyone who's watching this is very well aware of how your thoughts to manifest. So it's quite amazing actually that she didn't develop all these conditions because it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy when you're told you've got all these things. I mean, you know, if people are given six months to live it's very well proven. They normally die within that six months so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. So I think there's so many things that I think are so important about this. I mean one absolute tragic case and this is where I really don't envy anyone who works in the medical profession and social services because you're almost damned if you do and damned if you don't. And most of these things are actually a judgment call. You know, when you get that listen to that intuition there's something not right. But we've had loads of cases not specifically in Montreal and there's by props in the UK but where, you know, parents have been overridden in terms of their ability to make medical decisions for their children and things like that. So the problem is this our belief systems are so powerful and making people think we're right or wrong. We talk about it all the time, black or white, you know it's this delusional thinking that it opens up a whole can of worms for every single one of us watching this. How set in our belief systems how brainwashed in our belief systems are that we can't ask what if what if there's something else going on here? You know, we've had so many conversations whole feature about this. But imagine what the world would be a different place if we weren't convinced that this person was our savior or this is right or this is dangerous and this is wrong. Well, it's like, you know, and I know the story is so complicated, you guys, with Gypsy specifically so I would highly suggest going back and watching all the documentaries because there's so many moving parts to get us where we got. And the big controversy was she was charged with second degree unaliving and she did spend about eight and a half years in prison, she just got released. She was supposed to be 10 years, but she got paroled early. And she's one of the only cases where she flourished in prison. And one of the things she says in the documentary is that she goes, I know people think I'm crazy for saying this, but one of her best memories was getting to the prison and standing out in the rec yard and almost crying for joy that she was free, that she felt free in prison. She finally got the experience with social interactions with other humans, with other girls. She learned about tampons, like all these things that she should have already known. And when you see her from when she entered into prison to now, she looks a lot better, she looks a lot, and she's been kind of making the rounds. And a lot of people have a problem with her new found sense of fame from this. But again, I think what it is is that people are just so fascinated the fact that she fell through the cracks. And one thing you learn is what you're saying, Catherine, all of these stories, all of these documentaries go through all these people in her life who questioned. Who questioned. And the thing about master manipulators, and her mother was a psychotic master manipulator, is they always have an answer for anything and they always make you feel bad for questioning them. Like her father, for example, who I'm not, I know people probably thinking the father, why was he watching the documentary? I actually really liked her dad. I think her dad got screwed too. And I think he was very much victimized by the mother and she even says she holds no fault against her father because of what her mother did to her father too. But when she was first put in the wheelchair, he even says, her siblings, the mother's siblings called me and said, you know Gypsy can actually walk. So he confronted the mother being like, why are you putting our child in a wheelchair if she can walk? And her answer was, well, with the muscular dystrophy, sometimes she can walk, but sometimes she can't. So we have to have the wheelchair present. Meanwhile, she had never been diagnosed with muscular dystrophy. But the father didn't know that because he was off traveling to work to help pay for that, to help pay for the medical stuff she was going through. And yeah, it's wild. And the fact that all these people questioned, the fact that, oh, Catherine, the story of the feeding tube, which apparently feeding tubes are very, very, very common with much houses by proxy because then the parent can control how much food the child gets or doesn't get. They can, it's a better way to insert poison and more medicine to make them sicker. And hearing Gypsy, it makes me emotional. Hearing Gypsy talk about getting this feeding tube and how painful it was and having to change it out. They don't use anesthetics. And then the grandparents saying, well, when they watched her, she would eat just fine. So all these people were seeing these things and it just goes to show you, like our friend Tamara says, listen to your gut. If something feels wrong, something, you might not know it was much, you might not even know what much houses by proxy is, but people noticed something was wrong. And then when they got to Missouri, there's the scene, I've watched the multi-part series many times now and the pediatrician, they interview him. And there's this one scene where he's talking about and he gets, he goes, hold on a second. And you can see like his eyes tear up and you're like, just give me a moment because he gets so emotional. You can tell that he's a good person who got into medicine for the right reasons. And he's a pediatrician, so he's dealing with children. And the fact that he knew something was wrong but had no idea it was, and that guilt and responsibility he carries now because he knew something was wrong. He just didn't know what it was, he got it wrong. What he thought was wrong, he got wrong. He thought it was kidnapping. He contacted the stakes, he thought she'd been kidnapped. And so it just goes to show you that your gut tells you a whole lot more if you just listen to it. It's telling you that something isn't right when something isn't right. And really important and also the fact that we live in society, and again, there's been so many studies you can look up on this guys. So if a woman's walking down a street and she gets attacked and raped or something, the chances of someone stepping in to help her is if you're in a crowded street, no one steps in to help you because everyone always assumes someone else is going to do it. Whilst if you're the only person that's there, there's a much higher chance you'll step in and intervene because you know it's you or no one. And the lesson for this is what we're seeing. This is why we're in such a mess globally now because everyone assumes someone else is going to do something about it. We get it all the time. It's like, why aren't you doing this? Why aren't you doing that? Well, why aren't you? You know, don't rely and expect someone else to do all your dirty work for you. All of these things, it's even like the son of Sam that we're talking about more. You know, all of these things, there's so many chances that people could have done, different people could have stepped in and stopped it, so many chances. Look at the lockdowns. There's so much that as a society, we could have done to have stopped this. Look at everyone moaning about this. Well, how many really got off their backsides and actually did something about it and swallowed their pride and their ego and allowed themselves to be ridiculed? The thought that they might change one person's mind and this is the problem our ego gets in the way the whole time, we don't want to be humiliated. We don't want to be wrong, but that's why we're in this state. No horse in a herd worries about, oh, I'm not going to tell them that there's a lion there because it might not be a lion and I don't want them to laugh at me. So it's too late. You know, guys, we've got to, and when I say guys, it's so annoying for people. I apologize to their listeners. I'm talking to humanity. All of us. All of us, me included, every single time, we don't step up and do something and say something. And a lot of my corporate career was in risk management and the whole point about risk management is you look at what are the probability of it happening and what is the impact if it is? So the chances are, it's like if there's a 90% chance that you're going to slip on that slippery surface, but actually it's a soft surface, sand surface. So if you do slip, you're not going to hurt yourself. There's a very low risk. Then you don't have to do something about it. But if there's a 1% chance that this might happen but the consequence is death, then that moves it straight up the priority list. And I think if we can use everything we learned and talked about over the last few years to say, what can I do to help an animal in need, a child in need, a person in need to stop this reign of terror that the non-elites are reigning over people. You know, you have to take action. It's as simple as that. Each and every person has to take some action. Yeah, it's, and hold on one second. My boyfriend just got home. So he's playing with the dog. Hold on one second, guys. Sorry. I'm filming to see him. Hold on. Sorry about that guys. You're about to hear my boyfriend making really silly noise with my dog. So as adorable as that would have been, I don't know if you would have been happy about that thing in the background. So yeah, it's, you know, and I think that's the thing too, Catherine, is that we never, we never, when you're a healthy-minded person to an extent, when you have a moral compass, you would never hurt a child. I would never want a child to any child, not just my nephew or nieces or my child, or I would never want any child to go through the horrors of medical treatment if it's unnecessary. And I think most parents and most healthy-minded people are that way. These treatments that these munchausen by proxy parents put their kids through are unnecessary because they're not, they're not sick. Same with animals. We can't understand how psychopaths think. We can't understand how someone would crave attention more than the safety and happiness of an innocent being. And I think that's why sometimes we walk past situations and we know something's off, but we talk ourselves out of it because we would never do that. We would never poison people through this or try to hurt people's food or anything like that. And it's having that education. I mean, that's the most important thing is what the Cassiopean say, knowledge is power, knowledge protects, and knowledge is infinite. The fact that we know these things exist and the fact that we're being re-reminded now over and over and over again to listen to your gut. And again, just like that pediatrician, he knew something wasn't right. You didn't know what it was because he had not munchausen by proxy, but it can't be very rare. You know, as a healthy person, you would never assume a mother would do that to the child. But he knew something wasn't right. And just knowing that and persevering to get the answers as to why something wasn't right, she would have been saved a lot sooner. And it wouldn't have resulted in her now being a felon, you know? And I do have to say, like I really respect her because when she's obviously gone through a lot of healing while she was in prison. And it's the same thing with our greater world. When something doesn't feel right, you don't, I love that analogy with the lion. I kind of laugh because, yeah, a wild horse would be contemplating like, should I save something? Well, look like an idiot. No, they just say something. You know, being able to be like, I know that I don't have proof as to why I feel this way, but I feel like something isn't right. And you can even say, I just feel like something's not right. I laughed hysterically, Catherine. There is a heart of the mountains where we go hiking that I don't like. I've never liked it. I've always gotten in a bad mood when we hike it. I don't know why. I've just never liked being there. But my boyfriend loves it. And he went a few weeks back, he went camping up there. And I was like, you're going by yourself. I don't like that place. I don't know why I don't like it. I don't like that, that one trail I don't like. Well, one of our friends, actually, you know her, Catherine, does a lot of work up there. And I was telling her off camera and she was like, oh yeah, there's a lot of really weird stuff, like portal stuff going on there. I was like, I knew it. Like, I just like knew, you know? And so even with silly stuff like that, it's like, listen to your gut. This, hopefully this Gypsy Rose Blanchard case teaches us so much more about the world at large in our place in it and looking alive and just like really being aware of what's happening. And you're right, Catherine, we're expecting people to come rescue us. Nobody rescued them as well. When someone says something, we don't just agree. I mean, I welcome all the people that are putting stuff out there. So long as they're not doing it in a way to try and brainwash you and convince you and shame you. And I think guilt and shame is a very powerful driver for affecting human behavior. And I think, you know, people can believe what they like. So long as they're not affecting other people or deliberately trying to mislead people. I mean, I don't really believe people that's out there. And I think a lot of people generally believe, you know, their point of view. But if you're not open to being wrong, that's when it all goes wrong. Every single one of us needs to question, question, question in a nice way, not in a paranoid way. Well, what if this is wrong? And also the evidence will speak for itself. You know, how is it working out for you? You know, if I put this belief system around money or health or friends or the state of the world, well, how is that working out for you? You know, if everything's hunky-dory in your life, great, keep going. You're on track. It's not like, how is waiting for Nisara working out for you? How is waiting for the med bed working out for you? And this thing, I think it's very enlightening. I really want to go and see it now. I want to watch the series because if she's managed to come out of this experience, stronger, healthier, and in a good place, wow, that's someone I want to be watching. And that's what's so, I think people are so fascinated by her because she really did, first of all, when she first was arrested in 2015, everybody was, no one knew who she was. It just broke, because of, you know, the mother was living off of her, basically, because she was getting all this help from the state, the Habitat for Humanity, belt them a house, and Gypsy was just kind of used as a pawn, and she had no, and actually, the state of Missouri was going to, she was facing life in prison or capital punishment. When the prosecutor found out about what she had lived through, he lessened the charge to second degree, and she ended up taking a plea deal because that would give her the lesser, which was a 10-year sentence, of course she got out in eight and a half years because she was good, she was a good prisoner, and you know, and people debate that, should she, people don't even think she should have been in prison, that she literally was fighting for her life, and she planned, she planned the unaliving, like she had to plan it with somebody else, because otherwise, anyway, I absolutely, and so, since she's been out, you know, a lot of people are worried because she only knew manipulation growing up, but she has addressed that on many podcasts, that she is in weekly therapy, and she understands that she, what she doesn't know, she doesn't know, and she's working with a therapist to help her navigate right from wrong and navigate honesty versus, because her, and that's one thing I will say, one of the specialists from Much Housing by Proxy did say that kids who grow up, the victims of Much Housing by Proxy, it's not that they're liars intentionally, most of their childhood was filled with fabrication, and so they have a hard time as adults understanding reality from vanity. Absolutely. And the fact that she's aware of that, that she's self-aware enough to, and a lot of people, like she went on a big talk show here, and they were like, girl, you should not have been in prison, and she goes, well, yeah, I should have, I committed a crime, you know, she's very accountable to, you know, I just, this sounds like someone I really need to learn from, because I just think it's amazing, and this is where we've got to really, the people that have obviously have been able to help us through this have obviously done a really good job. Well, her dad has really stepped in, and her step-mom, like, they have really stepped in now. I mean, it's so complex. Everyone's, as you always say, oh, but where the grace of God go out, you know, that we just don't know what people have been through, we don't know why they're making the decisions they made, we don't know why they're behaving, but we can still call out when something's not right in a compassionate way. And I think, you know, this just goes to show just how complex life is, how complex humans are compared to other animals, and that's not a judgment thing, it just is, because we know how to manipulate our words, you know, this language that we use is so manipulative. And I think once we accept that and realise that it works both ways, then we can be a lot happier and a lot, a lot less hard on ourselves as well, because you don't know what you don't know. And a no rational person would think, I watched a film on food price, and it was like people injecting the most disgusting things to make prawns and shims look like. And I was like, what rational person would ever come up with this? Of course people eat this food, think it's okay, because no one with a rational mind would ever think someone would be sick enough to do something like that. To tamper with the food supply. Yeah, well that's the thing too, it gets into the psychology too of Gypsy Rose, and that's where people, I've watched some people kind of, you know, because in order for her to plan this escape, we'll call it the escape, she had to get on her mother's laptop and create a fake Facebook account to try to find help. And people were like, when her mother was asleep, people were like, well why didn't she reach out to the police officers? Why did she think this was her only option? I'm like, you're looking at a child who's been mentally abused her whole life. She doesn't even know she's been abused. She just knows she can't get out. Her mother, she tried to run away at one point, her mother dog changed her to a bed for two weeks. You know, like at 19 years old, she was having to go to the bathroom with her mother in the room with her, take baths with her mother in the room with her. And she's also been labeled mentally incompetent by her mother illegally. So do you know what that mental prison is like? Do you know that she probably didn't think she was also convinced by her mother that her father hated her and despised her even though her father was constantly trying to get in touch with her, constantly sending her presents, constantly, you know, the mother isolated her from him so she didn't think she had him to call, she had no one but this other kid that helped her do the crime because she had tried other resources. And there's only many times you can try before it ends disastrously for you. You know, you see people in all sorts of situations like that, you know, sometimes you've got one chance to get out. Yep. And she had to go, oh, it's just unbelievable. It's just unbelievable. I will send you Catherine if you, so you guys, I would highly suggest every, this is just, I've been fascinated by this case since 2015 when she was first arrested. And now that she's been released and is doing the rounds and people are, I mean, she's already got close to 10 million followers on Instagram overnight. And she wants to make it her mission. Of course, now she's answering all of these questions and stuff, but her mission, she wants to be a spokesperson for victims of much housing by proxy and she really wants to use her life and her stuff. She's 32 years old. She's been out of prison for a couple of weeks. She's only been free in her whole life for like two weeks. She went from one prison with her mother to a lesser prison in the United States government. For the first time in her life at 32, she's got long hair. I mean, to anyone that's been through such trauma that prison as a release, anyone, I mean, I know a lot of prisoners want to stay in prison because they feel safer there and they feel that's the only thing. And that says a lot. I mean, talk about gratitude. We talk about gratitude a lot. And when I hear cases like this, it's not for anyone listening to not honor what they're feeling and what they're going through. I don't mean that at all, but actually sometimes going through things like this can be a really good reminder of wow. Yeah, at least, I'm actually pulling it up, guys. I'm gonna pull it up to show you guys because I highly suggest that you guys, this is, and it is, as Catherine said, even just looking at this from a broader perspective of manipulation, like what manipulation looks like and how easy it is because the neighborhood habitat for humanity fell for it. You know, like her life was so good at deceiving. So guys, if you are in the United States, I don't know about, I guess you could find it on Amazon Prime. I've actually, look, I've got all of Gypsy pulled up here. The prison confessions of Gypsy Rose blanchered. So if you are on Amazon Prime, this is a lifetime was the station. It's a multi-part series about her that's, it's really well done, very, very well edited. And then let me, here is her on Instagram. Oh, need to log in. But anyway, she's on Instagram. Let me actually, I'm gonna show you, let me get off here and pull up HBO for a second for you guys so you guys can see the HBO documentary as well. It's just so fascinating. I mean, I can watch this story over and over and over again because it is just so unbelievably crazy. The fact that, that what she went through, let's see, mommy, here it is. So here is the HBO documentary, Mommy, Dead and Dearest. And that's her. This picture, she was probably like 16 years old but forced to act like a, like a kindergartner, you know. That's the mommy, dead and dearest. And that was actually made while she was still in prison. And of course there is, I think the act is also, it's called the act. It's also on HBO, I believe, which was the mini series that they created based off of her life story, just because it's just so, so wild and so crazy. And, you know. So I really hope this is one of the stories where you wish and where it's like when you listen to Kathie O'Brien's story and you just think, or people who've survived all sorts of things. I think it's a real reminder about the power of the recovery of the physical and the mental body, how resilient we are, how huge that survival, that will to survival is in us. And things like this, there's so many lessons we can learn. And yeah, I'm certainly going to be going and having a look, because you just think, wow, there's so much we can apply to what is going on in other areas of control in everyone's lives and how people do behave. Are we sarcastic? Why? You can send this to your kids and be like, you're childhood wasn't that bad, was it? Yeah, exactly. You're welcome for not doing this to you as a child. So yeah, you guys. And I can't wait to hear your thoughts down in the comment section below. I will say something, both my boyfriend and I, because he's watched it multiple times with me too. After Dee Dee, the mother's body was found, they cremated her and they sent her ashes back to her parents, her dad and her siblings in New Orleans. And in one of the documentaries, I can't remember which one, they say they got the ashes, they didn't know what to do with it, so they all decided just to flush her down the toilet. So, and that was their sister and daughter, but they were so upset with what, one of her cousins is a famous tattoo artist in New Orleans and he's interviewed a lot and he even made a comment. He was like, when I found out she was dead, I thought, well, my first thought was Gypsy finally snapped. I was waiting for this, she finally snapped. She finally couldn't take it anymore. And so you can see how this woman's behavior, obviously, even before Gypsy was born, was very manipulative, very evil. And yeah, so I thought she wasn't given any support to help, you know. They talk a little bit about her childhood, apparently she was the youngest of six and her mother, who's no longer alive, was a little bit like this as well and kind of did the same thing to her with a heart murmur, but not as bad. So, you know, and I do think Gypsy, I mean, she hasn't said this, but from what I see from her interview, I think she is aware that this is in her DNA. Yeah. Aware of something. Yeah, you can transmute it, absolutely. Yeah. She's got what seems like a really great dad and a really great stepmom. And her stepmom has embraced her and just loves on her. And, you know, she's got two half-siblings that she's really amassed herself in with the healthy side of her family now. And she is married, she did get married in prison. People are very suspicious about this. And my thing is like, if it ends in divorce, it ends in divorce. What, her getting married isn't the worst thing that's happened to her in this life. You know, just let the girl have some happiness. You know, she's, this is her first time she's been free in her whole 32 years. So, you know, she's gonna make mistakes, so are we all, you know? And just be glad she's alive and she's actually gonna do something with her life to try to help other victims. And she did speak about Maya, that that case that was so wrong because the doctors were wrong. The mother did not have much housing, you know? And so she really wants to help change the laws and change the way we perceive this type of coercion with an innocent person's help. So anyway, guys, let me know. I can't wait to hear your call. It's a really interesting one, but it's so much. My mind's just going, no, it's like, wow, it's so complex. But yeah. So, and I will say one more thing I forgot to mention. When you hear her talk, guys, when you hear Gypsy talk at 32, she still has a very baby voice. I have learned that that is a sign of childhood trauma when adults still have baby voices. It is a huge indicator that there is major childhood trauma. So that's something interesting to know. When you hear her talk, you'll hear she sounds like she's 12. You'll hear that in her. So that's just an interesting piece of information. I feel like we all should kind of keep in the back of our head that there are signs. There are signs of these things that are out there and in the world. So, and if I can remember, guys, I will post in the description box below other interviews that she's done since she's been out that are really fascinating where she talks a lot about her recovery. So I'll post those down there as well for you guys to watch. And I can't wait to hear. Let me know. I know the Americans, we've been inundated with this story, especially the last couple of weeks, all over everything. But even for my viewers, my friends like Catherine who are not in America, if you've heard of this story or you're watching this story now and you have different laws in your country, like let's start that conversation. Cause this is an American problem. This is a human problem where people over the world are doing this. So, yeah. All right, you guys. All right, thank you so much. That was such fun. And bye everybody. Bye.