 Welcome, everybody. I'm excited to be the host for this session. My name is Tom Oman, and I am a venture capitalist. And I have, but not in the impact investing area. So I'm here, I'd say, also as a student to learn from many of you and from our two other panelists here. I have a background in education and worked previously as an academic on race relations issues. And in the nonprofit arena, I have quite extensive experience with Planned Parenthood in the New York City area. I'm the board chair of the largest Planned Parenthood in the country, Affiliate. And one of the large food banks in the state of New Jersey delivered 220,000 meals a day during the pandemic and have spent a fair amount of time in the last few years giving back in a world that has been very, very generous to me through the course of my career. And I am very happy to introduce our two panelists to you, who will tell you a bit about themselves. Tim Ran and Mira Siva, and let them introduce themselves. And we'll get started. OK, I'm Mira Siva. I'm with Habitat for Humanity. And we work on a fund called the Shelter Venture Fund, which does impact investments on housing-related innovations. It's a global fund. We have made 12 investments so far globally. And it's an in-house fund. So it's on our balance sheet. So we don't have a certain number of years by which we need to exist. So it's a lot of patient capital. The investment sizes are pretty small. We come in early in the seed stage, about 300 to 500 ks, our ticket size. And yeah, I mean, our sector focus includes building material, building technologies, and digital solutions, water and sanitation, and renewable energy solutions for housing. Hi, everybody. My name is Timothy Ran. I'm managing partner and risk-core ventures. We are emerging markets focused venture capital fund. We are focused on two specific outcomes, as an impact fund versus climate resilience and second is financial resilience to things, obviously, very intertwined, investing really across South America or Latin America as a whole, sub-Saharan Africa and Southeast Asia. Sectors of focus are ag tech, thin tech, and climate tech, although we've done a few investments in property tech, which housing would fit within. And a few other sectors like last mile distribution and logistics. Great. I think a big picture question to put out on the table for us is why housing is important to Habitat and Mercy Core and how the linkages that we see existing between housing and other important factors that matter in terms of economic, social, and health benefits to people in our society. And I guess focus primarily on the so-called base of the pyramid. People have been less fortunate than probably all of us in this room. And I guess why should it start off with why should impact investors' care about housing? So I turn it over to you, Mira, for your thoughts. Right. So I think if you are an impact investor, you need to provide whatever is the funds mandate, both the financial return and the impact return that you set out to do. So it could be like providing livelihoods or creating jobs, or whatever is it that the funds mandate is. And I think if you are in the impact sector, while getting financial returns in the general space is a little easier, it's not easy as so many of the startups fail and whatnot. Relatively, trying to go for this double bottom line return, you will find that after the very easy things are solved, like financial inclusion sort of issues are a little easy with microfinance and others, when you drill down one more layer, you find that many of the issues are interconnected. When you try to solve education as a problem, you will find, well, why are education outcomes poor? That may be related to there is no stable livelihood or other issues in that community. And I think housing is one where all these factors sort of come together, and in some sense, solving housing as a problem will help address all these other allied issues, like health outcomes. It is related to livelihoods and climate change, which is a big issue and becoming bigger by the day. So I think housing is one area which is not one vertical. It's more a horizontal that sort of cuts across these different impact goals. And different impact investors can add that housing lens to their investments to see where are the intersections of where theirs meet. And there is also the housing element, like instead of any financial inclusion, a housing microfinance loan or a housing renovation loan or making your house more resilient to hurricanes and whatnot or any of these climate issues and insurance others to those are a financial solution which also has that housing base. So that's where I feel investors can play a role in including housing in their portfolio. Very good. One of your investments, Earth Enable, I think is a good example, maybe if you just mention how Earth Enable combines some of these benefits. So Earth Enable is a company based in Kewanda. And they do urban floors with newer material. And there is a lot of health benefit outcomes from not having a dirt floor and having this flooring. And that is also improving the quality of housing for people. And here, as Tom nicely pointed out, he is one of our board of advisors. So that's how he knows this all very passionately. So he's just letting me speak about them. So that's one where there is a lot of health outcomes and a housing angle. And that has worked out really well that there is the households pay for it. It's not a philanthropic model. But then it's somewhat subsidized right through the connections and others that have it as in that. Tim, could you share your perspectives? Yeah, I mean, I think. So my intersection with housing and emerging markets goes back to essentially my first job in Cambodia, working with first finance, microfinance, right out of College. And it was providing, or it is providing, small mortgages for first time for the most part homeowners in Cambodia. At that point, essentially, a home loan would typically require 70% upfront down payment and then interest rate of around 20% to 30% per year, which priced it out of any Cambodian's reach. Average income at that point was anywhere between $25 to $100 a month. The group of initial shareholders, mostly expats and Cambodian people who'd been there for years believed Cambodia was at an inflection point. There would be wage growth, real economy growth, and that the financial institutions there were kind of overpricing the risk and were not really prepared to go through a process by which they could assess how a property might move from the informal market to the formal market. And so I think that for me, seeing the first clients, first hand, because it was a small loan book at that point, getting the formal title, getting a mortgage product to this house, which would have been unimaginable for them 10, 20 years before, to me, kind of started that journey of, well, this can really be a transformative product. I mean, as in the US and many developed markets, land in a house is the most valuable asset. It's the place where our wealth is generally kept and we have for the long term, in emerging markets, I think the World Bank's recent estimate has 72% of people live on land that don't have secure tenure over, however that's defined, hold their conversation. And then in many markets, that unsecured wealth that somebody has is probably by an order of magnitude the biggest asset that they're gonna have, their inability to leverage that for some sort of gross mortgage, to build on it securely, to invest in it, if you're a farm, there's all these secondary effects if an individual has secure access to that and access to financing and that's kind of seen as a formalized asset. And so I think the more I personally dug into and our fund did, we started to say, well, this is similar to other sectors, really kind of a cornerstone or maybe a keystone of a lot of other things we invest in, but we didn't necessarily know how to approach it, right? Because when you approach housing, I think from a traditional sense, the first thing that comes in my mind is construction. But I think as Miro, you can get into more, there's a lot more opportunities around that that we've been able to kind of explore, I'd say opportunistically. Maybe you could just pick up on that and talk, talk about the other factors, the complexity as well as the opportunity. Sure, sure. So, you know, in the first finance, Habitat also has a debt fund called the micro-build fund, which on-lens to organizations like First Finance, right, that to the consumer facing loan. So that's one aspect how Habitat tries to solve the various issues in the market because housing is always a multi-dimensional problem. There's always the regulatory bit of the policy and land being the largest issue where government and other involvements do come in. There is also the material and those aspects of it. And then the supply side, right, with the builder and builder finance and all of that. And then in the system, there's a lack of transparency and issues that go along with that in the primary and the secondary market. So it's a very somewhat of a complex system. And Habitat has a larger ecosystem to have different approaches to try to work on these things. But for the fund itself, we try to focus more on, well, what is somewhat simple that could be solved and scaled in a way. And we have found some themes that are interesting that way. For example, like building materials and building materials from waste plastics or from agri-waste and others. So we do try to look at smaller spaces where we could go in and try to create an impact that way. And those are, I guess, trying to start from the periphery and edges rather than getting to some of these core problems which we understand are rather complex and too much for one small fund or an organization to take on. And that's where we are also trying to see what maybe the partnerships one could bring on and right, who may be the other co-investors who like as Tim was saying, in the land titling and other space, we do need other partners who have different solutions and approaches to come together to solve those issues as well. So before we, one thing I wanted just to state that has been probably one of the most sobering statistics I've ever heard in my life when I heard about it and it's stuck with me obviously. Number of people who have inadequate shelter in the world at this point, roughly 1.6 billion people. I mean, just think about that and think about the human suffering that is on a daily basis generated by that situation. So powerful, so sobering, so for many of us inspirational in trying to work to make a dent. You know, I mean, this is obviously something that is not going to be solved and it's going to be worked on over a long period of time but it's certainly worth working on. Could one of you talk about this concept of minimum viable complexity, which I am not sure I can explain and would love to have you explain to the group and how you think about it in terms of the work we do? Yeah, I stole this from Gregory Landua from Regen Network who will speak here tomorrow. So we can get his definition but I think the way, you know, for us we like to think we are systems level investors recognizing we are a very small investment fund and that tackling things like climate change and climate adaptation are the definition of systems change and all of its complexities. And so I think the duality we grapple with is we want to try to make investments that we think have outsized impact but at the same time we recognize that we're going to need kind of pathological collaboration with government, other investors, other entrepreneurs, nonprofits in order to actually affect that. And so the concept we've applied or played around with has been what's the minimum viable complexity necessary in a particular model or approach that will actually meaningfully move the bar. So to give you an example, you could have a one-off investment in a single insure tech providing homeowner's insurance or some other single product. That relationship to actually solving the housing market or leading to more housing construction, what have you is quite far removed. But when we look at an investment thesis around that particular single solution it's looking at what else would need to shift in the market? What are the other investments we might do? What are the other investments other players are doing like shelter fund so that this kind of fits within the ecosystem solutions? And I think that's the way we've kind of approached it as well as in single investments that are trying to do something a little bit bigger and more audacious. If they try to take too much it's probably not going to be a sustainable model or a positive customer experience but if they take on too little that directionality as well as that kind of lack of like external factors is gonna be at least an impact in commercial risk. So that's the way we kind of frame I guess all these investments we're making so that we can try to see where they can kind of have that outsize impact towards a bigger systems change. Mara, would you like to build on that? I think I haven't heard this word that much before in the past but that's kind of how we also do look at it that things are very interconnected and you just go in with just one bandaid or one approach which may look like it is giving you some results in the short term and making some progress but it will interface with some other solutions which may be at friction with this and unless that is solved you may hit that roof on scaling and so you just need to have this whole change pathway and understand the various systems at play here and to see what is the ecosystem around the solution how is that moving and what may be the other players we may need to influence in some way we are others that need to come in and influence in some way and yeah that is where we go long on a thing or just say that yes this is a good idea but this is not an idea as time has come because all these other things have to come in place and then piece our investment expectation on the timeline for when things will happen according to right where not just this technology is progressing but everything else around it. Yeah nothing to add one thing I think that within the housing sector in particular compared to other sectors we look at there is a requirement I would say of government involvement there's also a tremendous amount of government subsidy and intervention for better or worse depending on the market and there's a lot of companies that are playing within that which wouldn't exist in other markets because there are market failures and so I think one thing we're always assessing and reassessing in the case of some of our investments in this space is they might be solving kind of a government or market or public failure but should that continue to exist is it best for us to put our capital there where does that company potentially look at actually non-profit models better for this or some sort of data unit so I think housing in particular is interesting because depending on the type of capital you're deploying if especially if you have multiple vehicles to deploy or you have multiple angles like Habitat does you can kind of look across the spectrum of investments that would need to make the housing market more effective and try to pull those levers and I think that one of the areas where this works quite well is when again you have a consortium where you have a particular fund like Omidia Arizona a lot of great work in this as this Habitat where you can kind of look at a research level like researching what are the data gaps working with governments cadastral systems or land registry systems to kind of get that piece sorted out and then look at like all the different types of prop tech financing investments I think it really does to some degree demand like a systems approach because otherwise it's very difficult to mobilize or feel confident about putting capital on any one of those. The U.S. housing market is very different from the markets you are investing in and in the U.S. it's major construction, major capital expenses and how would you characterize our non U.S. markets in terms of their qualities and attributes? Yeah so definitely housing markets are very different across geographies and in some cases in different regions in these geographies and the middle income housing may look very different from the low income the urban from the rural and all of that so that's why one just sort of needs to look at what is the problem you are solving and actually what is the solution and how scalable that is and we do find that some of the problems are not the same but they tend to rhyme in the sense yeah I mean like you know I've kind of seen this in Kenya as in Myanmar as in some pockets in India and such and solutions may differ in some cases because what could work really well in Kenya may just fall flat in the Indian context because of this interconnectedness. Do you have an example, a specific example that would make this clear? So if we look at rental markets as an example I mean home ownership is one issue, one aspect so rental markets is one where there's a lot of where there's a lot of urbanization that's happening and people are moving into which is happening a lot in many of the emerging markets where there's urbanization rate is very high what are the rental market solutions one could come up with and that differs actually I'll go into examples in India itself between cities where the tenant landlord relationships and the agreements because housing is a state subject in India the rules around the agreements and the terms and the issues around it are very different and hence the solution sort of needs to be very different as well right but there are some common issues and common pain points which some of the digital solutions are able to solve and then leave that last bit to the local market so yeah. Your perspective, Tim. Yeah specifically on like models that haven't been transferable or yeah certainly well so when we look at the spectrum of kind of housing investments broadly and Mira can probably do much better than I about this but you kind of have the funnel from the land construction and management all the way down to the financing and then in between there's how one manages rentals there's secondary market rentals and all sorts of things but I think the one that we've seen that's most contextual is really around that land titling and formalization piece as I mentioned 70% of the world's population doesn't have secure access or tenure over their land even if they have the building and have some sort of title and theory it probably won't hold up in court whether it's subject to being pushed off there's all sorts of negative ramifications of that however every country in the world more or less has very different ways of how they parcel out land, how they do legal registration there's all sorts of socio-cultural aspects and how you get that through customary titles in West Africa versus formal titles in other parts of the world versus Indonesia where you have to have the Bupati who signs everything off it is incredibly complex and so we've seen companies that whether they focus on land data like polygon collection or land registration or land titling they've really faced barriers and doing something highly scalable just because it's so different across every context and even within a specific region and the cost is typically high I guess once again they're kind of covering for what is a failure of the market a failure of public goods to do that and so that's one where I think there's been grand hope of how this might be streamlined with technology across a lot of geographies but the reality is that it's just too different and too costly to find solutions that are truly global in nature Are you optimistic or pessimistic about the ability to have housing solutions for developing countries where impact investors will move in that direction to be more proactive and get out of their silos and think of housing as a cross cutting investment opportunity more going down through the passage of time are we at the beginning or is this a position that will not expand dramatically over time Okay, I am definitely optimistic and that's because of all the SMSM around housing interestingly because it's like the best time to invest is when there's blood on the streets so there is a huge housing crisis and as you said 1.6 billion people do not have access to a decent shelter and by decent it's not like homelessness per se but the quality of the homes and how vulnerable they are to any disaster and there is the climate change lot more issues that we would see in the market with floods and cyclones and all of that plus as I alluded to the urbanization is creating a different sort of crowding in cities while there is space in other and if the infrastructure is not developed people will not have the quality of their housing will be very poor so there is a huge opportunity and it is a public good and in the low income housing segment definitely and the governments have not been able to deliver when things were a little easier and it's only getting harder with the climate change and right urbanization and all these factors sort of thrown in and hence this provides a new sector or a sunrise opportunity for people who say okay here is a large market I mean barring some cases as Tim was saying in the land registry side there are lots of solutions that are scalable like building materials they may be like some flavored differences but solution that works in one place could definitely scale across geographies there and these are materials that kind of bring a lot of these aspects of circularity and provide more thermal comfort or more affordable provide local livelihood with local production and using local material so there's a lot of opportunity to bring a lot of different investors who may be coming at it with different angles and use housing as a way to have the solution so and I think people have not been thinking of housing as an answer to some of these other issues or where there's housing playing the change they want to see but I think when that opens up housing will become more interesting because it is a large problem and there are new opportunities with the shift that's coming so yeah, Tim? Yeah, I mean I think it's no secret that some of the world's richest people made their money on construction and housing, right? There's lots of negative externalities as a result of that but when you just look at the figure that 950 million Africans are going to need new housing construction by 2050 there's somebody is going to respond to that or some group is going to respond to that. There are ways like everything I feel like now as we're an inflection point there are ways this can go in a good way, a better way, or a very bad way but I think what gives me optimism is that there's been so much investment largely in the backbone of relatively cheap cost of capital the last 20 years in all sorts of circular economy housing, modular housing there's been little bits of exciting developments in different types of financial structures around how you finance housing in different methods and again habitat, micro-build you guys have been at the front of this there's been a lot of interesting developments in financing kind of public goods around land tenure data, GIS data and so forth and so I feel like it is slowly moving maybe slower than we would like towards a constellation of these different service providers being in a position to actually work together and meaningfully deliver housing that can be climate resilience and meet the demand of these markets but again this to me seems like one of those where it's very tricky because all this ecosystem has to be developed and kind of moving together and if financing is ahead but we don't have the construction if we push ahead with construction but without care to who actually owns the asset and has the ability to own it it doesn't really create the type of reality that I think would be optimal for the people securing that housing Yeah just to add to that right like I mean there is a lot of I mean the construction and the housing industry is large right I mean trillions of dollars but it's just the question is for whom are these homes getting built and how right and I think that's what provides the opportunity for us to change things here Yeah well I want to make sure we have time for questions from those of you who are here but before we turn to that I wanted also to get one or two examples of investments that you have made to take the you know strategic concepts and focus on a an investment housing related that you feel you're excited about and let me start with Tim Yeah I can't just pick one but I think that so I mean maybe I'll just pick a few layers really quickly so I mean I think you know first and foremost we've done two investments in kind of the property formalization space to me again this is just going back to DeSoto's mystery of capital there's just a massive amount of unrecognized wealth and untaxed wealth if you're looking from a government perspective in the land assets that 70% of the world has and so any sort of technology that drives down the cost to essentially formalize that and to provide security over it has massive impacts and because it's potentially trillions of dollars worth of either government revenue or individual revenue or B2B revenue it's a huge revenue opportunity to actually do that formalization so we have two companies doing that one is Meridia which does it through ag value chains helping farmers map out their land and get secure land titling depending on the local forms and then Suio and Columbia which is doing that mostly in peri-urban areas of Columbia so that's like the basis property formalization then I think beyond that we've done a number of investments in specific types of financial services that are touching houses around different types of insurance for households and then a third level we have started investing in companies that are looking at kind of that data procurement as well as analytics for urban design and other types of insurance products so we have investment in cloud to street which provides direct observation of floods and then secondarily provides credit risk and a lit or sorry creditless analytics and insurance product designed for floods why this is important is because a lot of areas of course we know in emerging markets are a huge flood risk and number one and then number two governments have to be able to pre-position aid to respond to disasters and then ideally design urban areas and thought more thoughtful ways or drive housing construction in ways that will avoid these types of calamities so cloud to street provides that analytics data both to governments as well as insurers to essentially influence how housing market develops as well as provide all sorts of other types of insurance products great good examples Mara so Tim covered Meridia which is habitat is a co-investor land title is the basis for like home loans and a lot of service availability so that's one that's quite exciting and that's a very scalable solution they are in multiple continents with that solution and those are the ones that are very exciting one more I would like to touch upon is EcoSTP which is an investment in India which provides power free I mean zero power water sewage treatment solution and this is interesting because low income households do not treat their water that much which leads to pollution of water bodies which leads to health and other issues and when they do there is no electricity or it does cost so they tend to not do that the solution is zero power and hence it helps improve the health outcomes and there is power saving so there is carbon reduction so here is one solution that is very adaptable in rural and remote areas that's all multiple issues so that's one that I'm very very exciting very exciting well I think we have time for some Q and A and with help I'd like to see if people have questions that can be addressed thank you so much for the work you guys do it's really admirable I'm curious about your capital and your structuring so I've been trying to narrow it down but if you could both just kind of characterize maybe as best you can are you investing as a non-profit or have you restructured in some way you know as an LLC or something like that and where have you at the end of the day you are a non-profit or stemming from one or an NGO or whatever so where are you sourcing your capital what are the return expectations to either your your board or I don't know if you have outside investors or not or if it's simply just coming from within a you know a corpus or an investment portfolio or whatever so you basically get my drift you could both characterize that for me I'd appreciate it that is not one question that's right I'm sorry very good ones very good ones Steven Samuels, Vice President at Volunteers of America yeah I can go a quick non-profit, your structure yeah source of capital return of capital expectations yeah I got it so yeah we are we are kind of the the misfit venture capital arm of Mercy Corps which is a global non-profit we are structures and LLC holding Co and Delaware wholly owned by Mercy Corps all of our money comes in through our current sort of well our first vehicle which is an evergreen fund all comes in through Mercy Corps which capitalizes Mercy Corps development holdings so essentially we answer to a single LP which is Mercy Corps we have the ability to yeah set our own terms we just have to recycle the money it's like it gives us incredible flexibility as fund managers to target whatever risk return profile we're looking for as long as it fits within the impact pieces that we have then we have another vehicle we are fundraising for at the moment which is a more traditional GP LP vehicle that's not we're not investing actively out of that one then the third is a separate vehicle which is a grant fund that allows us and we've actually done more in the housing well we've done two in housing out of that that allows us to kind of test out the application of and the impact of blockchain and blockchain derivative technologies in climate tech and financial technology so that's grants so those are three vehicles so we also sort of have three vehicles one is the micro build fund which does the debt financing you know to the wholesale lending that's structured as an LLC separately the fund itself is an on balance sheet fund so it you know it does not have a separate structure the you know money comes from the donors and our return expectation is it's an impact first return so the so that we it should meet the impact goals and you know should be aligned with the goals of the organization the financial return part we are a little flexible and because we don't have a fixed a year or so of return we have had returns already in the fund but yeah it's it's just for how does that help the organization to grow further rather than you know we need to exit by this time frame and all that we also have a grant making arm through which we do test some ideas which are a little early through we have an accelerator program and a grant that sort of goes with some of the the them have an and then when it's a little mature is when the fund comes in and invest and yeah we are the fund has been in operation for five years and we have had investments that are like five years so it's still yeah great thank you so another hand at least one two hi there thank you so much I have two questions I guess you could pick one one you listed that you know harrowing statistic earlier like 1.6 billion people I'm curious to know what you think needs to be happening at different layers of the sector in the work that you're doing to actually get to solve that problem because I'd imagine it's orders of magnitude beyond where we are right now and resourcing systems etc so I'm just curious to hear in your biggest imagination of what would be required to be put in motion to actually solve that problem and I'm also just curious is the solution in access to ownership or is it in access to shelter and you know what's what's really the roadmap there my name is Kat Lindroth I'm with CBData maybe I'll answer the second one which seems a little easier use my imagination and be the hard one for Tim here so I think it is twofold actually it used to be that there is no access to housing ownership and that's where habitat started with more on the focus of the ownership model of housing but I think with more urbanization what we are seeing is there are actually two problems and so that's why we also work on modular housing and in other solutions which are a little temporary it's not like you're you know this is a home that I pass on generation to generation hundred years sort of thing and and you know to like you need a decent place to live which you know is not too hot for you right you know and creating you all these issues and giving you that space right for people to explore and live right so so it is actually two different problems that we are seeing and there are issues in both here that gives a larger problem for you to imagine now Tim yeah if I were to pick out like two cogs within the problems that are around that the first one the World Bank has thrown tens of billions of dollars that I can remember maybe a hundred plus billion dollars at like property formalization and land registries with relatively mixed success and this is not to blame the World Bank this is just a really hard problem so I think the core data and mechanism by which land is attributed to an owner or community or to a government and then how that transacts is a massive issue that that we as humanity need to figure out how to get good at better at and there's lots of bright spots but I think that's the key one whether that's for investment capital or some quasi-public private partnership is a whole long conversation we can have over beer but like I think there's like that's that's a core one for me the second is I think the why I would pick out would be the financing piece I mean there's a there's a pretty rich construction market out there already that's kind of outside the impact investor purview usually it exists in all these markets there's better ways to do it there's more resilient ways and all these different things but that's that's that's going which is fantastic and there's lots of great entrepreneurs like shelters help support it and then others that are out there but the financing pieces is I think still one of the cruxes and so I think access to affordable again this is more the ownership side access for at least to own affordable long-term financing in these markets the ability to drive and crowd in more financing that is at a lower cost or appropriate for kind of the risk is a huge opportunity so we we just launched a pilot on their third vehicle on the blockchain one with Empower which is essentially testing this out like how could we essentially crowd fund capital in order to finance least own models and Mozambique and with Casa Royale and Empower so we're testing it up and we'll see kind of how that looks is like a stream of financing over a five to ten year period for kind of these mortgage products but that's another one that I think really there could be a lot more innovation with them so we have habitat has habitat has imagine the answer which is you know in in three words is the affordability of the homes at the home itself costs less in in some ways to to built and deliver and access to the people you know who who do not have access even if it is affordable in the sense of you know at the house itself may be priced at X but you know do you have EMI's and write other solution that's the access part and then the third is the quality part because you know you could get lower priced houses but you know they may fall apart right so those are the three pillars which would help solve this problem for the 1.6 billion yeah what are the solutions we don't know but yeah those are the things that need to be answered so we have time for one short question with too short with too short answer hi i'm lisa hanson founder of global urban village i know mirro we work together on some projects i find that when talking to people in the sector and outside of the sector that it can be really intuitive to talk about building material innovations like incorporating circularity into a brick for example that's easy to understand and you've touched on many of the harder to understand elements in land entitlement etc but i wonder if you could speak a little bit to the decarbonizing solutions that have to do with building management or urban and density solutions okay that's an easy one for 30 seconds thank you so yeah i think you know digitization is is one in the construction sector particularly the housing should solve a lot of issues you know transparency being one right i mean there's a lot of issues in i mean this this may be an alien concept in developed world but in emerging markets lack of transparency causes a lot of issues and you know adds to a lot of i guess trust deficit which leads to you know higher cost of credit and right various issues so that's one you know that we are looking for solutions on and there are many with the mobile phone and right cheaper access to the digital technologies that are out there the urban planning and yeah the architectures and all that is not an area we have looked sort of closely into but because i have also not seen many investable ideas around it as a product right but that's the piece where it is you know you can push your thing this far but then that's where in the system change you will find that's where you will hit a wall and you need to work on that and habitat is not the one that could work on it that's where you sort of need to bring in partners like the world resource institute or others right that we also do some work with to say well how do we work together so that there is a you know a fully systemic solution and not just one piece is like this is the greenest brick that goes into this really bad overall system solution right so yeah if i could just add in the pilot i mentioned within power i think part of the intention is to tie the financing to climate resilient housing which means they essentially act as the property developer which is then subcontracting materials in the right type of housing that they feel a matches the income stream of the least owned product but also is the best quality possible house they can deliver for the subset they're targeting to i think there is point like you could deliver any housing at that price but they want to try to deliver one that as a lowest carbon footprint but will also be kind of the longest term and most resilient so i don't know if i have a great answer to it other than i think it largely depends on of course the amount of consumers but also that the integral kind of property developer lens and you know are they pushed to drive down their cost or meet some regulatory standard or can you create enough consumer awareness or demand or financing demand that would you know allow them to choose essentially that type of construction versus another