 Well, hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of Dr. Jill Live. As you know, you can find me on YouTube, iTunes or anywhere you watch or listen to your podcast. Please do stop by, leave a review or subscribe on YouTube so you can stay ahead of any cup coming episodes. Today I have a wonderful, respected colleague and a repeat guest. If you missed our episode, we have another episode, episode 101 on the podcast. You can go listen to that. But today, I'm just super excited to come back and talk to Dr. Frank Lippmann, who's here with me from the East Coast, and you're in New York City. Is that correct, Dr. Lippmann? Well, actually, I'm in Westchester at the moment, but yeah, my practice is New York City. Yeah. Excellent. So let me introduce you and then we will dive right in. Dr. Lippmann recognized as a pioneer of integrative and functional medicine, or what he calls good medicine, much better term. Dr. Frank Lippmann is the founder of 1111 Wellness Center and Chief Medical Officer at the well, both in New York City. As a physician for 40 years, submission has been to provide his patients with access to every tool possible to optimize their health. He uses genetic testing, comprehensive blood testing, biomarkers, information from wearables, where indicated, and his vast clinical experience to create personalized plans for his patients to fill their best, maximize their performance and help them to age well. He's also a New York Times bestselling author, having written several books on health, including the new rules of aging well, how to be well, the new health rules, and better sleep and better you. And he is chock full of information. And I was just asking him before we got on here, which book of the many, many books we could talk about. He's at any of them. So we're going to kind of just flow naturally with the conversation. I love to start with story. And for those who didn't hear your first episode, tell us just a little bit about how you got into medicine and how you got into the more holistic minded type of medicine. Right. So I got into medicine in, I went to medical school, basically. I grew up in South Africa. And in the, I was born in 1954. So I grew up in the 60s, 70s in South Africa. And I went to medical school because that's what the smart kids did. That's what my brother did. I came from a medical family. I didn't really think about it. It was just one of those things. I did well at school. I went to medical school. I had no, it wasn't something I thought about. And it was only at medical school that I started hating it and realizing that maybe this wasn't the right thing. Although as I progressed more and I didn't do very well at medical school, I was too much of a party boy and not really taking much interest in it. I started getting interested in medicine actually towards the end when I started doing more clinical work. And I was lucky in South Africa to be exposed to, you know, during apartheid. So there was white hospitals and black hospitals. Everything was separated and I was always intrigued by black culture. And I happened to work a lot at the black hospitals and I was exposed to traditional healers, some Gormas. So I started enjoying medicine when it started becoming clinical and I was doing rotations in the hospitals and seeing, you know, sick people get better. And then I was lucky to be exposed to these non-traditional healers. But soon after I finished my training, I started becoming sort of not disillusioned but very aware that my training was limited. Because like in American medicine, we get trained in crisis care and acute medicine. So it was wonderful when I was in the hospital and we are treating acute heart attacks and asthma and acute infections and heart disease. And then when I left the hospital and I worked either in the bush, actually the bush was also good for acute care. But then I worked in a private practice and I wasn't able to help patients. People were coming in, they were tired and they couldn't poop and they had headaches and I didn't really have any tools to treat them. So I started getting a little bit disillusioned. And I was lucky enough to not only be exposed to the some Gormas who I sometimes saw would help people we couldn't help, but they happened to be an acupuncturist in Johannesburg and some homeopaths. And I was working at a private practice, a general practice which was taken care of the sort of hipsters and the artsy community of Johannesburg. And they were coming in and they were saying, well, I went to the homeopath and I got better. I went to the acupuncturist and I got better. I started realizing that the patients that we weren't helping with Western medicine or I couldn't help with Western medicine. We're actually getting help with these alternatives. So I started questioning and realizing that there must be other ways. And then my wife and I emigrated to the United States in 1984 because we didn't want to live under apartheid. And I got a job in internal medicine in the South Bronx because that was a shortage area and American doctors didn't want to work there. So they sponsored me for a green card because it's a pretty rough area. In 1984, the South Bronx was full of heroin and crack addicts. So I happened to get into Lincoln Hospital. They gave me sponsored me for a green card and very soon, you know, a couple of weeks after I started, I once again was disillusioned because with American medicine, no one talked to people. It was all about tests and blood tests and x-rays and EKGs and then you need to read up what was going on and present to the professors. So it wasn't what I thought I wanted to do in medicine. And there happened to be an acupuncture clinic doing detox, acupuncture detox for heroin and crack addicts in the South Bronx actually attached to the hospital. So I went to check it out and long story short, I fell in love with acupuncture. I started spending time during my residency doing internal medicine, going to the acupuncture clinic. And once again, I was just pretty obvious. Western medicine was great at acute care and crisis care and then I was going to the acupuncture clinic and they were helping the patients that we couldn't help who were tired and had headaches and back pain. So I realized in 1984-1985 that the future of medicine would be some combination of Western medicine for crisis care and Chinese medicine for treating chronic patients. And that was the beginning of a journey that I went on studying meditation and acupuncture and nutrition and herbs and you name it. And that's, I don't know how many, 30, 40 years ago. And that's how I evolved. It just happened. There was no, I didn't think about it. I find that so fascinating because our journey, like you said, it's not like you had this intended plan of an exact pathway, but you clearly had a couple keys we know with not only genius, but in moving things forward. I am several, a generation or so behind you, but I feel so passionate too about that changing the way we do medicine because there's some wonderful things about our Western system or our conventional system. Like you said for heart attack or stroke or car accident, but we don't do the best with autoimmune disease or chronic complex illness like obesity or this epidemic of, you know, chronic fatigue and all these things. So, I really, really enjoyed that quality I was going to mention is curiosity, because curiosity was this thing that always said, it sounds like a new story you were like curious what else is out there could there be something else and then you ran into acupuncture and it really changed your framework. And do you think there was first of all, I'm curious to say to know your thoughts and the differences when you went from South Africa to the US was it still pretty similar in the paradigms of medicine. The actual paradigm was similar we got trained in Western medicine and brainwashed to think that this is the only way the difference was, which is a big difference was we didn't have all the money to do all the testing that was done in America. So you really had to take a good history and do a good examination. And that's not something that American doctors got taught or or not something I got taught in in the hospital in America. So we got drummed into us that everything's in the history. So I think that was a big plus for me because to this day, it's always in the history. I spend a lot of time taking a good history because you always pick something up in the history. So I think that was a difference. It was more clinical. It is more about a relationship. The relationship was very important. Less so in America. So I think that was a part of medicine that I liked the relationship and getting to know someone. That's not really that it wasn't anyway it may have changed a bit now. It wasn't that important in those days in Western medicine probably still not. And that was a part of medicine. I really liked the relationship getting to know someone. So that was the difference. But the paradigm per se was the same. I really like that we're talking about this because I went to medical school in the 2000s early 2000s. And I actually saw the same thing where most of my colleagues were looking at apps or talking to the patient. And I think that's really like even on rounds you spend five minutes maybe with a patient and rarely was there a physical exam unless there was an acute finding. So it's interesting to hear you even way back then say this about our medicine because I think it's only gotten worse. And I don't know if you're hearing stories but I hear you know patients that go to the ER nowadays and some of the things that I'm just shocked that you mean they didn't examine you or they didn't. They missed a pulmonary embolism or not you know it's just it's just our culture is really lacking touch and then the pandemic only made it worse. Because everybody got afraid to be close in touch and everything. So I really a little bit nervous about the future of medicine as far as the physical exam skills are not there and the great. Like you said when you sit with someone and you listen carefully so often all the clues are in the history. But you have to have that relationship and that patience and the time and like a seven minute visit isn't going to get you those outcomes. And you know what's sad even worse to you know with the wearables for instance and a lot of the testing I do and I'm all for them you know I'm wearing my CGM and my sleep wearable. I think it's got even worse people there's less touch there's less talking to people because we're just looking at data and I think you know we missing a lot with that and I'm not against believe me I'm obsessed with with all this stuff. I love I love you know what's going on with my CGM. I love looking at my sleep data. I love all this information. But if you lose that that relationship if you lose that that human aspect of medicine I think you're losing a big part and I do think that's happening and that is unfortunate. I've one of the thought on that that front is with acupuncture you're obviously in close contact you're using needles you're using exam skill. Do you how much do you think of the healing takes place just because of the human connection like how are 90% 80% I always used to say I mean, I'm doing I don't do acupuncture anymore since the pandemic I have been acupuncture I'm getting late I'm getting old and lazy. I said acupuncture I did for you know 40 how many years at least 40 years I mean I loved it because it's very intimate and that's something that you don't get so easily. You know if you're not touching and doing that type of thing but you know to answer your question. Yes, most of the time 80% of the time I could tell when someone is going to get better wherever put the needles in you can always tell when you really connect with someone. They're going to get better whatever you do wherever you put the needle so yes I do think it's all about the connection the relationship and sure I think acupuncture is wonderful but it's not the acupuncture it's who's giving you the acupuncture how you connect with them yeah. Energy gosh I love we're talking about this because I really believe like you said that relationship and the trust right so many patients will come and say oh you know I told me talk about it. Well they did these labs I said you're fine and you kind of lose that connection in that trust and that trust is a foundation for that patient starting to make the change so that relationship. And I think that's you know I mean I hate defining it as masculine and feminine or you know but you know patriarchal system or whatever the word you want to use but I do think unfortunately that sort of masculine once again feminine I hate those terms but that masculine way of seeing things for lack of another term is limited you know we really need to soften or be more aware of these other aspects of health because you know when it comes to aging as we all getting older and I think you know part of the aspects of aging that are probably more important than all the aspects that I believe in of being kind to yourself and to others having gratitude. The whole emotional or non tangible aspects of health as important if not more important than the ones that we can measure and that's unfortunately not starting to become a little bit more accepted but that's part of that old school patriarchal medical way of thinking. Actually everybody I just stopped by to let you know that my new book unexpected finding resilience through functional medicine science and faith is now available for order wherever you purchase books. In this book I share my own journey of overcoming life threatening illness and the tools and tips and tricks and hope and resilience I found along the way. This book includes practical advice for things like cancer and Crohn's disease and other autoimmune conditions infections like Lyme or Epstein bar and mold and biotoxin related illness. What I really hope is that as you read this book, you find transformational wisdom for health and healing. If you want to get your own copy stop by read unexpected calm. There you can also collect your free bonuses. So grab your copy today and begin your own transformational journey through functional medicine in finding resilience. I actually love that you're talking about it and kind of using those terms because I've talked a lot about the science and the faith or the belief in something greater and the mask and feminine and I talk about my training. I mean they're like I said early 2000s with it was very driven masculine academic so that the nature of the energy, which isn't bad there's a lot of success that comes in that pathway it's an analytical driven. But what I do is I had this intuitive spirit where I could listen and understand and have a knowing that could be backed by the science and the combination of pulling those together where the magic happens. I had to actually relearn after medical school that I could trust my intuition my gut feeling, because there's actually power. Once we have experience behind us that intuition is really, really strong and it's usually very accurate sometimes more accurate than our analytical mind. Yeah, and I'm not against the analytical part on the left side. I'm very analytic. Right, right. It's not an either. Exactly. So, love this discussion now I one little side note and then we're going to talk about some keys to a happy and healthy life and all the different books you've written that they talk about some of these easy ways where people can access that but I just recently read an article I think was written a while back but your daughter and how she kind of went into this field and talks about her dad as a holistic leader. Well, I just want to acknowledge I think you are one of the leaders and pioneers because you were talking about this way of doing medicine and changing way before there's been kind of a tidal wave. Now my generation and the next generation of doctors are looking for more of an integrated holistic model. But I think you've just been a real leader in this and because you were talking about this and doing this and doing things differently. Well, before I ever came along or anyone else so I just want to acknowledge that because you have been a real leader in the field. Did you feel a lot of pushback in the beginning because I'm sure back in the 80s and 90s it was even harder than it is now to do what you're doing. Yeah, I mean, you know, the lucky thing is I came from South Africa growing up during apartheid so I knew the system was rotten you know you grew up during apartheid you know everyone around you is living this way and you know the system is rotten so for me the medical system was just another system that I didn't really believe in so it wasn't very difficult for me to rebel. I mean that's just part of my personality but you know the other easy thing for me was it was so obvious. It wasn't even you know when you seeing something work and you seeing something not work it was it wasn't even that I had to you know it was just it was too obvious that I couldn't you know mess up on it. And yeah there was pushback but I didn't really care because you know maybe because I was a foreigner. But you know the first time I realized there was pushback was that asked me to be chief medical resident at Lincoln Hospital in my final year partly because I came from South Africa and I used to take a good history and examine people and they wanted me to teach you know the upcoming doctors the same way. So I said yes I'd be a chief medical resident if you let me do three months in psychiatry as my rotating residency and the acupuncture clinic happened to be part of the psychiatry department so they didn't really know that I was spending all this time at the acupuncture clinic. So I thought you know I was seeing these great results at the acupuncture clinic that being chief medical resident when I did my grand round talks I would do it on acupuncture. I thought it was a no brainer people like me they'd respect me and open up their minds. I mean I wasn't doing anything crazy and I was even speaking about acupuncture from a western perspective you know working with this in Europe you know it's getting a message into the nervous system. And first of all most people either left the talk and they always chief medical resident so they normally wouldn't do that. And then afterwards the few professors that really cared about me came up to me in a really nice way they were you know you know Frank what are you doing you're going to be ostracised are you crazy. So yeah there was not pushback but they would try to say are you crazy and then you know I just did my own thing so I didn't really care. So there probably was pushback but it made no difference to me. I was so clear about the future of me it's same as I'm so clear now that you know I'm just going to do what I think is right. Well I just have the deepest admiration because again even in my generation there was a lot of pushback I started an integrative medical club brought acupuncturist, massage therapist, mind body therapist into the medical school and people thought I was crazy. You know what happens though and I'm sure you've seen this is now my colleagues and medical school classmates will call me everyone's like hey I have a husband knows you know this disorder. Because they know that there's a limit everyone ever been in medicine trained in medicine finds at some point there's a limitation but anything right and that's usually the the opening point for them to say maybe there's something else could but I just have to say I'm amazed at your persistence and ability just to kind of go against the flow because you really made inroads. So proud of that acupuncture what kinds of things did you see of your career that that it was best suited for I mean you could do I know you could treat anyone and probably have great success but what types of conditions worked best for that type of therapy. Right I found acupuncture gen if I look at it as a big picture generally much better for releasing or letting go of things as opposed to building up you know usually when when someone's depleted or you want to build them up you need nutrition you need herbs but when someone's got pain and tension acupuncture can be fantastic. Hormonal balance it's often incredibly helpful for you know whether it's menopause or other hormonal problems it's really can be helpful. It was amazing for side effects of chemotherapy. I mean the weirdest things it was helpful. I mean my problem I have with acupuncture is you need to go to someone a lot you know I mean it's not like a once off. You can't go to someone and you know see them a couple of months later you really need frequent treatments usually it's very rare that you can do something in one or two treatments which was nice in the beginning because you got to know someone so it was wonderful for a doctor patient relationship but now I'm sort of you know as I've evolved or grown older so I like the idea of you know educating people and like teaching them how to take care of themselves so they don't need you as an acupuncturist they tend to need you. Yes that was the part that sort of never really appealed to me although I did like seeing people often and you get to know people and you get very close to people so amazing that answered your question that's perfect. So the topic of our talk was that some of the keys to happy and healthy life and then you've written many books and have all these wonderful I love how you just put it in a very clear easy. And it's not like I mean we can take supplements we can do expensive things but the things that you bring out in your books are simple and accessible to everyone and I love that. The one we're talking about now the how to be well six keys to happy and healthy life talks about eat sleep move protect unwind and connect to talk about each of those just briefly as far as a roadmap. Sure. Sure. So my philosophy has always been because, and I think we know once again, that's probably because I came from South Africa and I was brought up differently and you know life is different and you don't. You just you're not doing expensive tests so you really my whole philosophy has been what are the things that we do on a day what are the ordinary things we do on a daily basis that can help us and my philosophy has always been it's the ordinary things that we do on a daily basis that have an extraordinary effect on our health. I noticed that when I worked in the bush and I've noticed that over the years, you know, people who are kind people have gratitude, you know, you know, we talked about people who are able to forgive all these human aspects are just as important as what supplements you take. So I've always maintained that the more you can do by yourself or teach people to the simple things to do by themselves that, you know, the healthier they're going to be. So all my books are about how do I simplify this information. So when we talk about each there is no one right diet and my my philosophy on on food and diet has evolved so often. I mean, we won't even go there. So how stupid I've been in the past, you know, being attached to dogma. So what I'll say about diet, I mean, there's no one right diet, you know, different people do, you know, well on different diets. I mean, I was eating, you know, I was a vegetarian or pescatarian and I became pre diabetic. I then, you know, went on a paleo diet and eating a lot of saturated fat and realized from, you know, I tested my genes and I was Apple E34 and realize saturated fats wasn't right for me. So, you know, I evolved and my philosophy involved to a large extent. But the underlying philosophy is stay the same is no one right diet for everyone. Some people do really well on a vegetarian diet, a Mediterranean diet, a paleo diet, a keto diet. So everyone is different. And I think the genetic testing to a large extent can help and how you respond to diets can help. So the eat has always been, you know, practical information. I mean, it's so basic now, you know, sugar is the devil as little sugar as possible. Anything that turns into sugar, you know, try it as, you know, clean as possible. So if you are going to, I'm not against animal protein, but if you are going to eat animal protein, you know, try it clean animal protein, not the factory farms stuff that's injected with hormones and chemicals, etc. So, I mean, your audience knows about it to a large extent. It's pretty simple. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't know. I just do think I do feel because I was dogmatic for years, you know, saturated fat is right for some people and wrong for other people. The idea that saturated fat is not a problem for everyone is bullshit. I believe that and I'm suffering the consequences of that. So I'm not saying it's a problem for everyone, but for some people it is, you know, similarly with whether it's animal protein or vegan diet is definitely not right for a lot of people. But you've got to find your way. So that's all I'd say about eat. There is no one right. Sleep. Sleep. You know, sleep. I wrote a book on sleep because one of my patients happened to be the founder of Casper and they asked me to be on their board of directors and so I started exploring sleep. And I realized that no, why aren't we talking enough about sleep? I wasn't either. So sort of I got into sleep because of that. And you know, sleep, we can go on and on. I mean, sleep is when your body recovers rejuvenation. You know, everyone needs to sleep. You don't have to pay for sleep and sleep is such a great healing tools and we don't take it seriously enough. And then relax. You know, I'm a type A personality. I'm, you know, I tend to be, you know, hyper as well. I had to, it's taken me years and years and years to learn how to actually calm down my nervous system and meditate. So, you know, we all, I think, not all, but many people to a large extent are, you know, are running on empty and are too stimulated at just the culture we're in. And we don't get taught how to just chill out. And learning tools to actually control that without having to go to the beach or go to the forest, which I think is all great. But actually learning to actually manipulate your own body is, is an unbelievable tool that we should all be taught at school, but we're not. So, you know, a lot of, you know, part of the book is, you know, teaching people breathing exercise, different types of meditation. And realizing that you don't have to sit on a cushion chanting home to meditate. You can knit, you can wash dishes. Learning to be present is what it's all about. So, you know, I talk about that, try and take the sort of the, the, the aspect of fear. You know, people are, when you mentioned the word meditation, they are, I can't meditate. There are lots of little things you can do that will, you know, get you to into that type of space. I think there's more to meditation, but I try to demystify meditation and then protect, protect is what you talk about all the time. You know, I think that's another undervalued or under, it's not understood in Western medicine this, this capacity to, you know, be exposed to so many chemicals and toxins. A lot of people can metabolize them and deal with them, but when they overwhelm your system, that could be a genetic thing that could be just, you know, it could be a gut thing. It could be, you just exposed to many things, but yes, we do have a detoxification system, but when it's overwhelmed, you need to support that. So, protect is, is sort of talking about that mechanism and simplifying that for people. I think the move and everyone needs to know, I mean, exercise is probably the best. And I actually love that you use that word because I've been talking, you know, about Dan Mutner's work and have done a couple of events where I spoke with him on different stages and he's the blue zones guy. And what I love that he talks about in these sentient areas, which are people who live over the largest percentages in the world in these certain areas to people who live 100. And they move, they don't exercise, they don't, they don't, they just do their day-to-day thing, they walk to their tours and they move. And I really love, especially menopausal women like myself, many of us used to do very high cortisol, like high intensity or go to the gym. And that is not always the best thing. And for me, I saw such a profound change in my body when I went to just moving, walking, being with friends, I don't work out anymore. I think that's important because I think I see New York City people over-exercise. Exercise is a stress on the body. Now I'm all for exercise, but if you over-exercise, it's just another stress on the body. And, you know, a lot of people get injured from over-exercising. So yeah, to me, it's more about moving your body. And then, you know, talk about Daniel Butner. I think that the last point or the last section of my book is about connect. Yes, I thought you'd say I'll have that. If you look at what he talks about, it's all, you know, these people have a purpose in life. They have community, they have meaning. That to me is probably the most important thing, you know. And as you get older, that becomes more and more important. You know, for me and I have a grandson, you know, I get more enjoyment just hanging out with him and just being present with him. Then, you know, I can do that all day. I mean, I love it. It burns me out. It's tiring because it's got too much energy. But you get so much, there's so much you get from these type of relationships and things like that, that I think once we get older, you realize are more and more important. So I think Dan Butner had it wrong. I mean, I think that's, he definitely, you know, it's an interesting book. I think there's a lot of wisdom there. Yeah. Thanks for sharing it. Let's, like I said, it's so, and again, this was before you've maybe studied this engineering, but your book is right alongside with the data that he shows. So it's actually very, very science-based, the movement, the connection, the believing in a higher purpose. And I love the sleep. That's my superpower. I always say, if all those fails, I can do it all. And it's what a great practical discussion. Speaking of your grandson and future generations, what practical advice would you leave? I feel like our younger generations are really struggling with purpose and meaning and health and just so many things. I think it's harder life than it ever was even for you and I. What tip for staying healthy and well, would you leave for the younger generation? Right. Unfortunately, I have to agree. I think it's harder to be healthy in this day and age. I mean, I'm seeing so many young women in particular, but meant to a woman with, you know, you talked about autoimmune diseases. So I think, you know, our generation of doctors used too many antibiotics. I think that's probably one of the biggest problems. And they've screwed up, you know, this whole generation, microbiomes. And now we left with so many autoimmune diseases. So, you know, what can I say? I think, you know, you just got to pay more attention than we did when we were younger to what you put into your body. I think, you know, the problem I'm seeing today, which we saw maybe 20 years ago, but has gotten worse, this ambition to get ahead and to achieve and not take these non-tangible aspects of our health that seriously. I think people need to pay attention to relationships, to family, to being happy. And you know, it's what's interesting. I'm seeing two sides. I'm seeing a lot of young people realizing that they don't want to go into the finance realm, they don't want to work their butts off. They are paying more attention to sort of being happy and having a life that's more meaningful to them. And then there's, you know, it's sort of almost two extremes. And then the other extreme that want to make a lot of money, want to live in a big house. And, you know, it's very difficult to convince people that, you know, as you get older, those things don't become as meaningful because when you're younger and you're seeing your friends, you know, making a lot of money and doing things you think you want and there's social media and you see people on Instagram and things doing, you know, there's what do they call it, FOMO? You're missing out. I think, you know, you've got to, yeah, it's hard. You've got to get grounded and realize, and it's hard for young people to get it, that those things aren't as important. But I do think it's up to us parents, you know, you know, I see how my daughters bring up a grandson, which is great, you know, just to really instill important values in these kids and not to get caught up in all the bullshit that most of us get caught up with. And it's, I think America is hard. It's easier in other places. They're not as caught up with, but, you know, you just got to work harder. I don't know what the answer is. I'm sort of, you know, sort of trying to work out how to sort of get a message across in a way that's not, you know, sort of, yes, yes, you know, you know, you don't want to sound like the grandfather or the father like. Oh, but I get it. And I think everything that is true. Dr. Lemon, thank you for being such a trailblazer in our field and leading the way for people like me to follow and to and just thank you for taking the baton and like taking it to a whole nother level. So it's great what you're doing and sort of, yeah, I love what you're doing. So I think it's fantastic. So thank you for everything that you do. You are so welcome. And thanks again for taking the precious time out of your day to day to spend with us. I appreciate it. Thanks, Joe. Always great to speak to you too. Bye bye.