 energy 808D cutting edge. So pleased to be back with you all today. And I'm also so very, very pleased to have Breonna Sacks back with us again. She joined us a number of weeks ago, kind of in the throes of the Lahaina tragedy, and she was reporting from on the ground there. So we get a chance again to talk one on one with Breonna of the Washington Post. And thank you so very, very much, Breonna. I so appreciate you joining me and joining us today. Yeah. Thank you for having me back. So let's just dive right into it. I always like to ask my guest kind of how you came to the place you are, what your path was like since you're now reporting for, to me, one of the most important, one of the most esteemed national publications in the United States, the Washington Post. And I'm really curious as to how you came to where you are now. I spent, I like kind of learned how to journalism at BuzzFeed News. I was there for almost seven years. I, in 2017, covered my first disaster, which was in the U.S. Virgin Islands after Hurricane Irma and Maria struck the region and I really pushed to go. And I was able to pinagle my way onto a military in bed and probably I think was the first national reporter on the ground there. I had only been reporting for maybe six months and just had no idea what I was doing and showed up with some snacks and a flashlight. And it was like a developing country at that point, you know, there's no water power tanks were everywhere. It was just a really devastating scene and I was there for two weeks. And then I got back to LA where I was living and my editor was said there was a fire up in Northern California. Would you want to go cover it? And it was the Santa Rosa Tubbs Fire, which was another just mind blowing disaster because it had we not really seen a fire go into a community like that before back in 2017. So I turned around and went, flew up to Santa Rosa, and I just kind of became the disaster reporter among covering a lot of other things. And I was very passionate about it. So I just covered disasters nearly everyone for Buzzfeed news. And then this job came about last June at the Washington Post for a disaster reporter. And I applied and I got it. Wow. So you've been with the post a little more than a year. You started, you say June of last year? No, I last year I started in November. That was like when the job application came out. Okay. So you responded to a job application, you applied and you got the job. Just kind of curious, was it a very rigorous or multi-interview kind of process you had to go through to actually get hired? Yes, very much so. Wow. I would hope so. Well, I really appreciated your reporting from various disaster areas. And I'm kind of curious, what is the, what is the fascination you have with the disaster reporting? Clearly it's something that you're choosing to do, right? So what is it that floats that particular boat for you? I grew up evacuating wildfires. And I think for me, things turned in 2018 when a wildfire went through my own hometown. I lost some of my own childhood memorabilia in that fire. And I was driving around reporting while also seeing my former high school classmates lose their homes and trying to get supplies into the area that had been cordoned off by authorities. Very, you know, similar to kind of like what Lahaina went through in some way. So I'm a very empathetic person and just seeing the toll that disasters take on communities. And I very much realized early on that that toll is not equal, that people who have less resources and who are already on the edge of trying just to get by really get the short end of the stick and aren't able to recover as quickly as those with money and resources. And I just want to continue to shed light on that. I think there's also a lot of accountability in disasters in terms of who's getting the money and why and what are like the governments could be doing better. And yeah, and then just the personal connection to it as well. From a human perspective, since you mentioned that you're an empathetic person and you're talking to people whose lives have been upended to say the least if not really shattered by some type of disaster. How do you walk particular line of being an empathetic human being and listening to people's stories and yet maintaining necessarily maintaining I'd say some degree of objectivity to report the story. I think it's just always being a human first like yes I'm a journalist but also I can't help the way that I feel when I hear these stories and I think just letting people know that there's someone that they can talk to oftentimes that's like very cathartic for them and however I can do to help like yes journalists are supposed to help people to account but it's also a service an active service and if I can help them in some way that really motivates me and I think that comes with really understanding what they're going through and seeing it with my own eyes and hearing and validating their experience and I that I would hope you know that I can continue to do that and I don't know if it's about being objective or not but it's more that I could be a platform to get their voices out there and I assume you have a go bag right because disaster can happen for one moment to the next and you don't want to be thinking what would you need to put in a suitcase so probably have a bag ready to go at all times. I actually don't which is hilarious um I I mean I have like my think like we have our first aid kit our gear and everything but no I don't have a bag pack to go at all times. Well that's great that's great I so appreciate hearing your story kind of how you came to be who you are now as far as reporting for for the Washington Post. Thank you. Well getting into the Hawaii subject matter there was a article today in the Honolulu Star Advertiser regarding an interview that Hawaii PUC chair Leo Ascension gave that I was kind of struck by and I sent it to you a number of other people and I would like to ask what kind of response or thoughts or commentary you you have on what you read from from Leo in the piece. Yes granted I'm very much an outsider to Hawaii politics and governance and I'm not very familiar with the PUC I've had to really do a lot of homework and research being from California we're very different in how we handle it seems fire and the investigative process of of that especially when it seems when it's deadly but I was very surprised that the regulators in charge of this utility just are taking such a back seat in the investigative process and that it just seems to say that they don't really have the ability to you know kind of I think what do what people expect them to be doing and that like they're kind of toothless and they don't aren't capable of enforcing rules is kind of how I've read it. I also have like a question about like you know the statute that I think you know you and I talked about is especially in death that they're they're supposed to be you know investigating the cause so it to me it kind of adds it's just like another puzzling piece of like their response in general at which they didn't really say anything until I think almost a month after the fire they've seemed to just really want to take a back seat here which is different than than how California public utility commissioners have operated in the past. Yeah I was struck along the same lines as well and Leo specifically mentioned that they deal more with carrots rather than sticks and that doesn't strike me as being all that accurate in that the commission has many tools that it's in its toolkit as far as being able to sanction and deal with the companies that are under its regulatory purview so this rather yeah yeah I think it's notable and I you know I checked with former commissioners but that they haven't investigated a fire before which I was also kind of surprised by so I think you know this is like it seems like their first chance or experience doing so so I don't know really if it's just a novice thing or what again I have not done enough reporting like to really understand the inner workings of the commission but California we have our safety and enforcement division and they have levied pretty major fines and they you know investigate alongside our fire investigators our state investigators and they publish these really lengthy reports they've investigated every major wildfire in California and like you know based on recommendations that that division's recommendations the PUC then will give utilities huge fines that have been like tens of millions of dollars per fire kind of as we we as we move to to the line of fire and the response of or the liability of one electric and their situation right now it's it's striking to me that I mean I I don't know I guess how long how much longer do you think it's going to take do you have a sense as far as when the ATF is conducting an investigation when typically is there a time frame or a time range when one can expect when a member of the public can expect that the ATF will complete an investigation you have any sense I mean I haven't been on a fire where the ATF has been investigator that's incredibly rare so they're you know usually brought in for shootings and and things like that so no I don't have a sense of that time I know sometimes these things can take six months and that's but that has not been based on prior ATF investigation experience we're all in a wait and see mode here certainly yeah so you were one of the one of the reporters fairly early on the ground after the tragedy in line up and you were you know leading the pack of a number of media sources and I really so appreciate your reporting what what strikes you kind of with some retrospect now that it's like you know two months have gone by since the tragedy what strikes you from your reporting now that you you have a couple of months of hindsight as far as what happened why and the aftermath I mean it's just it's just gutting I think housing is just going to be it's like another community that was really already struggling with affordable accessible housing and this tension between again those with resources and the tourism industry and the people who are supporting the tourism industry and how their you know life around them continues to get more expensive and what the loss of all this housing stock will mean where do you put people the trickle down effect that has on people's mental health physical health emotional well-being their kids so there's there's all those factors that it's just like really incredibly hard and it's it's a really difficult puzzle to solve and Maui in particular I know historically you know the government's pretty from what I've been told in my reporting like hasn't really reached out for help from from other islands and so I think it seems it's having to really like kind of do a culture shift here and let other people and outsiders in to do their jobs which I know it was reticent to do in the beginning of the fire um so that that was a striking difference in in terms of like my experience with with disasters before was just that that um that cultural um you know that that attitude which is steeped in a lot of history that again I'm not very you know well versed in but I I think the yeah the housing and insurance is going to be a really big problem the fact that this was a fire and then also a wind event and insurance companies are notorious for not wanting to pay for fire for smoke damage remediation um so I think people are going to just really have a lot of difficulty getting what they're owed I mean from recollection the the average number of arrivals on Maui prior to what happened in early august is typically around seven thousand a day seven thousand people arriving today and needless to say the economy of Maui is and has been for a long time heavily dependent upon visitors coming visitors staying visitors spending money yeah and I don't know what the actual numbers are as of today or this week but uh my recollection is that you know soon after the the fires uh obviously those numbers went way down so let's just say that there's still around two or three thousand uh a day if that much compared to seven thousand so I mean the the the economic um hit on the island is is really substantial and it's going to be catastrophic it's catastrophic yeah especially in areas of west Maui and there's there's a real tension between those who are saying hey we need to attract tourists we don't want them trumping around the line area but there are parts of west Maui which are now deemed open and plenty of locals both native Hawaiians and non-native Hawaiians who believe that this is not the time to wide open have tourists cruising around and taking selfies and taking photos anywhere near the the disaster area I'm wondering what kind of comment or observation you have about that that tension and uh you know uh how can it uh is it possible to resolve it I mean it seems to two kind of opposing forces here where you have folks who say this is a chance for us to reset the economy the island away from tourism and others who are laying people off closing businesses day by day so uh well what's your take on that I I saw this a bit with uh in the US Virgin Islands and in Florida after Hurricane Ian and it I I think I don't know if it'll be a shift in how Maui's you know sees itself and its economy and if it's maybe it's a turning point I know many residents told me that they hope it is in terms of being a lot less reliant on tourism but the truth is like this this recovery is going to cost a lot of money and like where is that where is that money going to to come from so in in terms of like resolving this the tension I mean maybe the the dream would be there is some partnership among the other islands where they're able to like coordinate a better tourism strategy and share those profits and those those resources to just help Maui out and being sensitive to people who are still struggling but also a part of the recovery is like people want to be able to move forward and just get back to a routine and like a job and something that's familiar and that is I think to some people tourism and having visitors come and they can just focus on something else instead of the the trauma that that that they are seeing and it it that that does bring some sense of healing you know in a way so I mean it's difficult I don't think you resolve it I mean you can't please every every person and every person's you know especially those who are native Hawaiians their experience is very different than than other people so I think just trying to be as sensitive as possible with also the understanding that Maui has to move forward and what is moving forward look like and just kind of one interesting little data point I know a fellow by the name of Garrett Marrero Garrett is the owner of Maui Brewing he's been remarkably successful very successful over the years in in developing a brand a very popular brand and he built a whole new facility in Kihei on the the mountain side of the highway there and a very impressive huge solar electric system which of course brings a smile to my face and you know it's a destination for both umpteen time umpteen different kinds of beer and ale and also good food so me you know Garrett and his team and his wife have just done a fantastic job and he was quoted not too long ago saying that he's down to making what he used to make in a day as far as revenue he's lucky if he makes it in a week so I mean that's that's that's off the cliff right so oh yeah I mean they it'll take a year for them to make even probably 30 20 30 percent I would say of of what they were make it I mean even after Ian they erected these tents and these food trucks and they were trying to get tourists to come and it was just like a bizarre feeling where there's these mounds of of homes and rubble and you know they're still finding bodies in the mangroves and people are walking around the the beach and and trying to also have some type of joy and lightness there but I think that honestly like that's the post disaster world that's what it looks like and you just have you don't have to but like it's helpful to get used to that right that like both things can be true where you can have some business and serve others while also there is there is still a lot of trauma there and you just have to get hopefully used to there being both yeah what what better way to help a little bit with you know cold local crafted brews and I of course Garrett Garrett is team the best well let's let's move to the eye word you mentioned insurance earlier and you've been doing quite a bit of reading from different angles over the months on insurance and that of course is like you referenced a little while ago is is huge you know as far as when the insurance companies pay and when they choose not to pay so let's kind of start from the the broad 50 000 foot level and go down to specific so what what's your kind of overall take on where the insurance companies are these days regarding covering this growing number of disasters and obviously you know a growing amount of money that they're having to pay out which implies that if they stay in business right that they've got to charge their customers more money because they can't they can't they have to make adjustments so to speak so what's your kind of overall take on that I got insurance is so complicated and there's a lot of it that's so murky and not transparent that we don't really get to see or understand there's like the whole reinsurance aspect that is really driving insurance companies you know behind the scenes places like California Florida Louisiana their premiums are well California has been a bit better but you know Florida Louisiana Texas other places in the US their premiums have been skyrocketing because insurance companies are I don't know if there's arguments that they were under charging that people were under insured and then also like underpaying for their insurance because like that was the affordable way they could just you know that's how insurance companies are making money is selling all these policies that the normal person could could buy and and then it might not really need to use them and then all of a sudden they all need to use them and it's the insurance company that goes shit like we don't really have this this much money or we don't really want to pay for it um so then they have to start increasing rates and at the same time there's all these places that are really risky to live in and it is should be costing more to live there so what the equilibrium is I think we're still figuring out like you know the insurance company is the second most powerful um industry and lobbying in the the US um so are they like they're not really wanting for for money they have a lot of influence and and power and you know at the same time they insure and they fund and they back a lot of fossil fuel and oil projects that the government I think has you know been been investigating that and what that looks like and then how like what is fair for the consumer to pay um I think we're going to really see it get a lot more drilled down maybe the the hope would be kind of like neighborhood by neighborhood parcel by parcel I think like we have the technology and the data to do that it just in in terms of like regulations and uh transparency and how much insurance companies like want to work with states that that might become more above reality well and interestingly you know on my very own island here not many miles not that many miles away from where I am right now in uh in the punaw district as we call it uh an insurance company there the name escapes me I mean they essentially canceled the policies of I believe it's in the hundreds hundreds of homeowners there and these are people who have been paying their bills on time right for years and the the prospects of getting an interest with another company is likely going to mean a substantial increase and the the per capita income in this part of the island is is on the low side so I mean these are real people in real homes who are really suffering and that kind of brings to mind this piece that you did or focused on Florida on this one particular gentleman in his family who said hey I've paid my bill on time uh all this time and I was devastated by um was a hurricane and you know they're they're not paying me so uh what can you tell me about that particular story which I think is so poignant yeah I mean I heard that from dozens of people and I think we're gonna see a lot more people across the US especially in higher risk states just choose to go without insurance and risk losing everything because they can't afford to the other option which is just really sad and I was getting that a lot in Florida that these companies again that should have had enough in the in the bank it's very complicated and situational but yes that these people were paying their premiums and then when they need to be covered in full the company doesn't do it in the way that they the resident thinks they should and then it's the company's word against a single person forcing them to get litigation which a lot of other people can't afford so yeah a lot of people are just forced to give up and accept what they're given which is not a lot um at least that was in Florida and I know that's been happening in Louisiana as well and if the insurance company goes out of business after you've been paying your premiums sometime for years if not decades I mean what kind of recourse does an individual have who suffered major damage from a natural event it depends on the state depends on the state but yes usually in Florida where I'm familiar with you know they'll get what they you know attorneys and I consumer advocates say is pennies on the dollar it takes a lot longer for them to get this money the state has to take over um you know they come in using taxpayer resources and yeah what happens to the executives right it's like the that's the big question what do they walk away with uh you wrote a piece a number months ago that caught my attention as far as the insurance companies uh donating or providing money to the fossil fuel industry I thought that was pretty interesting because uh you know one could claim that uh it's the uh the consumption and the burning of hydrocarbons at the present time and also in the past that has led to climate change and these super storms and so forth what can you tell me about that particular piece which I thought was really interesting yeah that was interesting for for me too it was kind of my first dive into that and as I said earlier the government has I think it tapped like six or seven in the top insurance in the country for more information on the billions that they have been pouring into that industry and also what their policy you know if they're going against their own policies on preventing climate change or being you know trying to support that industry less and I mean that's the that's just the amazing part of the this industry is that they pay this like billions of dollars to support fossil fuels yet they're pulling out of states because climate change is making it too expensive to ensure they're or pulling back in states too and kind of before you leave leave the insurance topic uh what's happening in california uh they're they're trying to there's some type of reforms going on that would affect the industry hopefully to the betterment of the the citizens of california um yeah california is now working with the insurance industry a little more actually because we had some of the kind of like tighter tightest regulations and we had far below average premiums here for how much risk that is in areas of the state in terms of fire flooding so uh california insurance department decided to work with the insurance industry a little bit and we're and is letting them use uh kids like catastrophe modeling which is very common in the industry the reason why california didn't want them using it in the past is because it's this very complicated data usually run by third parties so there's not a ton of transparency so uh they could come out with a catastrophe model saying oh you know this part of the state we're projecting could be at risk for these types of fires so we're going to charge people there like 30 percent more and politicians are like what like we don't understand but what are you looking at like we don't have access to that it's private so california was really hesitant to do that but in the same time insurance industry our companies were then having to look at 15 year old data to make their projections so that's one big thing um and that they're going to be a bit faster and uh yeah faster at passing industry rate increases so actually consumer advocates here we're not really that pleased with the new reforms so well as we wind down here is there any question that you would like me to ask you or anything else you'd like to bring up or talk about in your you know reporting whether it's hawaii based or insurance or anything else for that matter uh that's uh for you wrap it up uh i mean i really hope to get beginning back to mali soon i i think we i have a colleague who's amazing his name is rice i think he's going back this month to just continue doing coverage he's very interested in the land ownership aspect and who is buying land if that's happening and uh that we're just really you know i i've gotten pulled off mali in some ways because i've also been doing a lot of hurricane ian reporting but my the part i love about my job is i get to go back to disasters when a lot of reporters don't so i plan on being back there in the the new year and really just keeping it in the news so if anyone wants to reach out um you know email is is pretty easy to find and yeah i think that's all i kind of have to add i think that's a great idea and especially you know it's removing past the so-called acute period of the disaster and you know the national attention and the lights and the reporters kind of go to the the next story and the money lines down you know the emergency funds to put homeless people in hotels for weeks or months at a time i mean inevitably there will be i sadly there would be more people who will be homeless because their money will have run out or the hotel will have you know how that goes so i mean it's uh we're in for the long haul here as far as the suffering goes sadly so uh well thank you so much brianna this has been a great time we've had together and i do hope that we can reconvene at some point you know we're interesting cheesy stuff to talk about so i'm hallow newy