 Hello and welcome to the panel for the framework of the RC3. It's not about technology, but it's about culture, about the club culture. And we want to have a discussion about the leading culture or culture light in Germany and how modern is that word that is being used. And we have interesting speakers here. And we want to evaluate what the status of the club culture and cultural recognition of that culture. And especially during the Corona crisis, there is a special new presence. Depending on the state of the club culture, the cooperation may be different and political communication. And of course, economic support for culture that can be received by different venues. And we wanted to make this topic more public. We are club culture, and this club culture is a project that I want to show you today. And the Federal Association of Clubs has initiated that along with the Chaos Computer Club and the live Combinate in Leipzig and the Club Combinate in Hamburg. And we want to contribute to making a positive image. And we want to show people what club culture is because there are some strange ideas. People thinking about discotechs, maybe although that's something completely different. And we want to enlighten people in the positive sense. I am Cordula from the live Combinate in Leipzig. And I want to introduce the experts and the speakers. And hello, you are a musician in Leipzig. Do you want to introduce yourself? Yes, I try to be brief. I am in Leipzig here in my little box, in my lockdown box. And I am a musician, a DJ, and I create culture, and I am an actress, educator, trainer. I do all the things that I can't do right now. It's a perfect choice of profession. I am Bertolt, who is a concert agent and author. And you also have a very precise look at the topics. Would you introduce yourself? Yes, I am Bertolt Zelliger. I organize tours and concert tours in the all of Europe. I talk to the residents. I have done Patty Smith and many others for 32 years. I am also writing books and essays, mostly about the music economy, but also about classical music and everything that goes with it. My special look is especially on the music economy. So, thank you very much. Pamela, you are the chairperson of the Club in Berlin. And the Federal Umbrella Organization and also organized the Gretchen Berlin. Hello, I am Pamela and you basically said everything. More than 20 years, I organized a club with my partner. And for 15 years we've had a club in Berlin and now have been gentrified away. And that was one of the reasons for one of the bases for my political work. And for nine years now we have the Gretchen and more or less one year without being able to do anything. That's the way it is since the 13th of March. Last but not least, you are the author of Lost in Sound of a Book about the EasyJet set. And you also work for The Spiegel as a club culture. And all my life I have been going out all my life and have always been interested in city development. And from this constellation 1990 I came to Berlin and looked at the development of the city after the fall of the Berlin Wall. I experienced that very intensely. And then the book came out from that which are very important for what we are talking about today. The development and subculture for example in some cities like Berlin and perhaps similar in Leipzig is very intense. And how this is shown, this connection. And I wrote the book about that. Okay, thank you very much. And I would like to say at the beginning, I don't know exactly if the format that we're trying to do today, if this could be called a panel discussion, although we have a panel full of experts, but we don't have a lot of time for discussions. So maybe it's just for perspectives, for views of this topic, which are illuminated. And then maybe we hopefully have some time for discussions, but we look forward to your questions then afterwards. So as clubs are culture, we want to talk about that clubs are their own branch of culture and make that public and shed more light on it. And in the Bundestag, in the federal parliament, there is now a change in the bylaws. And maybe Pamela can tell us best what's going to happen because you have been in parliament in this subcommittee. Yes, I was in the building development subcommittee together with two other colleagues of mine. And it's really if you operate a club, the building used by law is really an unword. It's really something that you don't know about anything. We create culture and arts and we operate clubs because we love music, because we are on fire for music, for the social things that we think we can do for society. We bring people together and present art and culture. That's what we want to do and why we get up every morning and what we work for. And Tobias already talked about that a bit. It's not as easy today as it was maybe in the 90s. I came to Berlin in the 90s and 97 started operating a club and we never had any problems at the time. If you want to open a club, then you look for a location where you want to be and where you can develop. And we don't disturb anyone because we are working at nights and make the night in today. And in Berlin it was easy to find these places, especially in the 90s. And then we could more or less do what we wanted to do and develop this culture and give a lot to people. But because cities change for different reasons, in Berlin it is, for example, the city becomes denser. More people go to Berlin and they need to live somewhere. That's one thing. And the capital if you want to so are the investments. And so you can earn a lot of money in Berlin if you invest in housing. And the city becomes more narrow and dense. And so that's in Prenzlauer Berg that happened. We have been the victim of a gentrification in a place that there weren't any buildings. There was just a car maintenance. And there were no problems with neighbors. And suddenly there were buildings were there and suddenly there were residential blocks. And of course that was a problem then, obviously. And when that happened, when we learned about that, there was 2007 I think for the 2010 World Cup in South Africa. And we heard about it and it must have been a mistake, which can't really have happened. We've been there for so long and there can't be residential buildings now. And they can't build their residential houses because we're already there and we're doing a lot there. But residential blocks doesn't work. Well, the approval has been given for residential and there's no protection for existing businesses. So they didn't even say they were sorry. And we were confronted with that. And in the end on the political way we won and we could stay there. But the result is the same. There was still residents and we were loud and it didn't work out. So protection for existing businesses. And they could just kick someone out and nobody was interested in what we were offering to people. And that was the first thought that we had in my head. That it's really not okay. I'm not against residential places. But you have to look at the city from different points of view. So you need to protect cultural institutions because that doesn't work by itself. So that was the seed. And we looked for another location and we found one. And we only took it because it was an economic area. Because the new residential blocks were far away and you can't build residential houses in an economic area. And opened the Grötchen in 2011. And two years later we learned that the premises were going to be sold to the person offering the most for whatever reasons. And then we might leave perhaps because the rents would be too high. And also developed into residential buildings. We thought so much that we wouldn't disturb anyone. That we really had the right place and could be there in harmony with our surroundings. And then this happened again. And then we came together with political initiatives who didn't like what happened either. And so someone with a lot of money can buy something that in the end is very expensive. And so move away and push away lots of people. And I started thinking about what we could do. And came into contact with politicians who also thought about that topic. And in the city something has to be done to protect the culture and the places of culture. And create a protection mechanism for economic operations like other shops for example. And to the tenants for economic enterprises is complicated. And for clubs there is no protective measure because clubs in this building use bylaw have no place there. And there are ISO 1D standards. And as a club you are a place of pleasure. And you are about as valuable as a whole house or a casino. But they're all. Yeah, Oprah's theaters are treated as places of cultures and we feel a little bit marginalized. And that is why we said we need to change something. Because when these definitions in the regulations were created club culture didn't exist as it does now. It's more of a new phenomenon. So this isn't reflected in the loyalties yet. And we also realized that well city administrations are more or less bound by regulations and paragraphs and articles. And it all seems very bureaucratic. And in Berlin we often have the problem that they're really engaged and committed people at the authorities. But they can only do so much against investors for example who just sit on all the money. And sometimes even the authorities can't help us even though they would want to. And this classification just tells us where in which parts of the city we're legal and where we're not. And for other parts of the city we need special permissions. So even if we find a location that would be very good to open up a club sometimes it can't open up a club because of those regulations. And of course no club owner wants to go somewhere where there's not even where no one lives and no one wants to go party. But often the regulations in construction law force us to do so. And official cultural places like of course in theaters can have their locations wherever they want. So we would like to have those same rights. That still wouldn't mean that in the end we could have our locations where we want to but it would be a step in the right direction. But it's also about appreciation of our work because we curate programs with very much detail to attention. Same as theaters and operas do. So we don't do less work. We just do different kinds of music but they aren't better or worse than opera music for example. Or classical music. And that is also why we don't want to be labeled as amusements. Institutions. So the committee we just talked about was very special because it incorporated politicians from all parties and all political directions. So all the democratic parties involved were very much on the same page in what concerns this topics. And they were all on the same page about that something needs to change. So we signed a petition. But at the moment of course we're having difficulties because of the ministry of Horst Seehofer from the German conservative CSU. But still I think it's about time for a change and I hope that politics will wake up. Yeah thank you for that contribution and thank you for your fantastic work and endurance. I have some other questions prepared for that and we'll come to that later. But let's switch to Bert who wrote different books and articles. Very critical articles on music industry and the cultural struggle. So you also talk about those distinctions in between different branches of culture. Yeah I think you're hinting towards E and U which is a distinction I very much criticize because it comes from the late 19th and early 20th century. Maybe we should enlighten our audience what does E and U mean. E is so called serious music and U is so called entertainment music which is something that is still applied even though it's obviously ridiculous. For example on Sundays and on special holidays you're not allowed to play U music so entertainment music. For example on Good Friday you're allowed to play classical music but you're not allowed to play party music which is absurd. But unfortunately it is still being applied. I rather like to differentiate between museum culture, classical culture and contemporary culture and I don't mean that disrespectively classical. It's not contemporary. For example what is played at the opera house. This is what I call classical culture and museum culture and I also deem this music very important. But they already have many rights that contemporary culture and contemporary music doesn't have. So modern music, dance music, hip hop, jazz, everything that's contemporary and this music is hardly supported with public funds. So there's a huge imbalance there and the culture that Pamela described is well marginalized somewhere between prostitution and casinos. It's deemed something that is completely renounced. So I would make this different distinction which I just mentioned and built on that. I created a proposal that would protect other kinds of music, many more kinds of music and entertainment and culture that are being supported at the moment because I am of the opinion that all kinds of music and entertainment need to be protected. Nobody would dare to demolish like our big Berlin opera houses or the big concert hall that was just built in Hamburg but the same happens to clubs all the time. We have that problem in clubs. They are endangered all the time. They can basically be closed down any minute if a judge decides that another building is more important. So we need laws that protect culture and entertainment but we also need financing to do that. But because clubs are also being crowded out by high rent fees that nobody can pay and that also destroys cultural space. So we also need financial protection for our club culture which would also protect cultural space. And I still think that all sorts of cultural entertainment institutions are worthy of protection cinemas as well because they enrich our lives. Coming back to what we started with, the E&U categories, how long has hip hop and techno been around? I think it's been for three or four decades at least but still we're being marginalized and crowded out. That just can't be. We need equal rights for all forms of culture and entertainment and we need that encoded in the law. We need that for contemporary institutions as well as for classical ones because they also provide a sense of community and belonging. So give it, describe what is happening as a sort of development. Yeah, we need that process. What Pamela just mentioned, mentioned. It's very important but the fundamental problem is that while clubs are being closed down, there are initiatives of neighbors against the club. I think we need to fight for a common cause. We need to get together and solidarize. It's not just about clubs, it's also about solo freelancers in the musical and entertainment industry. We all belong together and we must secure the space that we need to do our work. And it's very important that we have all those initiatives that call our club culture into the conscience of our politicians ending awareness. Speaking of solo freelancers, I'm a solo freelancer and you have a very hard time at the moment. So as a musician, how do you feel about this marginalization and injustice? Well firstly, thank you for your contributions. I've been listening very carefully. Before your question, I have an announcement to make. After the talk, you will have the opportunity to witness some live art. After this talk, we have recorded a session from our association Clubhouse which is also affected by gentrification by the way. We're having that same situation in Leipzig at the moment. So coming back to your question, what disadvantages am I experiencing as an artist, a freelancing artist? Yeah, I'm not taking seriously or less seriously. I'm being underpaid. But you're all seeing the situation and I have to mention it. So the clubs being crowded out are just the locations where I present my art and I don't know where to go. I don't know where to show and present my work. There are less and less locations in Leipzig and Berlin. You can see them being eradicated from the map. Around the corner from me, you can hear a bulldozer tearing down a club just mentioning it. I have concrete fears of being booked less, being underpaid, not having work. I'm a protagonist in the marginalization of lower paid jobs. Of course, I want for clubs to be funded publicly because that would enable me to be more creative, to focus on my art and not have to worry about bringing food on the table. So yeah, I just have to mention Corona again. I'm sorry. It started in March. Sorry, I have an echo here, so I'm going to fix that. Many people working at the opera could go into short labor. I'm not a fixed term DJ. I don't know if that even exists maybe in the cruise ship industry but that's not my thing. You don't have that in clubs. You don't have a fixed term employment. It's just, it's fee based. It's based on very short term employment. In the end, if you have a club concert, maybe five people are fixed term employment and the rest is all freelancing. What else happened if we couldn't play anymore? You could have an application for being reimbursed for fees that you couldn't collect. Of course, I didn't have any real paper contract. I had thousands of WhatsApp messages and flyers. That's how our business works. I didn't have anything really to show, although I had several appointments. About recognition, I really need to talk about this. What I really found very exciting in the lockdown, that now you become very creative because you have nothing else to do as an artist because you're sitting at home. But I know people that went into a depression in the last nine months because you really took away our identity because I identify with being this artist. And I was really shocked how many people, I knew of people I didn't even know, saying that, oh, just look for another profession, look for another job. You go to Porsche and assemble cars or something like that. And even when they talk to me, yes, this is the job. In the background, music is running. And even if one of my sets was playing in the background, it was really a wonderful example to show. It is being used, right? Electronic music culture. But there's no valuation. It isn't really highly regarded. It will tell people to just do another job. And if I hadn't done what I did, there wouldn't be any music for you, right? And you can only afford to make this music if you have live gigs and just produced music. With produced music, you can't really earn a lot. What brings money is live sessions with all the freelancers. You need clubs and you need people who work there. You need people who give identity to the clubs and then you get your fees. And that makes you able to afford a production, a music production at home. And if it starts up again, you can't really afford being creative because you have to earn money or you have to look for another job. And yeah, that's what I wanted to say about that. And another thing that's important, what I think really interesting is if only the big clubs survive, that's my own scenario that I'm creating now. After Corona, only the big clubs will be there, which I find really sad as an artist is that we really don't have any way to look for young people that just start, all people have started in small clubs and nobody came to the world already big and famous and we all stumbled and some became big and some didn't. But there's only a few clubs and people tell me, oh, there will be some clubs and some festivals, but then we will all be at the same parties. And there's only the big names. I'm afraid only the big ones will be booked and for me it's a big disadvantage because I like to be inspired from new artists. I want to be in very different lineups so not only white men can make techno, but there's diverse young people coming up and I'm afraid after Corona they won't be there anymore. And then we'll just stagnate and the club culture as it is now, we will bury the culture that we have now and I really don't want that. And I'm really annoyed that people just don't know that you can negotiate societal topics on the dance floor. But important societal things are negotiated on the dance floor. There's democracy happening and people don't know that this will be missed and will be missing and there will be a vacuum and that's what happens right at the moment. And for example, engagement, social engagement and I've played on solo parties because I couldn't go rescue people from the Mediterranean. So I play on parties and solidarity parties and clubs are needed for NGOs and societies in which society do we want to live where this isn't possible anymore. So I talked a lot, but I'm really down. This brings me really down. And yes, thank you. That was very insightful because there are so many different levels, different layers of meaning in the club culture. I can also say there are support programs where you can apply as a musician, but I'll just be thrown out at the morning because I'm making music or music. I make this non-serious music because I can't apply for most of these programs. And it's really unfair. And I'm not sure that all musicians of the so-called high culture know this or some of them are really unaware that there's a big difference. So what happens to us now? So we are discriminated against. Yes, but we are not football clubs that we are not fighting against each other. We make different kinds because we want to reach different kinds of people. Now I'm done. Thank you. And this about distinction between this serious and non-serious music. There are even tax laws making the distinction between that. And we're talking to Tobias and you did the expert opinion for the court case. And I want to talk about briefly what it was about. The Bergheim was going to court that they had to pay the normal high tax rate because if you go to a normal classical concert, you only pay the low tax rate, the low vet rate. But if you go into a techno club, you have to pay the high tax rate, the 19% because it's not culture and that's where it is a normal tax rate. And it's 12% different and can be quite a lot that you have to pay more. And so changing that could make the club culture a little less precarious, a little less endangered. And Tobias, you really made a positive turn in this court case. And now it has really been decided in the highest instance. Do you want to talk about a little bit about your arguments and your pleterie? It's really completely simple. The central question is what all my other speakers here have said, including Bertolt, the difference between entertaining culture and so-called serious culture. And the tax law, you can read what it means. You can use the lower tax rate if the culture is a cultural event, but if it is, for example, similar to concerts and theaters. I don't know the exact phrasing, but these are my words, but that's basically what it says. And the Bergheim came to me to write the expert opinion and because the tax office knew about me about the book and they used my book to say because the Bergheim, to argue why the Bergheim was an amusement institution and not culture. And the people of Bergheim asked me if I was so ambiguous in my book if I really wanted to clear it up from my point of view. And then I did that. And I said that the argument of the tax office was wrong. And the tax office said that's how people think in offices. They say in the Bergheim there's no stage and therefore it isn't reminiscent of a concert room, doesn't resemble a concert room. And there's nothing specific that starts and stops and then there's applause. And people don't look at the stage the entire time or maybe they talk to each other or walk around and be somewhere else. It's different than a classical concert. But my argument is, well, that may be, but the deciding factor is the core of the event, whether people applaud or not, doesn't make a difference for enjoying the music. Whether people dance or not also doesn't make a difference if it's about enjoying the music in this specific case, how you enjoy the music. The reason people go there is because it's that they want to hear particular music. They look at who's playing there, but some maybe don't. But the most people are interested in the specific music and the specific event. And in the end I wrote that whether it is a techno set or if it's a mala symphony, that the emotional effect is there in both types of music. And I was there as a witness at the financial court because the judges wanted to ask me and I explained to them that it was quite funny actually and very interesting. Because, of course, we said it's already a big thing and it's very important because we have to deal with a lot of lack of knowledge, a lot of ignorance. But I like these judges. They really wanted to learn. They really wanted to know what's going on here and what's happening in this club and how do you get in. And they wanted to know. They wanted to know it all. And so is this a cultural event? Is it a cultural event or not? And I never doubted that in the final instance they would decide the way they did. And I believe that this construct that they used is completely artificial and cannot really stand up to reality and we really have to bring it up to current contemporary views. And it's really very fundamental to derive questions about serious or entertaining culture. But I think there is a difference between classical culture and contemporary culture. And I think that subsidies and funding should be different because it's quite different. The passion is very different and contemporary culture is much about the passion that people want to have experienced something right now. And that was always the idea why I went out at night. That's what I wanted at that moment. This was my present. And I think it's something else than this museum culture or classical cultures. And I think that what Pamela said is centrally important. And I think it's really, really important when we talk about building bylaws. And they are enabling laws and that as far as possible you should treat everyone equally. Because everything we said so far is all the people in the subculture working in the subculture want to be treated equally. They don't want to be treated worse. And it's really complicated. And treating completely equal isn't possible. There are some degrees of freedom. And there are some risks. Obviously, sure, there's always that. But we need to have more equality than previously. And I also think what is very, very important. I'm not totally pessimistic. As all my other speakers here, perhaps sounded as an observer, I say this. And I think in the coming months, there will be a radical change in the structures in the cities. And shops will reopen. And it's really hard questions. What kinds of inner cities do we want? And I think this replacement process in the previous years that went into a certain direction, this will continue in a certain way. But lots of things will change. There will be free areas. And will we be able to define the conditions to make rooms for culture from these free places? And I think this is essentially important if we're talking about the future of culture in cities. Corona was a big advantage for the online trade. And some of that will go back into the inner cities. But not all of it. And the question is, what do we want to have in the inner cities? What do we want? Do we want to have dead areas? Or do we want living areas? And these building bylaws questions are so important because so much will change in these areas more than we can imagine now. And all the shops are still under the protective umbrella of federal funding. But when they are turned off, there will be lots of bankruptcies. It's not good for anyone who is affected. But I don't think it can be changed. But in a very different way, we'll be very exciting and give new opportunities then in the 1990s, for example, in East Berlin, where the ruins, the empty buildings, where you could just grab the rooms. But they will empty rooms and you can give them to chains, to economic chains, or you can keep them empty, or you can perhaps try with the responsible people in politics at the offices, at the administration, at the landlords, the owners. And you can enter into a dialogue with them, which will be very complicated and it will be competitive. But I think we have to really try to do big things here. So you think we should get subcultures to the inner cities? That would be an exciting picture. Yeah, that's a possible scenario. Or it could be very different. My experience is that the worldwide power of the Berlin Nightlife and the visibility that was never about being allowed to do something, it was about people taking certain freedoms and certain rooms for themselves. In the 90s, it wasn't easy either, and it needed skills, different skills than we need today, but I still remember what it was like. It wasn't just going into an empty storeroom and setting up a turntable. No, they had their own difficulties, but they just did. You've got to start somewhere. As I said, today the circumstances are very different, but I can't imagine that there will be an end to the club culture. Maybe there will, but I don't think so. People always find a way. It's a basic human principle. Humans get together and do something, built something. It will always be like that. Do you just have to create a framework where it's possible? I think it's very interesting that everyone who sits here has similar opinions that the coronavirus crisis is also a crisis that deals with rooms and replacement. That this is a very determining factor, and that culture is very important here, and to define what culture is. Well, things get lost that will never be replaced. So we were talking about protection of cultural spaces, also financial protection. Maybe, while coming back to the financial protection, you're always talking about specific programs. Well, no, I have nothing against specific programs, but I'm also not a fan of state-funded subcultures. I think when looking at subcultures, it's very important what Bias just said. Subcultures are created where people get together and who want to contribute to society, who want to create something that didn't exist before, something valuable. And those people don't just wait for the funding improvement. Every large club started small at some time. They just started doing their business at some point. I think empowerment is very important and doing things because you are fundamentally convinced of certain things. And I'm optimistic in the end. I think subculture has an immense power in natives, and that will survive. But on the other hand, of course, I have very specific worries. I think that many clubs and concert halls won't survive this crisis. Solo freelancers, musicians, people working in the background as well. So for me, it's about if I can use the word humus again, like we need to have a bedrock where cultural institutions can thrive. Whether it's by construction laws or funding or specific programs. Like unemployment insurance, you just need to provide a foundation that we can work with. The rest is up to us, and that's our opportunity. Yeah, absolutely. Kamala, you wanted to say something, and I would give the last statement to you. Yeah, I just wanted to say, as was mentioned before, I have a problem with the term subculture. But what differentiates us from classical cultural institutions is that we do it all ourselves. We're doing such an effort, and we love doing it. We want freedom, freedom to create. The only problem is time, because if rents are rising, we need to make more money that we can invest. And that takes us into commercialization, and that is a problem, because it endangers our cultural freedom and output. And it hinders us from spreading our work and giving it to younger people, so passing it on. So we're very niche. We're trying new things, trying new music. And this is where it all interlinks, what we've been talking about. That we need opportunities to accept funding. Actually, we don't want funding, we want freedom. So it's about taking the right measures. Yeah. Thank you for that final statement and conclusion. And also for interlinking the different areas we've covered today and topics. It's a very large and diverse biotope. And so many occupations and jobs are tied to it. I want to invite you all to look at our blog. We can read about all the milestones in the, I could call it a clash of cultures, dramatically. But we're giving regular updates, and you can read up on it all. So yeah, Pamela, you're going on vacation, have a nice one. And thank you to everyone who contributed. Thank you for taking part. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Hi. Nice to have you here. You just saw the podium and I'm happy to have our participants here for some Q&A. We have Pamela, Cordila, Tobias. Nice to have you here. Hi. Hello. Yeah, you had a very intense talk there. So currently do you have anything completely planned from your initiative? And why are you here? Tell us about that. Yeah, let me start the connection between club culture and the CCC. Well, I've been thinking about it for a long time. We can stop cultures and the hacker culture, they have a lot in common. And we can learn from each other. Also, I love CCC for the values it represents. And I think those values are reflected in club culture. And with the coronavirus, we started collaborating and founding initiatives. And collaboration became vital to us. And it created synergies that I would have never thought would have been possible. People worked together to help the situation to create projects to create awareness. I think what connects hacker culture and club culture is a certain tech-savvyness and also a consciousness about elites. I think we both deem ourselves special. And I also think there's a complex tie between subculture and commercialism. There are certain contradictions and power dynamics. You have to see how you get along. And also clubs have to deal with music labels. And even though they don't want to sell themselves because they don't want to sell their credibility. So that is a dynamic that defines us. And I think culturally, we do have a lot in common. Well, I think that's a very important point you just made there. Being open towards new ways of thinking and seeing things. I was wondering, what is happening concretely? What can we expect? Can you say something about that? Well, we're waiting for the development and how the regulations are proceeding. Pamela talked about that. We did have some successes, but we have a petition drawn out, ready to be posted to the parliament. And also on 6th of February, we have the Europe-wide Open Club Day. So that is an event on the European level. But I'm also excited to see what individuals are doing because lockdown will keep us busy for a while. So how about the others? Do you have ideas about concrete action? What are your own aspects and ideas? How do you deal with this situation? I organise tours, so I'm not directly involved with the clubs. And as a venue, of course, I deal with the clubs. But I have a problem with that the petitions are the best weapon in the political fight. And I don't want to be begging and we are fighting for our laws and we are fighting for equality. So give us cultural equality and we want to be treated equally. And we have to look for sharper weapons rather than just designing petitions. And I think HECA culture is maybe ahead of us there and they're being more radical. And we have to create chaos and we have to create gangs and being radical and saying it can't go on like this. And we are ready to fight and more is possible. And how these forms could be in particular, I don't know, we shouldn't tell our opponents publicly. But I think this language maybe these questions have to be put amongst ourselves. Unfortunately, we don't have any time anymore, but we have a website. It's called clubsarchultural.de and contributes and venues and clubs and artists and create chaos. And please look at the stream. Yes, in the AC3 lounge there's the stream of Miss Judith's stream. And she's already warmed up and yes, thank you very much. Have fun.