 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I am joined today by my friend Angela cells who is a PhD and a professor in women's studies She's also a writer for Tom Tom magazine and a drummer for the Seattle based band below black star Angela. How are you? Hi, I'm good. Thank you so much. I love drum history So I really appreciate you having me on today. Awesome. Well, that is great And we've been talking for a little bit about about getting you on here So I am excited to finally have you on the show So today's topic which you are an expert on and I am excited to learn from you With all the listeners is all about female drummers and the history of female drummers going through the jazz era All the way back to ancient times. So Why don't we just start off by you going back as far as you can and giving us a brief history on Where female drumming began? Sure Um, first I do want to preface by saying that I am Researching this topic and was heavily influenced by two major books on the topic when the drummers were women by Lane Redmond and women drummers by Angela Smith and I have been trying to bridge the two from a an historical perspective So going from ancient Mesopotamia, you know through the jazz years and and putting my women's studies Lens on it. So that's kind of where I'll be coming from today but let's start with the oldest surviving literature circa 2100 BC Which was found on a clay tablet It's an ancient Mesopotamian text called the epic of Gilgamesh modern-day modern-day Iraq The oral tradition goes back to about 4,000 BC But there is a short story If you will in this epic poem of the goddess Inanna and her tree and I'll make it Short the abridged version is that there's this tree that Inanna wanted She was going to fashion a throne out of it and a serpent took up residence in it alongside a Demon woman named Lilith if any of this sounds familiar it should The hero Gilgamesh slayed the serpent And as well as the the demon and in gratitude Inanna fashioned him a drum and drumsticks for his heroism and that is one of the first real instances that we see at least in narrative of the drum being mentioned especially as a tool of appreciation By a woman and so I really I think that is a fun place You know thousands of years ago to start with the image of the drum. Yeah, that's fascinating and it's also got that kind of Not biblical, but that's sort of like Mysticism kind of feel to it where it's it's it's extremely powerful Yes, absolutely just rich in in metaphor and symbology and we can go back even further to Let's see about 5200 BC to chat to a hook which was modern-day Turkey And I probably butchered the pronunciation, but it was a proto civilization thriving art Seeing murals statues alters ritual sites burial mounds shrines temples, etc and we see Female figures, you know that were discovered through archaeological excavations with moon symbols carvings of moons carvings of drums and that's been thought to represent the powerful connection between the moon symbol and The pregnant woman that the mound it was represented representative of the heartbeat the moon and the woman's Pregnant belly kind of being this one symbol for Creation and what do you what do you hear? What is the first beat the heartbeat and That is really why we find so many thousands of female figures with this drum as Representing the connection between Birth and the heartbeat and so often drums were used in fertility rituals as you know the beating of the drum mimicking the heartbeat and I think that is not only Beautiful symbol and all of this is really a bridge. You know, there's there's a lot of nuance there, but just that symbol alone Being you know the the image of the moon and representing Fertility and the heartbeat. I think brings us back to the drums back to this really primitive and primal place where where we can kind of take pride in the drums as The first heartbeat. Yeah, and it's this the repetition of the drum of the beat and everything like that And then the the moon tying it all together. That's extremely cool Yeah, and I think Is it the new? Evan's heads too that are that look like the moon. Yeah, we've seen yeah where it's kind of got that that like that like Fiber skin kind of like Feel yeah, those are awesome. I never thought about that. Wow, but those are awesome and to me I look at that and I think you know, I'm immediately kind of transported and I feel like oh here here. We're coming full circle with this This relationship between the moon and what that was Representing for thousands of years to women and giving birth. Yeah, man, that's cool. That's um That is some serious drum history right there And we can go you know for for thousands of years seeing across cultures goddesses with Moon, you know discs on their heads or statues of female figures holding frame drums and I sent a few pictures. I'm not sure if Those can go up anyway, but I thought I would just mention a few absolutely I will if you want to run through them, then yeah, I will post them because I I have them and they're beautiful statues so One of the an ancient goddess known for fertility there's a bronze statue I sent of Sibyl from the second century and What I find amusing about this particular Statue is that is for a few Years, you know a few decades in scholarship. She was referred to as You know Sibyl goddess with Cake, you know, it wasn't weird assumed that it was a drum You know, I just kind of the associations of women and cooking. I think took over any Archaeological thing there Not a cake Right, not a cake and There's Hawthor an ancient well, 2500 BC cow and lion goddess from Egypt and I think I sent An image from 300 BC, but she's also holding a frame drum It seems like women it just very powerful like they all have this look on their face of like knowledge and power and And like sip is it Sibyl is that correct? Sibyl is just almost like a like a calmness To her yes, and that particular statue as well mimics a Statue found in that that ancient civilization or proto civilization Chattel, Hyuk, so you can find a figure from, you know 5000 7000 BC and you see how it morphed Through cultures and cultural, you know appropriation and and later civilization to Sibyl Thousands of years later is almost that exact same pose. Yeah, so you see how these ideas, you know traveled Between cultures and and across the years and that's something I I also found interesting now as time went on was this something that Became less common for these women drummers to be featured in statues. Did it kind of go away a little bit? it did so There's another image of the main ad With their frame drums and this would be a bit more of the the image of Demonizing women and and drumming as the years went on because it it became to be associated with Madness, you know, it's these main ads these raving women who were Associated with the god Dionysus came to be Considered as crazy women, you know, they would they would participate in rituals and they were seen as ecstatic and Violent and drums were definitely a part of ritual and as you know the centuries rolled on And civilizations began to form and social structures began to cement and Roles began to to cement in place and family roles and traditions What do we see happen? Well, we see the need for possessions and To retain possessions and how do you retain possessions but through an air? how do you make sure that in that there's a lawful air is to Make sure that you know women's reproduction is is kept in check So instead of promoting images of you know raving women participating in fertility ritual, which Went for a thousandth of years You know hand-in-hand with with sexual liberation at times that was really reigned in as civilizations began to be less nomadic and more stationary more able to stay in one place Due to grains and less of a need to chase, you know What whatever was in season so that's really the start of When things began to shift as far as roles and women participating in these kinds of rituals were drumming Fostered, you know a sexuality That was hand-in-hand with fertility. So at that point they said basically you need to stop Doing these rituals. You need to stop playing this drum You need to now fit the modern representation of what a woman should be or what they think it is Subliminally, it's kind of like controlling the future by changing art Absolutely, and and because I think we're such a visual culture, especially now we're influenced by you know media representation and I think we reflect what is you know reflected back to us and so I do want to say to you know this change. I'm talking about wasn't overnight. I mean we're we're spanning You know a few centuries here and and so the change was gradual with depiction and representation and especially participation in these fertility rituals, but but even The change from representing women and drums With main ads in you know 400 BC where there are these raving lunatics versus You know a few centuries before a thousand years before when it was the realm of the goddess I mean even that is a pretty distinct Change. Yeah, I mean and also just like hearing you say that a thousand years is a long time like who knows what'll be happening That's what I mean in the year 2019 it's like Right robots will be ruling the world and drums won't exist or something like that. So I hope not but now Moving forward a little bit in time Past the ancient kind of realm, right? What was happening like fast forward a little bit I'm not saying get into like the 1930s now, but like you know 1500s 16 1700s. Yeah, right. Yeah, so So over the years when monotheism was on the rise because that's the next distinct change is the rise of monotheism and these rituals which were heavily You know influenced by music and I'm not talking about military drumming, you know, but specifically drumming that was Went hand-in-hand with ritual well with the rise of monotheism all of that began to be seen or interpreted as pagan and demonized So that's when we now get this moral a the issue of morality imposed on drumming specifically in ritual so by the 1600s 1700s where Women's roles are much more defined with the church and state For instance, there's this Carl Ludwig Junker this composer he wrote a Decorum for ladies that was circulated in the 1700s and their roles as audience rather than participants in music and His line of thinking was that it was completely unsuitable For women to participate in playing music because of the bodily movement That they would make So specifically for drumming He writes it would be ridiculous when we see her playing in a fancy hairdo I mean which is it's amusing but this was actually, you know circulated this this is representative of the thinking of for hundreds of years, you know that that Aesthetically it was much more important to be demure rather than to you know play in a manner that would You know rile your fashion of clothing or your hairdo Wow, and So we can see that kind of imposition man. What a jerk. It's like you're to be seen and not heard basically, but that was really the role, you know that the music Played as far as church and state and and gender roles at the time for hundreds of years You know if not thousands, but specifically hundreds of years as we're working our way up to jazz era that That was held for Women who wanted to play music. So what do you think happened? You know, this was the social belief What might that do to women of the era who wanted to play music? They were complete aberrations was it like they're hiding and trying to be like secretive about it Or would they just basically not do it? I mean there It really kind of depends on, you know, which country we're talking about but But in the West at least there As we move up to kind of the 1930s from the mid 1700s through the 1800s there is vaudeville You know vaudeville and minstrel shows specifically in America minstrel shows where Women were not at first allowed to participate in these shows, but slowly they were they were allowed to Represent certain roles and then these vaudeville acts kind of paved the way For you know so-called girly shows like the women, you know It could be let in as this titillating act and There would be musicians, you know female musician performers in these acts Slowly integrated over time, but it is a very difficult road and very specific You know Manors of behaving while on stage was it like a like a novelty act at first basically like come come see these women play Wow, that's pretty tough, but honest honestly It's like a it sounds like it's like well Just get your foot in the door and let it become the norm, right? And then just they'll all you know You'll be laughing later when you're a successful musician kind of thing But that had to be horrible to not be able to do it love well and I mean it's so complicated to and I don't want to gloss over how complicated it was but if we're talking for instance just about Minstrel shows in America Ma Rainey, Bessie Smith, you know made their name by being black performers in minstrel shows And it's like you're saying foot in the door And it is not without complication But isn't that interesting as far as the kind of changing landscape as far as what would be allowed or What would sell tickets because you know Bessie Smith was extremely popular. Yeah, so it's it's all just Very complicated, especially when you get to you know the topics of women performers or performers of color It's there's so so much challenge That was faith. Yeah, and I'm sure they weren't being paid an equal amount And I'm sure someone was trying to screw them over and some guy was getting all of the money And I bet that goes for men of color and and all this stuff. So it is a it is a hard time But obviously people obviously women were persistent at that point in time and stuck with it and Yeah, absolutely and and facing, you know, these odds too that I just wanted to briefly point out Because I read the the composers quote something else over, you know in America that was a Not a reputation to rebel against but an actual code For instance from South Carolina and slave states Before the civil war Actually banned all African-Americans from playing drums At all So, I mean there's there's an exception with New Orleans, which is its whole own other thing And I don't want to touch on that on that history, but that was that was different but in slave states Drums were considered A threat because they were seen as as potentially calling together or giving signs of notice to one another Of design or purpose to break free So they weren't allowed to use or keep drums for the most part for years and that's just one code like that And so you have you know to hear the fallout obviously during reconstruction Of trying to break free from not just slavery but from codes where your instrument was was, you know, literally taken away from you So how do you then? persist in the face of that history and so that's something I also find really fascinating is You know really where the drum Originated and then and then what was taken away and what was really fought to reclaim In the years leading up to jazz Wow. Yeah, that's wild. It's you kind of forget about something like drums being A tribal like a call to action And just we see it's just a musical instrument, but I could see that where they'd think This certain beat is going to let people know tonight. We're Fleeing or whatever that's fascinating Right, right exactly So just one more piece that I I find really Important leading up to you know the the big band era Or you know the the 2030s and 40s when we have all all of the historical pieces in place For so many drummers to then come forward and kind of claim this piece of history Fighting against all the odds. Yeah, and so that point in time is is obviously a very male Driven time where you think of gene krupa and you think of these these early guys playing But what was happening? So let's fast forward up to the point of the big band the jazz the the The post I guess that would be right in the 30s late 20s 30s era sure, so one of the deep bands that Definitely captured my attention was the the international sweethearts of prism And they were the first integrated all women's bands in the united states And I believe they formed in officially in 1937 And then became the gained popularity in the 1940s But they started out of the pineywoods school the pineywoods country life school out of mississippi and What's pretty amazing About that is that a lot of the original members had been going to school There and then the the band was this offshoot from the students And we're talking about kids, you know 14 to 19 year old women And we get one of In my mind, you know one of the most talented drummers pauline bratty who There's Lady be good That that song that you can find on youtube and that really showcases that that kind of pounding driving force of hers um, and she you know, she was relatively Um still just a kid. I mean, I believe she was about 2021 During that recording and that's that's something that we we miss when we think about these all women bands is how young They were at the time When they were playing and and the circumstance that they came out of For instance, dr. Lawrence jones who founded this this school for poor um afric african-american children and other children This is where they came from and they they began to play and they became the international fleet hearts. They were the first african-american women to tour with the us. So that they traveled all around the world all around the nation were hugely successful in the early 1940s and um, especially pauline though as the drummer had impressed Other drummers like big-sid catlet poppa joe jones um took some some lessons, you know with them And we we don't really hear about that history But they were I believe the most successful All women's band during the early 40s. Wow. And just so people know it's international sweethearts of rhythm And the song is lady be good and I listen through it and it has I mean It doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman the drum solo is awesome very, uh Powerful, um, so I recommend everyone checks that out and it's cool to hear that people like poppa joe jones and everyone would I think drummers see drummers as what they are as opposed to um A man or a woman or black or white and Obviously not every drummer is like that, but um, it's just cool to hear that they would they would work together Oh, yeah, absolutely Um, I mean they were extremely popular and and yes, you know We can get into the nuance of kind of being a novelty, but it really goes beyond that Like you're saying it it cuts through gender race They were an amazing band, you know just at the heart of it bottom line The novelty factor of it too is like it's kind of like to catch on I see it more. It was like, hey, here's our not a gimmick, but here's something to draw you into listening to them versus like Look at these women. That's a novelty. I think it's they're just such good musicians. It draws people in Oh, absolutely And and especially when considering their their ages That's what blew me away Really? I mean really that's just phenomenal and the fact that they were up against um, you know jim crow south when they were touring um, because there were uh white women also in the band But when they were touring it was illegal in jim crow south to be in a mixed band So they would sleep on the bus, you know, there were a few arrests because police Notice that, you know, there there were some women who were playing in an integrated band and those women Those musicians were then arrested and some spent their their time in jail and That's what they were facing to do to do what they love to bring music to the people Um in those circumstances That's you know, that's how they Um, we're still so successful though. They they went up against all of that. They did what they had to do Wow. Well, that's uh, I feel like they're a huge inspiration to every Drummer who's facing some sort of uh obstacle today just to keep keep with it and and uh, It could always be worse. I mean you could be in that situation. You could be arrested. Oh, yeah playing the drums. So wow There's this um, Tampa. I believe it's Tampa Bay review um from the an early 40s performance and I just wanted to call attention to um the journalists who spotlighting the sensational drumming of Pauline and In reviews Pauline is always Mentioned her drumming is always called out um when there's a review of a performance from the sweethearts because she was Really, uh, well regarded. She was she was really thought of as a powerhouse drummer at the time and there were A lot of reasons why they were so successful in the years they were I mean Um, you know how many millions of men were called away during world war two Really opening up spots for women in all different aspects of life at the time You know when the image of rosy the riveter became popular but these female musicians were able to to take the stage and and um get the time That they deserved and and filling in these spots around the nation And one other musician one other drummer byola smith Who's in her? I know she's like a hundred six. I think or something like that. It's unbelievable right and and still active Just incredible But she she was a little older than pauline, but she was in the the coquette And she has her Amazing spot in the snake charmer if anyone's interested to hear her on drums You can actually see her play on video. Yeah, it's cool. And and she yeah, she was called, you know, the female gene krupa And and pauline though was was called the queen of the drums. And so we have these these amazing Women in the jazz era um as drummers who were being you know Who were friends with and being mentored by some of the greatest names in drum history That's amazing. I mean, it's just so cool that it's it's the community. It's the community of drummers. Unfortunately, I'm sure It seems like probably something where the men get back from war Does their position kind of slip from being like Performing out to okay now the men are back now. It's time for you to stop this. I I could see that being a problem well Yes, I know. I mean in a way Yes But also, you know, women getting married getting older career changes um There was not, you know, money was was tight. So there were a lot of reasons for the the decline um, but then especially for the the sweetheart's though They were popularized again during the women's movement in the 60s and 70s and so there was A a large resurgence For the band cool. So they were still going in the 60s and 70s. Well, it officially um, you know folded Earlier, but then there was just the the women who were around were able to come together, you know, invited to universities invited to jazz Conferences to talk, you know about their experiences. Um, there was a documentary film about the sweetheart's from the 80s To to look at their influence on on later movements Um, and then that's That's kind of when the scholarship picks up around their history. Um Yeah, even considering the name, you know, international sweethearts They weren't really international. They were just different ethnicities So Yeah, it's a cool name though It is it's oh, it's an awesome name. It's just the politics around that You know, dr. Jones knew What he was doing he knew different loopholes, you know for the politics at the time and how to market Um, you know the particular Makeup of the band. Yeah, really well it worked. I mean I It seems like behind behind most successful bands. There's kind of someone Pushing things around and making it work to make you successful and I'm sure this is this is no different. Sure. Sure Definitely And then, you know, too something to note just the changing landscape of jazz. I mean really in the in the 40s um When bebop, you know started to to kind of take over the the mainstream. Yeah Um, it's so it's so different from You know swing or big band That that's also why you see a decline because I'm not entirely convinced, you know that that we would have seen that decline Um across the board had just music not been changing Um, and then especially when you get, you know through the 50s and the 60s everything is just completely. Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah that all goes away I mean that's kind of across the board where the big even the male drummers everyone It's kind of like you're getting like you're getting phased out a little bit because you're not playing the style Absolutely That's kind of a good segue to get into that that bebop and then into the 50s and 60s with uh Female drummers, which is a little further than we kind of planned on on talking about but I'd love to just kind of Let's let's keep it going. Let's let's uh, what was going on then? so What you see in the well in the 60s and 70s especially um with the the energy of the the women's movement And music changing you have drummers like mo tucker coming on board for evolve at underground and Yeah, and you hear that minimum the minimalist style that mo rings to the band come into the forefront as an image as as Someone who is an inspiration to others is that you don't have to play Like gene krupa. Yeah, really you know Because I think that that kind of gets lost in the shuffle too, you know, we're talking about violist myth um and pauline who are Absolutely amazing but That the buddy rich kind of gene krupa um very technical players very fast Um virtue of so incredible, but in the 60s and 70s you do Have more drummers come on like mo tucker who is also extremely interesting In her own right with her time signatures um, but I think what we start to see is just more freedom of expression that every beat doesn't have to You know include you know Inverse paradiddles and yeah, which is more more modern now like you you don't need to just shred and just have these jazz Just explosions which I I would think is more kind of getting into that modern just being the backbeat Right exactly so that's um You know, especially to when we when we think about the 60s and we think about you know, the Beatles and your birds and um the kings and you have a lot of a resurgence in masculine swagger Um That's something to also I think pay attention to is as These female musicians with the big band era also Kind of faded and then the resurgence during the women's movement Even against that backdrop of you know, Mick Jagger, etc. No Hendricks You what we see during that era is a slow coming to terms of history And that's what I find really interesting about someone like Colleen Brandy And that she was actually being recognized finally in history during those years And so in the 70s to the 80s when we got you know Someone like Sheila E for instance We finally in the late 70s and 80s have a starting point of history being written down compilation of Of women drummers and history starts to start to really occur at that time Yeah in Sheila E is obviously such a famous Female drummer, but it kind of seems like and i'm probably incorrect in this but it's turning more into less of a A gimmick of a female drummer and more of just a you're a good drummer like Sheila E just kind of um I don't know she's you just can't deny that she's an amazing drummer I don't know it seems past that maybe it's just the the time too because it's like it's the 80s and the 90s and it's not you know 1935 in america, which is just a hard time Right, right. I mean there are a lot of things you know between You know big band in the 60s Um, but the onset of punk is is a huge Time for female drummers too. Someone like Paul Moliv. It was a the splits in the raincoats And then and again we get that kind of um, you know bi y aesthetic where those barriers are being broken down and You can take a more minimalistic approach and it's not about Only about aesthetics. It's about you know, how do you sound for the song? So I think That aesthetic still plays kind of a big part as far as Women in drawing I feel like it's absolutely going in the I like direction. Just how how do you sound for the song? Yeah, yeah. Now. Let me ask you a question. Um, do you think nowadays Is it more of a like with the world being let's say this is I'm just completely making this up But like 90 male drummers and all the bands out there Do you think it's a benefit to be a really good female drummer to help stand out in the world of musicians? Because there's again, there's so many male drummers. You kind of just blend in I think it really depends. I love the The female musicians who are kind of taking um, the world by storm right now, you know And I kind of need less court and an annual cap wet are amazing. Um, you know, I'm an odd either And I think but it's it's kind of twofold that Yes, it's a talent is completely The number one thing that you think about and you think of those specifically those two drummers However, I think that as a shattered guy is that when you are a female musician, you kind of are compared to The only other visible female musicians. Yeah, that's true out there because we're not innovated Um, what's the only name it's like if you're not, you know, one of those two, then you're not really taken seriously, so you almost have to overperform Instead of you know, just kind of keep keep beat when two in the four. Yeah, that's a really really really good answer I mean because honestly, it's uh You do need to stick out and and it you know, it kind of seems like the uh People are thinking you're not going to be good until they hear you and then you blow them away And you can win them over but it's it's really a shame that you're you're starting off with uh having to prove yourself Right, and I do love the direction. It's going. I think that that's kind of changing But I think also just right now in in our present drum history. I think it's a really interesting moment where there seems to be an emphasis on Um chops, you know like odd time signatures and sticking them to these You know thing that you can you can post which are really interesting. I'm always you know, I do them and I'm um You know going through my carry chafee books as well But I I think that we've gotten a little bit away from that kind of You know the amazing ability of of ringo who's just steady especially on the ride You know with with every beatles tune and just being able as As a drummer to go back. You know to that uh, the years old Old thing of just the heartbeat. It's just we are also beat keepers and So it's it's really interesting. I I Um, and I did see you know where we go with I'm veering into chop man versus He's been a steady beat. Yeah, it is heavy heavy heavy chop stuff right now and it's uh It's kind of crazy because drummers keep getting better and better and better because they've seen With youtube everyone keeps getting better. So we'll see what happens. I think right now Everything what's old becomes new again. So I think at some point people are going to start playing the money to four beat again And uh, everyone can you know, it'll turn around It's interesting. You know, I was listening to the talk and um Just how how he was playing something really kind of over the top But nobody's heads were were bobbing. There was no kind of groove here And and so he he went in again and recorded some of the same song and Um, just just did it a little bit, you know mild not milder But just there was uh something for you know to bob to it's like yeah, that That's the interesting thing that's where I really love to see where we're coming right now Are we moving away from being able to rely on the bait, you know for a current audience? Or are we trying to becoming you know We're in Taylor drum community where we're all out to to really You know prove ourselves in that one. Yeah, like I can confuse you more by playing this extremely choppy beat But you know, there's guys out there and girls online who um, I think are doing that I do see a change in that where it's more of like listen to this fat snare and just steady beat Which is awesome. So and that's a good segue to talk about you because you are a rock and female drummer Speaking of this topic. So What's up with your band? Why don't you talk a little bit about what you're doing and and um, and your work with Tom Tom magazine and and all that good stuff so I've been subscribing to Tom Tom magazine for years and I Have been lucky enough to write for them He passed few issues And it's the only magazine in the world dedicated to you know, female and non-binary percussionists And the recent article I wrote it might be of interest is all about music and it's about um women's influence on the rock and heavy metal And kind of be the unsung heroes of that genre And I'm in Seattle right now. I'm a writer and a teacher And my band below black star is this kind of um, alt Floyd influenced rock band and we're learning some new tunes the next album. So That is what what I'm working on at the moment. That's awesome. You had me at Floyd influence. I'm a big Floyd guy, so that's cool. Well, Angela. Do you have any other any other bits or cool stories about, uh, you know The the world of of drumming in for women that you want to share with the world Sure. I mean just to just to iterate those the book You know when drummers were women or women drummers are to that I have become, you know, my personal vitals, but I'm trying to to again kind of bridge from historical perspective Along with my own personal research into the drum world the last two centuries I just wanted to make it really clear that when it's just been a sweet thing episode So there's a lot of nuance that I didn't you know touch on and I just wanted to make that clear You know that that's on purpose for us right now is to kind of not go into the The nitty-gritty bibliography of all of those notes, but just thank you so much for this Talk about about drumming. I'm really loving what you're doing. Well, thank you very much and uh, and you You put it well by saying it's just we're touching on the surface of it Um, I think with every episode of drum history. It's like hey Let's learn about this together and then go off and learn even more because there's just an endless world of of each topic, um, so Right. Well, you are an awesome person. I appreciate everything you're doing. Um, you're a great writer and I look forward to just Seeing more stuff that you put out. Thank you so much likewise. And I just I love your podcast Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Well, angela. This has been great. Um, I'll be in touch with you through social media and everything and uh And look forward to talking to you more in the future Great. Thank you so much If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history And please share rate and leave a review and let me know topics that you would like to learn about the future Until next time keep on learning This is a Gwyn sound podcast