 Welcome to the 21 convention Orlando, Florida 2017. This is Socrates, I'm your guest host for 21 Studios Radio. This is the legend and the man Ross Jeffries. Pleasure to be here and I really appreciate the opportunity to be one of the speakers. Fantastic. I was telling you earlier that I actually have a rich man's prom at this point. I actually not only was able to meet you, you're one of the people I was really looking forward to meet, but I'm limited to about 30 minutes of interview time. Thank you, you're very kind. Thank you. Let's start off with your origin story. Let's talk about that so people, our viewers can kind of understand some of that. Very quickly because there's other things I want to move on to. I came from a background where I had no role models about how to deal with women. God bless my father and his memory beat for a blessing as we say in the Jewish faith. But he had no clue about how to handle women and he was gone most of the time working. He wasn't gambling or carousing. He worked three jobs to put food on the table because my mother didn't work. What I did observe was a terrible marriage where they were constantly attacking each other. He would do his best to embarrass her because she was not sexual with him. He'd say in front of a company, oh, I don't get any. And then as I grew I was in my eyes at least horribly ugly. I'm 6'2", about 210, a little bit of a belly. I was 6'2", 125 pounds in high school and I was so ashamed of my body. I would tape, I would put paper on the mirrors so I wouldn't have to look at myself when I got out of the shower. I would compare my arms size to the arms of the women around me, the men around me and I would think why would a woman want to be with me? Why would she want to be with an inferior product? I'm not even a man. I would look at my arms and say these aren't the arms of a man. This is not even the body of a human being. I had terrible shame. And that was my basic background. All through high school, all through except college, the very end of college. And I went, I lost my virginity at 22. I went five years without even being touched by a woman. I'm not talking about getting laid or not getting kissed. I didn't even... Any human contact. No human contact. You have to imagine what that hell is. And most guys I think can't relate to that. No, no. They cannot. And women cannot relate to it. I tell them this and they say you're kidding. So I was determined. I remember one day visualizing myself in a dark hole, miles and miles beneath the earth in a ladder and climbing out one rung at a time. And I remember thinking one day I will get out of this and when I get out of this, I will go back and take any guy who's in that hole and get him out. I remember thinking that way before I ever found the solution to the problem. And then I stumbled onto NLP, Neurolinguistic Program. And that provided me a way not just to see the light at the end of the tunnel, but to remove the tunnel completely. Just to stop you real quick. This is before the internet. This is before YouTube. This is before any video contact. What was the format? There's a book called How to Get the Women You Desire into Bed. We did it on, literally, we took it to Kinko's copies, 8.5 by 11. I would put it on the kitchen table. My mother would staple the cardboard covers, stuff it into envelopes. I would take them to the post office. I got on a lot of TV talk shows. I knew how to bait. There is a magazine called Radio TV Interview Report. It was the Bible of every TV and radio talk show. And so I wrote an ad. I took my last $450. I wrote a full page ad. Women Hate Nice Guys says, sex book author. Interview the man who turns wimps and geeks into supercharged macho studs. See, I had that talent. Yeah, you really did. I mean, this is remarkable. This is where I'm saying it's a man. When we talk, and I don't mean this in a derogatory part, the grandfather of the community, everything. This is before the community. This is before all these things. People would send orders to a P.L. box. And when I did, I would send them snail mail. Yeah, I'd rather say snail mail catalogs. They would send me checks. It was crazy. And the thing is, I learned copywriting from my mentor, Gary Halbert. People think, well, Richard Bandler is your teacher and your mentor. He's the father of NLP. But every penny I earned, I earned because Gary taught me how to write copy. Gary was from lived in Florida. And Gary said, you know, your students are full of shit. Your stuff is bullshit, but I like you. And he took me under his wing. And the ad I wrote to sell my book that launched my career was the amazing production secrets of a skinny, ugly six-foot geek from Culver City, California, that could get you all the hot, sexy women you ever desire, no matter what your looks, financial status, or age. Boom. And that ad over a course of ten years made me hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars. So that's my origin. So you come from a background in which you imprinted really negative marriage views, relationship views. You had tremendous self-confidence issues. Traumatic. Based on everything. That sort of trauma. And then zero human contact in an age in which you weren't able to gather information, relate to each other, have any of that. I was very isolated. Unbelievable. And then you did something about it. But you know what? I give credit to my mother. Because my mother said, if there isn't an answer, you be the one to go find the answer. So you had a single source of inspiration. And my mother also said, one day I was sassing her. I was like six years old. And she said, if you don't stop it, you'll grow up to be an iconoclast. I said, what's that? She said that someone who goes around kicking over other people's sacred idols and ideas. I said, cool. That's what I'm going to be, Mom. So thank you, Mom. May your memory be for a blessing. I'm going to get the quote too, because I want to remember that. May your memory be for a blessing. It's the one thing that may your memory be a villain. And I'm going to put that in my backpack. I love quotes. That's a Jewish thing. Fantastic. And this is what I'm talking about. The stories and the sheer admiration for the people who are pathfinders for everything else. And all honesty, I came well behind all that. And so you have this kind of this idea of these people as figures and have the ability to actually physically meet. Yeah, well, I also always had a sense of a destiny. Even when I was a little kid, there was a show called The 20th Century hosted by Mike Wallace. And they would profile great men. I thought, one day I'm going to be a great man. And even when I was really lonely working crappy jobs, I remember thinking, this is not what I meant for. I have a destiny. I meant for something bigger. So say that again, because I think that's terribly important. You actually were able to project in the future. I thought I meant for a destiny. You put something out there. I always put it out there. I always believed I had a destiny. And I was meant to be a great man. I was put here for a reason. I really believed that. And what's kept me passionate after 30 years, you saw my talk, did you not? Did I appear to be having fun and be passionate? You were having fun before you even got on stage. One of the fuse. I know I get all worked up. You were just amped up like a race horse. And so what keeps me, why would I stay passionate after 30 years? Why do I have charisma? I think I do. I'm not blowing my own horn. Why do people look at me like, oh yeah. Because I truly believe I'm walking my path. A man who is walking his path, a man who is walking his destiny, is very, very difficult to stop. And I'm stubborn as a mule. I hate quitting. I hate quitting. I hate quitting. I hate quitting. I just will not quit. And that donkey like stubbornness kept me going. I just, I don't like to quit. Quitting is the worst poison I could swallow. I got a pause right here. Do you hear that? Listen to it again. I hate to quit. He hates to quit. And he had a vision. And that transformed your life. Yeah. And look how many other people have been transformed by it. Yeah. I'm sitting across from you. Ah. Now let's get into the red pill. I know. I was just about to say this is the time to drop. All right. Let's drop that bomb. Yeah. What is your opinion of the red pill? I think there's some good stuff in it. First of all, let me tell you what I like. Warning men about how women can be duplicitous and women can be manipulative. Absolutely. And the games that women can play is vital. I was saying this though back in 1988. I said it back in 1988. I said the only time I put a woman on a pedestal is when I can look up her skirt. I warned guys. I said many women are seriously dinged in the head. Don't expect that she's going to love you for who you are. Right. I said that back in 1988 for Christ's sake. So please understand, no one out there think of me as a simp or a white knight. I'm the furthest from that you can get. So I like that and I like... I think hypergamy is very true. That's a fact. It's not argument. No, right. But then what red pill gets into, it gets very reductionist. It takes complex human behavior. Humans are very complex creatures and very nuanced. And it reduces it down to evolutionary psychology and to me human behavior depends on the context you're in and the society that you're in. And it's very, very difficult to isolate it down to, oh well, she left you because you were a beta or a cop. There could be a million different reasons. Maybe the sex was lousy. Maybe you were, who knows. So it tends to reduce things down. And also when you come to the dark triad, this idea of narcissism, psychopathy and Machiavellian, as if that is the essence of what women come from, that to me is self-evidently not true. There's no evidence for it. And I'm going to say his name. When Rolo takes what he teaches and he wraps it in the mantle of science, when he refers to it as arising from evolutionary psychology, he's wrapping himself in the mantle of science. And when you do that, then your standard of evidence that you have to meet rises very high. Hold on just one second. So your standard of evidence rises very, very high. I take great pains. You saw me in my talk three times. I said, I'm not teaching science. It's not true with a capital T. It's only my model. So my standard of proof is much lower. So I would argue first of all, I think evolutionary psychology is a soft science at best and maybe a pseudo-science at worst. But let's grant that it is a science. There's nothing in any evolutionary psychology paper or study or textbook that says that women can't always have dark triad traits and that's the essence of who they are. And I come from an anthropological background and having lived with and dated an anthropologist for 10 years, literally in the Smithsonian. And I've gone back, and this is something Rolo and I actually share. We actually read the white papers and go back and I can see any number of studies where they say it. And I would say that on the dark triad is a human condition. Exactly right. It's human condition. But people don't listen to that. That's in MGTAL. MGTAL people say it's women only. And they wind up proposing a master gender instead of a master race. What I also find is that they don't look to the other side. Women have hypergamy. Absolutely. Men have hypergamy. The same general things. And very similar. Where we're the same, they're very similar. Where we differ, they take sex-based criteria. Right. And that was part of my talk. But what I find disturbing is that they're out to de-pedestalize women. But then they de-ify masculinity. I say they demonize one gender in order to de-ify another. Fantastic. That's how I put it. And so when you, and also when you say things like A-Walt, all women are always like that. Now I know the excuse is going to be, well, we didn't say they always do that. We just say they're like that. But in reality, they're saying they always do that. It's reactionary to not all women are like that. Right. And so they do that as well. Right. And my criticism is that they kind of go to this proverbial rabbit hole, you know, that they go down and they stay there. And so my talk was literally about our biological imperatives, you know, about getting through that. And in all honesty, this is where you and I differ. And I find it fascinating. Go ahead. Tell me. Tell me. I'm very pro-child. I struggled with that. Right. I mean, up to several years ago where I sat down and said, I don't know if this is for me for any number of social reasons, personal reasons, and everything else. I made a choice. You made a choice at a relatively young age because I know your background. Yeah, I don't want to have kids. I'd make a lousy father. Selfishly. No, actually selflessly, because I know I'd make a lousy father. And how's that affecting your life now? Not at all. And how about your viewpoint going forward? Because I think it's fair to talk about it. I have nephews who are the most wonderful young men I've ever met. They are like my best friends, my sons, my brothers. I would always be holding my own children up to their example, never meeting them. But the reason I never wanted kids is, first of all, I thought I would never be able to have the creativity and the creative energy to do what I wanted to do and also pour it into a kid. And so it was a very sympathetic. But I want to talk about this. I'm not done with Red Pill. I'm not done with it yet. I'm not quite there. So this idea of dark triad, you can't find that in any of the evolutionary psychology literature. I would challenge you to find any study that said women. That's Rolo's extrapolation. It's human nature. But it's his deduction. And so when he extrapolates from that, he's taking the science and he's layering his opinion onto the science, but wrapping his opinion into the science. That's where I have a problem. And to be honest, this is what I think the service he does provide. The anthropologists don't take the step forward. You're not allowed politically to take one step forward. If you read the papers, sometimes it's really interesting. Others it's really dry, but the problem is that there's nobody segueing that to popular literature to make it beneficial. But when you segue to popular literature, you take the risk of twisting the science. Absolutely. That's what I think with all due respect to him. That's what I think he does. I have no problem with the measure. That's what I think he does. And finally, the idea of solipsism. The definition is not strictly correct. Solipsism is a term from philosophy. There's a study of philosophy, one of the branches of philosophy is epistemology. It studies how we can know things. And solipsism from that perspective is a form of radical agnosticism in the sense it says the only thing we can know for certain is our own minds. Not that our own mind is the only thing that exists, it's the only thing we can know for certain. Other things could be a projection of our mind. Metaphysically, it means the theory that the only thing that exists is ourselves. And everything else is our creation, the figment of our imagination. And so I think the definition is not properly used. He's taking the definition and giving it a different meaning. And I'm concerned when it came up in one of the speakers, the one we talked about, Nietzsche says, you know, God is dead. God does toad. That we remove religion in the morality base that comes from it. And invariably what comes in, we don't have some other morality structure. Nihilism comes up. The self matters more. We live in an age of extreme narcissism all around. I'll put it to you this way. I said to one of the students at dinner, I said this whole society is revolving around the dark star of narcissism. Absolutely. It's not just women. Drink to that. Dive out of drink. Drink to that. Never better said. I'll take credit for that. It's not just women. It's men. It's everybody. And narcissism is held up, is the ideal, the way you should be. And so I don't think this has got to do with some inherent trait in women or inherent trait. It's what's being programmed into our heads. How can we resist the power of popular American culture? Popular American culture, by the way, is the greatest weapon against radical Islamist fundamentalism that you could have. I would sit down and say it's literally American culture is the epitome of mankind. I mean, we have had centuries of warfare for pop culture. All of it. Oh, you're popping that. Let me tell you what I mean. Yeah. Please clip on it. I visited Israel twice. In Israel, the Palestinians wear Nikes. Israelis wear Nikes. I remember a god-awful video of ISIS executing someone. May they burn in hell for it. I don't believe in hell. But they were wearing, I know that's one of the executions, wearing Adidas. Right. American pop culture is our greatest weapon instead of bombing other radical fundamentalism. No, absolutely. We should break into the radio and beam Britney Spears and drop Adidas. Adidas. I mean, literally carpet bomb it. Yeah, that's what you do. So those are my real problems with red pill. The ultimate red pill to take is the red pill of compassion. And by that I mean to see that we're ultimately in the same boat. That beautiful woman was born wearing the same thing you were. The instant you were born naked. One day something's going to happen. She's going to die. We're subjected to the same gravitational pull, the same atmospheric pressure. And whether someone is frustrating you or giving you what you want, they're humans. They're not demons on the one hand or divas on the other, they're human. And that red pill of compassion is very difficult to swallow because it means you have to look at the other as being a human. And this is not an easy thing to do. It means you have to modulate your anger, particularly when you've been genuinely hurt. You have to modulate that and say I'm hurting and that's a human being. That is something that takes a very mature mind. And the other big red pill that I challenge everyone to take is the red pill of saying I don't know. I don't know the answer. Let's move on just real briefly. Who are some of your heroes and people you look up to? Some of the mentors that you have. Mentors are heroes. Both. If we have time, both. I have some odd ones. Harry Udini the magician when I was a kid because he was such a great self-promoter. He knew how to promote himself. Muhammad Ali when I was a kid, loved to watch him fight. Again, a great promoter. He wanted to see him get his ass beat. Both were masters. Self-promoters and masters of their field. Clarence Kelly Johnson who's the head of the Skunk Works. Yes, R71. F117. These guys made the impossible possible. One of my heroes, Voltaire. The famous French comic playwright. Voltaire said something that inspired me when I was 19. 19 and had a huge heart on for this huge titted girl to El Camino junior college library. I was reading something by Voltaire. He said, give me five minutes to talk away my ugly face and I'll bed the queen of France. I use it on a regular basis. I loved Voltaire. Voltaire was one of my heroes. And finally my father. Where we heard this before. My father. I'll tell you why. My father for all his flaws. He had many. He fought World War II. The greatest evil the world arguably has ever seen. He fought the Nazis. He was a combat medic. He was not allowed to carry a gun. Imagine everyone shooting at you. He had a crawl out under fire. Voltaire told me he literally shit his pants with fear. Many times. Literally. But he did his duty. My father never ran away from his duty. He said something interesting. He said after a while I wasn't fighting for the country or freedom. I was fighting for the guy on either side of me. And the guy he had to get to. Even though I hated war. He forbade me from going into the military. So my father did his duty and he never ran away. He would feed six kids. My cousin who lived with us for five or six years. He broke his back. He worked three jobs. Towards the end of his life when he was very feeble he could barely move. I said dad you lived in a sexless marriage. You broke your back working. Did you ever think of running away? And suddenly the life came back into him. He pulled himself up. I'll never forget this. As much of an upright posture I would never run away from my children. Never run away from my family. If I had the strength I'd do it again. And then he sunk back down into his coma of pain. We're going to have to end there. To sit down and think that that is what you imprinted on. We talked about the trauma. The imprintation. This is the man you became and the life you lived. What a fascinating story. Thank you for the honor. Actually you know what. Let's give it another ten minutes. I still have liquor here. So you take this with the imprintation of your father as the man and you actually as a hero. Talk about your mentorships as your educational system. So Gary Halbert who is my marketing mentor Gary taught me the most important lesson in all the copy. I write all my own copy with the exception of some of the emails that my ops manager I've trained him to write in my voice. Gary taught me one thing. If you want to be successful in print marketing because people do not have time to understand your pathetic subtlety. One more time. People do not have time to try to figure out your pathetic subtlety. Gary taught me that. Richard Bandler the co-creator of NLP took me under his wing and taught me neuro linguistic programming. By far the great teacher of my lifetime who has totally changed my view about what it means to be human. Shenzhen Yang my meditation teacher when I got exposed to him my mother was dying of liver cancer my business partner 15 years was like a father to me cheated me in business, betrayed me and I was dying inside and I got exposed to his work. Shenzhen taught me that pain and suffering are not the same thing and that pleasure and satisfaction are not the same thing. And I've had the direct experience through meditation of the self as a thing disappearing that I am not a thing in there called a self. I've had the direct experience of self and world dissolving as separate entities and I've experienced myself as a flow of activity that arises and vanishes and in that moment of vanishing I've had it very rarely in 10 years of meditating I've maybe had an hour or two of it in that moment of vanishing there's a excuse me a profound peace that goes beyond human understanding can I get a glass of water is that possible or yeah do you understand so Shenzhen has been far and away and he's the most brilliant human being I've ever met and he teaches poetically and mathematically. Tell me more about the instructor because a lot of people may not know him. Shenzhen is a mathematician and a scientist and he teaches Vipassana Vipassana is Buddhist essentially the elements of Vipassana are focus you stay focused it's resolution power you look with great clarity on what's going on and then equanimity you don't fight what's going on so you don't repress the pain but you don't feed it with the storage because anything that's external will actually pass if that's only a philosophy if you have the skill set of meditation then see it offers a beautiful third choice people either run from pain or they tell themselves a story about it and feed it but the direct experience of the sensation of pain without a story and without suppression there's no suffering I was crippled with grief when my mother was dying I remember laying down I couldn't even sit in meditation I did what he taught and I felt all the pain tracked all the sensations here's the sadness, here's the emotional exhaustion and 45 minutes into it it just broke up into a flow and a wave of bliss and satisfaction and for about two days I carried a very subtle very subtle piece beyond understanding I was also very sad so it really had a profound impact it's made me a much more compassionate human being I have a deep schema from my family of having to make people wrong and for a long time in my career I made enemies because I said that was part of my, it was so much gold, a fish in water so much of how I saw the world I needed to go out publicly and make other teachers wrong and for that I offer an apology it's one thing to make another person to take their ideas and rip them apart it's another thing to personally attack them so for that I apologize but also that was my momentum and through meditation I was able to see that and over time these habits have what I call cognitive momentum and emotional inertia and when you meditate they no longer arise so strongly that they distort your perception and drive your behavior but you have to embrace that feeling you have to exist it you have to experience it without fighting it 2 second drink cheers I don't drink alcohol oh no sir now we actually get a clink glasses properly it was just an excuse fantastic so let's move on to that so you have this instructor and mentor how did you start actually doing that in your actual life what was the process there I started to meditate and over time what it did look I realized that I never dropped the spiritual poisons I carried when I was that ugly guy who couldn't get women those poisons were still in me the poisons of resentment envy contempt despair and horrible agitation there should have been like tremendous jealousy and rage as well there was envy not rage envy not jealousy and these were all intense spiritual poisons so to this day after I do my meditation I say a little prayer I don't believe in a higher power but I say please take this envy and transmute it into genuine happiness for the prosperity of others and genuine gratitude for what it is I have myself please take this contempt respect and admiration for others and respect for myself humility humble respect for myself so I do a ritual where I take each one of those elements and I transmute it and over time it's gotten to the point where I am not that person I used to be I've seen that need and I think part of the problem I don't like the word spiritual whenever I hear the word spiritual I reach for my 45 because it's such a sloppy word but I think that aspect needs to be addressed of all these poisons that are in every human being and I think here's the other thing I come from a discipline of being a healer half of what I do with my students is healing work many guys who come to this movement, this community are traumatized absolutely so for me it's not a matter of alpha and beta absolutely for me it's not a matter of alpha and beta it's a matter of traumatized and non traumatized so if you take a traumatized guy and he thinks they're battered or whatever it is or he's seen the example of his father enraged and he thinks oh that's being alpha I never want to be that I'd rather be a victim than act that way he's confused being abusive with being dominant and being a leader I have to untangle those for him and lead him on a path of self healing so if you say to a guy who's deeply traumatized or wounded you should act this way and give him another thing to hate himself over I think that's not being addressed in the community because you carry the ones for it it's not even scars being wounded doesn't make you less of a man it doesn't make you less of a man it's not a reason for shaming a lot of these so called white knights never experienced a real connection they didn't have any intimacy in the home it was a cold home and so they were going to reach for it anywhere they can find it I think in many cases they're coming to the rescue of their mother I don't know if I'll go that far but to ridicule them with a name this is my other problem with both Meg Tao and Red Pill they take complex creatures like humans and they put them into cartoon categories like a thing called a white knight or a thing called an alpha or a thing called a beta they're reductionist in their nature they take complex creatures like humans they reduce them down to cartoon characters not the way to wisdom that is not the way to truth to have the patience with confusion and not knowing the exact answer and to say it's sort of like this takes a lot of discipline but this is exactly the kind of thing that Red Pill and Meg Tao do they reduce people into categories and humans are not that simple they're complex and they're chaotic and you cannot find truth through that method of doing things it just doesn't work that way so to have the patience to say this is someone who has some of these qualities and some of these qualities that takes being able to say I don't know I know I'm guilty of a profession because we try to categorize things and the other thing is it's too convenient to use shorthand and I think we miss the human it's a bad way to understand humans and I think particularly when we talk about dynamics between people it lacks empathy I talk about I design buildings but empathy is for pussies and simps and betas that's what Meg Tao is essentially saying it's for simps I've been labeled captain save a hoe I've been labeled trying to build a better beta no one dares label me that because I'm an OG I'm a godfather mother fuckers there's a 45 in his hand so we're right by the way nice choice of weaponry oh thank you I have a 45 you should never discuss weapons no no no there's no 45 I have a 45 a Smith & Wesson model they gave it to LAPD I figured the LAPD can shoot with it and then I have a long colt a 45 long colt it's a cowboy gun it's a 45 caliber but it's got a long cartridge which is fun to shoot women love to shoot it it's got a big roar and a big flame it's a single action where you have to cock it and if it runs out of ammo you just whack someone with it it's a heavy chunk of metal none of this composite glock shit we're not going there are we at our 30 minutes part I hate to say it let's end it here so we're on a good mark absolutely fantastic thank you very very much and let's stay in touch with our friends I respect you this is signed and offered 21 radio Ross Jeffries here before we go I did you a disservice where can others find you easy rjcoaching.com that's rjcoaching.com and what services and products do you actually provide I have a group coaching program so you get to talk to me that's me not a trainee not a flunky not an apprentice not a novice not a trainee talk to me four times a month for 197 bucks a month that's insane now let's go back where can they find that rjcoaching.com fantastic thank you very much pleasure thank you sock signing off take care thank you very much