 No control over the weather in this room but welcome. We're so happy to see you. Happy after Thanksgiving and before all the other holidays that are coming up. I know it's a crazy time of year so we're really happy to have you here. Let me just remind you that we welcome you to have your electronics on but please put them on vibrate. Feel free to tweet, take pictures, Facebook, anything you want during the event. We have an event next Monday that is listed on the back of your program so if you're interested in that there are still some seats available. Feel free to email me in the office if you'd like to come. It's not on social media, it doesn't exist. I'd like to remind you that if you do tweet, please use at dramatiskill and hashtag new play so we can keep track of everything that's going on. And we also welcome questions from our online audience. Again that's at dramatiskill, hashtag new play. We'll be having the conversation for about an hour and then when we're at an appropriate rate we'll open it up to questions. If you ask questions please make sure you ask them loud enough so our online audience can hear it as well. Without further ado it's my pleasure to introduce Team Toy Johnson to be leading our conversation. Thanks, thank you. Thanks for being here and I want to say thank you to our online audience too. It's kind of awesome that we're able to be across the country and in this room at the same time. I wanted to open by telling you why I have the idea for this panel. I have been a lifelong actor. I started writing a good 20 years into my still ongoing acting career and I found that I was hitting these walls when I was applying for grants and fellowships at the beginning because I was told well you can't be considered an emerging writer because of your long standing career in the industry as an actor which was very confusing to me. And I met a lot of other people who were actually experiencing similar things and I started becoming curious about how we were all navigating this and how we might be able to find a new paradigm for gathering our systems of support. So that's sort of what started the idea for broadening the conversation. The Guild has certainly been a big system of support for me and that's why it made sense to be here. I'm really grateful that Terry and Gary Garrison and all the people who have allowed this conversation to come on and they keep encouraging me to have these kinds of things. And I also want to say from the top that none of this discussion is meant to be disparaging against people who found their voice early in life. So let's just get that out of the way. Okay, thanks. And so I have this incredible group of friends and colleagues here that have so much experience. You have their bios. I would never be able to remember everything they did so I'm not going to try to tell you their bios. I'm going to let each one of them introduce themselves and tell you a little bit about and me about how they started writing and how did we get to be here? And also, well, we'll start with this. Emily Morse is the artist director of New Dramanus. I'm going to just say this. Hunter Bell of course, writer, actor, Tony, nominee. Human being. Human being. Timothy Huang, awesome writer, award-winning person. Everybody is human being. Everyone's a human being. That's so good. Okay, so Emily, do you want to start just tell us a little bit about your life in the theater and how you got to be where you are at New Dramas? Sure. It's a pretty circuitous journey, but I started as a performer as I think many people do. While I was in college, most of the performance opportunities I had and then continued to seek were actually in the dance department. And I was working with very experimental creative choreographers who really engaged their performers in the building of work. And so I often attribute that to my kind of first dramaturgical experience was how to work with a concept and find a way to articulate a vision of an artist that I was working with. Simultaneously, while I did not really pursue performance opportunities in the theater department, I did start directing in the theater department and sort of started to find a kind of richer voice in that particular practice. And I was fortunate at the time that I was at Temple University, there was a very new fledgling playwriting course. And so I got involved with the playwrights directing their work, working dynamically as they developed their work and finding workshop and kind of workshop production opportunities with them. And so I really felt that that combination and that kind of confluence of experience between the dance department and working dynamically with playwrights is what led me to them pursue more opportunities in new play development. I worked at the Philadelphia Theater Company. I went from there to Actors Theater of Louisville. I mean, I didn't go to graduate school because I couldn't figure out which thing I wanted to study. And so I thought it was a very expensive proposition to not know what I wanted to master. And so I just continued to try to find practical opportunities to keep learning how to be a playwright advocate as a dramaturge, working in new play development, working in new play production. And so that led me to a variety of things. Fast forward to the year 2000, I became a resident director at New Dramatists. And it was a place that I'd actually encountered as an intern at Actors Theater, and I thought, that's where I want to go. I love the mess of the creative process. And so I pursued that, eventually became a resident director at New Dramatists, then became a literary coordinator. And from there, I had about 10 titles, this one being the most simple, actually, artistic director, which I became in July of this year after Todd London left. Thank you. We'll do the introductions first, and then I'll have some questions for all of you. Yeah. Who are you? I'm Hunter. I was a performer first. I went to college at Webster University, and I have a BFA in musical theater. And I came to the city as an actor, an audition, worked, fortunately, regionally, a lot. And I found that I liked rehearsal so much. I liked table work. I liked research. I liked pre-production. I liked thinking about all that stuff. And I kind of cut my teeth, like in high school and in college and after school, doing great production things, but Shakespeare and summer stock Oklahoma and no known Annette, like established shows. And every now and then I would start and have the luxury to maybe be part of a reading or a lab of a new work here in the city. And I would just say yes to that and go in a room like this with a bunch of folding chairs and music stands. And I kind of a bulb went off that I loved that. Like I liked new work. And I'm like, oh, you mean there are new plays? There are new musicals? And you can be a part of that process? So I like being a part of that process as an actor. And I'd always written and kind of was a closet writer and never kind of would occasionally in college if an opportunity came to present in a directing class or something of your own work. I jumped at that chance when I had it, but kind of got caught up in the middle of like, oh, I guess you just auditioned. And I just wanted to create more opportunities for myself. And I wanted to be a part of the collective that determined what the conversation was. I just don't want to be reactive too. I didn't have a problem with people telling me what to do or where to stand. I enjoyed it very much. But I wanted that process to continue and I wanted to be a part of that collaboration like in the making of something. And that's kind of where the transition happened. I wanted to make my own work. I wanted, it kind of came out of a response to I'd see these new works and I write musicals primarily. And I love musical theater. And instead of kind of coveching about what I wasn't seeing, I was like, what if I took that energy and made the work I want to see? Participate in it instead of just bitching about what's not there. Then go make your own party. And so I did. Yeah. Yeah. Before we go to Tim, I want to know what part did you play in none other than that? I was an excellent ensemble member and I understudied. I tapped. I played the ukulele too. Now you know. Special skills. And then I think I understudied like three people, you know, summer style. So, you know, if you were able bodied, then, and I love that show piece. I love that show piece. Come on. I have that album. Forget about it. I know. Well, I think we're similar. That'll be a separate panel that we will hold about the value of no, no, no, no. That's right. Come on. I confess, I don't know what seesaw is. I know. And while we're going to compose a really long email to you about the history of seesaw. Please do. It's a good show. While we're being honest, I would say that I got to be here when I got here by a similar route to Hunter, except without half the success. I'm just a very slow learner. And I think with the benefit of hindsight, I would say that I've always been a writer and always know it. So, I did college. I came to New York to do NYU with Bill Augustine in the mid to late 90s. Got my bachelor's in musical theater and did a lot of new works in the late 90s because I mean, you could probably speak to this with even more authority. But back then, I feel like the landscape was a little different if you wanted to be, if you looked like we do and wanted to have a life, a professional life in theater. So, my options were a little bit limited. And to be perfectly honest, my ability was limited as a performer. And so, I wasn't always like getting those exceptions. People saying, oh, well, this is non-traditional, but let's just overlook it because you got to be able to bring that. You got to be able to earn that, and that wasn't me. And so, consequently, I found myself being in a lot of things that were new and underwritten and underdeveloped. And I kept thinking, well, I can do that. I could probably do better than that. And instead of bitching about it, I was like, oh, well, maybe I should. And so, I went back to school in the early aughts at NYU again for musical theater writing. And for the last, what, 15 years, I have been slowly figuring out what's that this American life quote, the Ira Glass quote, about making the gap smaller between what you want to do and the ability, your ability to do it, just slowly kind of closing that gap. And ever still, you know, is how I'm here. Yeah. Emily, you and I were talking earlier about how a new drama has opened its doors to hundreds of writers over the years. And writers of all different ages and experience. And so I'm curious about how new drama has been able to really find what the needs are of all of those writers, whether they're off the bus or around for a while. And because I think that also, that speaks to the idea of who's new, what does new mean? What does emerging mean? Well, what you say is true. We're within our, both our current company, which is 50 playwrights, and then we have hundreds of alumni. I mean, I think that something I was thinking about with your question is that, you know, we simply offer playwrights time and space to develop their work and we respond to the needs both individually and collectively. So it always starts with listening to the playwright and what they need and helping them to articulate some of those needs and then providing the space and time for them to do that. But something I've been thinking a lot about recently is that there's absolutely the need for time and space to develop a play or to develop a project. But I also think that time and space can be a place where writers cannot know. And so that's another, that they can use that time and space to follow impulses that they have to explore maybe a new way of working. And so therein is the definition of new. And we don't really use the terms emerging, established. I mean, mid-career is kind of a very broad, you know, what does that mean? But it sort of feels that, you know, when you're meeting a writer at any place in there, they're a creative artist. And so creative artists are, you know, there's impulses that they need to follow until our mission and mandate is to support that exploration, you know, without any kind of expectation of outcome or because they'll follow their own impulses. They'll find their own way through things. And I think that goes across the boards. If you're 25, if you're 45, if you're 65. And the ability to keep discovering and building your voice and building a company of collaborators, that takes time. And so it's always, we're always meeting them at that place of what is it that you need, how can we support that, who do you need in the room, how do we cast the audience, when does your work need to meet an audience because it's what you need at this moment in development of the project to know more to continue developing it? So, I mean, I think it's simply, maybe this is just to listen to the writers and what they need and then figure out what kind of process can support that. And so that's across the board. And I think New Dramas is a place that does not say in the application, you have to have just come out of school or something like that. No, there are no guidelines that. I mean, the guidelines are simply what you submit for consideration, the two plays, a statement of purpose and a bio or resume. And that's simply what is the criteria to start with. And then I don't know if you know this, but how we put together a seven-person committee that changes completely every year. And so that committee is responsible for defining what is New Dramas for them? What are their values as a committee? The staff facilitates the process, but we don't participate in any decision-making. And so there is no New Dramas aesthetic or there is no New Dramas kind of prevailing anything. It's really just about what that committee can determine by consensus. And so there's no input from us about even, you know, slots. It's not about slots. It's about the group. It's about the passion of the committee for the group that they're bringing in. So the moral of the story is keep trying. Absolutely. Keep applying. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I say to people, and I know it's very challenging, but you never know when you're going to meet your committee. And the committee, and I've seen it. I've facilitated the process with Todd, my predecessor, and for 12 years. And it's remarkable to sit in a room and see how different people can read plays or how differently they respond based on, you know, there is a subjective process. The subjectivity is mitigated by the fact that it's consensus-based decision. And that's part of what they are wrestling with, is how to make those determinations. Many, many, many good, great, talented writers don't make it. I mean, in a particular year, we get 500 applications. We take between five and eight. Those are pretty stark. It's a pretty stark ratio. So we always say there's no reason not to apply. You know, as long as you're whatever your threshold is for the waiting and the... Well, the waiting is largely it. Thank you. Do other of you guys have stories about, you know, getting to that odd crossroads of not being... When you started out, not really being emerging in the traditional sense, but needing to find places to be and spread your wings a little bit? Yeah, very much so. Well, one thing I want to respond to, but maybe part answer, you have to apply. Like you got to buy a lot of tickets if you want to win the lottery. And so you can't... I find it odd times it's an easier excuse to stand it outside. And those applications can seem like a bear. You know, sometimes I'm like, oh, it's like doing my taxes, you know. And I'm like, but if you want in the game, go for it, you know. And I just... I have to check myself and my ego, like sometimes with that. And I have still applied everything and have a huge bin of rejection letters. And I'm sure I'll get another slew of them. And I'm doing okay, you know. And I still get rejected from lots of things for any number of reasons, from not being emerging to maybe now to commercial to it not being good enough or acceptable to a panel. You know, it's all in the eye of the beholder. But I apply to everything, every year, awards, grants, everything. And maybe my number will come up or maybe it won't. But that is the first thing to do, I think, is I honestly have to check maybe you can be like, well, girl, this is five pages too far. And I'm like, get over yourself, dude. And just get in the game, you know. And so that was a lesson for me to actually calm myself down and be like, it's part... It's part of it. You know, it's part of it. And I have to respect those things. And I have gotten countless rejections and we'll get countless more. And I kind of wear it as like a badge of honor. And I've been turned down from things. And I, you know, I get the letter and I'm like, oh, this is a little thin. This probably won't go like, dear sir. Thank you for... There have been so many wonderful applications. I was like, okay, great. And I... And it is weird. And a lot of those too, I even, when it says like, seeking emergency only, I still go for it. Really? Why not? I was like, it's in the bin because maybe it'll slip through somehow. But I still do, even though... I mean, if it's a specific age range or something, I'll honor that. But some of these grants and things, I'll... I'm like, God, I guess I'm still emerging in my own mind. And I respect if they don't believe that or not, but I go for it. I go for it. And I still hit that wall. That weird wall too of... I've been very grateful I have a lot of commercial success. And I'm doing okay. And... But I'm not... I've got a mansion, you know. And there were months that are like this. And there are projects that need help too. So I'm always applying for grants and always trying to just put my name out there to see what can come back. Because you know what? A $500 grant is $500. A $250 grant... will go by you some paper and some ink. And it is something... And also it's something for the resume too, you know. And it's out there. And I do feel like it is our responsibility or I'll look for myself first to participate in that. No matter what level you're at, the phone doesn't necessarily magically ring. And it's our responsibility to participate in it. Yeah, I sort of refer to myself sometimes as Grant Girl because I decided at one point I think to just embrace my experience because it's a hard one. And I actually... I think since 2007 is the first grant I applied for. And in seven years I've received something like 15 competitive grants to support my writing work. So that's kind of great. But I think part of it is just saying I believe in this project. I believe in what I have to say. And instead of just saying, okay, well, nobody's saying that I'm in this category, I'm going to make my own way. Yeah. How about you, Tim? Well, actually, again, I'm sorry to be repetitive, but I'm going to echo a lot of Hunter's sentiments because that's what it boiled down to for me too is every time you apply for something, every time I would apply for something, it would be about, well, does my ego allow for me, does my own humility allow for me to consider that I'm in a category? Or is my unwillingness to apply really just about my own sense of value? But to give a direct example to answer your question is, and you know this, five days ago, five, six days ago, I celebrated my 40th birthday. I was a drama skill fellow two years ago. Two years ago. And I was sitting in this very room with some of the next generation's most talented minds, and it was a very surreal experience for me because on the one hand it's like, wow, I am so much older than these people, and then on the other hand it's like, wow, I finally get to be at the table. And it was a real touchstone for me just because all this time it's like, well, maybe what's prevented you from getting there in the past has always just been your feeling that you should have been there before. Which is kind of really sick, twisted. As creative artists, we all have that impulse to be like, well, I have something of value and something important to say, and therefore it lends me credibility, but then suddenly when we're juxtaposed with all these other people that seem to be doing things that other people like. It was just very like, oh, okay, so maybe this is just where I belong and I'm very happy to do that. But it's always just been about whenever I am career-minded, I find that I hit more walls, but whenever I am more mindful of my art and improving my art, then whatever those walls are, they're actually just lessons in disguise. I know. Somebody stitched that on a sampler. That's awesome. I think that that's the part of the frustration exactly that we think that a career or how you build a career follows the chronology of age or the chronology of time and I think that that's exactly where these terms can be really frustrating because as you've said that creative artists path is not linear. It's often not, more often than not and as you've talked about that you at some point have a strong impulse to write and follow that because at some point your voice is emerging for that particular that that's what is expressing your voice at that time. So anyway, that's all. Both of you, the way you sort of talk even about your career is that it doesn't, you don't hit emerging and then stay. I mean, people's... Yeah, it's this. It is this. I do want the pillar of that. You have some choices. I can be mad that a 25 year old writing team got something that I didn't or I can go make my art and just continue to create. I know it sounds a little zen and a little easier and a little easy or maybe easier said than done. We're entitled to have emotions and jealousy on all that but at what point do you just stay stuck in that and at what point do you continue to make what you want to make and keep putting it out in the world and I always think my path is interesting too because even when I got rejected I just went and got in a room with my friends and put up folding chairs and I was not handed a magic key either and sometimes I use the not getting to the things to fuel and figure out how to make my own party and I'm not going to get into this I didn't get into this but I can rent this space and I worked my day job and wrote a play at night and then went and performed that play down at Manhattan Theatre Source which is sadly no more in a room this size with just as many chairs to 10 people and I kid you not when I felt like a rock star so I was learning lessons and self producing and putting my art out there and I thought it had value and from that became a little more confident a little more so that was all part of that I didn't let the not getting into things or being jealous that people they came to it in their own time and we come to it our own time so I think we have a choice with it yeah we've been talking about the I hope you've read this month's issue of the dramatist because it's one of my favorite issues ever I've brought it it's like gold to me there's this article right in the beginning by Douglas Post it's called Emerging Established and Dead and he said it refers to the three stages of a playwright and and he talks about the idea of getting rid of those labels just saying we're playwrights let's just say that but I wonder if you guys have any ideas this is such a broad question but how we could expand the definition of all of those things well maybe not dead but expanding the definitions so that we might I don't know about you but I love this kind of dialogue because it makes me feel like oh good I'm not alone you're thinking similar things but do you have any thoughts on that? well one thing I'll jump out and say is what's interesting even when I read this too and I remember when I first got in the guild I would be jealous of the people there and I'm like they got it all figured out and so it's helpful to I agree with you like I don't say like Ziggy Karchi Misery loves companies but it's I think a lot of the show business part not necessarily into this room and for this but what is sold is Cinderella stories or like little quick blurbs of like even I found myself of like overnight success I'm like I worked a day job for 15 years and I wrote that play barring ink and paper from my boss don't tell but you know a lot of times in like a sound bite it'll be like a meteoric rise or whatever so it spins and it can mess with the creative it puts a rift I think and makes it kind of us and them when that's just BS and we're all just trying to get through the day and what's my point demystify that and I agree with you that sometimes it's helpful just have the conversation like oh good I'm not the only one who wants to bang my head against the wall or feels like this will never happen you know that was just tangent sorry on the question and I think I forgot the initial questions just to tell you about trying to maybe expand the definition or I don't know that's such a that's what it was like that the first thing is demystifying and having this conversations why I appreciated this and seeing really respected writers who are commercially successful or really critically successful or want to pull it sir or something or want a genius grant and they're struggling with it too man and they are going through the muck too and they had a good year and want to pull it sir and then they're back back back facing the blank page too and I take heart in that like that makes me feel a little less alone somehow and I guess it ties in emerging of just like oh good Mr. for Shin's emerging too he's trying to write a new play and so he's emerging or he didn't get produced of this thing so he's having the same moment like we all had so it just redefines it a little bit here's a name drop I had a great conversation with John Kander at one time and I respected him so much and after I got through my star struckness I appreciate like that dude's like Chicago's on Broadway and he's down like working on the landing at the venue he's still trying his art and trying to make stuff and still nobody's like we got to produce the landing on Broadway immediately like he's like anybody would do the landing and thank God for like the vineyard and not for profit who will take an emerging play from John Kander you know so that's that thing like he is as established in history and commercial success too that plays emerging too so I take comfort in that and kind of just like reprogram my head I'm like dude's emerging too you know I don't know maybe a little Jedi mind trick I play on myself but I think it's true yeah we can have a whole conversation about how you should just if you're feeling vulnerable I'll stay away from Facebook I my favorite thing is when I get 20 year olds I've been dreaming about this my entire life anyway I digress to yes let's go back to my idea about the issue about what your idea of success and failure is pertaining to what we've been talking about I have so many thoughts about this and most of them are not very popular so I'm going to try it honestly I'm just going to keep it real the Twitter spear is just going to be crazy I will try to to temper it as much as possible but like I think for me a successful day is when I don't roll my eyes when somebody asks me oh you're a writer are you on Broadway because nobody gains anything by me doing that nobody understands anymore that there's a commercial theater there's an artistic theater there's political theater nobody learns that there's a dominely theater for the rest of the country nobody learns anything so I think for me a successful day is when I'm able to check that attitude and be like no I'm not I really want to get there and here's a couple of things that some people talk about that I have done that you wouldn't know and that's okay and maybe after this conversation you'll google me you'll go and you'll find my SoundCloud or you'll find my 10 year old cast available on iTunes and Amazon.com like and maybe you'll download it so that's like I think my personal goal is to some day be at a place where it's never I never cower in shame when somebody says have you written anything on Broadway and I have to say no because the truth is you have done and what you are doing exactly so that's one way to look at it which maybe I should probably stop there Hunter well I'll speak on panels too and people say like do you feel successful and I'm like well how much time you got and I always ask what do you mean because there's financially successful there's creatively successful there's romantically successful there's all these different kind of parts of our lives as human beings and artists and I'm like ask me every hour to the hour and get a different and you know sometimes I'll get a few pages out and I'm like I got this I'm amazing and then an hour later I'm like what am I doing I got nothing and I'm terrible at this I'm like I'm amazing I'm terrible you know like so I was like that's probably a common theme but I wonder also do you find that being more mature than you were 20 years ago I'll just say it that way do you find that it's easier for you to recognize that absolutely so that you can say oh I'm being like this I was amazing five minutes ago yeah and also just to speak to what to have a little bit better understanding of those differences like you mentioned of a commercial of nonprofit of of what all that kind of means and what it means for us as artists and as writers and just a little more awareness a little bit more awareness of that is helpful I think is helpful for me at least yeah and and the success and well first of all I mean not to be too zen or but I'm like I come from a place of gratitude so I'm like if we're in this room having this and we have clothes and we're way ahead of the game you know it's like not to poo poo any of that but it's like we're doing alright in here you know so I check that box like we're well fed we're not the rain check and I do kind of remind myself of those things too of like with a little bit of age of like some gratitude I got some health I have an ability to write to and that has come like with age and just kind of challenging what my goals are a little bit too that's an interesting yeah I want to come back to that but Emily I want to ask you the same question about what do you consider to be success for you for me personally yeah wow that's a really hard question to to answer I don't wow I think that something I've been thinking about recently is that in a way where I am now and it has a lot to do with arriving at New Dramatis which to me is a place where this varied background that I have is actually all relevant and pertinent and it continues to be built upon and expanded is that you know I sort of had this moment where I thought this I'm actually living my dream I mean it's not maybe exactly what the 12 year old imagine because that involved Broadway tap dancing and all the things that I did too but this sort of notion of living within an artistic community that is so vibrant and diverse and eclectic and constantly you know growing and changing and experimenting and collaborating to me those that richness and living an artistic life and being healthy and you know raising a child also in that community where he has access to such incredibly creative thoughtful passionate people to me is success you know and to be able to live an artistic life I think and within an artistic community I think that I sort of had that kind of stunning moment where I thought wow this is kind of living my dream but it has everything to do with the community that I work in and I feel that one of the things I wanted to sort of say about also the thing about emerging is that to be emerged has so much to do with the productions you've had or level of productions and I think that's also problematic because what is being produced is not necessarily representative of what is being written there's a whole again large community of varied and diverse creators that are not necessarily seeing their work on stage and so I think that that's also problematic because it also sets up that success is related to production and then level of production and so I think that that's also just something I wanted to say about that I think to be able to create on your own terms and in the company of people that you choose to work with is successful it feels it to be able to make work on your own terms and finding the ways to keep that integrity as an artist and then hope I think that there's something energetically that happens as a result of that confluence that moves things forward whether it's to discover things about your own voice that I hope is part of how people define success because I think that the production using production is so elusive you can have a production you can have two or three productions and then you don't and so then you're on this constant fluctuating roller coaster of I'm successful and not you know you have to it has to I mean that's the first it has to come from an internal place because if the business fluctuates so much and it changes so much and it's so much in the hands of other people I always say that show business is impossible at best and so yeah I think that we all have we all have to reinvent ourselves every six or seven minutes or redefining goals not to say to settle for something that you don't want but figuring out I think that's a great way to put it having it on your own terms so embracing your life in the theater and I think very often I'm sure if I ask you the same question about what you thought you might want to be happening now as opposed to what has happened and how new dreams have come true I'm sure the more you live your life do either of you have a yeah well I'm actually thinking about something that Emily was talking about earlier just what you mentioned about having to reinvent ourselves I think I think it's helpful for me to remind myself that the business that we're in or the art form that we're in is by definition ethereal and as a result what happens is audiences are constantly changing people who go to plays the median age changes from generation to generation and so it's easy in the digital age where everything is preserved to think that someone who has accomplished X, Y and Z shouldn't be emerging or should be established because of their body of work whereas like it's not necessarily fair because maybe that was a different audience I was a different do you know that's an interesting point of view like to speak sort of indirectly to your question recognizing that that changes allows me to I'm a very kind of closed circuit sort of person like I like things in boxes and you know working on that but like it allows me to say oh like dreams can change and goals can shift and and it also just tangentially allows me to appreciate other people's work in a way that I never was able to before because I'm something not like comparing all the time you know maybe should be quiet no that's a good trick I don't know you know I mean let's be honest that's a that's a very mature view I think that's great thank you I'm very proud of that I am but I think that's a very difficult thing for anybody in the arts not to compare to anything so yeah bless you Hunter well I I'm always shocked of how how I got on this panel of how I got to be where it is and it does go back to I do think I mean some of it is luck some of this timing those are those elements but I do believe in the core of it I wanted to say something and kind of like there is like the closer I kind of tried to stay to a personal truth or an aesthetic or not veer from who once I kind of figured out and liked who I was and liked what I wanted to say and leaned into it then things started happening and so I am a big fan of that a little bit it doesn't always look like what you think it's going to look like and it always manifests itself in a lot of surprising ways and and I have struggled and tempted on every kind of job and had a really strange route to becoming a writer but so does everybody you know what I'm saying nobody that's what I kind of figure out too nobody I would make up on my head of like I bet this person had this experience and then you kind of talk to them and you're like oh they had a crazy route too and it was just that's comparing I made up in my mind what other people's experience was and everybody is unique but the when I kind of would try and at least stick to what I my own idiosyncratic voice and not imitate or emulate but just kind of stay true to that every now and then some of these great adventures I've had would reveal themselves and when I veered from that they didn't always now that's a little bit of over generalization but I kind of believe that I believe that in a bit from an artistic place yeah you can only write what you can you can write and I can only write that later in life to emerge you know I didn't kind of have that body of experience nor the megaphone or the wherewithal to say what I wanted to say or the guts or the balls or the creativity to say when I was 20 necessarily it had to happen much later in life just about that did you anyone see that there was the American Masters series it's on public television and it was the one about Eugene O'Neill I don't know if anybody it's kind of remarkable because it speaks to exactly what you were just saying and that you know he wrote the Tyrone family plays you know when he was 50 or over 50 you know and so that idea that you know that he had been writing plays obviously prior to that but really sat down and wrestled with the those demons when he was older and had the maturity or wherewithal or need or and skill to kind of put it all together and make those plays I found it absolutely inspiring on so many levels and fascinating so I recommend it because I think that something too is that you keep making your work through all of your years and then there's also something that is the kind of accumulation of knowledge about your voice trust, confidence, maturity even if you're still struggling with the how and the what you know that there you do have that to sit with you when you're looking at that blank screen or blank paper however that allows those open those channels to open because I don't know I think about that a lot you know there's so much ageism everywhere so it is one of the one of the pieces of the puzzle of navigating your way through through all of this so I appreciate that and also the trust I think that you gain internally of saying I think this is going to work you just have to trust me while I struggle through and that's harder to do when I think when you're younger I don't know exactly you're figuring it out and so I see that too with especially you know writers so creators or theater makers that have had to kind of create their own opportunities that at some point it can be very empowering because they know how to make their work even when it's murky and so there's something to be gained through that your own experimentation and failures and learning from that yeah you know we talked about creating your own opportunities a little bit Tim what do you what do you want to add to that conversation I don't know that I I don't know that I'm the most qualified to add anything honestly I'm in all of the way you do it and always grateful to be included when you do it but I think that by and large I have been successful at it when it hasn't been about me again like when it's been about you said this earlier oh this project really needs like I really believe in this this is something I really want I find that people respond to that more and then lend support more easily than when it's like oh I'm unemployed and bored right now let's do something so that I can you know not be angry on Facebook or whatever it is but I mean I guess I can say that I crowdfunded a reading which I thought we are I'm gonna say this about crowdfunding and then maybe it won't be relevant and maybe we can move on but I feel like it was probably one of the hardest things I've ever had to do and I think that there's this notion that you post a project online and then the internet gives you magic money and you don't have to do anything and maybe that's actually maybe maybe that works that way for some people didn't for me I did a forecast album it was a full time job it was a full time job and I was happy to do it but it's yeah no please no it was just that it was it was constantly trying to think creative ways to stay engaged to raise that money I'm glad I did it but it was a full time job yeah yeah and it's it's almost as hard as the act of creating the art itself it's it's true because you don't want to bombard people with links to your project but at the same time you don't want them to forget about it either so you have to really think about what it is that they want what incentivizes them which is hello isn't that what we're trying to do with our own work too like oh learning experience this is good this is good I found that like the minute it was it was about the project the minute it really does become about the work things start to make a lot more sense and to that I would say that like even though it was the hardest thing I've ever had to do I would do it again in a heartbeat if it was something that I really cared about I think I had this revelation the other day and I realized it I often say I am my own intern from Doug Wright but I also I had this light bulb but I thought I am my own non-profit organization I must stay true to my mission if I can stay true to my personal and artistic mission then like you said things get easier and more difficult but in a good way yeah I think that's perfectly said that some things are easier or I'm fortunate to have representation and have had opportunities and I work just as hard and I'm just as roller-coastery but maybe even harder at times on things I'm constantly feel like I'm still self-producing even when I'm produced because I'm just trying to figure out opportunities and ways to get something out there and or be a part of something or a project so yeah I I like what you said about it gets easier and harder certainly with some success some more doors open a little bit but sometimes not really not really so I keep knocking and banging yeah well if I just piggyback on that I should probably disclose that after I successfully funded this project the piece that I was working on was then like very very large doors open that I had absolutely no control of because people were like oh this guy's not messing around like he's really this bears my consideration like people with real power and influence were saying oh this bears consideration but it was only because I literally said draw any hoop I'll jump through it you know yeah yeah which is come on go bigger go home so yeah but it did it did open up a lot of things and made things a little easier so yeah I find that all the time too and self-producing of I was example we I didn't know what was going to happen with our project and we started at Manhattan Theatre Source and it was 12 people and you have a couple choices to be like only 12 people came or like 12 people came and I'm doing my show in New York so how do you how again I do that thing of what is your mindset around it and it becomes a little half full half empty and they're not always easy choices to make but the more you can kind of just continue to make your work continue to put it out there keep putting it out there keep putting it out there I don't know I believe sometimes if you continue to believe in it some path will reveal itself yeah to go back to the how do we define emerging established and dead like one of the less popular things that was going in my head in terms of how to define somebody that's established is who's perpetually putting the stuff out there like I was actually if I can sort of name drop I was thinking about one of your collaborators our friend Michael Mott who's like 18 and a genius and beautiful and lovely just constantly putting stuff out there constantly putting stuff out there he's actually 29 29 but I look at the way he's constantly generating work and putting it all out there and meeting people and still supporting us and his community I'm so not only impressed but also very like attracted to that I find that to be a very valuable lesson a very valuable model in the perfect world we could define established by people who are still willing to just do it and do it and do it again and do it again and do it again and do it again that's an interesting thing that maybe this conversation is more about how do you define established because like Emily said to equate it to productions isn't really necessarily a reasonable thing to do or in any kind of linear fashion that you were emerged and then you emerged and then you're established and and then you're dead I mean I think you're yeah that's interesting Terri how are we doing for questions do we have questions do we have any questions in the room do we have any questions in the room yeah go ahead all of this is wonderful but I think the one thing that concerns me at this point in my 255 is and I'm going to guess but I can always speak for myself I'm going to guess that this is a model of a lot of people doing the practicality of not just putting out work but from the next step getting, trying to get a notice and attribution to that and I understand the submission process and some of the frustrations that I encounter are things like I don't expect you to press a button to solve this but there are of course many organizations that won't accept any unsolicited work or something a lesser of a major representation or the only take 10 pages I don't want that but frankly I'm sure you don't want to take this on that level I don't think you can judge a work in 10 pages I think you can evaluate very poor writing so this is very cool but I don't think you can take 10 pages for any page play and say this is I don't want people to go to play but that's an obstacle we all have to deal with I said what I'm asking you is are there any tips, ideas or whatever not to get them around the process but film our work out into a broader net not just to the companies or the theaters that have 10 pages unsolicited and I don't want to monopolize the time but there are a lot of related questions here but how do we have to do to get to the dating until we get past the dating but we've got enough we have our own work we can be confident about it we can get past the dating but we've got nothing and if I may ask anyone who mentioned before we need 500 plus and minus submissions or applications how welcoming are your organization and comparable to people who are basically over 50 years old but you are writing frequently and often are you going to say that we should invest more in people who are funny and afraid because they've got 8 or 10 or 12 or 15 or 18 or 15 or 16 or maybe a flash in the pan so to that point that never comes up in conversation someone's age is truly irrelevant in the process of getting awards other opportunities productions we have 3 meetings where the 7 person committee comes 2 new dramatists they can last between 12 and 15 hours where the work is discussed and they winnow the list so they actually talk about the work and the applicants all focused on the merit of the work as they respond to it so things like candidacy status of career how many productions someone has how many awards they've received none of that comes into the decision making process it is all about the merit of the work as they respond to it and then how they arrive at consensus among the 7 people to move certain people forward and then they have a second meeting same and then a final meeting where that's the meeting where they actually determine who the incoming 5 to 8 writers are so really the 2 full meetings and half of the second are all focused on the merit of the work and their response to the merit of the work or the passion they have for the voices that are being discussed so I think it's very welcoming you know that's part of it it's a very open process I just want to make just a clarification prior to going paperless we were averaging about 350 applications when we went paperless 2 years ago 3 years ago is when we spiked up to we had 536 and this year in the upper 400 we thought 350 was a lot so anyway I just want to say that it's very welcoming those factors are not actually part of the decision making ever it's really the passion for the voices and as they determine it amongst themselves and what they value and in writing and for theater as it is as an art form and the future of it so I would say it's pretty welcoming and I would say that within the community during my time the age range has been late 20s to mid 60s and so it's just it has been I mean it's yeah I have a response to it I think you have to self produce and you might say what do you mean by that but I offer it to you too I'm like I don't know what anybody's situation specifically but have you like exhausted possibilities for the work to get out there and have you exhausted it again and have you gone through the book and submitted to every single thing and submitted again even if you don't think it's right to I'm seeing stuff in the tri-state area to contacting the local college or local theater group or a theater troop at a community college and say do you ever do new works or play and just go for it like lean in and full tilt bookie and it's not going to be fun or easy and it's going to take more work than probably actually writing your show but I just throw that out there for something I don't know if but I'm a big fan of like the self producing and he's like but I don't know any actors or whatever I'm like then go to again like go to the junior college anybody and write them with a very specific thing and say do you have a slot for this one act do you have a slot it's out there the resources are out there and it kind of falls on us to just keep pitching our own stuff does that resonate at all or yeah sure right the ten minute I think the ten minute play has become really popular partially because there are more festivals that are producing ten minutes and then you get introduced to more and more people I just throw that out there as a comment can I throw my head in here too because I've actually had this experience as well where I feel like I've done everything that I can and I'm sort of still on like an outlier and it's a very it's a very frustrating position to be in I'm only going to speak for myself but I found that my solution to that was to actually be a lot more active in my community than I had been which sounds very yody and I don't mean it that way I mean like I'm part of the BMI workshop I make an effort to see what I can do for that organization and for that organization's younger writers having been a guild fellow here two years ago I now help Seth Koderman do social media for the fun and we've live tweeted from the gala every year like that alone does two things for me the first thing it does is it takes me out of the equation again which is constantly something that I'm struggling with takes me out of the equation and it enables me to meet and see what everybody else is doing that alone opens up a million other doors oh he's the guy that just wants to serve let's just check this guy it just it really shifts the paradigm and when you've like spent a year or two years working on this thing that you know is great but like you just can't get somebody to like pay attention like now you have like five new friends who can help with that the other thing that it does is it opens it opened me up to younger fledgling theater companies right and this goes back to what I was talking about before when I was applying to things about whether or not you go and allow it there are certain people like you go to like to the backstage or whatever and you see these acting companies and you're like oh that's just a dude just out of college he doesn't have anything, he doesn't have a job he needs a trust bond or whatever but like this generation's fledgling theater companies are next generation's MTC they all start from somewhere and do I as an older person like feel like it's inappropriate for somebody of my age or position or wisdom or knowledge or any of those things to work with somebody who's younger than me or less experienced or does that become a seed that I can plan and for every example that I can think of where I've said yes I've also said no but I feel like it took me a long time to realize that everything in terms of me thinking I was exhausting my avenues was really me saying no to a lot of things that I should have been saying yes to recognizing instead of optical opportunities, you know that's great advice there was a question did you have a question? show business is nothing to rule through regulations if you can't get here from there it's impossible except it's a green factory and you just make it happen anyway I spent a lot of years as a publicist as your publicist many years ago and and from knowing the industry I realized that I started writing plays when I was about 50 but you have to ignore the rules and regulations and the industry will tell you no all the time once you've experienced a sacred zone of making your own work you'll do anything to get in that rule with those people in those holding chairs to get those biffs and actually wind up finding ways to self-produce the John Charity Festival for Midtowns all these little spaces 10-minute plays all over the country once you've experienced it it really is like crap you'll do anything to get back in the room with those people and wind up being on stage with people that you don't sometimes people that you don't know seeing your show and getting reviews and even with all that you go back to square one I was blue man's publicist for many years I remember we did a 10-minute play festival and the source and I started writing plays because they got really sick on my job I had a heart failure that went back to work and as a hero then I had a heart failure to bring them because if I'm going to die let me start writing plays against people because I was such a successful publicist I knew you're emerging you're not dead yet everything's good once you've seen the reaper it's all good plays every year wiped out my 401k producing them but I'm doing them but I talked to Richard Foreman last year because Ben Grantley called me and said what's Richard Foreman doing these days and I said to Richard what are you doing he said well nothing much he asked me how are my plays going wow diary he said Richard Foreman the partner winner all these years in the business he said oh nobody wants my plays so it's a great level we're fighting the good fight to your work, your jihadists never stop yeah thank you I love that thank you yes a couple of you have alluded to this when you were speaking about the day job and when you were asking what is your version of success one of the versions of success that I kind of keep still is when I don't have the day job anymore I've come to the realization that it's probably not going to happen I've learned it's called having a hybrid career yeah I want to know what all of your experiences are at this point in your careers with other types of work do you still resort to other types of work how do you integrate them to work out what's your strategy for could I please start just because I feel like you all have better stories than me I work 40 hours a week for an investment banking firm for my own health insurance and I make a lot of copies but interesting story of your own stuff yeah they do and that's part of the task they're better factors that's what I say and they always get to thank you in the program they always do interestingly enough I was having a conversation with our friend J. J. Macapuga a couple of years ago and she was saying I'm really excited about my job because I want something that's challenging I want to not be bored at my work and I'm really looking forward to being able to balance out with auditions and like fast forward a couple months later she was like boy my day job is really challenging and I have a lot of responsibility now and I can't get to my auditions and I said take note because that's exactly what you asked for right so what I asked for with my survival job was something where you hit the glass ceiling like on day three you get there and you do it and you can commit to it but when you leave those doors you leave it behind and you don't have to carry it with you and sometimes there's a lot there's crossover where they can help you and it turns out my boss is married to a writer in one of my writing groups and so like yeah and I didn't know that before but it just turned out to be this really circuitous thing where I'm not afraid to ask for time off if I need it but it really gets it and anyways that's sort of where I'm at now and I spoke earlier about a successful day not rolling my eyes and somebody asking me what on Broadway I've written and having to say no well something that I'm very proud of is when somebody asks me what I do without flinching I say well what do I do to pay my rent or what's my career and it's just a matter of fact because it's just like what you said so that's where I'm at well I packed the book boxes for 10, 12 years of my life and wrote plays at night and I've only recently transitioned into being a full-time writer but I also supplement that with teaching and workshops and things so I say I'm a teacher too and use that to supplement income which is definitely needed even with subsidiary checks and things like that and I also enjoy that teaching it kind of fuels it I love too a little bit about again comparing contrasting to other people or fantasy that acquisitive mind because I had for years of like the perfect day and like that must be awesome and I do think you have to be careful or I always had to be of equating that that that meant I would be a better writer or a different kind of writer or be more productive and yeah, yeah so I'm all for honesty in the day job there were days I'm like this sucks I don't want to go to do this but I did it and I would do it again and I may have to and I'm like there's no shame in the game and we do what we gotta do and you wake up an hour earlier before you go to the office and you get some pages out or you stay up a little later then you want to and you know have a cup of coffee and get some more pages out but I I'm always like no shame in the game you do whatever you can do with food, a roof over your head and you get to rock your art in between I would say that the writers at New Dramatist I mean I would 99.9% have some other method of income or some other a lot of it's teaching a lot of it's television if I've gone to television but I would say that it's very few playwrights that I know make their living solely from writing or from the theater or the theater productions and stuff because they're writing all the time and I think a lot of it is about the discipline of when do you write and how does that where does that fall within what else you have to do that day to make sure that you have food and shelter and things like that so I think that that would be a dream situation for many but I think it's not totally realistic it's hard I mean I met a lot of people at my day job it got me out, I got on the subway all that influenced what I was writing so I got to a point too, I was like careful what I wish for too because all of that struggle went into the art and went into making what I wanted to say and influenced and got me out there and interacting, it was part of my artistic makeup it was actually also the view of the world comes from outside that fuels whatever you're writing it makes me think too going back to your question that so much of what is being echoed here, it's just also what are the resources within your own community for support I think about the foundation of Newdromatis was playwrights are each other's greatest resources, the organization was founded by a playwright for other playwrights and ways to create opportunity to support each other as they were trying to seek and find opportunities for production so I think that they're what is that potential to within your community or your peers of other writers and what you can accomplish together to get the work out there to share that work too so it's not just a sort of always being faced with a gatekeeper which I think is enormously frustrating and demoralizing that's great advice did you want to answer? well it sounds like unlikely miracle but I actually make most of my living as an actor I don't know how, I really don't I honestly don't no everyone's talented television and plays and then yeah so it's a miracle and I say yes to everyone who calls me to do a meeting but I learned from it, I really love it because I meet the other writers and watch the new works being developed and learn a lot from that whole process consider that a part of my writing education as well yes well I'm going to echo something that Hunter said earlier about asking myself what do I want to see that nobody else is writing or producing and just doing that back when I was acting I worked with a filmmaker who said the very same thing and he didn't ultimately make it as a filmmaker but he's always made it in my mind as an artist because he asked that question and he challenged me to ask that question but I'm sort of an odd bird because the bulk of my work in musical theater specifically involves telling stories of people who look like me that don't necessarily involve people that don't look like you well, I mean the immigrant story when we think of Asian Americans in theater we think of the immigrant story or the exotic story and for my money those are two great stories but there's like 15 million other ones that nobody else is writing and that's sort of what I did and so given that that's what I elected to do I found myself in a position where I didn't have any real mentors that could do that I mean some people wrote stuff like that but others who didn't who were writing as composer, lyricist, librettist weren't particularly political and so at one point I realized oh, I can just make it up as I go along which was so liberating because for me I'm the most bankable academic you can teach me all the rules and I'll just play by them and to just think out of the box oh, that's what everybody else has known all their lives that I didn't and that's like I think part and parcel to for me in figuring out what my voice was is understanding that it doesn't it isn't born from mimicry and it isn't born from being like necessarily what sort of looking for iterative I guess, iterative but innovative instead and the end I guess if it's coming from me then it's my voice is kind of what I've arrived at and I don't know if that means I'm still kind of like searching but if I had to land on a more sophisticated answer again I write primarily musicals and I love going to musical theater and I like big spectacle too I'm like what if musicals look like how we talk when we're at a coffee shop and so that's kind of sometimes that influence that things seem more mundane if you blow it up into musicals that always interests me to get me started of how we talk to each other on an elevator or but I guess if it's like I said if it is coming from me then that's my voice, I think yeah and like what I mean for real coming from me to cut this that seems too weird like that actually is my voice I found and that's the thing like that I was from nervous to put out there for some reason I was like this is no one will know what that means it's either too specific or to whatever I'm like I think that actually is my voice and I've learned that the easy way and the hard way too and I've cut it I'm like oh man that was good or when I kept it in and it meant something or got the reaction that I hoped it would from people watching it yeah saw that stuff I wanted to cut you know I I started writing because I was encouraging my writer friends to write literally you know me I like this I like to gather people so I was having these conversations with some writer friends who said I just I need to I need someone to help push me a little I need to have people there to great I'm going to get together a room full of writers and directors and actors and and of course I had to name it it's the collaborative collective and we're going to get together and help each other create stuff and just keep going and then somebody said well what about you why aren't you writing something I don't know how to write why don't you try and then I realized oh I have made I do have something that I really want to say I started doing it and but where my voice I think came out was when I realized I had things to say that weren't being said and that I should still say it you know that to not try to fit into whatever the commercial mold was or what was expected I can tell you as an as an actor I would say 99% of the new scripts that I read audition for in big commercial productions are about Asians from Asia not Asian Americans my family came here in 1852 for the first time so you know my experience is that I think you know Asian American and when I started thinking when I started writing and I thought oh am I supposed to be writing what people want me to write it was never good and so I think once I was able to just own that I'm going to say what I want to say then I was able to unleash my own voice and I don't think I could have done that at any other time than when I did that sounds a little obvious too but I believe that well I have absolutely profound respect for people who find their own individual voice I also want to say a word for copy recently well for years I've been thinking how did Shakespeare do it did he copy from the movies how did he do it a few seven years ago William was on television well I've been working a lot in the beginning of the play on over-amused fire I've been thinking how I did it sure enough Shakespeare got that exactly from the Odyssey back over that's the way he started his career was over-amused something so that's just whether we work or copy well I think I call it like inspiration or imitation but if it's funneled through you it is your voice and it can be inspired by Iliad by Shakespeare and it'll be your voice if it's funneled through you we have three minutes so we have time for maybe one more question yes hi is there a way that the organization itself could say oh here is this one of the groups that's gathered here lets put an email list together and see if we could I don't know put some chairs together or just prepare a warm place and if we have a month-year we have a way to support each other through the process of this and urge each other off have you participated in the DG Huddle yet? no because that it's a fantastic thing that connects people across the country they do it through zoom you have to be on your computer and monthly I think they have a conversation of different topics so maybe this is a topic that I'm happy to suggest it to them none of us here work for the guild but that's a great it's a great start to be able to connect people that way okay well I guess that's it thank you so much thank you Christine thank you Christine and thanks to Dramatist Guild so hot in here oh my god