 So, Shelley Rosenblum's talk is titled, The Score, Performing, Listening and Decolonisation, and introduced speaker, Shelley Rosenblum, is curator of academic programs at the Belkin Gallery, the University of British Columbia in Vancouver. Inaugurating this position, Rosenblum's role is to develop programs that increase the myriad forms of civic and academic engagement at UBC. Rosenblum received a PhD at Brown University and has taught at Brown, Wesleyan and UBC. And that will be followed by Susanna Vinterling's talk, which is titled, Planetary Sensing as a Deciphering Practice. Susanna Vinterling works across a range of media to explore the sentient economy, cultures and transformations of elements and materializations. While forms and materials trace species and their social in today's challenging geopolitical context, Vinterling's practice reflects upon the political as well as aesthetic entanglements and power structures among human-animal matter constellations. So, Shelley, over to you. Hello, everyone. Thanks so much for coming. Before we begin, I'd really like to just give a sincere thanks to Estrida and Shria and Kathleen and Ella for the invitation and the care. I really appreciate it and being here and everything that's gone into bringing us here together. The talks are a bit brief, so this is really a set of propositions five and their suggestions for things I hope we can continue talking about today and tomorrow is the idea. So, without further ado, soundings and exhibition in five parts was an iterative exhibition curated by Candace Hopkins and Dylan Robinson also during the pandemic. So, 2019 to 2022 were these iterations that featured newly commissioned scores, performances, videos, sculptures and sound by indigenous and other artists who responded to the question, how can a score be a call and tool for decolonization? The scores took the form of beadwork, videos, objects, graphic notation, historical belongings and written instructions and were activated at specific moments. The exhibition was cumulative, shifting and evolving, it gained new artists and players at each location including at the gallery where I work, the balcony. For us, soundings was also a catalyst for continued research and resulted in the score and interdisciplinary network of scholars, artists, activists and publics. We began with a desire to explore how artworks, performance and or ceremony may represent multiple and complex notions of land, territory and sovereignty. The concept of the score as protocol, the practice of deep listening and the embodied effects of sound as it delineates the territory posed critical questions. We committed to moving beyond the mere acknowledgement of land and territory and to offering a paradigm for sensing and listening to indigenous histories that trouble the colonial imaginary. I want to think today about how we how we consume through listening. If we live in a state of hunger, Robinson's hungry listening, how is the gallery implicated in this kind of hunger? How might we come together to mutually sustain one another? What is the work that we are doing that isn't primarily an accumulation of something to be taken up and held by us but instead a way of being in relation? Whoops. I'm thinking about practices through which artists work with and beyond archives and to tell alternative versions with different textures of history. I'm interested in practices that center dirt, land, water, soil, feeling, kinship and ways that disrupt archival logics around distance, separation and objectivity which define so much archival discourse. How can artworks model multi-sensory forms of relation to the past, to history, to other people, to more than human and non-human others? The ethics of those relations are about partiality, about refusing fantasies of full access or fantasies around mastery or wholeness, troubling the notion that you could ever really know another person or history and what it means to do history and to engage in creative practice through ethical partiality. Two, we are in the midst of a moment of great grief. I want to share a story that centers on collective grief and what it might take to get the powers that be to turn their ears and try to listen to what is sounding to hear the collective voices. During the protests against the Dakota Access Pipeline, water protectors staged a powerful action. With elders leading nearly 400 women walked to the bridge over what is now called the Missouri River to occupy the only middle ground between themselves and the police. When they reached the center of the bridge, the women stood together in absolute silence. Yet as John Cage's composition for minutes 33 seconds revealed long ago, silence is never truly silence. Soon other sounds were amplified for those who would gather, the sounds of terror and surveillance. Everyone present could hear the ubiquitous hum of drones overhead recording every move, the buzz of handheld radios and the metallic clicks as the police ready their firearms and prepared canisters of tear gas. The authorities were prepared for the usual forms of protest but not this one. In the absence of words, the women became another kind of critic. Their silence a powerful affront to corporate abuse of power and the inability to think beyond the insatiable need for resources. The women's decision not to raise their voices but to rely on this irreducible presence instead became a destabilizing force. In their silence the women achieved an interruption. Three, the museum is a frame but not a conventional one. Its edges can shift, it creates borders within borders which can act as dividing lines particularly when it comes to questions of ownership, rights and the rehoming of belongings. I'm interested in the excuses developed by museums as to why they can't give things back even when it's clear that they shouldn't have them in the first place and acquired them through dubious means. I've been thinking lately of the concept of repatriation otherwise. The idea that perhaps our frame of reference is unduly predicated on colonial protocols of the museum instead of indigenous protocols and the protocols of the belonging itself. Here I'm thinking of those who mobilized the potentiality of embodying a belonging as a form of bringing it closer to home. The artist Tanya Luke and Linklater and her collaborator set this in motion in We Wear One Another, a commission for soundings. Here she responds to the Enovi Alluit Rain Parka that she read as a score for performance with two dancers and an amplified violinist. Investigating histories of archaeology, anthropology and repatriation, Luke and Linklater contextualizes her practice and performance alongside and in relation to cultural belongings as gestures toward repatriation. Making a link between the absent body that the parka was made for and her own, the work was realized in collaboration with the parka and the Apache violinist Laura Orttman and dancers Senwyn Gobert and Dana Rosales. Through her extended engagement and the bodies that came into dialogue with new choreographies, new music, new songs were enabled. The first question that the artist asked was how might the parka itself become a score for new choreographies? Before I traveled to the gallery from the Manitoba Museum, Luke and Linklater wanted to visit with this parka. She sat in proximity with it, got to know it, shared an intimacy with something made for and by the hands of her ancestors. She did this by gaining knowledge of it on its own terms. It was made from stitched dried steel gut, seal gut and for a particular person to fit their shoulders, to fit over the shape of their head, to fit snugly around their neck, to keep out icy waters when worn out at sea on a kayak. It was sewn for the width of their torso for the length of their arms. The parka is a trace of them because it was a part of them. While at the museum, Tanya learned as much as she could about the migration of this cultural belonging, how it came to be in the museum's collection. Histories that are layered onto belongings when they come into the museum are often fragmented. They are filled with gaps and silences. More often than not, we know more about the collector than the creator. By simply being with this belonging was it possible to amend some of these silences and gaps and knowledge and its attendant hierarchies? Four. Peter Moran's Indian Love Songs is at once thrilling, haunting and beautiful. In part one of Indian Love Songs, the artist offers a score of instructions to musicians presented alongside seven video portraits. Part two presents videos of recordings of previous iterations of the soundings exhibition. In part three, Parmetta Arraweala performs the score on the violin at the Belkin. The video component of Indian Love Songs can be seen as drum portraits. The featured drums are from the Royal British Columbia Museum in Victoria and each represents someone that Moran has loved in his life and someone for whom he has not been able to fully express that love. Playing in succession in a line and moving at different speeds, the drum portraits can be inflected by the written score on the adjacent wall. We activate the score with our breath and with the extension of our bodies and time. In repetition, we begin to redraw the deep etchings of colonization. Indian Love Songs is a work that rests upon notions of resonance, time, rhythms, loss, access, connection, kinship and knowledge and the complexity of their layered meanings when in dialogue. Moran offers us an intimate view of the worn hand drums. The camera's gaze is archival, perhaps archival is the wrong word, it feels too colonial. The camera is preserving, it is memorizing. In the videos we're not watching the drums being played, we're focused on their materiality, we're observing craftsmanship, care, wear and tear, physical manifestations of knowledge. The camera allows us to study and experience them. A hand just outside the frame slowly moves and turns each of the drums, holding them toward the camera to pan all their markings to reveal their past lives. A tarawalla is playing to each one of them. The score is both a response and an offering to the lives and knowledges that echo from within these drums. Five. The artists I've reflected on today work and think about specific relationships to land that are grounded in material histories, either through indigenous communities as indigenous artists and indigenous ancestral connection to land. The idea of ethical relation across difference is the heart of this research and how I understand the artist's practice as being willing to think across difference in new ways in shapes that can hold different people and different histories without collapsing them, not reaching towards semblance or sameness as the condition for thinking together. For myself, I frame this as a thinking with rather than a thinking about. Writing with is about moving into an ethics of accompaniment for thinking about other forms of knowledge, pardon other forms of knowledge production, which to cite Trinman Ha, think or speak or theorize nearby. And certainly that's about firmly positioning myself in the frame and thinking concretely about my own relation to the work. Thank you. I'm very happy that I made it here and that I'm on two legs and I'm not contagious but I still have to deal with the aftermath as many of us and it might go on and it might be something we have to deal with. I still would also like to thank for the super organization and for all the, you know, being so scared that there's also been train strikes and whatnot, one of the many problems that make us shaky but it always like super, super nice and organized and I also would like to thank for the great energy that is in here. It will be difficult for me to keep up with but I try to give my best and I also have to read. I'm maybe, as it has been said, I'm an artist not so good with words but I'm trying to figure something out here. I'm trying to figure something out that can be a practice and I do have to use words. So being kidnapped by dinoflagellates in Puerto Rico in 2014, I started being sensibilized to a complexity working with a precarious ecosystem of bioluminescent microorganisms. A phenomenon all season found only in various bays in the Caribbean and as Michael Latzuz, maybe the scientific expert on this phenomena, calls it an alarm system for the violent transformations we're experiencing and that was already in 2018. Pietro a fisherman asked me, do the politicians expect the microorganisms to send an SMS? When I was interested in talking about the phenomena with him and what he called the aqua viva, it was not really possible to learn about the stories and the relationship to the glowing base, the glowing base that are a jewel in biodiversity and a proxy for healthy coastal areas but also a source of income for the surrounding community of humans. It also is a source and catalyst of traditional knowledge and stories from healing to a means to defend the coastline against the colonizers. His rage and engagement to emphasize the threat and mismanagement of the bay became the starting point for an artistic research network that I'm presenting here some parts that I hope will make sense for like a practice of sensing in these many traps as the speakers before me have have emphasized. I feel that really like a trap that there's another washing of and another power game where you feel squeezed and helpless. From this encounter with fishermen, stories, rituals and scientists the networking project Planetary Sensing has been woven into a proposal for a sustainable community empowerment in the form of a research and learning hub through citizen science, scientific research, arts and craft. To key collaborators and conversation partners in this project unfolding the bond of social and ecological violence a Tony in Law, a leader, Matt Davis specialized in Caribbean and international environmental law and Denise Ferreira da Silva not formally also at UBC but now at NYU. The focus has been an interdisciplinary approach of social as ecological justice and we propose that with the term coined by Denise Ferreira da Silva deep implicancy as the ethical concept for natural right disregarding the distinction between living and non-living matter. Sylvia Winter's call of rewriting knowledge is an important influence how to avoid the ever renewed and accelerated patterns of sexual and racial discrimination especially in the blue and green economies and the pores of our capital oriented reprogrammed life and health crisis. How can a different cultural structure and biodiversity dual ecosystem and embankment of a coastline be a nurturing ground of intergenerational and international collaborations on a locally specific basis across species. Rewriting knowledge as a deciphering practice towards the human we read Sylvia Winter also as a spotlight on counter narratives and a bridge between a science biological wording and a consent not to be a single being. In the wretched current dynamics we're proposing a practice as a prototype incorporating social physicality technology and science as well as poetry and especially science fiction. Dinoflagellates are embraced as a proxy of the well-being of an ecosystem their sensors themselves but they also give access to a sensory data of a modern humankind a sensing mechanism across species informing about power and energy flows. Scientists, fishermen, currents, microorganisms, infrastructures and the history and presence of maroon ecology. Sylvia Winter and Eyal Weisman and Matthew Fuller define aesthetics in composition with fields of power. What is attended to who's listened to who's counted as having significance what calculus of indifference is operative which structures simply cannot perceive certain things due to their very nature. As a cluster in an ecology with complexity a concept of ecofeminist intimacy composed of particles planetary sensing is embanking a threshold with a glow of bioluminescence while making an epistemic claim in listening to Fisher Fork and the community around a coastal ecosystem who themselves have been listening to currents and the glow for generations. Contrary to Fuller and Weisman we see listening to a network across species and living as well as non-living matter as a political tool and a practice of deciphering not limited to forensics and sensor data analysis but in the presence to the future. In bonding with a clustering microorganisms we question what it is to be human and demand a more complex reading of nature as culture. In the paper referred to rethinking aesthetics towards a deciphering practice Sylvia Winter writes to propose a turn towards a deciphering practice based on new postulate of causality in place of the and I'm quoting human nature causality postulate of our present cultural imaginary in place also of its counter versions the mode of production causality of Marxism and the patriarchy postulate of causality of feminism this new postulate is that of the correlated discursive come biochemical causality of our narratively instituted cultural imaginaries they're modes of the subject and their forms or ways of life it is these imaginaries and the modes of altruistic symbolic kin relatedness they induce that necessary set the parameters of possibilities in the current climate of ecological racism and violence we identify the necessity to experiment with ways of cohabitation and to activate a node network for making meaning in a different way that can set a different matrix of possibilities with an alliance of complex bio indicator for a healthy cohabitation of humans and non-humans since ancient times we look at the entanglement of communities and ecosystem as a weapon and a shield of embankment against outsourced tourism corruption and the after the effects of climate change how can we suggest new ways of creating knowledge paying tribute to the circumstances of many voices unheard for example with a chest and attempt changing hierarchies of knowledge through amplifying knowledge of cohabitation on the same level as scientific knowledge as an approach to the human we experiment with an ethical principle for natural rights that disregard the distinction between living and non-living matter how can this they and their future living entities a cluster formation of connections be and be sensed in these violent times given the particles in motion what we perceive as identities an artistic organization a cluster a complex of physical sociality not as an ego or an identity but a multiverse across species and cultures connected how can this cluster of refusing to be a single being persist and insist being in the wretched and wake of current dynamics we're proposing to cooperate the experience of others but not repeat the violence of integration in our in a colonial way that our fascist climate situation is propelling based on sensing in a multiple way to form a sensing organ under the surface navigating physical sociality with beings and beings to come as well as ancestral forms of life a situated ontology as a prototype with epistemologies and senses in different layers biosensors which are more than human in the way that they need deciphering through and within technology but they are not themselves human made technology which are for example dinoflagellates their technology that give access to sensory data of a modern humankind in for example sensitizing fishermen to the changes of the currents in a bay where development and construction sites have altered the coastline in a way that's not visible for the mere eye it is a baseline sensing mechanism across species informing about power and energy flows and i'm quoting nedy nedy okura for nature is the best technology the many worlds in hyperethetics and deciphering biomass measures must be taken to open up what's recognized as the political to the sensing and the sense making of people beings and entities that have been excluded and we have to reshape the political again in respect to weisman and fuller for this shared terminology we see sensing as a political practice an anti-imperial and anti-colonial and an ongoing doing one is committed to due to a certain obligation one is born to or an environment with the affordance to closer to a different aesthetics described by silvia winter as deciphering planetary sensing refracts the interrelationship that creates bioluminescence and a high-speed sensing mechanism it's deciphering the relationship between the the narratives we craft about who we are as well as what we're for and the structure of the material world as a situated ontology we aim to rewrite knowledge in the way silvia winter has made us think through aesthetics as a deciphering practice we are cluster composed of massive difference and complexity we are only in connection as a node system a bay a sensor a dinoflagellate a cluster a form we are lying from and in a deep connectedness constantly new because and off the ecological economic and aesthetic differences we make interplay inherit and embank we might try to avoid subjectivation but insist in a poetics in a matrix in the inner sensibility and tactility while certain concepts sorry while certain concepts are shaped and probed in critical and physical ways to more focus on dynamics and transformations allows us to be more tuned with what makes the particle and the planetary navigation possible the currents and the dispositions as well as the material economic and political conditions the dispositions gaia seems to be in and human technology is tackling merely with piles of stacks of data for more exploitation of knowledge and ways of being forming a cluster without a we and the necessary construction and language but more a drifting and a current in its dynamics before linguistic expression which also materially and dynamically is closer to what we experience in the temperature and massive meteorological happenings and they need to be decoded and they will have to be decoded another level of seeing and reaching where critical theory has brought us but shows its limits in the face of fascists and other tornadoes this is not a metaphor but a parallel whether harshness and extremes have become the normal on this planet we have normalized fascist dynamics in europe and i'm german especially colonial long-term politics as in palestine in the form of necropolitics not only on the human species but across all species thank you yeah so again thank you for making us think about sensing in very different ways i just want to open it up to questions from the questions comments thoughts from the audience yeah a question for susanne you used one of my favorite words so i'm latching on to that it's subjectivation and then i'm connecting it to the question around identity and identity politics i think i think we'll be returning to that did you wish to move away from subjectivation do you think of subjectivation as something that is problematic so maybe you can tell us a little bit more about that and i guess thank you for closing on fascism this is something that i would have liked to write about but i haven't been able to um one of the things that i find really disturbing about eco fascism not eco fascism sorry eco feminism this is a a slippage that is actually yes one of one of the ways one of the one of my entry points in being interested in eco feminism was eco fascism actually and um some connections with deep ecology that were there in the 80s and i'm not asking you to speak on those i'm just telling you what's driving my inquiry um which is i guess how do we think about um critique of speciesism speciesism that doesn't take us in an anti-human fascist direction and um and and what would be the political category for doing so because for me subjectivation is something that we can hold on to while not being anthropocentric am i making sense is this enough information thank you thank you um yes i uh i i think these are the crucial these are crucial questions i use subjectivation from particular side of political theory i think it is a big it's it's uh it's very easy a big problem maybe i'm not i'm not an expert on this but i'm using it in this context maybe a little bit like i see the problem of the categorizations and the the problem of um language and identity um as a big trap um and and that's why in in this project or in my practice with all these many collaborators it is trying to escape the subjectivation subjectivation as in general and to see uh but of course you have to say yeah but you're speaking so who are you you know there's a voice that is um i don't know if that answers but uh i i really see see so many traps in these things that uh that i'm trying to avoid the traps it's a bit like being in a you know in a in where where these um the package you have to buy with that would be too big so i'd rather would try to avoid subjectivation especially because as an artist i'm very let's say material skill elemental bound the language is not my favorite thing but i am trained in analytical philosophy where for example subjectivation i think it's one of the main binaries maybe that's a good way to explain object subject is one of the main binaries that were i mean for sure in western philosophy and civilization we're constantly looping back into so when you think of like how can how can we get out of all these out of these washing patterns out of this you know constantly repeated other rings um i think to get rid of subjectivation could be a possibility it's as simple as that actually it's i mean it's not simple but and if this is the alternative form of subjectivation if that is some kind of another way of going about it and i was also wondering if because obviously this this subject can be conceived of in so many different ways and it the subject is conceived of in many different ways by different philosophers and that's before before we even kind of leave philosophy to go into other disciplines and i'm just thinking about the whole kind of idea of there is no subjectivity without inter subjectivity and that that that that can we think of subjectivity as always already inter subjectivity and i was just wondering if if that if if the cluster without a we kind of goes in that direction for you or or if i told him miss miss understood thank you um i i don't think you have misunderstood but i would like to not use the term so let's say for example when you go to particles or the quantum level as you know deniso for example would say and we do have another research group that's very concerned around easy then you like silvia winter you just have causality and then it's more a question of agency and who's you know who is who's who's the agent of this volcano who's the agent of this tornado i think these questions to me are much more interesting than what is you know what is this subject in you know very big in german philosophy and in a lot of the things for example we encounter in that project they're just not circling around these things and then you you get you get more easy away from a lot of following binary concepts there's another question up front and and then i'm just wondering whether mystics philosophers like martin buber with the iron thou concept shifts things to place of reverence because in my mind reverence is a whole body experience a whole being experience and a relational experience beyond a kind of high mind intellectual um exchanges that happen which which are often disconnected or have a disconnect um yeah just wondering well no super i mean i'm not an expert on martin buber this is like it you know but i think just for example the term reverberance or denise uses echo i think these things are much more interesting to think of and you can also have a strong bodily experience as a collective body you know it's like why do certain people feel like i don't know this violence being also connected to some other things that are happening in the world for example you're talking about gaza you just know that this is not just about that there is so like i do really think that there can be collective bodies and there can be sensing bodies that are more composed than one subject and i think in you know miss you call it mystics which is great but i would spend this into you know from from very different sufi tradition to the desert a lot that sees that not just around one single experiencing body and that's actually for example what i'm interested in like why you know you can sense with other species not to go into the too crazy but i think this these kind of things like mystics and looking into other ways of experiencing togetherness well i mean i just see one body which is the planet in the cosmos in a in a wider cosmology so in that sense it is one body yes yes absolutely yeah thank you to everybody i have a question for shelly um and i was really fascinated by the um provocation of thinking about the concept of the score as a protocol as you put it and i was curious about how that i a i want to know more about that and i was thinking about that in relation to dylan robinson's work in hungry listening where he in particular um looks at the way that sound was used to produce attention amongst children in the residential school system so listening to the school bell the bell that gets you up in the morning a certain kind of sound that produces a regime of attention that's um a kind of protocol and i guess i was interested in this curatorial project and your take on it as to how the protocol was sort of reinvented in as uh sort of resistant or counter to these other protocols of sound that have been so pervasive in producing us this particular kind of like bodily response to the colonial regime through protocols of sound so yeah thank you it's nice to see you and to see your work in the gallery again thank you for your question thank you um the work the score project is continuing and it's kind of um in its accretion taking on more and more partners and that's a really resonant part of the project what it would mean to continue to think this differently i i showed um raven chicans american ledger um and it was uh very interesting to engage the project during covid to start that way because um we were really thinking about territory and specifically um being on musqueam land at u b c always but during this time campus was um felt empty and from from how it usually is and uh one of the first things we did was sonic responses to space on campus and um and it was the bell tower that interested the most and we started with uh patrick nickelsons article about um colonial time through that kind of capitalist parsing of time with uh bell and schedule particularly in the context of residential school and what would it mean to establish a new relationship to the experience of that sound on campus and um living and doing the work we do within a an academic regime that was always already about a military presence and and a capitalist parsing of time and understanding of body through that space and uh ignoring all the histories uh that had been there so um i think for for all of us thinking that through in the moment of the pandemic ended up a really rich way to start uh the project because we were um it was radically dissociative and embodied at the same time and i think that became a kind of paradigm not a score but maybe a a paradigm or a key to understanding what the work would do and understanding uh protocol generally is really where the score project is going re-understanding and i think that this idea of um that we don't have a blueprint or way of understanding so a score is so highly um the semiotics of a score in the western tradition of course there's room for interpretation but it's a pretty tight tight text and um breathing life into text that undermines the way we would always understand what the textuality does is really what what protocol was about and um unlearning uh lexicon and a whole series of indices of what how things refer i think is the the fundamental um commitment to the project but what it is is understood at each iteration i don't think there's a new there's not in like a replacement thing it's that experiential and embodied way of encountering it each time and the way we're doing that i think is primarily with them following the leads of artists who come and the we invited a streeter for a week we had a listening week as part of this and really what the ask has been for us is really a willingness to be and to sit with and to figure out together but to start from a place of not not providing a product or an answer but really troubling what is protocol and what what does it mean to think of that in aggregate in a in a pretty um wildly diverse group of practitioners who either have no access to what protocol is and i was really interested with um Greta's comment on um land acknowledgments so what does it mean to think about land acknowledgments and territory differently through a different kind of practice that isn't wrote so i think that's where we're still sitting with with the project not with an answer that was a pretty diffuse response i'll chalk it up mostly to jet lag but happy to talk talk more about it thank you for the question um talking about protocols shelly i wondered if you might be able to expand a bit on some of the thinking you mentioned about the the protocols that kind of keep museum objects where they are and um that the excuse is about giving things back and if you might just say a little bit more about that and what you've kind of been reflecting on um well i'm really interested in how this discussion between subject and object is where we started because really that's what the where the thinking is about repatriation otherwise what's so rich in thinking through tennis project i think is not thinking in terms of objects or what's accumulated in the collection not about thinking about things but that's a relation right there so being with the parka was the beat was about repatriation otherwise because it's um it's refusing an objectification and insisting on you know in that example the parka is a subject in the way that she is a subject and that's relational um that is a relational situation but what i meant about that um the protocol there is this this argument uh that we hear all the time which um perpetuates the the control and the discipline the expertise of the curator and the collection and the collector which is that if we if we liberate objects they'll be outside the discourse of um best practices and how they ought to be cared for and the the wild arrogance of um who knows best about how to care how to describe how to talk about what language to use how to behave our own embodied experience um what does it mean to think about cultural belongings and not objects and what is care what constitutes what constitutes care and what are the rules for enacting care thank you it made me think a lot about some of the things that gretta was talking about about settler innocence and there's there being an innocence in museums care of objects and exactly what you've just been talking about and and how do we refuse to continue to ally that perniciousness and shed light on that yeah thank you i think both talks um really opened up visitors but at the same time gave us really concrete things to take away um which is what i really enjoyed about the panel and i think um i i know i have specific questions and i know there will be other conversations that come out from this so we're going to take a break but if you can come back really looking forward to seeing you again so thank you all for your questions