 Hello everyone, thank you again for your patience. I'm Cynthia Tindongan and I am from Ohio University. I'm on the board of the USETDA Association and I'm glad that you're here both in the room and joining us virtually. I'm delighted to introduce you to John Foudreau who will be talking about whose cue is it anyway, integrating accessibility in your templates, educating support staff and showing when the rules can bend. We would like you to ask you to mute and turn off your audio unless you are actively participating. And with that, we'll turn it over to John. Thank you so much. Thank you. So yeah, obviously my title is probably a reference that may be timely now, not timely I should say, but to whose line is it anyway? And it does seem like improv is the name of the day today. So make sure we get on this working. So I am the repository librarian for the University of Pittsburgh. My role there is obviously to take care of the institutional repository. I've been there since 2014. I managed that in several subject archives using the same platform currently, but I also have taken on the role of coordinating ATD support and training. So we utilize our institutional repository for the ETD process. And so it made it a perfect fit to have me be able to take over some of those duties. So today, we're gonna go through some interesting puns on segments that used to be in that show if you had watched it previously. I wanna talk about our background in history, the process that we use, which after listening to the plenary session, should be an interesting and informative snapshot of how our process has changed over the last, I guess it's been about 21 years or somewhere around that, yeah, or 20 years about. And what we've done to revise our support setup and integrate accessibility and training into our informative materials that we give out and workshops that we provide. And then I'll talk a bit about what I've tried to do to help with our support staff and do the training there and provide the resources for them as they continue on their ETD approval process. And at the end, we'll have time for questions. Obviously, we can take some time. I usually talk pretty quickly, so we might have a lot of time depending how this goes. So as I mentioned, I guess our ETD program in the current state started around 2005. There was a panel put together in the university to transition our print manuscript process into the electronic thesis dissertation process in 2004 and it was formalized in 2005. And they used a ETDDB database platform for submission and archival maintenance then, but they transitioned into our E-prints repository we currently use for institutional repository, which allowed for author self-submission of works, which then facilitated students being able to submit their ETDs for approval. Now, at the same time, the university decided that it would be best to have a decentralized approval process, which has its positives and negatives, obviously, but utilizing the institutional repository and the functions in E-prints allowed for that mediated approval process. So we could literally say only people in the school of engineering get to see these ETDs for school of engineering. So it's helped facilitate that efficiently for the most part, but it involved a lot of training, a lot of maintenance for us to continue performing those sorts of reviews. So this was the general setup that we have for what we call our ETD process group, which is a pretty much a volunteer group from different organizations in our university, obviously led by the office of the provost and with support from the registrar's office and then several individuals who may, who want to serve on this body for making policy decisions from different graduate schools. We term them a student services staff and it's just somebody who was doing the approval or providing the graduate information to the students. And the university library systems always had somebody involved in this process, but it was to different degrees throughout the years. Now, currently we're quite involved in the process and my role has escalated from more or less just a support role where we'd answer questions about formatting to try to lead a lot of the innovations that we're doing in the process and steer things toward a more accessible version of our ETD process. Now, I put this in as a bit of a lighthearted comment, but sometimes this feels very true. This statement being a camel is a horse designed by a committee and any of us have ever served on committees making longstanding policy decisions. You may understand that sometimes what you intended to have when you started that conversation, started the process, turns out to be something completely different and many of those looking on from what you ended up with, wonder how you got there. And I'm not trying to be critical of our process or where we're at right now, but this is definitely something when I came in in 2017 to be more engaged in the ETD process group, I started to wonder why we were doing certain things that we had always been doing. So as an overview, I heard a lot of interesting variations upon the theme if you will for how ETDs are approved in different universities. Generally speaking, this is how we have the process set up and what we have to manage. We have our guidelines that were set from this original group based mainly upon the manuscript formatting guidelines that were for print. And it is something that I continue to try to bring up in your conversations is that we need to think beyond print at some point. We don't need it to necessarily look exactly like a typed manuscript looked in 1982. We can do better with the technologies we have in front of us and make it more seamless for students to create something that looks professional and is accessible in their final version of their ETD. So the guidelines loosely addressed accessibility when it wasn't necessarily a thing that we were considering in 2004, 2003 when it was originally drafted. And they tend to focus more on format than function. And when I say that, I mean it was going back to as I heard earlier getting out the ruler and I heard tales of ETD reviewers literally holding a ruler up to the screen to measure the margins on a PDF. Even though there's a ruler function, I know it sounds interesting, but they did that. So trying to figure out how we can make the format more consistent and easier to get to and less restrictive as well for a lot of things but making sure that the functionality of the document is working and accessibility is the real key feature for the future documents that we create. So the templates that we have based upon those guidelines, they created a Word template that was basically the idea was to make it so that you could easily make a PDF from that whether using the plugin from Adobe or just the save as PDF from both PC and Mac. Now we don't have a cloud version for the 365 Word application yet, that's a little more difficult but they're still able to do a lot of the editing but this was the original coming from 2004. When I came in in 2017, it was just a document. So it was a DocX and I said, why is this not a template document? Which then improve things greatly because what you know if you've worked with Word documents not having the base templates downloaded onto your device can cause problems when it tries to reference different styles as they change. Now the LaTeX template was something again I had to learn quite quickly. It was a heavily customized, it wasn't even based on the thesis type. So it was a very heavily customized version of another template that when originally made we commissioned a student in the music program actually at Pitt to develop this LaTeX template and he wrote a lot of interesting comments within the template itself and the associated documentation but in doing so and applying certain techniques to create it over time they started to deprecate certain things and also go into conflict with other packages that were being used especially in the sciences and even in mathematics with how we were setting up the Hyperref to create headings and so on and the PDF version that was created from it. So trying to understand where they were originally trying to start out with the template and where it is now is back to the camel reference and that's what I have to try to deal with with the templates. Now the approval process as I mentioned is a student submitted a scholarship or institutional repository, individual staff or teams within the graduate schools will do the review and the repository and then send it back to the student in that particular deposit structure with sometimes commentary within the repository, sometimes send as an email. I've recently been trying to do annotated PDFs and teach staff how to do that. So again, that's another training area where we had to do a little bit of technology training for those who weren't as adept with Adobe Acrobat to do the annotation. So it made it easier for the students to see I'm talking about this paragraph on this page versus sending an email saying on page four you need to change this paragraph. Well, is it four on the page or four in the PDF aggravation bound with that? After this, which the student would then revise and read deposit through that particular record within our institutional repository and the staff would approve it upon graduation and apply any embargoes or what have you that needed to be associated with that. This however was apart from the rest of the administrative process. So the schools individually controlled making sure on the graduation forms, surveys any payments for the process fee or any other records that needed to be aligned before they could graduate. It was all separate from the institutional repository and separate from the particular process. So that also caused a bit of a fissures to develop and how that we were checking things how they were being approved in timing. Now the institutional repository is ePrints for now we are looking at changing to a different platform but it does allow for embargoes and restricted metadata so we could change it so that something is only available to pit for a certain amount of time. And we also have a dark archive state which is basically saying that the metadata is hidden as well as the full text from everybody even the person who originally added the record. So it is file agnostic and we are looking to improve that in the future iteration of our repository to make sure that we can do things that are beyond text. We wanna make sure if we have videos or supporting material, things like that it can be included in the review process which adds another layer of complication to how we continue to train and provide guidelines for what is acceptable when you get beyond words on a page. Now in terms of technology we try to make it as simple as possible for the most part but as we know those of us who work with documents and files daily that it's always amazing how many different glitches can happen depending on what version you're using what OS you're using where you got your template from and so on. So we try to make it so students would only need the MS Word application or LaTeC Compiler or Overleaf which we use abundantly now on our campus but sometimes that could be problematic and I've seen people who will take a Word document make a PDF then convert it back from a PDF to a Word document and try to keep them educated on what the base processes for file creation is sometimes tricky. As I mentioned cloud based apps are not really supported in our process yet I've been trying to explore a different way to allow students to create documents for those that use things like Google Docs or what have you and it's not necessarily as simple as it seems with that regard. So we're still keeping that far away from saying that it's active but we try to help where it's possible. Now currently we don't have a need for the student to download or use Adobe Acrobat in the creation process. Previously we had them create the Word file and use the plugin to create it and then go in and check for bookmarks and things and add bookmarks that were not compiled from the original Word document but some innovations I took with the Word template made it possible so we didn't have to have them create anything which did cut down a lot of aggravation and a lot of review lag when they were submitting. So again I love my quotes, I love nothing there's but change and that is absolutely true in the process and I think most of us will agree with that that often time there are opportunities to continue to develop or change the process that we've been using for years and years and years. So what I did when I came in and my office of scholarly communication and publishing that I work within in the library we looked at what the common issues were. Now we have a ticketing system from SpringShare that LibAnswers we call our ETD support helpline basically that we were seeing most common things where how do we preserve the bookmarks in the final PDF which is a guideline mandate that we have that we wanna make sure that all bookmarks are there for reading accessibility that anybody with load and no vision would be able to read this with a screen reader and sometimes if the students were not following the directions that we did provide at the time this was a very common complaint and a common review comment if you will from the schools when they were turning their ETDs. Links were broken to chapters and captions and so on which is again another process problem in how you were creating your document or whether you're using the particular styles we've included in the Word document and trying to educate the students on what that means and how they can fix that. Page numbers might shift from the preliminary sections which we have lowercase roman numerals which shift to Arabic numbers in the body of the text and that's something again that was somewhat hidden from the students in terms of the formatting and how that was done and so try to make sure we provide documentation on that was something that I tried to make sure we could have available. There was often unclear instructions of how to do something as simple as making a page landscape from portrait style and also even simpler than that I suppose was where you can go for help. When I took over the position one of the issues that we had was there were two different ETD library generated ETD distribution lists for answering questions one was called ETD support and I'm actually can't remember what the other one was called offhand but they both had ETD in the title and so even the staff that had been doing it for years didn't know which one to use so you have their question answered. So we simplified that we streamlined the process and we made sure what we could do with the refinement of our support process but also the ETD process in general. So the group that I mentioned previously changed membership slightly we added a few more people and we made it something that had a standing meeting maybe quarterly at best when it first started but we set out to look at a multi-phase analysis of the process and look for areas where we can make changes and improvements and basically a process audit at that point but also to set it up to say we are going to be working over time to make sure that we get to a new place where we can say we are doing something for the students that makes sense it reduces some of the issues that we have been seeing come up especially for staffing as well. Create an updated site that had been lagging for years for instance an example I always go back to when we talk about what we did was that there was a section for video tutorials that had three PDF documents in it making sure things like that were updated and were actually useful to the students and the staff members who might need it for reference and after the pandemic especially as we started the phase the multi-phase analysis slightly before the pandemic started but it definitely took hold when we had lockdown at the university that we wanted to make sure any analog forms could be reduced to zero if possible. We didn't want the students going around campus trying to find professors to sign their committee forms and things like that. So anywhere we could streamline the process to make it digital to make it easier to do and more concise that was one of our big ideas. So the process became what we put into three different channels prepare, write and submit. And obviously the prepare was teaching and training and providing the resources. When it came time to write this was giving them information the things they need to think about once they have the concept for what they are writing and where to go for help. So we have copyright primers we had formatting guidelines and instructions and tutorials beyond just the general guidelines but we also have our ATD support desk which currently is just myself and my supervisor helps when I'm out of the office. We have a student support assistant that we also utilize for our chat services which may be a walk-in desk once things are settled in our current situation with our building renovations. Then the final stage was talking about how do you submit and what do you do once you submit? How do we communicate? Who's going to be doing this process? Who to contact for those particular questions and what to do after it is approved? What other options you have for embargoes and reaching out to ProQuest for services? Because that's also something I didn't quite mention is that our processes that we currently at least with ProQuest is that we once approved ProQuest harvest from our institutional repository once a month and if anything is available in the open access for the state of that particular ETD it will then be submitted to ProQuest for inclusion and then we'll make the microfiche and have it hosted on their database. So making sure students understand that process and that complicates things sometimes with copyright. So anytime we have any sort of unclear advice anytime there was a complex issue that comes up we try to route it through us through ETD support the library because we have made enough connections and have an understanding of the process and we are keeping up to date with that whereas sometimes when you get to a staff member who has maybe literally four students graduating every other year they're not engaged in the process of understanding what needs to be done. So one of the other things I tried to do beyond what was already instilled within the ETD templates was to add accessibility shortcuts and what we mean what I'm talking about with that is that currently speaking if we took our ETD template the word template as we have it create it into a PDF and run it through an accessibility check it will get probably 90% 85 to 90% depending on what's been done in the document. And that's a great thing to start from but we're not at the hundred and I'd like to make sure we get to closer to 100 if possible as we go down the line for accessibility standards at the university. Then we customize the styles in the Word document so when they're made into PDF bookmarks they will meet the standards for headings and bookmarks within a PDF. We try to take advantage of the template to add instruction so not the current version that's out right now the next iteration of it that I'm going to release quite soon will have many, many more instructions taken from some of our tutorials added as chapters within the template so the student could read through them before they delete them and add their own content they will have them there as a reference and they will always have the template on their document on their device as well to refer to. Now keeping images in line is another thing we've been trying to educate and talk about that if you use text wrapping in your Word for images in a Word document it can sometimes vary where the placement of the images on the page and they ever cause some issues with how the caption is inserted and sometimes making a break with that and the list of figures, lists of tables. So trying to educate on image formatting and image placement in a document has been troublesome and tricky but we're getting there and we're doing more with that and educating more students on how to do that. Now again, font families providing the suggested font families we use Times New Roman I'm not a big fan of that to be fair I think a sans-serif font is better. I have a background slightly in graphic design so I would rather see a sans-serif font but we are still using what has always been done currently and that's what we might wanna move from for accessibility because that is one of the suggestions as well. Now with the LaTeX template as I heard others who struggled with LaTeX and again as somebody who had not used it previously trying to understand how to educate students and how to provide support for structures that were sometimes in conflict from what needed to be done which was commonly done in LaTeX is problematic but trying to provide instructions on placement of figures and things like that to go around what again they might be commonly doing when creating the documents from a raw template has been helpful. Trying to suggest how we add caption labels and the descriptive text to those captions has also been quite successful and allowing students a little more flexibility in how they add their captions. Down the line we're gonna be trying to assess what's the best way to create your PDFs. I have been reading about using the PDFX package to create tag sections and so on because currently the way we are doing it is not necessarily always successful and it definitely does not meet accessibility standards. So try to find the best way to create a LaTeX document that is accessible without having to spend a lot of time remediating in Adobe Acrobat is one of my goals but that will be hard. And again, the sans serif font mandate in LaTeX especially as well can't be something we can do to allow for different spacing options as LaTeX generates its segments into the document. So in FY22 I decided to do a slightly off the cuff ETD approval analysis. So I took every ETD that was approved in the repository and I analyzed them on these very basic standards to say. Number one, where the bookmarks there. That was one of the things we've had since the beginning of the process and the guidelines we set out. So I said I'm gonna go click through and check and make sure they're here or they're not. I'm gonna check images and tables for alt text. I'm gonna look and see what the font families are and if they seem okay. And also check to see if there's any file info which is again another accessibility standard that we have not talked about at all with students or the supporting staff that do the approval. So this is not a general, there were some differences in numbers. If you look now how many are in for this particular year there were some administrative issues with getting things approved in time. But generally speaking, this is gonna be our benchmark for the next year or two as we start doing some of these changes to say how much have we improved and how much closer are we to getting accessible documents using some of these general standards to do that. So what are some techniques and tips that we used to get to there and what can I suggest you do as you continue to develop your process? I know this can also be difficult if you're the only person doing this for a lot of students but maybe some of these things might help streamline some of this for you and make it a little easier. So taking a look at the process, taking a look at what is required and what you actually need to be doing in terms of the staffing and the comfort levels for the staff. If they are completely swamped in terms of approvals maybe there's a way to spread that approval out if possible or to make some segments of the approval process easier for them. So do a staff survey. I did a staff survey for the familiarity of the guidelines when I got there because I didn't know the guidelines when I first started the position and I wanted to see that the people who were approving and citing the guidelines to the students if they actually knew what the guidelines were. And that was an interesting segment of the situation that was going on and a snapshot of what was happening. And it allowed me to generate more instructions and train based upon what they were not really understanding and then ask the questions as well, do we need this? Why are we doing these? Why is this standard this? Why is it this many DPI when that's different now 10 years from when it was written? And things like that. So then I made an open request form for updates or changes to be made to the process or to the template or the website and I made that available to the staff so that they could say, I'm having an issue with this, can you help me fix this or add this to the site or what it would have you or if they thought a guide would be useful that was a way for them to add to the process and give feedback at the same time. I also started hosting open meetings to educate and take questions. So I would give them a little snapshot of something that was happening or talk about why a standard is this particular way and why this is what you need to tell students for X, Y or Z but also just the time for them to say I don't understand what about this about the process can you help us understand a little better? So doing that made them feel more involved in the process and also allowed them to answer the questions more succinctly to the students when something came up rather than go you need to fix this and send a message back to them and then send them to me. So it kept us all involved and all supporting each other in the approval process. I also made a staff oriented list of dos and don'ts. So it was a very general thing to say don't approve something that doesn't have bookmarks don't approve something like this, do this and it makes it easier. And they're hosted behind the scenes on our intro web for RETD site and shared in the training for new staff members because we do have quite a lot of change over in staff over time and having new staff come into a process usually at the last minute we find and try to have them understand what they need to do and be able to approve graduate students' requests. Short amount of time and a very daunting process can be troublesome and tricky, but we did it. And so also having a checklist of approval steps customized to a SharePoint form we are experimenting with that to go beyond just the ETD approval and the document approval to go into where are you at in the stages of your submission for all your other documents as well. So one of our graduate programs has been piloting this where they've created it in SharePoint so they can send a view to the student of their particular set of records for saying yes, you have your approval form in you've paid your process fee you've submitted your survey burn doctorate and things like that and they can see what they're missing visually which makes it a lot easier for everybody to know what else they need to be doing. So what have we tried and what I suggest you might try? Do some sort of monthly open meeting whether it's a Zoom or in person host a workshop or brown bag, go out to the schools and talk to them directly, try to get in on any sort of introductory meetings at the beginning of semesters to talk about word, accessibility, copyright whatever it might be continue to engage with the things surrounding the ETD approval process. We found that to be really successful to get them interested. I don't know that always changes their worldview in terms of document formatting but it definitely allows them to understand a little bit sometimes what seems to be a really obtuse process and sometimes daunting technology gaps that happen in terms of what we're going to this to this how does that work? I have no idea and we can try to help them and make it easy to understand and get to where we need to be. Create a site if you can't even if it's a shared folder and a OneDrive folder or something like that for forms and policy documents and process maintenance documents that helps you understand again where you started from and where you need to go and it will help you have something to reference because we have had this also not necessarily for the ETD process but in the library in general we had, it's ironic as well I suppose that we had things in a box folder that were deleted as policy documents because somebody left the university and they didn't retain the access to that box folder and they were just automatically deleted when they left and so making sure you have a site to refer to forms and documents is a great thing to do. So make use of any sort of support services or for your workflow questions and any policy questions if possible I know that everybody's in the same situation that we are in or have necessarily the staffing capabilities for something like this but finding out where you can go to have a knowledge base or somebody who can refer these sorts of questions whether it's from the student or from a faculty member, a committee faculty member about what's going on about the process and formatting copyright whatever really helps to keep everybody engaged and have a resource to know where they need to go. So what am I thinking about for the future? I'm not sure if anybody else is doing certain things in this regard but this is at least where I'm thinking we need to go and what I'll be trying to do in the next year or so is to start making tagged boilerplate language that the staff can use when reviewing because again this is from one school to the next it's quite different in how they provide feedback and how they talk to the students about what they expect they may say your paragraph margins are off this must be fixed, cool but could you say paragraph margins need to be one inch on each side and here's how you would do that here's a resource, here's our guide to do that so try to create an easy way to insert the language for how to interact with the students makes it easier for them and cuts down a lot of the back and forth because in the library we are not involved in the approval process so I often don't see the feedback that the school is giving so trying to understand what they've told the student and the student tells me something slightly different and it's that game of telephone that sometimes can be really aggravating on our side because we're trying to help but we don't know what's being asked at the same time I'm trying to engage more with the staff I wanna make more connection with the faculty to do in-class workshops be embedded in the process and to allow to take some of the weight off the staff shoulders they don't need to do workshops for the students if they don't want to the library at least in my view we can do that and I wanna try and engage more and provide that earlier on in the graduate process graduate school process so that the students are equipped with what they need to know to make the document much faster and simpler than if they brought something they've been working on for several years and like oh I have a month to format it in this particular way and I have no idea what the template is what to do and so on also to create an onboarding workflow an informational site or packet or what have you to give to new staff members earlier in the process currently we basically would suggest staff be trained by one of our longest standing staff members who originally wrote the process when it was started and the guidelines but they are finding themselves stressed for time so trying to make sure everybody can get training in a timely manner would be more efficient if we had some sort of onboarding packet to give them more training what have you that is codified and easily shared and again more open training sessions I wanna focus more on office software such as we're in Adobe and really get into the nuts and bolts of what you can do with that that could also be utilized and there are other responsibilities beyond ETDs so trying to go quickly here if you have a few minutes I see a Picasso quote of learn the rules like a pros you can break them like an artist the mantras that I'm moving forward with as well and looking at the manuscript guidelines that were originally there let's start looking at function over form and I know this could be in contention with others and the theories about what is meant to be for documents but I'm looking at what's meant to be for accessibility looking at shorter paragraphs bigger breaks so we have accessibility addressed I don't care about the justification if it's left right justified or if it is left justified but be consistent within document make it look professional think about page breaks don't just use a bunch of paragraph returns to make a page break because functionally speaking better in word to deal with the actual application functions there than doing it with paragraph returns the biography style should be more fluid we had a suggested format and I would rather have students work with what they'll be publishing in so that they can be more custom to what they'll be doing professionally rather than arbitrary style that we use for ETDs and also focusing more on supplemental files and how those are associated with the document say if somebody has an audio recording of an interview they did with someone how do they link that up to their document and put it into the repository to be better referenced later look at individual expression I wanna make sure that students have more ability to customize the layout but still make it professional and how can we facilitate that without completely breaking a lot of the functional guidelines and functional things we wanna see for accessibility I heard this earlier about the three paper theses or dissertation we currently don't have particular guidelines for that but I wanna have that codified in the way that we can tell students this is what's expected here's how you do it so they're not shooting in the dark about how to make that happen looking at varying versions and this is something that's come up recently for us that we have a lot of copyright holders who are suggesting that we can't include certain things in the versions of the ETD that will be submitted to ProQuest so how can we make open access versions that would be housed in the repository but then also copyright restricted ones that could be shared in ProQuest so that's something we're dealing with and trying to figure out how we can break the rules or make new paths so what to do with non-textual submissions what do we have a student that's created the website and they wanna submit that as a major part of their document and also- Excuse me, John. Yo, yes. Excuse me, you have about five minutes left and I don't know if you'd like to take some time for questions or you'd like to just keep going through your material as a presenter that's up to you. Okay, I think I would quickly, I'm not sure, I got a little bit left out. I guess I'm gonna open up to questions. Yeah, my finale here is just to listen, plan, innovate, instruct, reflect and keep listening so it gets true in a lot of things but definitely true in the ET process I find. So sure, if there's any questions, be happy to take them. Anybody in this room could come up to the mic. I'd be better if they just came right up here. Oh sure, come up here please or what about from virtual folks? Okay, Kristen Terrell asks, can you explain what? I think you got muted there, sorry, I'm gonna hear you. One of our participants is asking if you can explain what bookmarks are. Sure, in terms of what we consider a requirement for bookmarks, when you open up Adobe document, Adobe PDF and Acrobat, there will be a bookmarks tab. So these are hyperlinked section markers within a document. And I know bookmarks in Word are a slightly different thing but in terms of a PDF, a bookmark is the sectional link that is used for navigation but also for screen readers to be able to understand what section you're looking at. But I don't have one pulled up right now to show you off hand but it is something you can create in Word using headings and some particular settings to do that, to generate your PDF from a Word document that has bookmarks already there which again, streamlined a process for students to create a more accessible document. John, you talked about the three paper thesis or dissertation, how do you place those papers? How do we place them? Well, they're still considered alongside every other ATD that we approve. The unfortunate thing is how do we format as I heard the metadata for it to say what is the bibliographic information for the document and how do we adjust things like abstract and chapters and so on and so forth. We still don't have great guidelines for that but it's basically just assumed to be chapters within the ATD document and to varying degrees each school feels comfortable providing feedback on that because we are proving ATDs for every sort of school from the school of law to chemistry to computer science it becomes difficult sometimes to keep the standards in line for what is common within the field in terms of how they write their research documents and maybe doing their projects. So we've been trying to figure out how we can keep things that are maybe copyright protected as well for chapters and teach more about getting pre-prints and policies for publishing but everything is still fit into the document and the template the same as any other. So it's sometimes difficult. Is the authorship on the paper a single author? Well, they will reference the authorship of the papers within the chapter but we can only have one author for the ATD itself. So they would have to write some sort of summary or something that joins the three papers, if you will as an introductory chapter. So this is my work that I've participated in these particular papers but it's so the ATD itself is considered authorship for the single student and not referenced through all the other authors. I'll talk about it tomorrow in the session tomorrow morning a placement of previously published information in the manuscript. It's kind of our opinion right now that a study of a manuscript should be reserved for several reasons and we'll talk about that tomorrow. Excellent. So it eliminates a lot of formatting if you put it back in a different way. Absolutely. I look forward to that, yeah. Thank you and we are out of time today. So I wanna thank John Fudrow from University Libraries and all of the participants in the workshop in the session. Thank you much and looking forward to the next report. Thank you everybody. Thank you. Thank you.