 Thank you for coming here this morning we're here to talk about Ruby and the Ruby community in India and I'll just introduce ourselves quickly first my name is Sidhu. I Do my open source here. That's my alias on GitHub and I'm on Twitter here and this is Hi, I'm Niranjan. I do my open source here on GitHub and this is my Twitter handle So yeah, we're gonna do a bit of to and fro here because It's a little hard to manage with the mic so bear with us We both work at C42 engineering, which is which is the boutique Ruby services firm that we founded about 10 months ago in India That's that's our company open source This thing right there on GitHub C42 Before this we spent about maybe two between us like he was he was in ThoughtWorks for about two or three years I was in ThoughtWorks for five years. So we worked in other companies before starting this again and the services in our tree again largely in Ruby for several years So, yeah Want to get started? Yeah, so before I actually jump into the Talk itself. I'd like to set some setup up context So this talk is mostly going to be about how things work when it comes to software services industry in India specifically in Ruby We're going to talk about what Ruby is Today and what we anticipated is going to be in future in say five years time You have to keep it in mind that whatever opinions we have are really subjective and they might differ from person to person Now how is it relevant to you guys our audience? We are making a couple of assumptions about you all that you either Sell Ruby or buy Ruby Services products doesn't matter you consume Ruby in some manner. That's what is important If you are buying Ruby services from India, it's important to understand both advantages and limitations of distributed development If you are sending work Ruby work Understanding how Ruby business works in India will give you a good context to make a better decisions We have spent nearly six years in offshore software development in companies as diverse as in forces ThoughtWorks and now C42 engineering Distributed we understand distributed development fairly well We are also going to spend some time talking about our experiences in this area and how it works While remaining agile and especially in context of Ruby We'll talk about ground realities Realities of the market so that as a bio you can make informed decision. We'll talk about What it is like to be a seller in the market both as an employee as a consultant and as a promoter of the firm But this is what it is today, and we expect the situation to change in coming five years We'll talk about why we believe that real opportunities for rubies in India lies elsewhere. It's not in services market We see enormous opportunity in the local market because India is very strong democracy with around 100,000, sorry Yeah, 100 million strong English-speaking middle class and around 700 million strong non-English-speaking rural class And this is completely untapped market and Ruby and its ecosystem is Perfectly placed for building software for this market Because everybody needs software So that's about the context We'll talk about now a little bit of FST So yeah, just to understand where things are today, let's just look back at the last five years I basically got involved with Ruby around 2005 when I first joined ThoughtWorks This was this was sort of very superficial. Hello world programs that sort of a thing I didn't really write any single major application, but I was involved to some extent Watching the user groups watching meetings My first real Ruby app was in 06 when I when I did my first startup which was in the Which was in the mobile in the SMS text messaging space We grew we were successful. It was called inactive that that's the URL there. There isn't much there besides a website because it's primarily on Mobile phones and it used rails. So this was a time when you know, I think it was rails one point one maybe and Lighty and FCG I think was the hot stuff back then, right? I don't know if how many people here have actually had had to deploy a production app into lighting FCG But it wasn't fun. Believe me. So, yeah, we had like a couple of servers in our bedroom and things went well and we didn't so that startup failed and It didn't fail because rails doesn't scale Sadly it failed because it was really hard to raise money in India so yeah, so that that startup failed, but I got a bit of rails experience and It was interesting, but I don't want to digress Let's go back to how things were back then. I'm gonna look at this from the perspectives of of three three sort of parties involved in this enterprise customers typically in terms of medium and large businesses Local clients that are smaller businesses and individuals and the development community. So enterprise customers at that time Basically didn't know what Ruby was and they didn't care local customers love PHP and WordPress was pretty much what everybody did and this is India, right? There wasn't really that much of You know any commas thing going on. It was mostly static websites and everybody just did PHP and WordPress the developers Yeah, that was pretty much it Java. Everybody loved Java. So a bit of a side note around this time was when What I think was to been the first commercially built rails app in India was released I don't I can't say this for sure, but this app did go into production This was built in ThoughtWorks India in and went live I think around the middle of 2006 and was deployed in the US In a couple of bars. So yeah, it was an interesting application. It had DSL that would it had a touch screen And was built in rails. So yeah Moving on to you know 2008 a couple of years Rails 2 had just come out Mongrel was hot and enterprise customers were saying Ruby doesn't scale little customers still wondered what Ruby was they had no idea and Developers well, they said that they'd heard of Ruby. They There was some uptake like I don't know the first user group meeting We had the Bangalore Ruby user group meeting in a way it must have had about five six people attending and all six people Try to hire each other. So yeah, anyway And the rest of the community loved C sharp First of all to today 2010 Enterprise customers are saying ruby is interesting We at this point we'd already done like a couple of years or three years of work for Large businesses medium to large businesses building, you know rails apps that were critical not just you know crowd websites or something simple These are actually mission critical applications Local customers were even more interesting. I happened to meet This this friend of my dad's who's a chartered accountant and he asked me what I was doing and I said, you know I started a services company and he said in what and I didn't really expect him to understand was like, yeah What the hell so I said it's an ruby, you know ruby in rails. He's like, oh Like dude my cousin in Wipro doesn't know the shit. How do you know this? Right and it turns out that his his entire business runs an open-source stack and all is ticketing for all of his customers Is done through red mine and I thought that was pretty awesome The dev community has changed a lot. It isn't large, but it's very enthusiastic. We've seen Mature complex open-source projects come out not many of them But enough to to take note web row is a very interesting project that doesn't get as much visibility as I think it should It is a production grade rails app server, right? So you actually have a choice besides fusion passenger and you know thin and stuff So this is actually in use. It's supposed to be faster, but it doesn't have much visibility But it's there. There are mature projects coming out There was a certain degree of acceptance that GitHub is your resume. It isn't widespread yet But we are starting to see resumes come in from candidates that say, yeah, here's my github profile Like I think we've seen what like maybe three resumes on the last few months that that had and For us that means three resumes is like maybe 10 to 20 percent of the number resumes we get anyway We did Ruby gonf India the first Ruby gonf in 2010 We had 450 people show up like we originally planned for 300 and we were completely sold out and the amount was so high that Bumped it up to 450 and those sold as well. So there's a lot of traction There are a lot of passionate people involved now the dev community is growing and they're interested and they care and they actually take Steps to express their interest by traveling to you know a lot of them travel to Bangalore Like Bangalore is just one of the hub cities for Ruby Pune is another Delhi Chennai these places have a lot of Ruby devs and people from there travel down to Bangalore for Ruby con So I think in terms of an expression of interest and commitment. It showed a lot. What are the downsides? Maturity I think is a concern again. This is a subjective opinion. So take it with a pinch of salt but what we're seeing is that while people are passionate in care, they don't have that much in terms of Role models or examples to learn from pretty much the only thing they can do is look at open source work that exists already and try to learn how to For example, just drive the code. That isn't the easiest thing to do looking at open source code on GitHub say so maturity in terms of engineering practices still needs to come through I Think the community aspect of things is a bit of a weakness as well Because they're just isn't a culture of you know hopping on to IRC when you need to ask questions Or hey, I need to learn this new programming language. Let me join the mailing list This whole thing of going out on to the internet and engaging with the community that exists and talking to people in learning stuff That isn't there yet. It exists again But it and is growing but as a consequence learning is slow in the community like concepts and ideas take time to propagate across the board Right. So in a nutshell, that's that's our history, right? Ruby has gone from being a complete non entity almost a joke to being something that's respected and accepted and known It isn't a large community by any means because they're like thousands and thousands of programmers coming out of the colleges every year in India But there is a community exists. It's growing and they're very passionate So, yeah, that's it for the history. I'm going to ask the back to Niranjan for Yeah, so now we'll talk a bit about what it is to be like Services company specific in UB market in India So you have to understand one basic fact that you are always sold out Demand is far greater than what supply is available so Why is it so there are really few experienced developers in Ruby. It is like really small pool and Even small number of companies which actually do Ruby work Typically a particular Ruby project tend to be small like two developers three developers and Larger projects are there, but they're pretty rare So you don't get much larger projects, which means that whenever particular project winds up you have four to six people available And because of huge supply they get picked up immediately Another problem we have is hiring. It's very very very very hard okay, India is generating around 50,000 engineers per year and Irrespective of their specialization most of them actually wind up in IT industry so hiring actually Like going through resumes and trying to hire people is difficult. You might get one hire out of say 500 resumes if you're lucky, but That's difficult So the only solution we are suspect to this particular problem is actually creating a brand To attract good people essentially it's like creating a gravity well where in people will just concentrate and They'll just come to you and work with you Now this is a theory. We haven't seen any major services company in India actually doing that, but we are trying to give it a shot Now to make the problem worse You expect that Indian salaries will be matching the PPP ratio, which is like one-fifth of years like all of you know What is PPP? It's purchasing power parity. It's like How expensive you think things are when as compared to US and India say for example if you are buying a mobile application Which is $1 here and $1 is like, okay fine I'll just go ahead and buy it But now you converted into INR has 45 rupees, which is not a small amount Okay, but actual PPP for US and India is 5 so if it is like 5 rupees in India people will just go ahead and buy it so it's like It's not exact conversion from INR to US USD. It's more of How things are like if I want to go and buy a meal how expensive it is So yeah Considering one-fifth of PPP. We don't see salaries of Indian developers one-fifth of that equivalent to US developers To make matters worse, average annual increments for developers is between the range of 10 to 30 percent, which is huge and There's both of experienced developers. You don't see fine. You don't find developers with more than 10 years experience There is a huge social pressure because of which even though people love programming They have to move into management or something like that to keep people like people around them happy Okay, so that's the reason a lot of good programmers who really are passionate about programming are forced to move towards different roles Which means that we don't have Empty number of experience programmers and given the fact that around 10,000 around thousands of new Developers are joining the community every year. Whatever experience programmers we have they become even more valuable Now one problem with Indian community or software industries particularly right now is The number of years of experience is rewarded as against your skill set. Okay, so if you have Five years experience or eight years experience your salary will grow geometrically instead of a linear curve and It's never related to like how good you are at doing things like a grad really awesome grad Will still make lower than an average two or three years old experience developer So this is what I heard from couple of friends and what I gathered like your salary is Two times your number of experience in 100k. So if you're like four years experience, you're expecting around 800 Sorry, yeah 800k INR salary So which is definitely not one-fifth of what is relative US salaries more of one-third And this is what actually drives the billing rates as well like as a normal Indian software service company You would expect that the race will be one-fifth of what you pay in US Which is not true. You'd end up paying around one-third so That's what it is to sell services in India Work is not a problem. You're always oversold You have lots of work coming in but Attracting talent pool getting new people on board and making sure that you're maintaining your quality is difficult proposition Okay, so I'm going to now talk about the other side of the equation which is as a prospect of client You know what you can expect a lot of what what you'll observe as a prospect of client is sort of a reflection of the things that Ranjan Just pointed out as being sort of the underlying patterns in the industry itself So the sold out thing is is going to affect you as a client, right? Most of the people you're going to speak to are pretty much sold out if you go and Google for you know Like ten Ruby vendors in India to send work to and you go speak to them You'll find that a significant proportion of them are sold out So talk to many providers don't go and narrow your list down prematurely to maybe one or two because there's a very high probability That they just won't have people available Find maybe five six, you know something like that go speak to all of them at the same time So in a sense luck and timing matters because you basically have to catch somebody at the time when they've wound up a project and nobody again Has a great deal of visibility because most project cycles are you know With somewhere between a month four weeks and six months at the most so with with short project durations It means that there's a lot of uncertainty around When projects end and projects end for a lot of strange reasons fairly abruptly so People like companies don't have a lot of visibility. They can't basically tell you that you know We can promise you people in three months time. It's there's a lot of uncertainty. So luck and timing matters So the flip side of this is consequently Some companies do tend to make unreasonable promises and you can see where they're coming from because if you as a Client are coming to them and they have a lot of uncertainty around their business They do want to try to sort of lock you in for as long as possible and see if they can you know sort of get work But you have to also keep in mind that you know you need to you need to hedge your bets So so keep this in mind that people some people will make unreasonable promises so The other thing that you must keep in mind is capabilities vary So you need to research your vendors understand exactly which skill set where the skill skill set level lies what the level of delivery would be and based on that approach them so You need to understand not just the vendor, but also your work Consequently you need to understand exactly what it is that you're looking for in terms of Of the quality of the work if you're building something throw away like this is something that we have come across occasionally Which is that clients want to throw away software that you know does something simple that they can demo to maybe An angel investor or something and if the if the investors bite they'll come back for something You know more robust in such cases you probably don't need the most expensive or the highest quality vendor in the market and to state the obvious Price doesn't necessarily translate to capability or quality. So I guess that's obvious, but just keep that in mind To your homework. This is really really important dig. You really need to dig You need to go look at look at look at the open source work that people do you need to look at You know, you need to get references from those people follow up with those references talk to those people don't just you know Look at the names that say oh, this is the CEO of such-and-such a company. That's given them a reference. It must be good Go talk to those people if necessary if you feel still feel uncomfortable don't hesitate to interview It's not it's not unheard of to interview people who you're planning to hire for your project It's just good business sense So Don't think that you're being rude You do need to make sure that you you're getting what you think you're getting so don't hesitate to say I want to talk to your death if you're not technical yourself again Don't hesitate to go find somebody that can do this for you a broad spectrum of rates Again, this is a very broad spectrum of rates is between $10 an hour to $70 an hour This is this is pretty much the range that you can expect in India We ourselves used to bill at 58 on our last project before we quit to start this company And now we bill at around 30 and this is mostly because we're new and we're seeing growth in terms of about $5 of billing Per quarter, so we expect to be somewhere around 40 or 45 by the middle of next year The other thing is there was very little differentiation in terms of What companies claim they can do based on their websites just external observation Everybody claims this you know you go to the website. They'll say yeah, you know We do cucumber we do we do BDD we do agile we do open source. Here's our github link So you need to like this is just to emphasize the fact that you need to do your homework You need to dig you need to go in and find out exactly how skill these people are because external observation. Everybody looks more or less the same Okay, so let's say that you've done all of this. You've picked a vendor. Okay, how do you make sure that things work? Because distributed projects do have their own risks So doing one is you never Ever ever toss requirements over a wall Okay, do not ever just give somebody a spec and expect to come back in a month's time and have it built for you It may happen. There's a chance it may but frankly. I've never seen it happen. So Over communicate I can't emphasize this enough you must over communicate and everything you do anything you talk about Clarify details never make assumptions Talk frequently try to establish feedback loops Okay, frequent feedback is essential and especially essential given that you're looking at especially us to India You're looking at a 12-hour time differential So if people don't have enough context and go off on down down the wrong path You're looking at like maybe eight to 12 hours of wasted work that and that adds up over time One very good thing that we found and that we practically mandate these days is a daily stand up So you might want to basically say look guys I'm going to make sure that I have 30 minutes of my day free to do a stand-up with you and you work out a time That's that's suitable for both you and your vendor and make sure the entire team is there It shouldn't just be you know, there's this thing in India, which which you hear a lot, right? It's I it's called a single point of contact. It's it's almost a title Right on on projects avoid this single point of contact business Make sure that you're engaging with the entire team the entire project all the time Skype is awesome. Okay, this This company has removed the single biggest barrier to communication across time zones Use it use it extensively. Everybody uses it. Just make sure you're using it to squash all resistance to talking, right? There's a natural resistance to communication squash it use Skype talk and Skype videos even awesome This this is something that we realized over time Which is that video calls make a big difference? I have some of my former clients out there Whom we actually tried this with while we were at ThoughtWorks and We were doing normal voice calls wipe calls for stand-up and then we switched to actually doing a video conference with you know Like like the whole shebang and the difference was amazing like the amount of like the amount of trust that increased between Our client and us it was visible Intense situations where things were going wrong There was a lot less scope for you know finger pointing and tension like people were more focused on just solving the problem rather than you know Just sort of taking off and tangents and pointing fingers. I cannot you know in some in a Objective way say why it worked or why it worked better But just seeing people's faces and knowing what they look like and seeing the expressions on their faces when they talk It made a huge difference and no it isn't unreasonable to expect this right it may be new for the people you talk to like the vendors It may be new but insist on it and you'll get into the groove and everybody is happy after that Try to shoot for weekly iterations the only that one of the primary reasons is again besides the feedback thing is it ensures that you're setting a Fixed timeline with fixed drop points and those those timelines are short so if things are going off track you become aware of it, you know far quicker and This becomes important the context of the 12 hour gap So if things are going off track and you're not communicating At least you you will see you know where you are with a weekly showcase of what's being built This one's a bit iffy right it's important But it's very context sensitive so you have to be careful when you're tracking this because if you're saying that you force Force like 99% code coverage on on a project It isn't unheard of to find that your vendors is writing pointless tests just to get the stupid code coverage up So it is important you do need to track it, but be careful as to how you how you sort of Bring it up with your vendor because you don't want them to optimize for it solely at the you know To a ridiculous extent to not actually deliver value Try to get a prod or a prod like staging environment Prod like staging environment up on day one Sorry, I think that was with my my alarm ringing on Indian time So yeah, I keep odd hours anyway, so Try to get a product of a product like staging environment up on day one and make sure that whatever software is built can be deployed on day One even if it's just a skeleton Rails app for example because this sets the sets the entire sort of Pipeline in place start right from from the development to the deployment to the production You know it's all there and working and insist that your weekly showcases for at the end of an iteration happen on this Environment not of a dev laptop. This goes a long way to ensuring engineering rigor on the project Use a real project management tool as opposed to something like an issue tracker like Favour something like pivotal tracker or mingle over a Jira or a track simply because The the the kind of things that an issue tracker are geared towards They simply don't help too much when it comes to this kind of a situation But something like pivotal or or mingle gives you a lot more visibility and a lot more Context and depth to your stories and the way you you deal with it and it helps the devs too hugely And finally have realistic expectations off your off your vendors, right? You did your homework you researched them. You understood what they were there for and you hired them to solve a particular problem now Have these your expectations in a realistic manner if you hired the absolute cream Then you can have the highest expectations, but you know if you're paying $10 an hour and you expect TDD and all the rest of it It's not gonna happen. So it may well it may it's possible, but it's unlikely So yeah, that's that's basically the buy side of things to some things up This is largely a reflection of of the of the sell side Your your vendors are likely to be sold out and you should do your homework. That's the summary So I'm gonna pass the buck in a running for the next So now we'll talk a little bit about where we see Indian Ruby community growing in last sorry next five years Okay, so the thing is in India right now Nothing much happens online Everything is paperwork or your call and talk to people and get stuff done All the sites which are there which are doing online businesses are buggy ugly even applications like say a ticket booking system or Online trading application, you would expect them to be really robust and fast They're there, but they still need to grow So the reason for this is people today offer cheap software. They're very price sensitive But things are changing now. There are a lot of companies and services which are coming in which are actually disturbing the pattern Now in recent Past there's been explosion of number of small and medium business in India like startups not unjust technical But various consumer products as well and they understand that a good and stable software is going to increase the chance of success So the demand for quality software is rising locally We expect that in five years in coming five years the local Demand for product for good quality software is going to exceed the foreign demand And Ruby is ideal place for catering to this particular market While developers love Ruby a lot and they're really passionate about the language What makes it really interesting for business people and startups is it's 100% open stack. It's cheap It's available there and it has a rich ecosystem So that to do stuff they're on the number of libraries and using those libraries you can build things Instantaneously, you have to spend time in like figuring out. Oh, how am I going to integrate with a tile over rest API's is there? And Ruby is really good for building web apps rapidly and in iterations so because of all these emerging companies and startups overall community is moving towards high quality software and What makes it really interesting is Today's current Ruby community their focus towards quality and TDD and design aspects of the software really helps bring that into picture So we see in next five years the community growing from development perspective Technical capabilities as well as the business in India itself growing leaps and bounds Which gives us an opportunity to actually go in the market and build something out there. So that's where we see we heading Yeah, sure. If if there are any questions, we'd be happy to answer them. I see one one hand back there So that that's a subjective thing it varies from from company to company We generally do we generally have a very straightforward policy, which is that? Our customers own all IP With the exception of open-source software written for that project Which is if we needed to enhance any open-source software clearly that doesn't belong to us And if you to create new open-source software for that I guess that's something that we deal with on a case-to-case basis with our customers because sometimes it is to our customers Benefit to actually release some portion of what we built as open-source But otherwise usually the IP is entirely owned with our customers owned by our customers your legal recourse well truth be told That's a very difficult question to answer right because Like trying to take the legal route in India is really hard You could take the legal route in the US But effectively all you'd probably do with companies at the scale they are today is just kill the company nothing more It's not like you'd get anything out of it So yeah, there's no good answer like I'd love to be able to give you give you a good answer to that But that's all there is That said in the last few years. I've not noticed any such Issue like I do I am fairly well involved in the community and I haven't heard of a case where Where IP has been an issue? I should mention that the other approach that we are taking as well Which is if we see a great deal of potential in in the client we do go down the equity route Which is something we're exploring I'm not sure like we're currently working out the the legalities of that of investing in in say US business But yeah, that's probably an alternative where Your vendor would have a vested interest in seeing you succeed, but I'm afraid I don't have any good answers. I'm sorry I Saw another hand go up there at the back Sure The trend that we've seen is I Actually know if at least So well, of course this Pratik Nike, right? I mean starting there like Pratik was I remember Pratik was on the on the Bangalore Ruby list like Four years ago, maybe so there's definitely one person that I can point to that went all the way to the court But leaving this leaving the side. Let's just assume that he's on the sort of the edge of the bell curve. I I do know several people as included that have at least one patch submitted to Rails core and Among my Twitter social circle, I know of at least two people who are currently on the Rails project as I forget what the exact term for them is not contributors They so basically they look at they basically review tickets and say, you know Just verify the tickets and make sure that they're actually valid or if they're not valid close them So at least a couple of people who are somewhat involved in Rails and there is a small key So I mentioned web war web war is a very interesting project. There are a few others. There's a Networking library called packet so it exists, but I will say that I'm not I Wouldn't say that it is as prevalent as it could be like maybe Five eight ten percent of the existing Ruby community in India actually contributes actively to open source of semi actively But again, that's growing. So I clearly see a trend upward. It's increasing That does that I know that was rambling a bit, but did I answer your question? I hope yeah, I saw one more hand somewhere in the middle Just one second Not really like I've seen the whole spread right at least like my tolerance experience is probably a good example I've seen the entire spread from all the way from like plain simple Rock bottom crud apps to like I mentioned like one of the first apps was actually like a touch panel that played music and you know It was it was different had DSL's and stuff to core Banking applications world and Ruby which which didn't have a real competent really Which is a rarity frankly in I mean in the services industry So I've seen the entire spectrum run in India and so I guess not I guess everything pretty much works One thing that is a problem usually is that I can say is designers If you if you need a great UI and this is a problem We have this is something we tell our customers today Which is that guys, you know, we'll do the engineering part of it But for great design, you're gonna have to find your own people because we just it's just we haven't found anybody in India yet It's not that they don't exist. They do exist But again, it's a similar similar situation to hiring devs There's just few and far between and the really good ones are independent contractors. They have no reason to really join a company So I saw a couple of hands. So to add to what Sidhu just said that While community is very much there to build any kind of application But one thing you have to be sure of is if you are building domain rich application You have to really really break that communication barrier wherein you can talk to your vendor very frequently and make sure that they understand the Requirements you understand what they have understood. They are weekly deployments. They are weekly showcases and It's going into agile manner so that you know exactly where the project is going Otherwise it can go down the drain, but it's true for any product. It's not just Ruby industry as such So yeah, I saw a couple of hands here India's software industry strength has been more in the service side than on the product side Ruby and Rails is helping I Don't know about if it's helping the numbers, but we definitely seeing a lot more companies I I swear I've seen more rails product startups than anything else easily like if you go to Pune especially Pune is like a total hotspot for product startups that run off rails So yeah, I wouldn't I'm not sure if the numbers are really being changed in terms of the number of devs being involved But the number of businesses we definitely seeing like a huge number of startups that are That are like mostly on on rails in India like almost all startups in India are on rails Maybe that's I tend to exaggerate maybe not almost all but like a non-trivial number like everywhere Everybody I speak to like most of them do seem to be on rails. So yeah At the end of your presentation you talk about the way you see India growing into the future It's not like some really positive outcomes there And I mean I hope that happens excited to see that what could someone like myself or the other people in the room or the rest of the world do to help ensure that That India meets that success. So that's that's that's an interesting and a very good question So one of the things that we've wrestled with for a long time while we were consulting at ThoughtWorks now in this business is So I was actually wondering whether I should put this into the presentation I did and then it became kind of too long so but I'll talk about it in brief anyway which is that quite frankly India today is While it's it's a bit of a chance. It's like getting into a stock market. It's about to boom It's as simple as that, right? There is a chance that it may not But all indicators seem to say that it will and if you're in there and you establish yourself as a dev It cuts both ways one is that India currently has a dearth of experienced engineers Simply in terms of the number of people we have to pair inexperienced people with to learn from and I don't mean an experience in Terms of years right even people have a lot of years But who don't have experience with a particular platform the ability to find other experienced people who do have that Knowledge and then pair them off with these people. That's really low today So having experienced engineers from outside come in and in work with Indian engineers is going to make a huge difference because they are like the people there are really passionate They really care about doing stuff. Well, it's just that they don't have anybody to learn from so that will make a big difference And the flip side of it is because I am a bit of an objectivist Yeah, so the truth of the matter is while it's a bit chancey and For somebody quite bluntly from the first world to come to India It will change your lifestyle a bit Maybe even significantly but the the upside of it the potential upside of it is that should the market actually boom the way it will This is going to go through the roof like the amount of software that's going to be needed to support the Indian market is just insane like It's like everything that the US did since like 1980 to to now is going to happen over like the next 10 years There's going to be like an explosion and the and the good news is that a lot of what applied to First world economies that work there. We can already see working here. So we're seeing the equivalent of kayak Dot-com in the US is one of the most successful startups in India today easily and they're a list Ruby shop all right Amazon book sales flip-cart.com in India these guys have just Gone through the roof in 12 months flat 12 to 14 months and they're generating so much money It's insane and this is just scratching the surface So if you do move there for example, like that's my primary thing like which involves Considerable discomfort, which means, you know, you basically give up the first world move to the third world hoping that You know things are going to take off But if you do the upsides are insane potentially and I'm not sure if I ramble again, but I'm not sure fans of the question properly But yeah, that's my perspective