 Welcome to the Homeland Show, episode 37, Proxmox Backups and Proxmox Backup Server. This is a topic that Jay's gonna take the lead on. He is our resident Proxmox expert here. I also already have linked in the show notes a more in-depth discussion where Jay put together a long, more visual oriented tutorial. And this podcast we plan to just kinda discuss it, talk about some of the features of it and learn about it. But if you're looking for the visual side of it, that is of course linked in the show notes and linked right over onto Jay's site and his YouTube channel for a more in-depth step-by-step tutorial on it. It's a pretty cool product. Now, first thing we gotta do is get all the way is think our sponsor, Linode. And Linode is how you're listening to this if you downloaded it from our website. And that's actually a question someone, I think had tagged me in Twitter on just asking what it looks like on the backend. 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I think the metric I use is did I have to increase the instance size on Linode? Because, you know, when it gets to the ceiling I get all these alerts that the CPU is going crazy and the IO is going crazy. So that's happened twice now. So that's my favorite metric but for the actual metric, yeah, it's like going crazy. I love it. Yeah. And that's in addition to all the streams we get here on YouTube. So it's kind of cool to see that from the backend. Maybe that will be some other episode we talk about as some of the hosting we do in Linode and how we actually run this server that puts this podcast in your ears and lets you download it right from the RSS feed. So thanks a lot for being a sponsor. Offer code down below if you're interested and Jay's gonna take it away with the Proxmox backup. Yeah. So a few quick updates on my Proxmox server installation just so people have like a visual of what I actually am running here. So I have two Proxmox servers currently. So I don't have high availability enabled because you'd need at least three servers for that. But I have some flexibility because it's all mine. So if it's down, it's down. I don't have anything on there that can't be recreated from a backup which we'll get to how to do that shortly. So I just have the two servers high availability. I mean, I could be a few minutes down. It's not gonna hurt me any. But so I have a PVE1 and PVE2 and I have them in a cluster which means I can pass VMs back and forth. And one of the amazing things and I'm sure other platforms do this too. And I think you'll be my commentator on the XCPNG side of things for equivalency. Does that support live migration even if you're not using shared storage? You can do live migration even when you're not using shared storage in XCPNG. Okay, I figured that you could probably do that. So live migration is the best if you have shared storage. And shared storage is essentially you have your network attached storage server that stores all the VM disks. So the actual hypervisors themselves only have to pass the VMs back and forth but the storage is in the same place. That means you can switch VMs back and forth between the servers in seconds. But on my end, I actually went about it a different way though. I have two, I just mentioned I have the two servers but I have on each an NVMe SSD of one terabyte, local storage. And as much as I love having shared storage which I technically do have shared storage as we'll talk about later when we get to the backups which I'm just giving you a summary. It's just so amazing having NVMe because it's just the data transfer is just so fast especially over 10 gig with NVMe is just great. I mean, but that's overkill for most people, right? So I have all these VMs, they're fast. I can transfer them back and forth. I have to back them up. So that's where we get to Proxmox backups. And I think the main topic is probably gonna be the Proxmox backup server which I did a video on but you don't need the Proxmox backup server to backup Proxmox VMs. You just need a place to put them. You can have an NFS mount, Samba mount which I haven't used for this purpose but NFS is fine. So you have an endpoint somewhere to send the backup files. You could create a backup job per VM. You could create it per server if you'd like basically put it on a schedule and then send your backups to somewhere such as TrueNAS. And I like that because TrueNAS has versioning built in so I could have it take snapshots regularly of the backup storage. So even though let's say I have like four weeks of backups in Proxmox then I have more than that because I also have snapshots in TrueNAS of that volume containing those backups. And I could probably go back a couple of months which is pretty cool. So that's a super high level of how mine is set up. Before we go into too many details is there anything I missed? I think that's for a quick summary since the stage pretty well. Yeah, I think we kind of get it here. I mean, if you didn't know if you've never heard the word Proxmox to use before, we have a whole episode on virtualization I can reference where we talk about different virtualization servers, the pros and cons which I'm a big XTP and G-fan and J is a big fan of Proxmox but there's plenty of other ones out there if you like, you can love other ones, that's fine. There's KVM virtualization, there's VMWare there's plenty of options out there whichever one works for you, a lot of opportunities. Oh yeah, absolutely. So that was just a summary of how I have mine set up. So when you're dealing with backups, I mean VM backups especially, you have to have a lot of space and I always recommend doing file level backups as well even though you have snapshots of the disk, that's great but I like to have file level backups as well and Proxmox backup server which we'll get to kind of marries those things together which is pretty cool. Now on my end, I just finished an entire tutorial series on Proxmox itself and I have this horrible habit I keep saying Proxmox like just Proxmox but what I'm supposed to be saying is Proxmox virtual environment that's the virtualization solution. It's just a weird thing where you just habitually shorten the name and you expect everybody to know what the heck you're talking about. Well, the way they do it is a little because isn't there a Proxmox mail server too? I've never looked at it, isn't that another product? They have Proxmox mail and it says Proxmox VE for virtualization environment and then Proxmox backup and each one of these are technically separate products correct? Correct, 100% correct. So I could say PBS for short although I don't like doing that because that PBS to me is that TV channel that has all the educational programs on that I like a lot but Proxmox backup server that's a separate product. So in my case, I'm usually saying Proxmox when I mean Proxmox VE when I shorten it like that but I have a whole series of like, I think 16 videos and a bonus video that you could check out on my channel. So I'm not gonna go too into detail about what Proxmox is VE specifically what that is because we've already talked about it plus I have the video series so I think everyone's covered when it comes to that. So going back to the backups we have several different modes now there's a stop mode there's a suspend mode and a snapshot mode and my understanding is that the I'm trying to think like the stop mode is gonna give you the best consistency because what this that's actually what this pertains to if your VM is off then you're gonna get a pretty good backup because you don't have to worry about any files and use or anything like that. So if you can do that, it's the best. Now when it comes to HomeLab we usually can because we sleep sometimes at least when we're not trying to figure out this crazy problem that's been bugging us for the last two weeks and we can't stop thinking about it but normal situations we actually sleep and while we're sleeping it's pretty easy to have your VMs just go into stop mode for the backup it's the best thing you can do but if uptime is important to you and you really don't want your VMs to be down then that's really not an option and you choose one of the other modes. So there's a basically hybrid approach there where it just pauses it or maybe it tries to do it live different modes, different types of backups but you choose which one works best for you but if you don't care about being down I would just go a stop mode because you'll always get the best backups you could get in that situation and then you just have to worry about where you're sending your backups to and we've talked about TrueNAS a lot we've talked about Synology it really doesn't matter you could have a Linux server in your closet that's running NFS and you could send your backups there if you want to I always recommend offsite that's another topic altogether I think everybody has heard me recommend offsite backups at least a hundred times I've probably recommended a hundred more times within the next 30 episodes but just have to get that out there so you could basically schedule the backups any way you want there's a backup section in Proxmox VE so you could choose when you want it done what the mode is you want it to use which VMs are going to be a part of which schedule or you could just choose all which is what I do I just have one schedule it's I think it's like two in the morning if I'm not mistaken and it just backs up everything so you could have like one server backup one time and then another server backup another time if you have a cluster or just have it all in one go I like to choose all because I don't have to worry about oh I just created this VM did I add it to the list of servers to backup I don't remember well if I choose all it's just gonna back up everything so I never have to really worry about that so once you have a good backup system going you're fine and also you have to worry about like when to age out the snapshots if you take snapshots on your NAS but that's again another story so that's a high level of how the backup works there's a backup section you choose when it happens the mode which VMs are a part of that and you also choose where to send the backup to your NFS share, Samba share or whatever it is you happen to have and that's the Proxmox VE side of things before we get to the Proxmox backup server side of things it's kind of interesting because it sounds like now do you run the Proxmox backup as a VM in the Proxmox VE system or you run it as a separate physical box or either one's viable the Proxmox backup server component yeah so that one I mean that's the thing right we could always run these things in a really cool way right I mean I've seen so many cool different really I mean awesome things that people have been doing whereas they you know run a VM and I didn't even think that you could run it as a VM you can run it as a VM but even if you couldn't somebody would find a way to do it because that's our audience we're clever so and I could if I was to say no you cannot run that as a VM and you should never do that then someone's gonna say well I'll show you I'm gonna do that right now and it's gonna be the most awesome VM ever just you wait and see so but you know it really doesn't matter because it's an ISO image just like any other Linux server so now we're talking about the Proxmox backup server the separate component here now one thing I do want to mention before I get to that is what I discovered when I looked at it recently because I did a video about it in-depth video about it so I'm not gonna go terribly in-depth right now because it's kind of it's really hard to give you guys a you know a vocal description of all these things without showing you and pointing to different things so that's a little one of the reasons why I'm I'm struggling here but that's just kind of the nature we're gonna keep this as kind of an overview but I just wanted that clarification like where does this device live or you know do we build on a physical machine outside of our Proxmox we have our Proxmox single or multi-cluster of hosts and then where does this this particular component live that's all that makes sure I'm clear on oh no worries yeah I just wanted to you know mention that so we'll get to that definitely but as an aside one of the first things I discovered that I didn't know was that you don't need Proxmox Virtual Environment use Proxmox Backup Server when I first heard of it you know before I actually read about it before I learned about it I'm like well that's cool that must be just getting the backup component of Proxmox VE but putting it in a separate place okay that sounds like a good thing to do but what I found out is that even if you don't use Proxmox Virtual Environment at all there still might be some value in Proxmox Backup Server anyway because backing up Proxmox VE is not all it can do so I just wanted to get that out there in case someone is like well this episode doesn't apply to me because I don't use Proxmox VE so why would I want to use Proxmox Backup Server I can't because I'm not running Proxmox VE well actually you can we'll get to that in a moment now going into the installation side of things so can you install in a VM yes absolutely you can do that I'm sure it'll be the best VM ever but I wouldn't do that if you have the infrastructure that can support that that's great but if you think about I think the bigger question is where do you send your backups to so if you are running Proxmox Backup Server as a VM okay and that VM is running on your NAS that worries me a little bit because you're sending essentially the backups to itself I think it's great to have a different endpoint like a NAS or something like that and again you can just do a desktop out of your closet just have a different place to send the backups to but Proxmox Backup Server is an ISO image it's a Debian Linux installation you install it and you'll get a web console basically the installer is just like just like Proxmox VE if you've ever used that installer before really simple you put in the name of the server the time zone where you want the storage like your local storage for the OS it reboots you get a command prompt that just says go to this URL HTTP and then I forgot the port number but gives you the IP address you log in and then you can start adding your backup destinations right there in the web console and it's a great web console everything's written in Rust that's my understanding so it's really fast it works really well and the interface is pretty easy to use the only thing that confused me I think was the term remote at first because when I first saw that I'm like oh remote must be where I'm sending the data files to where like I'm mounting a remote NFS or Samba share but it's not that actually remote is another Proxmox backup server so that way you could actually sync one backup server to another for redundancy that's what remote pertains to which I didn't get a chance to use because I only had the one server the other thing I didn't get a chance to use which it does feature is support for tape backup I don't have a tape backup system here so I was unable to test that I kind of wish I could have for all time's sake you know I have a single client it's looking at just the volume of data that they have to purchase more servers they have an across redundant true NAS servers but they wanted to also have tape archival just so they have something there but yeah it's pretty wild because tapes are still used I mean it's still in for their use cases still practical for those really I say archaic if you look at the old ones but if you look at the new modern tape systems they hold quite a bit of data and it's impressive that reminds me actually and I don't think the audience will disagree but we might want to talk offline about doing an episode about long term archival because each medium has a different shelf life and I think that's a pretty important topic to go over but I'm reminded because of tape backup I'm not gonna go down that rabbit hole right now let us know if you want us to talk about that I was thinking go for a whole old technology episode might be fun too April 1st is gonna be here before you know it we could be rocking a TRS-80 and having some of our TRS-80 and we could have like CRTs in the background I could just decorate the office with old 8-bit technology it sounds okay we have a topic if we dive down this rabbit hole yeah I talk about old computers and I love it anyway so back to Proxmox Backup Server so you have it installed and well actually before I go on I can't believe I didn't mention the system requirements so the system requirements are their recommendations let's be honest it depends on how much you're storing and things like that if you're using it for evaluation this is straight from their documentation I kind of wonder if evaluation means home lab but I know we're not using things for evaluation we actually use things to use things but we're often just one user so they recommend two gigs of RAM and eight gigs of hard drive space which I assume we all have by now two cores it needs to be installed on a 64-bit CPU so there's that obviously it says you need a network card of course how else are you going to communicate with it you need that so that kind of goes without saying now when you look at the recommended requirements they start to recommend four gigs of RAM and four cores and how much hard drive space so they want a gig per terabyte which is probably they're referring to ZFS support if I had to guess and they also recommend that you use SSDs which you know that's really expensive I mean I would love to have SSDs and NVMe storage on everything even like my true NAS server with eight terabytes of space but I can't afford that and a lot of people can't afford that much but if you can get SSDs I mean that goes without saying of course you would I mean everyone in home lab goes with an SSD if they can but that's what they recommend if you can do it it'll still work fine on spinning rust if that's what you have they always say use what you have try it out worst case scenario after you install it if it runs too slow you just remove it and then use something else so just go ahead and give it a shot Yeah most of the home lab is running on whatever you have whatever deals you found at a recycling center or eBay I think that's why Ceph is such a huge topic because people have unlike systems and unlike hard drives the most in home labs so I think Ceph storage is probably the best benefit for most people to pull it all together and make one big server I'm not going to remind you though but we have storage That's awesome I'm kind of reminded of serial experiments Lane if anyone's an anime fan where she has like all these computer monitors and servers in her room but anyway so once you have it installed then okay what can you do with it so obviously the first thing is backing up Proxmox virtual environment which of course I mean that goes without saying it's a product by Proxmox it kind of fits in very well with the rest of the portfolio although I can't confirm mail server because I haven't used it but it integrates very well with Proxmox backup server there is an option for Proxmox backup server when you create a endpoint and VE for where to send backups to there's actually dedicated options so you choose Proxmox backup server what the address is your IP address or domain name whatever it is you have attached to it and you could just go ahead and send your backups to it which is great but I mentioned earlier that you don't have to use Proxmox virtual environment to use Proxmox backup server but there is one downside I'll get to because that sounds great it is but it's not you could do file level backups too now what that means is you have a Debian system and Ubuntu system or any distribution that's based on Debian or Ubuntu you can install a backup client and what you could do with that backup client is you can you could basically do what's essentially in our sync of the whole file system I mean I'm oversimplifying it it's much more than that but if you think about getting a tar ball of your entire file system I think most of us have tried that if you haven't tried that definitely try it it's very unique a rabbit hole to go down into you could actually take a manual tar ball snapshot of your entire file system but what it's doing is it's grabbing everything on your server's disk and it's sending it over to the Proxmox backup server it does incrementals it does deduplication so you don't have to worry about it using excessive space on the side of the Proxmox backup server you just install the repository for the client on your Debian or Ubuntu system you log in or cache the credentials there's different ways that you could do it and if you choose to encrypt your backups are encrypted at the source not in transit not at the destination it's encrypted before it leaves the server you are backing up so if I back up my Debian web server to it it's going to encrypt it on the web server and then send the encrypted blob over to Proxmox backup server so that's the way I like it I don't like things to be encrypted after the fact I like things to be encrypted before they transmit the wire and that's exactly what it does so you have this file level backup or a Proxmox VE virtual machine backup or a Proxmox VE container backup you could actually restore individual files regardless so if you have a server and you totally botched your Apache config and you just want that one file you don't want to restore the entire server just for that one file you could pull that one file you can mount the backup as a local file system and then grab the file that way you could just go right in the web browser and go through the files there and see them right in the GUI so the only downside to that is that the layout looks a little bit different depending on if it's a container file level virtual environment backup it puts the file backup button in a different place but that's just a very minor quirk now the big downside that I have here is notice that I said Debian or Ubuntu-based distribution what if you're running Fedora or a Red Hat system or CentOS or OpenSUSA my understanding is that you could still use Proxmox backup server for a file level backup via the API that it has but I don't know of any clients that were made for those other distributions which means you gotta kind of be in the Debian or Ubuntu camp for this to really be effective again I'm not saying you can't use other distributions I think when it comes to HomeLab whether or not you can do something is exactly equal to how determined you are to do that thing because we'll still find a way to do it even if we can't do it normally but with a backup solution I don't really like to go through that much trouble to force it to do something but if you're good at hooking into APIs and writing scripts and things like that you should have no problem with this whatsoever but if you are running mostly CentOS or Red Hat based servers you'll probably have a little bit of an onboarding issue trying to get this all on there unless those servers are running directly in Proxmox virtual environment because you don't need a backup client on your VMs or containers you only need the client if you're doing a file level backup on a system that's not in virtual environments that's the distinction. No quick question here I like that it does the encryption at the source for all the file level backups but it doesn't exactly the same thing when it's backing up VM so when it's backing up the raw VM out of a Proxmox VE system it does do encryption at the source for that as well. You know what that's a good question I can't believe I forgot to look into that during the video that's kind of embarrassing but I don't know I would like to assume that it does but assumptions are not always correct but I would certainly hope so but I didn't go explore the options for that but the file level backups I did and I really like the way it works you could set up environment variables for everything or put your credentials in a file there's different ways that you can do it and I think as long as you're careful and you don't expose the credentials obviously you should never do that then it's a very powerful system because even if it encrypts it locally but you expose the secrets then it may as well not have been because then at that point it's blown wide open and they have a backup group system it's a naming scheme it's weird but backup group naming scheme it's a naming scheme for backups called the backup group which has the backup ID or the ID of the system that you're backing up the type that it is VM I think a CT for container I forgot what it was for file so there's three different types of backups but in the GUI they make it really easy especially if you have Proxmox virtual environment and you have a non Proxmox VE machines you're doing a file level backup on or you could even just do file level backups on the VMs if you really want to go crazy but you'll know where the backup came from the system it belongs to and you'll have that information right in the name so it's kind of cool how it sorts it that way so that way if you sort it by name oh it's that virtual machine it's this type of backup and from there it's pretty easy to drill down and find the file that you're looking for so I actually did a whole video on it like I mentioned check it out it goes into more detail but what I have been planning on doing is that video I set up Proxmox backup server on one of my servers is actually the one you gave me and donated to the studio and I think I'm just going to actually wipe it reload it and put Proxmox backup server on it and use it full time because I actually like it that much it looks pretty interesting I didn't realize I purposely didn't watch your video before coming in to do this podcast because I didn't realize it did more than just backup Proxmox I almost like I think a lot of people might just pass it off because of that reason yeah I mean you're probably not alone on that so I think it's a great solution if you're using a Debian or Ubuntu based distribution for your Linux instances then you could just go ahead and back it up to that system and it's totally fine now it's free to download there is like this enterprise repository that's completely optional that you could I always recommend you support projects if you have the money to do that don't force yourself to donate money if you can afford to but if Proxmox backup server is saving you money maybe give them some of that money and you get that enterprise repository but you could just use it without that it's the same as Proxmox VE you get more enterprise quality packages and I think they're a little bit more stable I think sometimes it could be a little bit more bleeding edge the other way but I've never seen a problem either way so it usually works just fine and I usually support them just because you know well I am a business to be fair and I am using it but even if I wasn't I probably would like to throw some money over there to I think it was like 70 US dollars for a Proxmox license for the lowest tier if you're a business you could buy support and things like that but I think it's a pretty decent system to look into so the only time I think twice about it is if you're running something other than Debian or Ubuntu for your local systems but even then if you want a good exercise at writing scripts to hook into an API you could probably do that or maybe somebody on GitHub fork the backup client to your distribution which would be even better I didn't look but I assume someone out there probably did that if you there's always someone writing something like that there's probably ways to make it work if it works in one Linux distro it's just a matter of determination to get it to work in the other distros and the Arch user repository is a good example of that I'll bet it's in there I didn't look I'll bet you it's in the AUR it's usually in the AUR because they have everything with the kitchen sink they probably do have the kitchen sink in there too yeah pretty much everything so it's available there's other backup solutions to that we should probably look into in the future I think duplicati comes to mind and what's the other one oh boy there's backup which Deja do another one that I've never used but a few people have asked me about is like backup PC there's there's a few different ones out there and we're kind of narrowing it down to the open source ones I know someone's going to be throwing out there it's already in the comments a bunch of times like Veeam because they have a free version my problem is when these companies have free versions it kind of dates the podcast because you'll go but Tom an episode whatever number you said there was a free version and they discontinued it because lots of companies do freemium until they go that's not something we feel like doing anymore because we've got a big enough name in the market that we don't feel like offering a free product so I'm always wary of the offerings that some company has a covering that on there and you know people ask you why I don't do more videos on something like Veeam because it's popular they have an entire marketing team they're a big company with lots of money if they want to sponsor me that's a whole different topic but there's not it's not even something I use so we try to bring awareness to different open source projects out there open source even if they have a business plan around it such as XCPNG which is an open source you can use it for free by the way you can support the project by buying licenses only if you want to but not necessary for usage of the product those kind of products are ones that more align with what me and Jay like to use or what we cover would you agree that Veeam is more often used in the enterprise I mean that's probably obvious but do you think there's a use case for Veeam in a non-enterprise home lab environment I haven't tried personally I don't know enough about it other than it seems to be you know because I attend my other day job so to speak running an IT services company means I see ads for Veeam they're advertising in the enterprise service space that's just where they know their market issues the people that use it seem to be happy I've got nothing bad to say about the product but it's one more closed source backup product that competes with many other ones out there there's other ones that we have used by the way it's not that I'm opposed to all backup systems videos I'll be doing on my channel about the MSP tooling that we're using and of course that does include backups that are you know part of cloud backups that are completely proprietary it's just the ones we've chose to use I can't cover them all as much as I want to do due diligence and test them all there are only so many hours in a day I can't possibly test every single system that's out there yeah that's the thing we would love to if we could we would have like 10,000 videos on our channel and everything you could possibly think of we would love to do it if like there's 48 hours in a day rather than 24 and you know 15 days in a week I don't know but yeah so beam it's one of those things where when we I love it when people recommend something for us to go over sometimes I have to ask the question though if someone's looking at beam like asking us to do a video on it is that that they like it for their homelab or are they using it at work and they want to use it in their homelab so they can learn it and do their job better which is a completely valid use case and that's probably why homelabs came to be that in Plex let's be honest but that being said I don't know I mean I always kind of wonder if there's a fit for it but beam yeah like you said I haven't looked into it either but there's definitely other backup solutions we should probably look into ROXMux backup server is just one of those it's like I mentioned a perfect fit if you're running Debian or Ubuntu and you have an extra box that meets the minimum minimum requirements or if you're feeling lucky just try it anyway and maybe it'll be a good backup system for you and even if it's not we will eventually I'm sure have episodes and other backup systems out there there's no shortage of topics in this space to go over and we will do a video just because we covered this part we may either do a dedicated XCPNG video or one dedicated to XCPNG backups that's on our list that we threw together because we covered ROXMux backups but I wrongly assumed ROXMux was only for doing ROXMux VE backups but XCPNG backups are exclusively for backing up XCPNG so that's maybe I can probably roll it all into one episode where we cover just we'll look at exactly how to do it because it's not going to be as visual but these are much like Jay has ROXMux on his channel I have a series of in-depth videos on ROXMux or sorry XCPNG on my channel so I can do a video where we cover all of that topic that's on our to-do list as well so yeah we have literally a to-do list we have a lot of things on there and I have some things I'll be adding just as a spoiler I have the Turing Pi 2 in the studio I'm checking it out so I'll be doing a video on that I'm going to be checking out Seth in a couple of weeks so there's going to be some traction on that there's a lot of stuff coming and most of those things will probably be at the beginning of the year let's be honest because this month is going to be sporadic but lots of really awesome topics and just to close out the backup server side of things again just try it out if it matters I mean I like the fact that you have if you have ROXMux VE you can use the same system for virtual machine container backups and also all your other machines as well all in one place assuming you're running WNB on those other places I think that's a good fit for a lot of people but if it's not a good fit for you just well we'll be covering other systems so you'll find yours absolutely so thank you for joining us it's been fun and as always had our feedback for and leave us some links leave some comments down below here I did leave that video is already in the comments description so description of this video you'll find the full tutorial on ROXMux backup that Jay put together and thanks see you guys next time thanks for listening