 webinar. I will just start by giving you a short introduction about open air and what we do, just trying to move to the next slide. I think I might have a bit of a problem. Yeah, let me know if you want me to share your slides, Marina. Maybe should I stop sharing then? Okay, thank you. Okay, thank you very much. So open air, for those who are not very familiar with what open air is and what we do, has grown over the years through a series of project phases from linking Europe's repository infrastructure to its current phase that extends and support the open air mission to implement open science. To enable this shift towards openness and transparency, we work on different aspects and also we work with a wide range of stakeholders if we could move on to the third slide please. So our work focuses on aligning policies so as to support coordinated transition to open science and we also help funders and institutions monitoring their research outcomes. We also build common standards to enable interoperability, discoverability, transparency and enhance the reproducibility of research. We also support researchers but also other stakeholders like funders, universities, also administrative staff and the people who are involved in project management through a number of guides and FAQs that we have developed over the years. But we also organize webinars and workshops and we also have a help desk to which you can contact us directly. May I ask Irina to move to slide number three please? I think this should be number three. Do you want the next one? We cannot see. You're still seeing slide number one. Yes, it's not moving. I think it needs to go in presentation mode. Yes, yeah. There we go. Okay, thank you. And as I was mentioning, we have developed a number of support materials throughout the years that cover different aspects of open access and open science such as dealing with issues such as data management plans, copyright and licensing issues, also dealing with compliance with the horizon mandate or issues around the management of research data. We have also developed a number of services. For example, Argus which is an online tool for creating and publishing DMPs. The Amnesia which is a data anonymization tool and we also have the validator service that enables testing your repository compatibility with the open air guidelines and then you can register your repository for aggregation and indexing in open air. We encourage you to browse through our portal and where you can see all the services and the support materials that we have developed over the years. If we could move to the next slide please. A core element of the open air is the European network of open access desks known as the nodes. This is a network that is composed of open access and open science experts that have a key role at the national level in the transition to open science. They work with national stakeholders but they also help in voicing their needs at the European level. Again, we encourage you to visit the open air portal and see who the node is in your country and we encourage you to get in touch with them. Noids are very active. They organize a number of local events of different types so we encourage you to liaise with them. Finally, a few words about the policy and legal task force. Within open air advance we have set up two task forces, one focusing on policy and legal issues and one focusing on RDM. The aim of the task forces is to raise awareness and increase competencies on various aspects of open science and in the context of the policy and legal task force we have developed among others policy templates for funders and research institutions to facilitate and support them. All those who wish to either develop or align their policies with the European framework. We have also developed checklists and we have organized a series of webinars to exchange ideas and best practices. Today's webinar is actually part of this work and we will focus, as you know, more specifically on the developments around the plan S. We are very happy to welcome our and two speakers. The first one is Johan Rurik who is an open access champion for coalition S. Johan is a professor of French linguistics at Leiden University and he has over 20 years of experience as an editor, first as the executive editor of Lingua and since 2015 as the co-founder and editor-in-chief of the Fair Open Access Journal Gloucester that is a journal of general linguistics and among other functions Johan is the president of the Fair Open Access Alliance and a member of the Academia Européa. Our second speaker is Neve Brennan who is the program manager of research informatics in Trinity College Library Dublin where she works on the development of Trinity's research support system and it's institutional repository at Parra and Neve is also an open air node for Ireland. So Johan the floor is all yours. Thank you. Okay thank you for inviting me. I'm going to try and share my screen and do yell if it doesn't work. Can you see? Yes. Yes so you can see this. I'm just asking because I mean that for you it didn't work as well Marina. Yeah it's fine. We see it thanks. Okay great. Okay so again thank you for inviting me and I'm very happy to speak about Plan S and some of the updates but I'll start from the start and I'll give you a first summary of what I'm going to talk about. My talk will take about 20 to 25 minutes. I will first talk about coalition S so who we are, why Plan S was devised, what the strong principles are that Plan S is based on the implementation guidance that we have developed and the challenges are for it and how we work with key stakeholders. The other activities that we are devising and other activities and policies and the questions then there will be time for questions and discussion and maybe Irina can moderate some of the the discussions in the chat. I would appreciate that because it's a little bit hard to do everything at the same time but we will see how it goes. So this is my summary. Coalition S is currently consists of 24 funders, 24 funders among whom there are a lot of national European funders from Austria to the United Kingdom. There's also of course the most important European funders in terms of numbers of grants and money involved are the European Commission and European Research Council but there is also a more international dimension to Coalition S. We also have charitable foundations on board, most importantly the Wellcome Trust and the Billinman and the Gates Foundation have joined us and also aligning science across Parkinson's which is Sege Brins from the Google Sege Brins Foundation to combat Parkinson and do research into Parkinson's. We also have a more global dimension, World Health Organization is a member of Coalition S, Jordan, Zambia, South Africa and the African American Academy of Sciences are members. We have also signed the Sao Paulo statement together with Amelie Castillo African open science platform and OA2020 to coordinate the transition towards open access and to coordinate policies. There's also coordinated action with Open Access 2020 OA2020. It's the German organization that is organizing worldwide transformative agreements towards open access and we have coordinated access with COAR, the organization for open access repositories. So that's our scope for now. We of course are very willing to accept new members, new funders, not only funders by the way, I mean there's often the conception that Coalition S is just about research funding organizations, but in fact we also accept research performing organizations and members. Anyone who is willing to implement our 10 principles in the next few years is welcome to join the effort. Why was Plan S devised? Now the funders organization, the funding organizations in Coalition S want the following things. They want to accelerate science by making results immediately available to the largest possible audience worldwide. They also want to greater transparency in research communication. As we also see in the current COVID-19 situation, great transparency and immediacy of sharing results is extremely important in making progress in finding solutions. And of course why would we limit this to COVID-19? I mean this should be extended. The same is true for other important illnesses like cancer and it is also true for other challenges that await us like climate change. We need to have research immediately available to face societal challenges like these and so there is no reason why any research should be exempted from open access. What we also want is a cost-effective transition from the unsustainable subscription model to an open access model and that is something that we are trying to effect by continuous discussions with publishers and by putting pressure on them which is something that is part of our activity that is sometimes I think underestimated. What funders want to do is simply use their funding to drive academic publishing towards full and immediate open access. Publishers but also researchers of course. Funders are in a unique position to use their cloud to tell researchers where to publish. That's one thing and they also in a unique position and independent position to tell publishers how they want as clients of publishers, how they want the publications publishing to look like. So that is something that we are trying to do. Now why plan us from the point of view of a researcher? I'm also put in a slide for that because many researchers still don't see why open access is so important. This is a study that I love to cite by people by agreement or it may be familiar to most of you but I'm doing it anyway. Showing that in 2019 31% of all journal articles are available in open access but in fact 52% of article views are to open access articles. Now why is that? It's very easy to understand of course that an open access article is immediately available. You don't have to go behind the paywall. You don't have to pay up 30 euros or go through your library in order to get it. You have immediate access. A few clicks on your phone or on your computer and there you go. You have everything at your fingertips. So that means what people might also show is that in given existing trends that by 2025 44% of all journal articles will be available as OA but a full 70% of article views will be OA. So that means that if you're a young researcher and or even an older researcher but if you're a young researcher 2025 is literally tomorrow and if you're a young researcher you want to publish in open access because that's how your articles will be viewed. I mean nobody is going to look behind the paywall in order to have access to your great ideas. You have to make sure that they are out there for everybody to see. So that's my motivation for younger researchers. It is in your this is in your own interest even more so than publishing I believe in a prestigious journal. It is much more important to get that article out there in open access. Now plan S is built on strong principles. We believe very strongly that research results are public good. Public good like public transportation or electricity that does not necessarily mean that it can cost anything or that we cannot involve third-party services just like for public transportation and electricity. We can involve publishers for the purpose of publishing articles but we want to have the results immediately available just like public transportation is immediately available and electricity is in this case in our case to accelerate science. We want those results to be available now. So that means that with respect to the current situation there's a lot of no's that come up now in our principles and the no's are no to paywall publications no to embargoes. No copyright transfer publications should be in CC by license and authors should retain copyright that's in our principle one. No hybrid model of publication no hybrid model of publication means that we don't want classical hybrids so we want hybrid journals to transition fully towards open access. The current situation as all of you know is a situation where hybrid has stalled the transition to open access. There is a certain percentage of open access in these hybrid journals they're still which is a relatively low percentage. The rest of these journals is still behind the paywall. What we want to do is push the publishers to transition these journals fully to open access and we want to provide a policy to affect that. Of course in our one of our principles is that pricing contracts and publication fees should be transparent. This is a very important one and I'll come back to it later to show you what policies we are developing to that effect or what we have put out for that. Also funders commit to support these publication fees so individual researchers should not pay. That is a very important principle just like the researcher does not pay themselves for the blackboard in their office or their chair they should not be paying for funding for publication fees. Publication fees should simply be a part of the grant or should simply be a part of the facilities that are put at the disposal of a researcher under in our view. We have now multiple routes to open access compliance under principle five and I will talk about those in a minute and very importantly there is a full commitment on behalf of the funders to assess research output not on metrics and not on the journal value not on the prestige of the journal but on their intrinsic metrics or merits. How do we do that? Most of the funders now have implemented Dora to this effect so one of the ways this is done is by asking researchers to to to only provide a limited set of research results between five and ten and to ask researchers why they think these are their best publications and that is what these researchers are evaluated on for grants. Also committees are explicitly instructed not to look at things like journal impact factor and other quantitative metrics so this isn't a very important change in research evaluation research assessment and career advancement that we are trying to effect by subscribing to the Dora principles and to the Hong Kong principles and of course we know that there are other other principles out there that that are implemented so we are not wedded to Dora but any research any proposal that endorses these principles of not just evaluating research as a quantitative metric is one that we endorse and we would like to hear of. Okay so these are our principles how is this being implemented now as you know the timeline this was already known last year timeline has been extended by one year this means that a number of our funders not all of them will ask will apply plan as as of for the calls starting in January 2021 so that means that for these funders most notably your UK RI welcome and also also some others the publications from calls must be an open access as of first of January 21 the other funders will follow in their own time transformative arrangements will be supported towards to the end of 2024 for now I will talk about transformative arrangements in a minute and there is now also greater clarity and compliance routes what is important to know is that coalition has supports the diversity of business models what this basically means is that we support both commercial and non-commercial models of publication in other words we don't care about the color of your open access as long as it is open access any open access will do as long as it's CC buying copyright is retained so very important to note because this is a common misconception planners is not just about gold open access it is not about gold open access I'm going to say it for a third time it is not about gold open access immediate green is also fully compliant and I will show you how in a minute I should also say that by the end of June we will come out with our green policy I cannot give you any details yet because it is confidential it's confidential for good reason because it is going to be very robust and vigorous and I think the current audience will like it now the routes to compliance in our under our arrangement under following the gold there's the golden the diamond route and that is of course an easy one authors when authors publish in an open access journal coalition as funder will financially support publication fees for the author they are also willing to publish publication fees for diamond but of course it's a little bit more difficult because diamond does not work on the basis of fees per article and this is something also that we are trying to address I will come back to it later the second round very important round I cannot stress it enough is the green route the green route is the route that we use for subscription journals now contrary to popular opinion about coalition as it is totally possible for an author to publish in a subscription journal it is possible on one big important condition that is the version of record and all the authors accepted manuscript must be instantly made available in a repository now what we don't do in that case is to financially support publication fees in these hybrid subscription journals that we do not do and of course we ask the author to retain copyright to inform publisher that they want to retain copyright and that they want CC buy right but it is possible to publish in a subscription journal on the planet the third route that we accept is that what we call the transformative route the transformative route is a route that is designed for hybrid and subscription journals and this is when authors publish in a journal that is under a transformative agreement I will talk about transformative agreements in a minute so that means that this the author is publishing in a journal that is on its way to towards open access in the sense that revenue from subscription is progressively being replaced by revenue from publish and read the deals coalition funders may choose to financially support open access under transformative arrangements or they may not do because of course in many cases especially the transformative agreement route the payment will already have been made by the library consortium that the author belongs to and of course we're not going to pay twice okay so these are the three routes that we have for authors towards compliance and of course this can be a little bit confusing for authors and for that reason we are developing a journal checker tool that is also something that I will address later in this talk let me now talk a little bit about this transformative arrangements I think most of you will be familiar with them but since I cannot assume anything I'm quickly going through these these arrangements we support three strategies the first one of which is transformative agreements transformative agreements are contracts between library consortia that converts subscription costs to open access publishing costs basically to publish and read so it basically means that instead of paying just for reading the the library pays for reading and publishing of the researchers that are associated with that library or with that library consortia consortium open access OA 2020 is the most vigorous actor in that field promoting transformative agreements to accelerate the transition to open access what we endorse that strategy they aim for cost neutrality ace because of course publishers like to give like to have an additional cost included in the in in those published and read deals we also are in favor of cost neutral transformative agreements in addition we want these two there to plan as principles and to esac guidelines of course so they should be temporary and transitional we want to affect this transition in a defined time frame this may be optimistic but we have to try because I mean we've been talking about open access for more than 20 years even and it really has to get done and we believe so we want to move forward authors must retain copyright that is not negotiable for under planners and agreements must be transparent so they must be transparent and deposited in the esac repository for for contracts our experience also shows our experience within planners shows that the most successful transformative agreements are concluded when you have a very large library consortium most of the time these now are national they're sometimes even regional which is not a good thing and also it is very good to associate national funders to these efforts because national funders can put extra pressure in these negotiations so this is something that we recommend the second transformative arrangement is what we call the transformative model agreements these are model these are agreements between smaller publishers namely society publishers society publishers very often have only one journal or maybe five or six journals that they publish and it's very hard of course for them to negotiate with library consortia to get there to get to get simple transformative agreement that wise that is why we have developed this toolkit to develop model agreements between society publishers and and libraries and basically the idea is is the same libraries continue to pay their old subscription in exchange for immediate open access of all journal content a content no apc's change hands here but again the researchers who are associated with the library consortia uh can publish for free and in this journal there's actually a very nice pilot that is being conducted by the mycobiology society they are negotiating a transformative model agreement for these six journals and a number of other societies have joined this there's a couple just just yesterday i saw that a number of other societies have also adopted this model you can find the example of the mycobiology society in this link i am sure my talk will be made available to you as a pdf after my presentation so you should go have a look it's really very a very interesting model for these societies to to move forward i believe all right now the third transformative arrangement may be the most controversial that's the transformative journal round this is basically our way of addressing hybrid uh hybrid journals for the big publishers namely this is a framework for journal transitions where we ask that the share of open access is steadily increased year on year but with hard figures five percent in absolute terms and fifteen percent in relative terms also the subscription costs have to decrease of course over that same period we don't want to pay twice and very importantly the journal has to commit namely the publisher has to make a firm commitment in writing to transition the journals in open access and to flip the journal to full open access when seventy five percent of the research content is published open access um this is a way of de-blocking hybrid and as you may know spring of nature has has announced on eight april that they would adopt uh this uh this model uh for their journals in the next few years uh of course the conditions are not yet known we will uh we will hear about that soon i mean um about our implementation as well i had said that we would make it easy for researchers uh well we are developing a journal checker tool uh that will be available as of third january 2021 for the researchers that start to apply have to apply plan s and this will allow allow researchers to identify those journals that are compliant with plan s so basically how does this work it's this is a search tool where as a researcher you uh put in your uh your your employer or your thunder uh you type in the the journal of your choice and then a little window appears to say whether that journal is compliant with plan s or not or what you have to do as a researcher to to be able to publish in that journal so for instance that little panel could say look sorry uh this is a subscription journal you will have to deposit your manuscript in in a repository or uh sorry you're fine this uh you live in this country uh that that country or that your library consortium has a transformative agreement with this publisher you are you are free to publish in this journal and uh the the cost is taken care of so that's what we want this journal checker tool to look like eventually we have selected a supplier the contract hasn't been signed yet but work has already started and the initial focus will be on identifying publishing venues that offer a lot to compliance that uh offer cc buy and that allow the offer to retain copyright of course later only later iterations of this journal tool next year we will add some whistles and bells that make it that make it even easier for researcher and get that will allow for more information to be present in the journal checker tool for researchers but also for libraries um we work with key stakeholders of course we work with researchers group to see how they react to planets to see how we have to mitigate certain things to to adapt to our plans and policies and that's why we have established an ambassador network of various people who keep us informed about what their what their constituencies and researchers that they are in contact with are thinking about planets and how we should move things forward in the same way we are talking to early career researchers early career researchers are very often concerned that they will be disproportionately affected by uh planets because they are very willing to publish in open access journals they are also very willing to be evaluated with new research with with new evaluation methods but they are very concerned that an older generation of researchers is not so inclined and will still be applying old the old quantitative methods to evaluate them so that's why we are trying to work with them to see how we can make things easier for them they will also help us for instance in evaluating the journal checker tool so we are in close contact with these four organizations global young academy young academy europe magically alumni association and uro doc in close collaboration with them we move forward to measure the impact on on young researchers and put also to put out a survey to see how people react to to to plan s we are in active discussions with publishers as well as i said we we did discuss a lot with springer nature about the transformative journal model we also talked to the society published coalition we talked to anyone who wants to accompany us in this transition to open access really um we also other journals and publishers support the green open access model that is something that we are uh willing to consider certainly as an at least as an interim model and possibly as more uh the lancet group had already announced they would allow their authors to um publish uh to to deposit a version of record in uh full open access but more importantly a couple of publishers like emerald and also sage have decided that they would allow all the authors in their journals to deposit the version of record or the author accepted manuscript in a repository and i have talked to these publishers and they report they do not report a significant drop in subscription revenue so apparently the sky does not come down when all when publishers allow for green open access quite the country business goes on as usual uh so this is very important to note uh i believe um we also of course work with uh university associations the european university association and leru have endorsed us we are very willing to move forward with them of course university associations are especially important in applying dora because it's one thing to sign dora it's a very different thing to properly implement it and that may be quite difficult that universities sometimes but it has to be done this is this is where we are going so we are in contact with these key stakeholders to see how they can also promote the transition to open access according to plan s principles another important activity that we are undertaking is the transparent pricing as you know we want to put pressure on the publishers to to be more transparent about their pricing uh the comparison i always use is uh my local car car mechanic when i go to my local car mechanic to the garage to for a tune up of my car uh i do not expect my car mechanic to say mr rorick uh the price is going this is it's going to be 2 000 euros but i'm not going to tell you whether you get uh an oil change uh whether your windshield wipers will be changed whether your tires will be changed it's just 2 000 euros right and your car will be fine if i say that about the car mechanic it sounds ludicrous uh when you say that about an apc it seems completely normal so we we should change that and that's why i think it is important to get more transparent pricing and that is also what the what we have now implemented we want to make the nature and prices of open access publishing services more more transparent to build to rebuild confidence between the stakeholders and to show to show that prices are fair and reasonable and to restart uh some competition in in that market which is now of course solely lacking we have therefore recently announced our price transparency requirements and from july 22 onwards uh only those publishers who offer price transparency uh will be eligible to receive publication funds from coalition as members so that's a strong statement we require transparency otherwise no pay um the two approved price breakdown frameworks for this purpose are the following there's one by the fair open access alliance of which i am the president as you know this is has already been implemented by uh from tears mit press copernicus and mpi and the second one is the plan as price and transparency framework that was developed by information power and this has been piloted not implemented but piloted by a number of publishers that you do see there from annual reviews all the way to spring of nature uh what is the difference between these two breakdown uh frameworks the difference is the following uh the plan is uh the information power uh breakdown is an is is very fine grain it's on the journal level so uh we ask publishers there to provide information on the journal level in terms of prices for the services and also a number of other information the pieces of information the breakdown of publisher application services from the fair open access alliance is a bit more coarse grained and it can be implemented at the publisher level so a publisher especially a small publisher for instance can easily say look we have this apc let's say 1100 and that apc can be cut down in the following components we do that because this is this makes it easier for certain publishers especially small publishers to make the effort because if you have lots of journals that you have to do this for of course this requires considerable resource resource now eventually of course we will want to have price transparency at the journal level but we also want this to be publishers to be able to do this gradually and that's why we have these two uh these two frameworks in for price transparency so it's not one size fits all that's also an important message we want to send with this transparent pricing an example of this transparent pricing is for instance the one by fair open access alliance we have several service buckets that we want to publish publishers to price one is journal operations the second one is publication fees to editors what what are the expenses what is communication what is gen what is more general costs what are discounts and waivers so these are the kinds of things that we want transparency for this is also then allows researchers and libraries to compare across publishers eventually and to see where the best price the best value for price lies and we will we also hope that this will restart competition in this this important area another thing that we are looking at is how to support the diamond publishing non-apc funding models we say in principle five that we support the diversity of business models but of course criticism that we have often heard is you are only looking at gold open access you are only looking at legacy publishers now the reason why we look at why we have looked in the past at legacy publishers first is that we also want to take into account our researchers whether we like it or not these legacy publishers are where our researchers want to publish and of course we can start from scratch and build new journals and ask our researchers to to publish there but that is not going to win the race eventually eventually we are going to have to also accommodate our researchers and put pressure on the legacy publishers to change the system towards a more fair system a more transparent system and that is why we started there and we cannot do everything at the same time at the same time we are very much aware that there are diamond models out there that are very important in certain disciplines and one problem for the funders and I'm saying this very honestly is simply that diamond initiatives rarely rely on per unit payments and the per unit payment is for for funders at least the most easy payment because it is volume right I mean a funder gives out grants within those grants there is an item for publication for publication fees and that's very easy to administer and to to to have an overview of for funders to indiscriminately shower all diamond initiatives that exist in the world with all the money that they would want is is is a lot more difficult how do you do that what are your criteria so that is why we want attend why we want to launch a tender for study on diamond journals and platforms that asks the question how we can fund how we can support diamond publishing there we want an analysis of the global landscape and the funding models and we want to know how how we can do this globally and what what is what is really needed and how we can bring this forward now the tender for this process closed on April 24 and we received 11 proposals to do this and the outcome will be made made public next week and I think you you will like it because it involves a very large consortium of players that that I have been very active in the past in this in this arena but I can't tell you now we will announce it next next week so this is also part of our activities now as part of our other activities is is is that we have now established an office at ESF in Strasbourg that office is paid for with a grant of two two million it's contributed by a subset of coalition as funders I have to stress that being member of coalition as does not mean that you have to pay a membership fee it's membership fees are completely voluntary but this was the case here we had now have a program manager in place since February 2020 that's Nora Pape Le Roi there's Robert Kiley who continues at the coordinator of plan S from the welcome trust in London and there is myself who is talking to you from his home in Brussels and I'm the open access champion and I am the person who tries to present plan S and present it and represents the coalition in events such as such as these today now to conclude I would like to say that of course plan S and open access is part of the much much wider open science movement open science is not just about articles articles I send the gateway to data but it's also about of course open software open metrics open open pay review and many more other things that we want to see made open this has to be said and of course the last thing I would say is that the ambition is to make open access possible but in order to do that we need a global coalition a coalition of all colors of open access and of funders of institutions of researchers and of publishers and I would like to stop there and give the floor to over to discussion if you would like okay I'll stop sharing my screen thanks a lot Johan so we have over a dozen of questions sir and I don't know how I want to proceed to take them now or take them off the news talk because there are questions in the Q&A yes is there anything that most pressing here now that you would like me to because I mean I don't know how many of these there are there are a lot at least 16 questions maybe I don't see them all I see let me see in the green round do the authors need to retain copyright in order to comply with bananas yes preferably now of course Rome isn't built in a day I mean it might be that this is not always easy to obtain but yes we would definitely like the authors to tell the publisher that they want to keep copyright yes one more question for Johan why is a journal checker being developed and already some available like Simago Simago is not a journal checker tool it will not allow you to see whether a journal is under a transformative agreement it will not allow you to see whether a journal is is compliant with planets of course it's a journal finder tool but it's not a journal checker tool how do you envisage that planets can make publishing much less costly yes I wish well one of the things I do envisage I do think that the fact that these prices will be more transparent will kickstart competition between publishers again I mean if the price differences are too great and they are not properly justified there will be there will be a move away from those those publishers right if for the same price you have served better elsewhere you will go elsewhere that is my that is my answer here and then if you open q&a here I'll read some of them to you it's it's next participants okay let me see ah sorry I didn't see that is there somewhere a list of funders who will plan implement planets from January 1st to 2nd yes you can you can see that on our website I believe I think there's three that are starting UK a right welcome and research island island the Irish funder SFI I think that's joining us and then the others will follow uh very soon after that this is a very specific one and remove the commitment to flip by December 2024 well yes we removed the commitment to flip by December 24 because it was very difficult and this was not just one publisher many publishers many publishers said that it's very difficult for them to commit for all their journals to flip by by 2024 so it was much easier to put in a percentage at which they have to flip because that that gives them a bit of extra time beyond 2024 um this isn't this is what what we decided a key actor in the process are librarians they must understand that workflow workflows change I think this is not a question but yeah and then there is a question journal checker tool how to provide data for local journals maybe through doj yes doj will definitely be be involved in the journal checker tool and of course you can also simply contact the the supplier for the journal checker tool which will be uh uh uh whose name will be made available next week so by all means contact them to say that you want to be considered in their tool um so the question from Alexi Koalewski correct me if I am wrong but only country can join this an issue what's your single institution it's well single institute well in principle I mean we started with research funding organizations but it is also possible for research performing organizations to join if they commit to implementing the principles of planets so it's not countries joining indeed tomah is right that it's not that it's not countries uh by university that is certainly something that is that that we can consider universities cannot be remembered tomah says but it's that it's it's not so clear this is really something that we are willing to consider um what do I see yeah comment from coalition members discarding coordination of policy yes every day actually um beyond the different funders of planets are are moving at a similar pace and we aren't coordinating these these these efforts that does not mean that all of the all of the policies will be identical but they are moving in the same direction um what is I think tomah has already answered a lot of questions for me that's great tomah by the way is part of the early career researchers that we are that we are talking with so many thanks tomah a double question will be updated by the time yes of course there is there is a difference between transformative agreements pavel and uh and the transformative journals uh the transformative agreements are really meant to to be at the library consortia level and the transformative journals are for those uh for those journals who who have more difficulty entering into transformative agreement uh the reason that we have these different tools is is is quite simple we do not want to give the publishers an excuse not to move forward I hope that helps a little bit in answering your question what else can the publishers be encouraged to share some kind of plan s compliant page or seal in journal page it might be difficult to get the researchers to go to one journal check a database why why would it be difficult I'm not sure that I understand where is this question it's the first one in open questions now marco can publish it yes and kind of um well they could certainly be encouraged the question is that we don't want to rely on the publishers we want to make make sure that we are that we are able to help our researchers as well I mean uh uh uh publishers is really going to say oh we are not planned as compliant don't publish with us right I mean that's that's not likely so that's why we have the journal checker tool that will give you a straight answer um do we have from from kundler or the second one in open I think the tma one with library consortium is important are you aware of any library organizations that have adopted this model well yes I uh there are many actually so for but but of course it's on uh it depends on every so for instance the the microbiology society has adopted tma's for instance with all the UK libraries they they have an agreement in place like this but also with many other countries in Europe and also in the US USA with a number of with a number of libraries there you should see on their website I don't know by heart how many but I know that they are at least they have at least agreements the microbiologists excited now with seven or eight or eight library consortia around the world of course this is slow going in the beginning but I think it will it will pick up speed as as as this is shown to be successful is that a good answer it's an early question about collision as also strongly encourages the research data and other research outputs and are made as open as possible and as close as necessary is also a task force in the collision busy with this topic research data management no we are not we are not about data we can't we can't like I said we can't do everything we are really focused on articles and open access articles so we do we do not have a task force on open data that is something that will also be taken over I think by eosk and by the conditions that are attached to that that will be determining yes TAs are not supported after 2024 does this simply mean that publishing and the transformative is not compatible no it does not mean that of course I mean we hope that there will be just we we just hope that there will be many transformative agreements in place after 2024 so that things are in open access it's just that we have set ourselves a timeline for now of 2024 that is that is all it means right so by then we hope to have affected major change of course it is more it is very likely the coalition as will subsist after that time but our plans now are up until 31st December 2024 and then we will regroup and reorganize for the next bit I think then a second question from Thomas Lunden thanks for the presentation Johan about the journal check at all will it give information on copyright retention and licenses also for green AM versions of articles I think well enough in its first iteration we want to check we want to look at those journals that are that do allow the author to retain copyright and then they do allow for since you buy so that's the first iteration and much more information will be added afterwards but we can't do everything at the same time also in this journal checker tool we have to get a rough version ready that will work and that's that's what we're doing now and then we will refine the properties in the in the sense asked by by Thomas I think but this is this is of course something that we need to work out to see where the priorities lie for the for the all the bells and whistles attention this journal checker tool and the second one from Ryan is a discussion about effect on only career researchers and sanctions for non-compliance no there is no there is no news yet on on the sanctions for non-compliance we this is something that we have no fixed policy on within planets this is something that we believe to each funder to decide individually what the sanctions should be but sanctions there will be of course but this is something that of course really depends a lot on local law for instance as well and this so this is not something that you can put without one international policy for does that answer the question we'll see and then a question from from Garret sir how will cost effectiveness not price effectiveness of the transformative arrangements be measured second one in the least cost effectiveness of the transformative agreement how will you measure that I don't think we will I had to think a little bit because first of all I mean we very specifically say that we we want price transparency not cost transparency because costs is something that you cannot ask a publisher to share I mean this is all this is all tied up with legal issues so you cannot ask them for costs we can also only ask them to give out their as their prices like I said before I mean what we hope that will happen is that by making these prices available on a central website where you can compare across publishers what they ask for the for different operations is that this will will drive prices that mention cost effectiveness is is is something that is very hard to measure for us I believe we can't really do that but of course we will be able to compare a lot of interesting information is going to come out of this we don't have this information now one of the things for instance you have to you have to put this in the context of of of the way planets was devised I mean in the beginning people some of the people in planet said that we had to have a price cap I've always thought that the price cap on ABCs was a very bad idea simply because we don't know what goes into the costs and what goes into the prices let me give you one example the there is this difference at plus between plus one and plus biology now the plus plus one you pay 1700 for an APC and plus biology you pay 3000 something like that now what is the difference the difference is simply this at plus biology plus hires pays researchers in house as editors right at plus one they don't you know this has to be this has to be the salaries have to be paid so that's why the APC is higher there and this is the case at many publishers they have in house editor of course this is not the case for instance in my field the humanities I mean I am the editor and I do all the work out of my university salary but apparently many publishers have in house editors and this this is a cost that has to be paid that's but that's something that we want to know and to be able to compare across publishers right and the number one now from check I think you said sage and emerald now allow version of record to be added to institutional repositories is this correct yes I believe that is correct I should go back to my slides but I think it's correct yes then the second one from second question from miho from the mori it was not mentioned in the present presentation but why is the price transparent transparency rule applied also to non-apc journals I fear this will be difficult for society journals especially those journals which are published outside western countries well look we would love this for this to be applied to non-apc journals I think actually also diamond diamond journals should should apply this price transparency rule if it's possible um it may be difficult for society journals so that's also why we don't we don't absolutely require it but of course there's also various other reasons I mean society journals are very small operations usually they're also they're already open they are they are they're often not they are not companies so they have their books are more open and more accessible but in any case I mean we don't object to these society journals presenting their their price breakdown but but indeed we also don't require it but for instance the society the microbiology society has been very open about this they have opened their books they said look this is the price that we require per article this is um you can see that in that presentation this is what we need to to have our six journals running and of course there is nothing I mean since we are in out in the open now and trying to transform this there's nothing that prevents these these societies from being more more open with their their particular costs and I would certainly welcome such a move yeah a couple more and then we'll we'll go do we'll have news presentations sorry sorry for keeping you waiting news news journals no we don't accept mirror journals that's very simple one they are trying to treat it as hybrid and they can at most they can be the transformative option the transformative option of their subscription mayor but we do not accept mirror journals what about research at smaller institutes um yes that's that is that is a that is a good one I would say I would say try to form a consortium I don't know of course my what you are who you are referring to what what institutes you are referring to but of course one way of doing this would be simply to join coalition s as a small institute and the people help will there be a study on such initiatives no right now we don't have a study on the on let's say sage on say sage and emerald to see how this how this affects their their their income that is not something for us to do I think sage and emerald themselves should should come out with that information I believe but it's this is something that came out of my discussions with with with them that this is actually something that they are very happy to do your question from pilar are you making context context with research and development religion agencies plan s include specific obligations for them not right now but if you think that we should then then we can I mean we are explicitly not not we are explicitly not engaging fully in dora in the sense that we are not fully developing our own dora policy I mean we follow dora dora guidelines and we follow we implement them at the various funders so what we what we pledge is that researchers applying for grants will be evaluated with qualitative criteria instead of quantitative criteria that is what we commit to right what research what aren't the agencies do is not something that we can directly influence and this is probably something that is more that is more for dora and maybe for universities to to do but we are not directly doing that work then from ryan first one now what time line is in place to ensure all publishers move to plan s journal level price transparent that is july 2022 by july 2022 the publishers will have to have provided this information and then again from pilar about reasonable pricing well reasonable pricing is is pricing that that asks that that you see a leveling out of prices for certain services at some point you know I mean when you see for instance that outfits that make very little I mean what for me would be a reasonable price is the following a publisher who makes between who makes profits of between six and seven percent right something like that who asks a very low and who asks a relatively low abc for for for that for that purpose that that I think would be a reasonable price what is not a reasonable what is not a reasonable price is a publisher who asks for three to four thousand euros per article and makes profit of 35 percent that is not reasonable I hope we can agree on that and then the question whether collision s wants to make a statement about council fuel europe directive on open data and reuse of public sector information no we have no statement on that because we don't have to because we are not about open data again we are really about open access of articles open data is something that we will leave to ios can to those initiatives that will administer open data and whether you engage with creative commons europe no there is no direct link for a link for now we are just following their recommendations for cc by for cc by license yeah and guards thank you for your answer why they still plan an apc cap not for now we are hoping that we are hoping that the price transparency will give us information about these things and of course if we see that things are not moving in the same direction in the in the in the right direction in the sense that prices stabilize at at at at at a reasonable what we think is a reasonable level for the various services then a price cap can be envisaged of course but this is something that has to be looked at in in the future we first have to get those data right now we don't know what motivates the prices of the publishers so we first need to get that information and we need to get that information analyzed thanks a lot sir and thanks thanks for waiting new so now we move on to the second part of our webinar and it's about the national mapping exercise how national roadmap could be implemented sir in compliance with so plan s and that's names presentation thanks the million and arena and your hand those wonderful presentation how long have i gone serena i just want to check with you did you hear me yes yes um i don't know as as long as you need i guess sir okay great we'll be here all day and i'm only joking and thanks so much your hand that was really interesting and i'm going to speak to you from the perspective of a national open research policymakers who were in the middle of writing their policy when plan s came riding into town all guns blazing so what did we do so that's the story that i think is not unique to our island is one that we've that we've seen and i have to say that this is um that we are we have a major funder in our end our biggest funder is a signatory of uh plan s and is a member of the group that we are working on so where this is this is something about how we work with plan s on the ground i also want to say i was the um the chair of the publications task group under the initial phase of north national open research forum and um that is now moving on and there's quite a lot of developments taking place you can see from what yoan has told us that plan s is a moving target it keeps changing all the time that's a really good thing what we're doing is well every country their national consortium people etc are all working in this area but i'm just i've been asked to talk about this experience that we had with mapping our policy as it was developing with plan s so i just go through here so for those of you who are don't know where our island is um sorry i'm just going to my my um presentation well there it is it's very small that's one of the um most important things to say about it and we have a very tiny population and there's some other things about it as well we had a major crash um so we were in serious trouble um for some time you might have heard about this and in libraries the reality was that we were lucky to hold on to our subscriptions to a lot of journals we had to cancel a lot of journals at that particular time so we really know about you know the pressures on trying to to um to keep access um Ireland at the same time more than doubled its horizon 2020 funding it's considered by some people by the EU to be the EU leader in innovation from SMEs quantitative rankings tell us that it's 11th and the word if you believe that kind of thing so um let's take a look in Ireland open access has always been linked in really strongly with innovation with jobs and with the wealth and the um the prosperity of our society from the very beginning way back we did that and they had this idea that we were going to this is innovation 2020 it's Ireland's national policy for development of our science and strategy and research and innovation strategy as well and right in the middle of that innovation 2020 policy is open access saying that we will facilitate access to scientific publications science meaning of course all disciplines and also that we're going to join up for integrate on support open access repositories a national research classification system the university's research information systems the grant management systems and all kinds of things like that so that's the context we're not seeing it as something that is purely about not about libraries particularly it's not about you know about costs of society this is what it's about it's about impact and it's about making the world a better place the kind of scholarly publishing landscape we're talking about here then is there's no native large commercial academic journal publishers in Ireland I would suggest that's quite significant in terms of the fact that um we and we do have some small academic book publishers especially in arts and humanities and social sciences and they're very much valued but um and there's a handful of of learned societies um that are just my um that've learned societies there's tiny independent emerging open access publishers 16 are there about listed in the DOAJ we have no national policies our funds for the payments of APCs as yet now I've been careful I'm watching over my shoulder because that could change very quickly but in in our 15-year tradition of open access we don't have we've never paid we've never had a national policy around APCs and payments we've had a massive growth in scholarly publishing especially in journal articles in the first 10 years of funding in Ireland and thereafter and all of our funders and most of our institutions mandated open access green from 2008 onwards and that's not all that unusual we have a national infrastructure of repositories and a national open access portal that was developed from around 2002 onwards um we have in most institutions universities we have the research information system the chris systems with some level of um integration with the repositories now that might sound a bit geeky but really what it means at the institutional level is that repositories and research information systems feed information into the universities telling giving the universities business intelligence and information about how they're doing and that's really important from the point of view of the institutions who have to show impact just as surely as as the funders have to show impact and the individual researchers to institutions need to do that as well and I'll come back to that a little bit later because I'm not entirely sure that the institution is doing all that well out of this they tend to be the Cinderella's in this situation doing a lot of work and providing an environment and actually not really getting a huge amount back so the national open access policies in Ireland were developed started being developed in 2012 onwards this is a view of our open access repository network so when you give you an idea it's pretty extensive and there's all kinds of consortia going on with the institutes of technology who have their own repositories and we have our national portal re-in that can give us a view of the numbers of funded by funder of the research outputs and it can also give us a breakdown by institution over time so this is looking kind of okay from the point of view of monitoring it's not all that great though it has to be said because as I mean you all know that it's not just enough to build an infrastructure you have to build a whole lot of other things around it and you have to maintain that infrastructure so let's see how are we doing one of the great good news stories that we've had of course is HRB open research which is an open research and publishing platform and that does continuous publishing open peer review and a whole lot of other really interesting things so that's been a very interesting game changer funded by the health research board one of our very innovative funders in when it comes to open access so our Irish open access policy timeline really started back in 2007 when the URAB recommendations to the European Commission had a chair who happened to be Professor Jane Grimson from Trinity College Dublin who who had a group of researchers who fed right into the European Commission's very first mandate on open access and that was the researcher's viewpoint so that that's in our roots I mentioned that to you very much because I hope that we're going to stick to to those kind of roots as well that influence and the influence of Professor Grimson who was also sitting on the chair of as the chair of the science foundation Ireland and of the Irish research councils in science engineering and technology was incredibly influential it led to almost immediately to open access green open access mandates supportive of our researchers and using the infrastructure that we built in 2008 by 2010 all of our funders had open access green mandates and while it was clear that there were some charges in the minority of Charles going on it never entered our mandates at any point in 2012 we built our national principles on open access publications policy so there was a statement on that that you can check and that was aligned with the European policy at the time but we had a problem there because we have this wonderful policy but there was no mechanism for implementing it and this is a really key thing you can have all the wonderful policies that you like but if you don't have a mechanism for implementing them then you can it's they're not worth the paper that they're written on so and this slide is from Dr Patricia Clark who from the HRB I've just adapted it slightly the National Open Research Forum was established in 2017 and that brought together a whole lot of different groups of people to try and work on a more comprehensive policy that was going to take in research data as well as publications rewards and incentives skills and training and all of the other areas that were required that group was just about to launch its national framework on the transition to an open research environment where as I say in September or the summer of 2018 when boom incomes plan s to everybody's surprise so and that didn't look at all like what we've been working on before in its first iteration I have to say again plan s has moved on a huge amount it looks quite different to the way it did at this particular time but we still have to deal with it and to try and juggle this compliance with what we wanted to do on the ground so there's some information on the National Open Research Forum and its time period it's now going into its second iteration so that's that's about to kick off the chairs are the higher education authority the health research board a funder and the authority of body over all of the higher education institutions in Ireland the secretary came from our government ministry of business enterprise and innovation so you see that connection again is coming all the time with this kind of idea of impact reporting to the innovation 2020 committee ideally and hopefully with funding we're hoping from the national development plan that's where it's where it's it's with us the working groups who are on publications that's my group which I see more of Caffrey is here I hope Yvonne Desmond and a few of the others who I acknowledge at the end of this presentation there was a group on fair data and infrastructure and the membership is there so the whole idea was to work in synergy with other relevant EU international discussions and develop this common understanding and awareness of national requirements make the best use of existing capacity very importantly avoid duplication of efforts and inconsistencies and advise on timely and efficient implementation in Ireland of EU policy development so you know quite an easy thing and I should say obviously that this is all you know voluntary work that people were given to this area nobody's we've got no ministry department who's responsible for this type of activity in Ireland as yet a key document was the European Commission's recommendations of the 25th of April 2018 so just keep an eye on these dates so that was you know mid-2018 and we were ready to that was very important it set out a cure and roadmap for member states and that's still in place that member states should set and implement clear policies and that they have to be accompanied by clear objectives and indicators to measure progress implementation plans including the allocation of responsibilities and appropriate licensing and critically for us associated financial planning something that we've never really had before so this is the document we centered everything we've mapped everything to this and I said and then in comes plan S out of the blue you know so that or at least it seems from the point of view that that that was the situation we had a major funder who had signed it and we immediately had to sit down and just make some decisions very quickly one was do we throw out our national plan which we would be working on for two years to try and see if we could and just go with with plan S with coalition S and do we just ignore plan S and go ahead with what we were doing that wasn't really an option in a national plan we need to have all of our funders on board right so it's different to you know funders and policies or to individual institutions policies with a national one you need to have all the funders there and obviously we had a plan S signature who was in the middle of this and a very important one too and so we had to do our third route which was we were going to have to find a common ground between plan S and our national policy so here's what we had to sit down and our publication working group will remember this mapping that we did very quickly and we had to do it in about 24 hours so the kind of issues that came up that came out of this the differences between the european commissions policy and this of course is moving on as well at that time April 25th 2018 and plan S which came in in the summer was the restricted choice of um so just only compliant publishers as it appeared and I'm stressing this is the first iteration of plan S plan S has moved on the elimination of embargoes remember the hate transatlantic target mandate allowed for embargoes we always allowed for embargoes right so this elimination of embargoes thing was quite a challenge and so that impacts in its own right on the choice of publisher and the choice of the open access route so the restricted choice of licenses again new we never heard of such a thing our licenses are all CC by SA NC not because we don't like industry you see we're all about industry and and SMEs and innovation but what we're also about is impact for the institutions and the researchers we want the commercial entities to contact us and not just acknowledge out from the blue the wild but to come and work with us if they're engaged in work that we have done and we would still say and many of our researchers would say that is not unreasonable to ask for CC by SA NC in certain circumstances so restricted choice of license a challenge perceived emphasis I'm saying perceived emphasis on the first iteration in the first iteration of plan S on publisher fee based models and remember this there was a lot of consternation about that this is tipping the ballast over in favor of wealthy northern European countries who have a tradition of paying APCs largely based on popping up their extremely profitable publishing industries and has nothing to do with the rest of us who are have no publishing industry using green etc and don't pay APCs and even I've been noticing the saying is even if we had the money to pay them we wouldn't pay them on principle okay that's the there was the view however in the initial plan S mapping in order to gain the unanimous endorsement of the Irish National Funders the north the national open research forum removed its allowance of embargoes and changed its license requirements and you might say that we're awful wimps but we really had no option in this it was we had to do it we had to become um at least plan S friendly and to try and do this but that's not the end of the story we didn't stop there so plan S was generally welcomed by everybody by Leroux by my own institution by the north because we're all working in this common objective for full open access to publications and it's not just Robert Jan Smith it's everybody else are sick to the teeth of having to to work in this and those of us who are working at the cold face I know some of you are out there at the moment who are actually having to trawl around hassle our researchers asking them for the correct versions of the paper go and manually upload this information into a repository obviously we're moving on from that an awful lot really getting a bit tired of it and see this has been really unfair so the fact that plan S we've been asking those of us who are open access advocates have been asking our funders for many years to get more involved because they have genuine clout and this is what plan S is so this is it's great I think it's brilliant um that we're now getting this clarity on alignment across the national statement and plan S we have a much better understanding of these opportunities and concerns for us we have a national consistency across our disciplines and funding streams and we're going to have this practical implementation processes like monitoring for example where we can share that kind of an initiative um but there's still a lot of other areas in the details that we need to work out it is great to see that plan S has coalition has has moved to address some of the concerns about diamond open access addressing the um really addressing the balance with the green um I suggest that we could go a little bit further with that um and also looking at the diamond model and the biblio diversity um I'm hoping that we can come and talk about that in a minute but also um to look at the um the issues of specific disciplines so I know that plan S and coalition as we're looking at this what we did in Ireland we did that mapping and we we got agreement um from the all of our funders agreed we just did enough to to make it palatable and it's not easy to do that for a whole group of people another interest a whole group of different interest groups within a country I should mention that um because it came up with a question when Jan and I were discussing that are Johanna and I were discussing this I'm free before this talk um a national policy isn't talking about a specific group of funded researchers it has to apply to everybody in the country so we actually have the definition of publicly funded and that's anybody who's in receipt of a public salary and that's a different story right so there's no they're not necessarily any funders there to pay for the researchers uh publication charges or further infrastructure or anything else if they're in receipt of the public salary they have to we're saying make their publications open access and that means there's challenges specific challenges for us in how we're going to support them on that there was a national consultation phase that went on in November December 2018 you can see this all moved on really quickly and um we've learned since then that that wasn't long enough and that we would really need to do a lot more consultation and that is something and be much more inclusive in who's spoken to we did what we thought was the was correct at that particular time but um we've since heard as to say that further consultation was needed a national seminar on plan s and national policies was packed to the outdoor in the Royal Art Academy in January 2019 a lot of early career researchers in there and a lot of very worried people especially from arts and humanities coming in there um and after that we went through an endorsement process um just as we were about to publish it there was a robust intervention and I'm putting this mildly from some very senior and important arts and humanities researchers who had very definite amendments to make and I'll tell you what those were in a minute because we we listen to them and we put in everything that they asked for in this after which we were able to present to innovation 2020 and have a ministerial launch so the story doesn't end there here's the national framework on the transition to an open research environment you can see it's all about a journey it's all about movement it says that and that's obviously openly available and they it says these principles build upon existing national and international open research policies and through a planning process to 2020 we'll move to alignment with developing european commission policy and the principles of plan s where appropriate right so the where appropriate is really important um in this area what does it cover well i'll go through this kind of quickly because it's you're not going to see too many surprises in it and so the all publicly funded irish scholarly publications will be openly available by default from 2020 onwards we're saying that's just the default there's a focus on journal articles um recognition of disciplinary differences is recognized um again the transparency about publisher agreements we can see a lot of plan s coming in here but that was already in the european commission policy too um and we have criteria for compliant journals platforms and repositories and we've put in this this part which is all researchers regardless of circumstances will be able to achieve open access and there's a real hostage to fortune if ever i saw one we've also said we had to move we had a piece of text that said that researchers are free to choose their preferred um published occasion they're free to publish where they choose and that was changed um to so long as it's in accordance with the principles and various routes were acknowledged including the green or gold we put back in the embargoes sorry coalition s but we had to do this you know there was absolutely no way that we were going to get agreement from our arts and humanities researchers in particular and the funders who were supporting them unless during the transitional period we were going to acknowledge that some of those embargoes were going to have to be kept in place we're just talking about a transition and the reason why is because we've stated something that i'll come back to in a minute which is about authors retaining copyright now in ireland we don't have a secondary rights legislation we don't have a jet and so the authors typically hand over their copyright there's no national policy to allow it to revert we have nothing in place that's going to support our researchers to um apply the copyright and again i'm going to say this if we don't suffine some ways to support our researchers to retain their copyright and do those deals with the publishers um for them then um it's not worth the paper it's written on it's purely aspirational right it's an empty thing um so copyright is absolutely critical in this area so there's an emphasis in it on supporting publishers who don't charge fees um and most open access publishers don't charge fees so um and of course at that time there was capping of the fees and that's not there anymore and of course no support for open access fees for hybrid which we never paid anyway right we'd know a tradition of that all our arts and humanities in particular researchers came in they they insisted on an underlying principles that all researchers in ireland would have access to the resources necessary to enable them to publish through open access without prejudice this underlying principles inserted um and um we wrote a preamble to which you can have a look at online that sees that there's a commitment to a consultative planning process in ireland that's going to take place over the next um period of time that has committed to the engagement of all of the stakeholders particularly researchers at every career stage representing all disciplines and there's this commitment to respect engage with and support the research community address disciplinary professional national and global concerns to benefit researchers equally and this is really important avoid unintended consequences the butterfly effect that thing where you have that little butterfly flapping its wings and something terrible happens somewhere else special consideration to less well understood areas especially humanities early career researchers researchers who don't have grants publicly funded researchers with no formal institutional affiliation we're talking about casualization in higher education and let us acknowledge the reality here small independent non-profit publishers and journals especially irish journals learning societies and researchers and citizens in the global south and citizen scientists so that's just all we have to do over the next year or so the next steps a national coordination has been is is going to be appointed um for the for to oversee this the north two committees are already being established the national consultation will take place um within an 18 month period and then we have a new national action plan so all the time we'll be watching and working with coalition s but also with the other agencies to and and what they're discovering what they're finding to try and make this work for those for um uh making sure that we have a coherent policies but also making sure that this is going to work for our researchers on the ground so we can say plan s our national framework is plan s friendly but its primary concern is to be irish research friendly we have to say that we're also hoping that our framework is going to be america friendly in terms of its emphasis on academy based infrastructures and alternatives to fee based publishing and that is not i have to say saying anything about coalition s and america is just that's what we want to be able to do and in addition we're saying that we want to we committed our actual plan to being cognizant of the issues and supportive of scholarly communication initiatives in the global south and that's very important to us and to our researchers this idea of equity and open knowledge hoping for whom is really important to us we're not although we might be in northern europe and we're not one of those wealthy countries with big publishing industries as i say and we're very committed to the achievement of the un sustainable development goals and the student survey that we had in trinity last year for soapbox 23 student journals are moving over to open access which is wonderful but some of the primary things and thanks shane and collins for this information when they were asked when they said about the importance of their publications making society and culture impact the majority of the students said it was absolutely essential and when they were asked about the importance of publications being read and engaged with my people from diverse backgrounds and physical abilities it the vast majority of them said it was absolutely essential so our younger researchers are telling us that this is going to happen so the change will happen very quickly i wanted to mention something about biblio diversity a case study that i looked at in arts and humanities recently showed some information that actually surprised the people themselves who are working in this area we discovered in the study of history and of english language and literature by using the chris system which is the only way that we're going to find this information on the landscape right you're not going to find it in scopas or in web of science because they don't cover the journals right so we discovered that a very small number of articles are published in the major commercially published academic journals like oxford university press right so our this is specific to our area i'd love to see other people doing this right and comparing their findings in these areas and on the ground so many of our arts and humanities researchers said oh my god what are we going to do we can't afford to pay the open access charges for oxford university press and they had massive embargoes of you know 24 you know months or something like that listen do you know what that's not as big a problem as you might think it is you know green open access with zero or minimal embargoes were possible for the vast majority of the commercially published articles with no need for apcs or they can get away with their very short embargoes as well however some of the commercial publishers especially in arts and humanities require embargoes of 24 to 36 months for god's sake excuse me and a relatively small number of papers are in the doha of the publishers journals are in doha registered open access journals the vast majority of the papers published were via an extremely diverse range of small independent non-commercial journals many of whom are difficult to locate our contact the university of Iowa somebody working in an office they're probably in the middle of the night and that's where our a lot of our people are publishing a single paper in a multitude of journals many of these publishers are what i would consider to be at risk they're minuscule operations they have no technical support or standards they don't know what they need to do they've probably never heard of planus and they urgently need support to survive and to transition themselves to diamond open access we're not necessarily talking about paying them we're talking about support and but it's into a very diverse very fragile ecosystem so I wanted to mention that i'm going to run out of time here in this i was worried about this so i'm going to go quite quickly and through this so the issues about copyright and we're in agreement on this yeah Johanna myself are but in order to be more research and institution supportive i would like to see all of our policies move to support researchers to retain their copyright and it's not easy in reality i have already made the case for a greater choice of licenses without adding in another process for researchers to go through give them the information trust them to make the right choice and offer them that choice and allow them to do it is what i would say because it is causing us a problem on the ground in relation to this and i mentioned already that non-commercial is not anti-enterprise it's pro researcher and it's pro institutional impact immediate open access and choice of open access routes in order to be more researcher and institution support requires the elimination of embargoes on the AAM on all hybrid journals under transformative agreements before there's any discussion on subscriptions or APCs that's the first thing before we sit down and talk to them get rid of those embargoes on the AAM and require the publishers in receipt of funding of any kind to facilitate the deposit metadata and the content into the back to the parent institution for those publishers who are not engaged in transformative agreements and to apply copyright retention and require the deposit of the AAM and if we can't do that then we have to allow a limited embargoes for some disciplines during a transitional phase as we've done that's that's the reality okay so with the peer project i showed the publisher embargoes has absolutely no effect in fact the the repositories were driving traffic towards the um towards the publishers website we're actually working as marketers for them and we can see as well evidence fails to justify publishers demand for longer embargo period periods in the london school of economics impact blog and the times higher says open access no evidence that zero embargo periods harm publishers just as your hand said and just as we've seen so we this needs to be finished over over and done with right now and i'd love to apply if coalition has could help us together to just work with publishers to do this so unfortunately the recent focus on APCs and the page reader in hybrid journals has led the evidence is there to publishers introducing or extending embargoes where they never existed before and obstructing green away that is the problem with focusing on one side of open access it can hurt another side of it and that is why the embargoes need to be challenged the second thing is in diamond publishing and biblio diversity i've mentioned this already we're all in agreement on this that we want to support academy led or um diamond publishing um but in order to support that we do need to provide attention to this area and it's i know that the per unit payment is the easy way to do it but nobody ever said this was going to be easy there's a there's a infrastructural requirement here that would help those university of Iowa or whoever it is down in county limerick to run their journals which are obviously important to our researchers because they're publishing there right so they need support in order to keep going and they need support in order to become do a j compliant so we have to help them further down the stream before they actually get to this this thing and we need to find ways to support at-risk journals that meet the criteria if you can find them so before it's too late this will result in in leveling the playing field the copyright is free that's sorry the copyright is key so a lot of countries have enacted rights and we need concrete support for copyright for um retention to be available to all researchers in all countries we need to restore the freedom of our authors to publish where they choose because authors are starting to look at open access as being a problem and we don't want to we've never presented it as a problem before it's always been an advantage we want to show that it's achievable by all authors in all disciplines not just funded authors and not just an institution affiliated authors in some disciplines we want to support the parent institution by facilitating its management of its own research outputs not it's not good enough to have all this stuff out in the wild somewhere so i'm asking for the attention of publishers and funders to this give the parent institutions some kind of help with this and give them back their content their metadata and their information on impact and we need much greater emphasis and support for repositories and non-commercial journals so in that way we can show that open access is not an external imposition that researchers are supported to achieve something that they want to do anyway and that open access will benefit them in terms of impact recognition skills control of their work and their rights and improved research infrastructure that open access is easy to achieve and that local infrastructures and supports are there to help them that researchers can publish where they wish and achieve open access that open access will be automated as much as possible deposit metadata creation and sharing saving us all masses of time and money that minority languages marginalised groups and disciplines independent academy-based publishing are supportive and that scholarly communication finally becomes ethical and equitable from a global perspective i'm going to leave you with just a final thought this journal is the journal of the statistical and social inquiry society of ireland it was published for the first time in 1847 a time of of plague and of um i think pandemic and starvation where the population of of our country was cut in half at least and and that's journal started off at the particular time in order to address the great challenges of our society at that time that journal continues to be published it's published on open access it's diamond all the archives almost 200 years of them are available on open access the cost of publishing that journal is equivalent to less than the cost of a typical two apc's per annum right and yes and oh actually because it's recognized some names oscar wilds father and sir vizag bot various other people movers and shakers in society at the time policymakers this journal was at its instigation and continues to be academy-led mission-driven supporting evidence-based policymaking a fully open access 21st journal that started in 1847 it's diamond no fees or subscription and doesn't want any rejected the idea of apc's but that journal needs to be acknowledged to take its place alongside the ones that are all shouting for money and so on and i want to leave you with that thought at this time thank you very much for me margaret thanks a lot new and there are lots of thanks sir in in the chat as well so we have five questions and if you could stay with us for maybe five more minutes to answer them that would be great so if you go we need to q&a yeah the first one is from kuhn leola thank you new for the presentation how does the national open access portal work all universities libraries in island connected to the national open access portal this is a this is a great question and it's one of the ones that you see a lot of these infrastructures that were built on the open access repositories on the open access initiative protocol for metadata harvesting so it's all built on open source software so and this is something that's actually is really important in open science so they this was funded by the um a project the libraries were involved in it and the funders and it's built on the open access repositories in all of the universities and in a number of other institutions that um that have joined it since then it could still be developed further but 10 years later it's still very functional we'd like to be able to see it do more and but again that will remain to be seen about whether we can do that under the terms of terms of the national open research framework so i can answer the question thanks and there is a question from raluka how do you see the relation between open access and responsible research and innovation another brilliant question so our eyes obviously some of this major issue that's coming into um to that we have to address and those of us who are involved in the european university alliances we know that we have to address it in our in our proposals um so um open science is a key within one of the um parts of our eye but it's strongly linked in with um open access and open science linked in with research integrity also and indeed we can even bring in the elements of gender equity and open innovation to that too one of the courses that i run for for all of our research students that our phd students in trinity is actually called research integrity and impact in an open scholarship era so all of our students have to do that course and they get the r r i and the research integrity alongside how to manage their data how to and how to be open access how they're evaluated and what fair evaluation looks like for them so they're equipped to go anywhere in the world and know not only how what these things mean we're hoping they'll be able to take a leadership role in that so yeah it's really important then um question from alexa kowalowski what libraries were in the center of start of open access national movement and help to create national open access repository policies or open access policies sir yeah so i mean that that's a bit we've got a very small country so even when one small institution moves quickly then everybody else pays attention the first university in ireland to set up an open access repository was minuth university back around 2002 which was the time you know dspace became available eprint started becoming involved and it was actually down i got to mention that susanne redmond meloko um sometimes we have individual pioneers and leaders who who just go ahead and they do something and they lead their institutions in this way and that's what we've seen dcu dumb city university was the next one trinity was the next and then we got a um a group of mass a critical mass around it the um the government saw that there was a requirement for this and a project became a project funded became available so we built together brought in the all of the universities and some of the other institutions came in there at that time so that's you that's how it started okay this one here which is um do irish universities have and if they have maintain their own oa os policies or do you have a national policy only again that's that's a really good one there's a real mixture so that what we've got um here is that most irish um irish universities have similar policies on as regards open access to the funders and those were green open access so in my institution in trinity we have a green open access policy from 2010 onwards so we're seeing that um that our institutions often follow the funders and they they localize the the requirements our funders and our institutions together because we're so small are always looking at the european commission and always looking at what's happening welcome trust obviously was incredibly influential and we're always looking at um we're we're also looking at america and and other um uh agencies out there to see what they're doing in order to get the best conversion we share information a lot across like any family of course there's fierce competition that goes on at some levels but at the infrastructure level and update this area of policies the irish universities and higher education institutions work really well together and so they share their policies there so they maintain their owns but the national policy is supposed to they're supposed to the institutions are supposed to hopefully endorse that down the line and we'll all have the same policies which will make life easier for our researchers of course um and that's important with with plan s as well i think is when we think about our researchers we really don't want to have a whole bunch of different messages coming to them at the same time we want to try and help them deposit once or do something once and it will everything that they need to do will happen out of that so um what challenges did you encounter when you initiated and developed national open access infrastructure do you know i mean the the if you're talking about the repositories and the um the harvesting and so on that is such a tried and true true model the dutch started it and i think um 2005 or thereabouts um open air was built on the this whole idea of distributed repositories it's kind of like basing acting local and thinking global and so um it works really well in this environment so because it's so well tried and trusted and well proven at this stage there's actually not that difficult to run an actual open access infrastructure in this regard the difficulty is trying to mainstream it the infrastructure outside of it we need more we need national digital preservation lair for example our national chris system fell down because and we really need that to be linked in so um so there's a lot more that we need to do in that so it's keeping things going and mainstreaming projects that are the biggest challenges um how do funders plan to work directly with publishers to fund diamond journals oh that's an interesting one i think that's one for yoan um to see i know you're doing a study on it now um yoan so but i don't know if you have any ideas on this about what will specific subjects be identified will there be an application process set up or is it too early to tell yoan i think you're still muted yoan you mean in which application process for so the question is from ryan and he's asking how do you funders plan to work directly with publishers to fund diamonds journals in your existing would specific subjects be identified and would there um be an application process set up i'm suggesting it might be a bit too early for you for coalition s since you have this study going on but perhaps you have some ideas on this i don't think i don't i don't think we would work with um with publishers to well it depends what you mean by publishers right i mean if you see the open library of humanities as a publisher i mean i would love to work with the open library of humanities i already work with them because i mean my journal is being published there glossize uh and we are supported by them um would there be an application process set up i mean i i don't know this is this is really all too too early to tell uh my own feeling is we don't need additional journals i mean there are really enough journals out there um we may need some new diamond journals in specific topic of subjects that that is true but again we won't know uh unless we have the overview of of the field the overview that we need i mean diamond is is is a very diverse landscape um i mean it's very different in south america from from northern europe it's still different in the u.s or in south africa i mean we really need a much more complete overview of what is out there i mean because we under we totally underestimate its impact so before we can say look we need journals here and there maybe we should first see what there is and what needs to be consolidated and and helped forward yeah i'm going to be really interested Johan to see how you're studying the agency that you've contracted to to undertake this i'm very intrigued with all of your secret information i'm dying to find out so that was my purpose right i mean everybody very curious uh and what what for what we are doing so um that's and it's great that you're doing it and what i'm hoping is that we'll be able to work locally to try and identify some of these journals i have to say i was really surprised when i looked at the what was going on in some of our areas and and imagine again the only way of knowing what's happening in these how where the publishing behavior is going on it's through chris systems if you have them where they registry of the and so the chris systems are absolutely vital in this there's no other way of finding out where these things are i was able to look up at chris over the past five years and find out exactly where people in history and humanities are publishing and that's where those single in individual little journals came in i wrote to the journals and asked them and their editors who were very kind mostly usually professors in other institutions and they got back to me straight away and they said but of course you can deposit the and the paper in the repository we have no problem with that at all so they're already open they just don't even they're not living in this world i really think they need some help and support to do this i would be very concerned that i think as i said to costus linus at one point that i said if europe is about anything it's about diversity and we're going to find that this is going to be even more important in our new abnormal situation post-covid that we're going to i totally agree actually that's i mean that i personally think that that will accelerate open access i really hope that it will but yeah we will have to see okay so i'm hoping that that some solutions will be found maybe people who are interested in this area who are on this call will watch out for this announcement i'm assuming that there will be a contact you know sort of there and maybe something that our friends in open air and ifold could could help and run another webinar like this and because it seems to be lots of interest in it thanks a lot sir so i think we answered all the questions sir and thanks a lot for staying with us for two hours sir and there's a lot of thank you notices sir in the chat sir thank you for organizing this arena and marina can i answer richard bruce um there richard bruce lamprey there is did you say you have national open access thesis platform open access journal platforms we have an open access portal so it'll identify the open access thesis but actually dark europe is really effective it also harvests the out of the repositories and shows that it's it's a digital access to research thesis europe based in ucl and so that's what we use for the the thesis portal and what it all appears in our national portal as well of course so i hope that helps but contact me my details are there if anybody has any interest in following up on any of these ideas or issues or wants to work together on any areas thank you very much here so we'll upload slides sir and recording to the webinar page and we'll also email everyone with this information when recording and slides are available thanks a lot sir have a good rest of the day and thanks again johann and nief and marina for being here thanks marina thanks marina thank you all for attending bye