 He born and bred Jamal Mashburn. I'm the man. Yeah, you know it. Mashburn can't see the man. Thanks, I'm the man. Oh, that's right. An NBA All-Star, 11 seasons in the league. Jamal Mashburn joining us now. Jamal, we got to start right off the back, because the nickname Monster Mash. I love nickname origin stories, because some people give them to themselves and others are assigned. So there are two different stories. One, that you got it playing in Harlem. The other option, though, is something to do with Dicky V. So where did it come from? Well, I know Sweet Lou can attest to this, because he has the best nickname, in my opinion. You know, so I will go with Sweet Lou on that one. But for me, it actually started in Harlem. But as you know, when you get to ESPN, other people want to take credit for it. So that's what Dick Vautau did. It actually started when I was a sophomore in high school and I was playing in the tournament. And I think it was a... I forgot where it was at up in Harlem. And the guy on the microphone was just chatting and saying, Monster Mash. And then the next day, a reporter in the Daily News ran that as a caption and it just stuck from there. And then went to University of Kentucky, they would play that Monster Mash, a Halloween song and all these different things. And it just rolled from there. Oh, that's perfect. Yeah. Mash, I got to tell you this story. So I was supposed to play in the Rucker four different times. And every single time I flew in New York to play in the Rucker, it rained. So I don't think it was meant to be for me to ever play in the Rucker. I tried four different occasions and it rained for... You being a Harlem guy playing in the Rucker, man, you got to give me a great story about those days. Well, you know what, Lou? For me, I grew up right across the street from Rucker Park. So it wasn't actually a treat for me to play in the Rucker. I grew up watching, you know, when it was a pro-am at the end of the day. And it wasn't the EDC classic, which it turned into you were going there and watch pros like Mark Jackson, Ed Pickney and those guys. And I really played before them when they would have pickup games and different things like that. And then when I got a chance to play in the Rucker, it was a phenomenal experience. It was different. You had the guy in the microphone, you know, every time you do something great, they give you a nickname. Even though I already had a nickname, they kind of just piggyback off the Monster Mash and being a kid from Harlem, it was a special place to play. A lot of tradition. I'm surprised when you were going up there and they had those rainy days, they didn't have a rain outside. It usually was the Gaucho Gym. And I know Vince Carter played in the Gaucho Gym. So I know you retired now, my friend. We don't need you in Rucker Park. You just come be a witness to it. Yeah, that's done, that's out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. By the way, call me crazy, but I think the Rucker Park rims are a little bit low, Mash. I remember I played there one time and I was banging and easy out there. And I was like, do I got more juice or this rim slightly low? So let me tell you a little secret about that. You're actually correct. The basket that was closest to the street was actually lower and it's actually built on a slope, you know what I mean? So it goes downhill a little bit. So you're actually right. It was a little bit lower. And I remember back in the day, everybody used to go over there because they had to snack back rims and everything like that. And they were lower. So you get a chance to dunk on them before you can actually dunk on a 10 foot rim. So you're actually right. That's awesome. Mash, you played not in one of the craziest college basketball games. Some people say it's the best game where Ladiner hit the shot. Looking back on that, can you appreciate that game or is it still just piss you off seeing the clips? It comes around every March, you know? I can set my watch too when people start asking me about that game. You know, I was fortunate enough to participate in and I think it was the best college game that was ever played. And I think a lot of people agree with me on that. Even though there was a winner and a loser, people got to remember Duke back then was the Chicago Bulls of the Michael Jordan era. I mean, they were a rock star, a traveling rock star show with Bobby Hurley, Grant Hill, Christian Leightner, just to name a few. And Kentucky was coming off a probation at that particular time. And it was our first time in the tournament. So nobody expected a lot of us. And we went out there to compete. And I mentioned this before. You had two Hall of Fame coaches and Rick Petino and also Mike Shyshevsky. And it just felt like they took a step back and let the players play. And as you guys both know, that can be difficult for some coaches, especially at the college level. I know Lou, you never experienced that. But at the end of the day, a lot of coaches want to have their imprint on the game. And I think those two Hall of Fame coaches really step back and really allow the players to have their own input on the game, which was, I call it, it was probably one of the best pickup games I ever played in. It was just a free flowing. Everybody was kind of in his zone making plays. But it was a great opportunity, played in the old Philadelphia Spectrum, which is no longer around. So there's a lot of history attached to it. But every March, I get the call, what about that Duke Kentucky game? If he misses that shot, do you guys win the national championship? I would say no. And the reason why I say no is because I don't think we were prepared. People don't realize how emotionally high and low we were in one setting. I think we would have faced, I want to say would have been Cincinnati with Nick Van Exel, I think it was, or the Fab Five. I don't think we were prepared for them coming out of that game. And then the following year, we went to the final four and lost against the Fab Five. So I don't think we would have won the championship. Being in the final four, that would have been more impressive, but we weren't prepared to win a title at that particular point. Why are you so wise about it? I feel like most people will be like, yeah, no, we definitely would have won. Let's just keep it going. Sometimes wisdom brings you back to reality. So that's how I kind of position it. Yeah, exactly. Let's talk about USA Basketball, the select team, which was the college guys, and you beat the 1992 Dream Team. So take us back. What's it like to step on that court to look over there and see those guys and then beat them? Well, for me, it was, and I would say for the rest of us, Chris Weber, Alan Houston, Ronnie Rogers, Penny Hardaway, Alan Houston, I'm leaving a couple of guys off of it. You know, during that particular time in the 90s and also in the 80s, all kids wanted to play in the Olympics. And that was one of my dreams was to play in the Olympics. And I was disappointed that we didn't get that opportunity. But we got the call to practice against them. They shot us a ball and come and practice with us in La Jolla, San Diego. And our coach at the time or the select team side was Roy Williams. And he did a great job of just, you know, reminding us that, you know, they chose some other people, essentially, and to get the best out of the situation. So we stepped out in the court and we beat them the first day in the scrimmage, but they kicked our butt the rest of the six days. And the one thing I do remember is, you know, when you go to the starting circle and the jump ball circle and you look over and you got Michael Jordan standing on one side and then you got Scotty Pittman standing on another side. And then you got David Robinson jumping and you got Magic Johnson yelling out call signals and stuff like that. You know, it was intimidating, but also as a competitor and somebody that wanted to kind of see what it looked like, what the pros would feel like. It was also a litmus test to see where I was at. And I tell people, that was the day I got drafted, you know. It was, I came back to summer school. It was the end of my sophomore year. And then Coach Petino called me in his office. He said, after your junior year, you're going to be turning pro. You're going to be no less than a fourth overall pick based upon how you perform. So I credit that sequence of events for me to get drafted and also for me to realize that I could play at the professional level, you know, because you have no idea. You're in college. You can speculate. You can think about it. But until you get in live action and see the speed and the power and what you're up against, it's really different. It's just such a crazy visual, by the way. Okay, I have two follow-ups. Number one, did you guys run into Larry Bird at the hotel during any of this? Because everyone's always fascinated by what Larry Bird says to people. Did he say anything? Yeah. So my man Larry Bird, it was me and Chris Weber. We were coming into the hotel and we checked in. And as we were checking in at the front desk, they lead you down this hallway. And there's a security guard there that blocks off the passage for, you know, regular people to come in. So NBA and USA basketball had completely one floor. And so we're walking down this long hallway. And I say to Chris Weber, I say, man, that looks like Larry Bird. And the first thing you notice is how tall Larry Bird is. And he comes by and walks. He says, are you those college guys that we're competing against? He's like, yeah, I miss the bird. And he says, well, get some fucking rest. It's going to be a long week. And I'm like, wow. And you know, it's like, OK, you don't know what to say. It's like, this is Larry Bird. You know, how do I take this? You know, am I insulted? You know what I mean? It's like, OK, you know, Larry Bird, it's all good. But he was phenomenal. I mean, Larry Bird has always been one of my favorite players. And if you recall, he was dealing with back injuries at the end of his career, so he couldn't sit down. He had to lay down on the floor. And I remember a time. It was the first day we beat them. And Rodney Rogers had said something to Larry Bird. He was like, ah, you haven't had to jump shot since 88 or something like that. And I think magic hurt it. So the next day, and Lou and Chanley, I can appreciate this. The old NBA was if something was working, keep going to it. And I remember Larry Bird actually on the sideline calling out, all right, Rodney, one dribble, pull up right. And he'll do it, make the basket. Next play now, Rodney, one dribble, pull up left. Oh, I'm going to the basket now, high off the glass, left hand. And it was remarkable how Magic Johnson and Larry Bird connected. And just on those conversations and different things like that and the competitiveness, it really showed me how special Larry Bird was. Because if you can do that as an injured player, imagine how he was as a healthy player. So Larry is one of my all-time favorites. Lou, I can imagine getting your ass busted and someone telling you how they're going to do it right before. Correct. Chanley, you're exactly how they're going to do it. It's hurtful. And you shit about it. Yeah, can't do nothing about it. Can't do nothing about it. Another thing I remember about that was how good Michael Jordan was. Because when we would practice with him, we would practice somewhere else and then we would come in and watch them practice and then go scrimmage with them. And if we would sit down and watch and if you watched it and you knew nothing about basketball, you would like Michael Jordan. That dude with the ball head is the best player out there. And I remember Charles Barkley singing that Gatorade commercial while we were playing the game. Like everybody wants to be like Mike. And it was a phenomenal experience. Just such a good time as a basketball fan to be watching all this. All right, so Coach K went on to suggest later that perhaps maybe Chuck Daley threw the game. Is there any validity to that? There's no, first of all, he was the assistant coach. You know what I mean? Let's keep that in mind. And there was no way. The thing that I do remember was that we beat them and they called the game. So we didn't even get a chance to finish. I think they called it in the middle of the third quarter or the fourth quarter or something like that. And they took the scoreboard. They took the score down when the press came in. And everybody did their interviews and different things like that. So I think he was probably referencing. I think that was more for a glorified story and their participation and different things like that. But everybody was competing on that floor. So I don't see how Coach Daley had that much control to tell anybody not to do something because they were all playing. Michael was playing hard. All those guys were playing hard. To me, that was a little false. And you're describing the most competitive humans in the world. I don't see a world you tell them guys to take it easy. Yeah, I don't see a scenario where you like chill out, MJ. Yes. Get theirs off. Yeah, I don't see a world in that. No, I think that's part of it. Yeah, I don't think it happened. But in the next six days, the intensity ratcheted up. And it was, they were different. They were different. They were different for sure. Yeah. So you go from the highest levels, college basketball, and then you get drafted, you go to the Mavericks rookie season, a team that wins 13 games. What is that like, that sort of reality check? It's horrible. I would say that the first thing that I noticed was playing for the Dallas Mavericks is at the University of Kentucky, we flew private planes. And the Dallas Mavericks in my first year, we actually flew commercial. So that was the first different. Yeah, we were the Dallas Mavericks was the last team to get a charter plane at that particular time. So that was different. And then also too, what I recall is in the NBA game, and you too can appreciate this of being former players, when you're on a bad team, you know it's over in the third quarter at the end of the third. It's just like one of these things where you can't push past it and then guys are sitting on the bench talking about what we gonna do tonight. And then once that happens, all the floodgates open. And when you have about 50 of those of what we're gonna do tonight, ain't nobody showing up towards the end of the season because it's nearly nothing to play for. I gotta tell you, since then and now, Dallas has definitely gotten it together. Chela got it. They're coming. Listen, as a visiting player, their accommodations are A-1 now. What was one of your comment, welcome to the NBA moments. I'm sure with that season, you had plenty. Yeah, I think my welcome to the NBA moment was my first exhibition game because I held out, I think, for a couple of weeks or so in training camp and it was playing against Dominique Wilkins when he was with the LA Clippers and also Mark Aguirre. And realizing that I could play. I think I scored 12 points at that particular time. And as you guys know, once you get out there, you just kind of figure it becomes all about playing basketball. So that was one of my welcome to the NBA moments. And then also playing against Akim Olajuwon, watching him and his footwork and his post-play. It really showed me how much I had to work on my game throughout the off-season if I really wanted to have a long NBA career. So my welcome to the moment in the NBA was, if I'm gonna stay here, I gotta prepare every summer to get better. So tough rookie season, second season, Jason Kidd comes to Dallas and the triple J's were formed with you, Jimmy Jackson and J. Kidd. What was that like? And what was it like playing with J. Kidd? I'll tell you what, if we could have sold tickets to practice to watch us play with Jason Kidd and watch people get hit in the head with balls because they didn't know the pass was coming to them. Phenomenal passer, one of the fastest guys in the end, 6-4 at that time, 2-15 or so. One thing I do recall about Jason Kidd was he had trouble with the points part of it in a triple double. I remember there were games, multitude of games where he'd be like eight points, 15 rebounds, 12 assists and things like that. And I'm like, J. Kidd, you can't get that scoring. But he was a phenomenal teammate along with Jimmy. It was a good time. But I think at that time we had Dick Mada as a head coach and we were on the upswing. And I think Roy Tarpley was reinstated. So I had a chance to play with him. Phenomenal teammate. But Jason was the guy that stirred that drink and Hall of Fame career. I mean, you can see that coming into the league and obviously improved his shooting. But he had trouble on the scoring side of the statue. He would have way more triple doubles under his belt if he could have hit a couple of free throws or a jump shot when he played with me. Had to earn that J. Exactly, yeah. OK, so I'm glad I got this question. We only got a few seasons of three Js, which is unfortunate. And of course us civilians, we blame Tony Braxton. So can you shed some light on what happened here? Why didn't we get more of you guys? I think it was a combination of things. The story behind that was we were in New York City. And I think one of my other teammates was dating one of the Braxton sisters or something like that. And me being from New York, I went home and hang with my people. And I think Jimmy and Jason were waiting to go to the studio. And it never actually transpired. And then something happened with Tony Braxton was on a radio in Dallas. And she had an album coming out called Secrets. And they asked her a question about Jimmy and Jason. And I hold the buckle. And she kind of amplified it, which she said, I don't kiss and tell. And it was kind of promoting the album and different things like that. Great for her, but bad for us. You know what I mean? And I wish we would have had more time together. I think at that time, Don Nelson, senior came in. And he was general manager or the head coach. And he traded Jason first to Phoenix. And I went second to the Miami Heat. And then I think Jimmy went to the New Jersey Nets, I believe. And I would say, for me, that would have been a hell of a three-headed monster if we had got some time to spend together. And I think what we missed the most was veteran leadership at that particular time. We were all trying to plan our flag and NBA and trying to tell people who we are and what we're capable of. And it never really materialized in anything long term. But we were a unit to be dealt with. But we had no veteran presence and no leaders to show us exactly how to be a professional in the NBA. And we had to learn on the fly. And that's hopefully difficult for young players. You go from Dallas to a loaded Miami Heat team alongside Tim Hardaway, Alonzo Morning. This is actually around a time where I began to be an NBA fan. Before that, I was in the college basketball heavy. So around your Miami Heat stint, that's when I began to pick up on pro basketball. What was that like going from Dallas to a team like the Miami Heat at that time? So a funny story about that. I actually requested. I got to know one of the minority owners. They had sold the team. And I think Ross Perot Jr. took over the team. And one of the minority owners lived in my neighborhood. And I knew they were going in a different direction. And we built a relationship. And I said, hey, I think I want to move on from here. And he said, Jamal, you've been great. Give me a list of teams that you want to go to. And I said, Miami Heat and also the Indiana Pacers. And the reason I chose those two is because Larry Brown was the head coach at the Indiana Pacers. And Pat Rowley was at the Heat. And I was looking for stability at that particular time. I was coming off a knee injury. I was one of the first guys to have microfraction knee surgery and still continue to play but lost a lot of athleticism after that surgery. And when I got to the Miami Heat, I give Pat Rowley credit for really teaching me how to be a professional basketball player. What's required, you know? And what I mean by that is being able to show up on time, ready, prepared to go. And as you guys know, moving through a 82 game season, exhibition games and playoffs, that can be awfully difficult to do, especially if it's nobody showing you the ropes. He was one of those coaches that his thing was, how can we get 1% better? And he would also explain to me, why does the 1% matter? And he would sit me in his office at Jamal. There's a difference between shooting 39% from three and 40% from three. Here's what your paycheck will be. So Pat Rowley always kept it a professional. He kept it 100 with me. He was always honest with me. I'm a season ticket holder now at the Heat. And so I go to a lot of games and see him in that president's box and different things like that. He's a lot more calmer now than he was when he was coaching me. But we have a great relationship, but playing with Alonzo Morning, Tim Hardaway, we were a close-knit group. We had a chance, but we lost to the Chicago Bulls in the Eastern Conference Final the first year I got there. And then for some reason, we will always match up against the Knicks in the playoffs after that. I don't know if that was TV related or what it was, but every year, no matter if we were a one seed or a seed, the Knicks was in our sights. All right, good. I'm glad you brought up the Knicks. Oh, sorry. I had Microfraction 2015. How the hell did you come back from that? Because I still can barely get out of this from it. Yeah, it was one of the things for me is that, you know, I was probably in my third year and I really had to figure out what type of player I can be while nursing that injury. And as you know, there's no explosiveness. You can't push off. You just can't do the same thing. So if you go back and watch any film on me, my game changed a little bit from going to the basket to being a mid-range guy, essentially, you know? So for me, it was one of those things where I had to evolve as a player because I was physically limited in what I can do and cannot do. So I couldn't work out as much in the off season as me was playing a lot of pickups. So I had to regiment my workouts to a certain degree because my knee would swell up. But I was able to survive and become an all-star in my 10th year and I think I'm one of the few players been able to persevere through that injury, but it changes your game for sure and changes how you walk, how you run, pain and different things like that. So it was a lot of perseverance and a lot of thought into how can I stay in the NBA while being a different player that came in. So you mentioned the Knicks because in the 90s, you guys had four consecutive playoff situations. I mean, with you, I don't know how you guys got so lucky, but kids today, I mean, we're always looking for the next big rivalry. And you think back to actual rivalries like this one. So if you could explain what a real rivalry in the NBA feels like because the, I mean, we have the Jeff Van Gundy Alonzo morning image, like things happened here. What was that like to be in the middle of it? You know, there was a lot of backstories that we won't talk about between individuals that made it a rivalry and there were, it was also Pat Rowley who also coached the Knicks and went down to Miami. And then also to be honest with you, I mean, Miami has become the sixth borough of New York City essentially, you know, not just after COVID, but even when I play, you probably have a lot more Knick fans in the arena than you would have Heat fans because the Heat organization is still a young organization, but also too, what I think is makes a good rivalry when both teams are winning, you know, and there's something to play for it. It feels like a college atmosphere more than anything, not quite Louisville, Kentucky or Indiana and whoever you wanna put in that and that a robbery situation, but it's closer to a college atmosphere and it becomes competitive, but also too, playing against Larry Johnson and Charles Oakley, you feel it in the morning, you know what I mean? And it's a very interesting, I still talk to Charles Oakley on occasion when I see him down in New York, we very rarely talk about the rivalry or anything like that, but a lot of those guys have been good friends, good competition and everything like that. So I think it takes winning, it takes tenacity and also a lot of other backstories that people are personally involved with that makes it unique. We're playing the Van Gundy, just watching Van Gundy go out and then disappear in human bodies is like my favorite part to watch over and over again. Jamal, I don't wanna let you go, I know you're doing something very important, so I wanna make sure we touch on that before we let you go here, but the colorectal cancer campaign, the awareness, what do you got going on there? Well, I partnered with Exact Sciences to keep awareness or to share awareness with people who are 45 and older to get screened. You can go to boxoutcoloncancer.com for more information, but why it's dear and near and dear to my heart is my mom in my 2003 All-Star season was diagnosed with colon cancer. And if we were to screen it early, we probably wouldn't have gone through certain obstacles in the healthcare system with her. She was in remission for 18 years, passed away, not from that, but from something else, a heart condition, pre-COVID. So anything that I can do to honor her and her experiences and to share awareness and to let people know that this is preventable if you take care and get screened in the proper way, you can live a long, happy life and it won't be to the detriment of you. And if you don't want to do it for yourself, do it for your loved ones that you want to be around for some time. So that's my personal connection and that's what I'm up here doing. So anytime I can spread awareness and things that have happened in my particular life and share with other people. And also Anna Helen Mashburn, who was near and dear to my heart, I'm a single child and she was a single mother. And so I do everything in her honor as I move forward in life. Very important stuff. And you're right. It's one of the ones you just can check for. So just go, go do it. We appreciate it, Jamal. Can listen to stories for hours. Thank you so much. We appreciate the time. Thanks y'all. Have a great one. Good talking to you guys. All right, we'll be back. We'll run it back in a minute.