 Good evening everyone and welcome to the 16th annual lecture in Jewish Christian Engagement Cosponsored by the Bennett Center for Judaic Studies and the Center for Catholic Studies here at Fairfield University For those of you who don't know me I am Ellen Yomansky the Carlin Dorothy Bennett professor of Judaic studies and director of the Bennett Center on On behalf of myself and Dr. Paul Lakeland Aloysius P. Kelly professor of Catholic Studies and director of our Catholic Studies Center I want to welcome all of you both those of you here in person and those of you who are with us virtually To this very special evening This annual lecture series gives us the opportunity to think Theologically historically and culturally about Judaism and Christianity and to engage our religious traditions and ourselves in dialogue with one another Focusing on the hard questions Questions that often are not raised for fear that they might seem too radical heretical even to one's own faith community or on the other hand Remarks that might offend exclude or suggest the supercession of the other a Discussion of the papal encyclical for telly tootie Pope Francis's 2020 letter on fraternity and social friendship The notion that all of us really are quote brothers or siblings Might not seem all that radical In fact, one might think it's an idea that all non-christians and all non-christian religions would welcome Yet as I think Rabbi Vesotsky will ask are there limitations to interreligious dialogue Are we really all brothers and if we are should we be wary of sibling rivalry? Rabbi Burton Vesotsky is Appleman professor of Midrash and interreligious studies emeritus at the Jewish theological seminary in New York City Where he joined the faculty following his rabbinic ordination in 1977? He was dean of the Jewish theological seminary graduate school and founding rabbi of the egalitarian women's League seminary synagogue He continues to serve as director of the Finkelstein Institute for religious and social studies at JTS Which does programming on public policy and directs JTS's Milstein Center for interreligious dialogue? Professor Vesotsky holds a master of education degree from Harvard University and a PhD from the Jewish theological seminary He's been visiting faculty at Oxford University and Cambridge University in England He has taught at Princeton University and Princeton Theological Seminary and at the Russian State University of the Humanities in Moscow He has been an adjunct faculty member of Union Theological Seminary in New York City Which is really diagonally across the street from the Jewish theological seminary since 1980 Rabbi Vesotsky served as master visiting professor of Jewish studies at the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome Where he met Pope Benedict in 2007 and he has been teaching there albeit virtually this semester in 2014 Professor Vesotsky served as distinguished visiting professor at the Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas The angelicum in Rome where he met Pope Francis He has published in America Europe and Israel the author of ten books editor of seven other volumes and the author of over 125 articles and reviews his recent book Aphrodite and the rabbis how the Jews adapted Roman culture to create Judaism as we know it was published in 2016 and His co-edited three volume 1000 page compendium on Jewish history literature and modern culture was published in 2020-2021 by Colhammer as part of their distinguished series the religions of humanity Bert Vesotsky served on the United States Holocaust Museum's Committee on Ethics Religion and the Holocaust from 2011 until 2019 and in 2015 was a founding member of the roundtable of religious and faith-based organization leaders Advising the World Bank president Jimmy on Kim He currently serves on the steering committee of the plan of action for religious leaders to prevent incitement to atrocity crimes For the United Nations Undersecretary General for genocide prevention and is a life member of the UN's Council on Foreign Relations Rabbi Vesotsky participates in inter-religious engagement in places as diverse as Jerusalem Rome Vienna Cairo Marrakesh Delha and Abu Dhabi In 2017 he joined the Board of Governors of the International Jewish Committee for inter-religious consultations The official body representing the Jewish people to the Vatican the World Council of Churches Islam and other international religious denominations He serves on the executive committee of shoulder to shoulder a multi-faith campaign against anti-muslim bigotry and On the Standing Committee on strengthening inter-religious education of religions for peace international Rabbi Vesotsky has been named to the forward 50 and Repeatedly to the Newsweek Daily Beast list of the 50 most influential Jews in America. I First met Professor Vesotsky several years ago at the annual meeting of the CCJR the Council of Centers on Jewish Christian Relations Although I knew of him and his work long before that It was at this meeting which with Mary boys of Union Theological Seminary he helped host in New York City I was struck as I still am by his energy and enthusiasm his deep-seated critical thinking an obvious interest and active involvement in inter-religious dialogue a Strong indicator of this being the many people at this conference. I attended I Was amazed at how many people at the conference. He actually knew I Am delighted that Berkshawksy accepted Paul Lakeland's and my invitation to deliver this year's lecture in Jewish Christian Engagement and to agree to be with us in person Paul and I want to thank Jennifer Hanoes program set program manager of the Bennett Center Mary Crimmins Administrative coordinator of the Catholic Studies Center and Anthony Santora in the University's media Center for all of their help with this evening's event Following Rabbi Vesotsky's talk. Dr. Lakeland will offer an informal response Which will be followed by a question-and-answer session with Professor Vesotsky Those of us who are joining us via a zoom webinar are Invited to type in any questions. They might have into the Q&A box either during the lecture or immediately after And having given these brief announcements and introduction Please join me in welcoming to Fairfield University to deliver the 16th Annual lecture in Jewish Christian Engagement on Fratelli Tutti the Good Samaritan and the rabbi rabbi bird Vesotsky Thank You professor your manskey I'm glad I had the cannoli and the espresso because now you're going to expect them to be all energetic and I'm grateful that you read the entire description My mom wrote it. So it's a it's a little over the top but it's it's really lovely to be here at Fairfield University and I feel a little bit like this is my my Catholic week in in the broad semester that I'm living out Since I retired from my full-time teaching position at the Jewish Theological Seminary Last Thursday. I was engaged in a dialogue with the Cardinal Archbishop of Washington, DC His eminence Wilton Cardinal Gregory and Then on Monday at my own seminary at JTS We hosted for Ramadan an interreligious iftar dinner and we had Hismit Turkish Muslims and to spice it up a little we invited seminarians from St. Joseph's Seminary in Yonkers so they came down and they came down in full regalia And I confess all of the women rabbinical students were envious of their garb They they all wanted that and then on Wednesday my rabbinical students a dozen of us We went up to St. Joe's Seminary to have dinner and a conversation with those same seminarians on the topic of calling that was just last night and To the eternal credit of Bishop James Massa. We had a strictly kosher meal for all of us So it was really quite lovely I'm gonna come back to that notion of a Catholic making sure that the meal is kosher But before I start my lecture. I want to say a few words And what I want to do is actually talk about an earlier Incyclical of Pope Francis one that he wrote in 2015 At the time he wrote a an encyclical called La Dotto Si Which is an exquisite document if you have not read it It is worth every minute of your time. You can download it. Just Google it La Dotto Si it is his encyclical on the climate crisis and Pope Francis did his homework Really everything he says there has been proven all the more so now seven years later and I got involved with my colleagues at Fordham University and other Catholic University not far from the Jewish Theological Seminary and at Francis's request We formed a study group of Jews and Catholics learning Paragraph by paragraph the contents of La Dotto Si We very quickly realized that this was an opportunity. We shouldn't pass up So we invited some Muslim colleagues some Protestant colleagues and chief among those Protestant colleagues was my own Colleague across the street from JTS as you mentioned at Union Theological Seminary the head of their Center for Earth ethics Her name is Karenna Gore. She is the daughter of vice president El Gore And that's a family that is deeply dedicated to saving the earth and when Pope Francis Invited our study group to come to Rome For a conference on La Dotto Si We didn't send Catholics and we didn't send Jews We wound up sending a Protestant and a Muslim to represent us because they were the two who were best spoke on the issue of La Dotto Si I want to make it clear that if Pope Francis can reach out to the Jewish community Whether it be in Buenos Aires or in New York that we have very good relations with this Pope His holiness is really a friend of the Jewish community We have gone from what his eminence Timothy Cardinal Dolan my local archbishop in New York City Tim Dolan referred to what we used to have is a dialogue of grievance Yes, we would dialogue, but and I'm quoting his eminence. We would catch a lot to each other You can tell that Cardinal Dolan has been in New York a long time. He is Yiddish is impeccable But we are moving and Dolan wants this to happen and as I said last Thursday I was in conference with his eminence Wilton Cardinal Gregory Cardinal Gregory simply said well, why don't we just set as our goal friendship Now that sounds so simple But I want to remind you and I'm looking in this room I can't see who's out there online, but in this room the average age is pretty young and You have no memory Thank God of the 2000 years of enmity between the church and the synagogue It wasn't just that we didn't talk to each other Church and synagogue Catholics and Jews hated one another Jews said all kind of nasty things about Catholics and in turn Catholics did all kind of nasty things to Jews It was not pretty. It was not good to be a Jew in a Catholic country We were often as not expelled from those countries sometimes as much as for 500 years We were murdered. We were tortured. We were forced to convert so the fact that we can now after Vatican II after no strata in 1965. So how many years is that 35 and 22 is Someone here must do math 50 something 57. Thank you Professor Jomansky you get the math point So after 57 years the fact that we can be talking about friendship That I Arab I can be invited to a Catholic University to talk about Something Pope Francis wrote it's nothing short of astonishing and I want to challenge everyone Online and everyone in this room that that friendship should result in us working together To do the things that God wants of us To clothe the naked to feed the hungry to give shelter to the unhoused Just how friendly are we after two millennia of enmity? I want to tell you a story that when I was teaching a couple of years ago in Buenos Aires My friend Rabbi Avram Skorka told me this tale now I'll be Skorka is a bit older than me and When he was in charge of the rabbinic seminar in Buenos Aires the local archbishop was a man named Bergoglio or as you know him now Pope Francis and Bergoglio and Avi Skorka bonded over being soccer fans and They rooted for different teams so they ribbed each other constantly and this was the start of a beautiful friendship The one book that Pope Francis wrote before he became Pope Apparently when you're Pope you write books all the time because you know you have guaranteed sales But when he was archbishop It was a risk and the one and only book he wrote was a dialogue book that he wrote with Avi Skorka Skorka tells me the following story The last day of the Fall Festival of Sukkot is called Schmini-Atseret If you know your Bible, you know that it is the quintessential Generic holiday. It's kind of a holiday on which Jews celebrate. Thank God The holidays are finally over and we can get back to work. It's just really not a Significant day and yet it is a holiday which means that observant Jews won't travel won't work won't write won't use money And Skorka says that he knew he was going to be in Rome on his way from Jerusalem back to Buenos Aires So he reached out to his friend Pope Francis and he said Francisco actually I don't know for all. I know he's still called him Jorge, which was his name before he became Pope I'm going to be in Rome. Can we see one another and Pope Francis is Avi my friend You're gonna be here. Of course, let's do lunch and Skorka says well I have trouble because the hotel I usually stayed is quite far from the Vatican So the Pope says well stay with me at Santa Marta Santa Marta is a hotel for bishops Pope Francis And it really tells you who he is does not live in the royal papal apartments He lives in a room in a hotel for bishops and he he boards there with the other bishops It's really quite extraordinary his humility. So he says to Skorka. So you'll stay with me I'll get a room for you at Santa Marta and we'll have the whole day to just Shmoos, I don't know if he used that word but to get together and reminisce and talk about what we need to do is Jews and Catholics Avi Skorka says well, that's good But I do have to eat and I don't think you have kosher food at Santa Marta and Pope Francis is Not to worry. I'll be your supervisor of kosher food And sure enough he was he made sure that the meal was kosher. So now they get there Avi unpecks it's time for dinner. It's the Jewish holiday. He comes in with the Holy Father. Everybody stands up. It's the Pope Pope sits everybody down. They sit down. He says to Avi now what? Avi says well at the beginning of a meal We say kid-ish Pope says what's kid-ish? He says well we take a cup of wine and the Pope says yeah, we got that He says but we make a blessing and we bless the day and we thank God for the wine. Pope says, okay, let's do it So Karka says but we stand up when we say kid-ish So Pope Francis says okay, you stand I stand so of course when the Pope stands every bishop in the room stands and now Rabbi Skorka recites kid-ish in Hebrew and Then the Pope says was that and he says let me translate he translates into Spanish Their common language the Pope repeats it in Italian and when the Pope finishes all the bishops in the room say Amen Now I guarantee you that is the first time in history That the Pope and a room full of bishops said amen to the benediction of a rabbi and It was an extraordinary moment and I'm sharing it with you not just so that you know what an extraordinary time We live in but that you know Pope Francis and you know his heart and you know how not only humble He is but how sincere he is in his love of his Jewish brothers and sisters now I want to come to Fratelli Tutti and I want to tell you and Professor Jomansky alluded to it. It was not written about the relationship of Catholics and Jews No, it was written on the occasion of an event that took place in the United Arab Emirates At which time Pope Francis signed a document of human fraternity. That's what it's called the document of human fraternity Will assume sorority as well with the head of the Arab Muslim Institution in Cairo Al-Azhar in Theory the head of al-Azhar the sheikh as he is called is Kind of the Muslim equivalent of the Pope except unlike the Pope who in theory Catholics pay attention to The head of al-Azhar may as well be a rabbi which is to say nobody pays attention to him He has the authority in theory, but maybe not so much in practice So they signed this document in Abu Dhabi the document of human fraternity and there is the Crown Prince of Abu Dhabi Muhammad bin Zayed and the head of al-Azhar Ahmed al-Tayyab Now before I go further. I want to tell you that Ahmad al-Tayyab is also a wonderful Outreach dialogue or Ahmed al-Tayyab came to the Jewish theological Seminary He came to us so that we would know that the head of an Arab state of Egypt Wanted to have dialogue with the Jewish community. So this is a very big deal These two great leaders of Islam and Catholicism we're talking about leaders of Two to three billion people on the face of the earth are there. I just want to go back for a moment though because when Ahmed al-Tayyab was at JTS He was not yet the head of al-Azhar. There was a different sheikh then named Al-Tanthawi Al-Tanthawi came along as well. So there's one old man There's Ahmed al-Tayyab who I don't want to call an old man because he's my age very young man and Then they were babysat if you will by a woman who was the highest ranking diplomat in Egypt she was the Assistant foreign minister for religion and culture Her name was Salama shocker and she made sure everybody got to where they were supposed to get to everything was Properly diplomatic and she was quite lovely and like any good Muslim woman She had a scarf to just be sure she could cover her hair just in case I couldn't help but notice the scarf was air may but all right, you know, you need a scarf You need a scarf may as well be a nice one Salama in New York says to me Burt's you know when you come to Egypt. I want to host you now What she didn't know this was in November was that my family and I had already planned a trip to Egypt in December So it was a funny moment because in New York City I don't know how many of you go into the city, but in New York City if somebody says let's do lunch That basically means they're never gonna see you again So here is Salama shocker. She's saying let's do lunch and I say to her well We will arrive in Cairo on December 19th, and she says tell me your hotel. I tell her the hotel She says I know it Well, my husband and I will pick you up at noon and sure enough at noon on that day their two cars come They pick up me my wife my two kids the two travel companions were with and they bring us to downtown Cairo Just off Tahrir Square if those of you remember the Muslim spring That's where all the riots took place But we were in one of the fancy places It's called the diplomats club and we walk in and there are literally Nubian waiters these tall black Africans in full tribal dress Wearing white gloves to serve us. I realized with horror That I neglected to mention to Salama shocker that I keep kosher and I knew that she would feed me food and that I wouldn't be able to eat it And it would be a horrible insult a diplomatic moment And I look at the spread and everything is vegetarian. She was that good at what she did So I was curious when her cell phone rang that she started jabbering away very quickly in Arabic way Quicker than I could keep track of because I know like three words And after about the really three four or five minutes of talking and I was starting to think it's kind of rude She can't see me this cell phone says it's for you like really I Get on the cell phone and in very broken English Ahmed Al Tayyab the same guy who's now the head of all Azar says Rabbi, you know, I really meant to show up for lunch with you. I really wanted to be there I wanted to pay my respects you had me in your house now. You're in our country, but something came up I had to go down to Luxor, so I promise you the next time you're in Egypt. I will host you I'm still waiting to go back to Egypt and collect and I'm fairly certain that if I reach out to him He will indeed host us. These are men of good will that's what you need to know there is enormous good will and That's why It's painful to me to have to catch a little and revert for a moment tonight to the dialogue of grievance regarding Fratelli Tutti When my kids were small and they had play dates I learned that if there was a play date with two children my child and somebody else things generally were okay But the minute there was a third kid You had the triangle problem two kids would play and they'd ice out the third child and the same is true in interreligious international dialogue when Muslims and Catholics are in dialogue The Jews are always a little nervous that we're beginning to get blamed for whatever is the problem and Indeed it made us nervous This was exacerbated by the fact that just last year in August of 21 The Pope was teaching About the Paul's epistle to the Galatians. Okay. He's Pope. He's teaching New Testament. That's kind of his job, right? But when he got to an interpretation of Paul it raised more than a few Jewish eyebrows Pope said and I'm quoting now the law however does not give life Jesus gives life the law does not give life now that's an old Supercessionist theology that Catholic doctrine Christian doctrine Jesus had come to replace the law the Torah Because Jesus gives life, but Jews don't have access to life unless we accept Christ and we didn't like hearing it way back When but we especially don't like hearing it since Vatican II because no strata that marvelous document of Vatican II refuted repudiated this doctrine Vatican II was very careful to say that the gifts and the promise of the Jews are eternal and That the law is to the Jews Selfific it brings salvation much as Christ does to Christians So it's very disturbing to hear this from the Pope who I know to be a friend of the Jews and It left me mystified and when I get to talking about Fratelli tutti, you'll see why I have a problem when Jews protested the chief rabbi of Israel wrote a letter and the head of what Ellen mentioned itch kick the International Jewish Committee for interreligious consultation, which is a group of Jews Representing the entirety of world Jewry and particularly to the Catholic Church itch kick started when After Vatican II the church quietly came to the leaders of a number of Jewish organizations and said, you know In the church there is a hierarchy We have one Pope He can't meet with every single Jew Would you please form a committee and so itch kick was formed and this is how now we presumably Represented of course every Jew still wants to meet with the Pope, but there's this committee and we have the opportunity when we're in Rome God willing I'll be in Rome at the end of June for Vatican consultations and again. We will meet with the Pope so The head of itch kick and the chief rabbi of Israel wrote letters of protest Now we wrote letters of protest according to Vatican II protocol According to no strata that document about the church's relations with other religions. There is a Organization which is called the church's Committee for relations with the Jews and his eminence Kurt Cardinal Koch is the head of that committee He's the president of the Commission When Kurt Koch who I know well got that letter these letters of protest. He was very dismissive He said the Torah is not devalued. You're misreading the document The Pope's comments. I'm quoting now should be considered within the overall framework of Paul's theology And he made it maybe a little worse by saying and besides there's no mention of modern Judaism in the Pope's comments If you can hear that just for a moment with Jewish ears Try You realize it's a very unsatisfactory response It in fact made things maybe a little worse because it really wasn't what we wanted to hear and Cardinal Koch was basically saying There you Jews go again. You're being hyper sensitive Last week when I was in dialogue with his eminence Wilton Cardinal Gregory. I asked him about the teaching of Galatians and Cardinal Gregory bless his sweetheart said I'm quoting him now Sometimes friends make mistakes There was a cardinal a prince of the church Criticizing the Pope he said of course the Pope is friends with the Jews He made an error So like wow Now that was a satisfying answer because I know that Cardinal Gregory is a friend to the Jewish community He by the way is in the US Conference of Catholic Bishop Cast with relations with the Jewish community and it's no accident that he is the first African-American Cardinal to be named a cardinal In the Jewish community we think of him as a mensha bubola. He's a doll He's just a wonderful wonderful human being but he gave us a very good answer Yes, the Pope taught what he taught, but he was just wrong He made a mistake and I can live with that Popes can make mistakes even rabbis can make mistakes. It happens now I can turn to Fratelli Tutti Fratelli Tutti is a long document It is by the way worth reading because it really outlines the Pope's hopes for Friendship between Catholics and Muslims and along the way Catholics and Jews but in paragraph 56 the Pope quotes something that I hope you all know well, which is the parable of the Good Samaritan I Want to share it with you Here's how it goes. This is from the Gospel of Luke Just then a lawyer stood up to test Jesus Lawyer the Greek is nomacos. It probably means a rabbi What must I do to inherit eternal life? Jesus said to him, what is written in the law? What do you read there? And he said you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart with all your soul with all your strength with all your might and You shall love your neighbor as yourself Those are indeed Jesus's notion of the two great commandments each time Jesus is quoting the Torah text The rabbi says to Jesus you've given the right answer do this and you will live But wanting to justify him to talk him a little more. He says to Jesus and who's my neighbor, right? Love your neighbor as yourself. Who's my neighbor and Jesus replied with the following story a Man was going from Jerusalem to Jericho and fell into the hands of robbers They mugged him they stripped him they beat him and they went away and left him half-dead Now by chance a priest a co-hane That means a priest in the Jerusalem temple was going down that road and when he saw that wounded man He passed to the other side So likewise a Levite who also serves in the temple when he came to that place and saw him He passed on the other side But a Samaritan while traveling Came near him and when he saw him he was moved with pity He went and bandaged his wounds. He poured oil and wine on them. He put him on his own animal brought him to an inn took care of him and The next day took out two dinari gave them to the innkeeper and said take care of him and when I come back I will repay you whatever you spend then Jesus says Which of these do you think was neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of the robber and The rabbi has to say the one who showed him mercy and Jesus says go now and do likewise. That's Luke chapter 10. I Want to say that in Jesus's time in the first century This was an inner Jewish Arguments Jesus was after all a Jew As was Paul as were the disciples and what Jesus did not like was the fact that the people who were By their virtue of their parentage charged with running the temple in Jerusalem that Out of their worry that they might become ritually unfit Rather than take care of a wounded man. They avoided him That's a critique of the leadership of the temple by other Jews Now let's listen to what Francis has to say Francis says in earlier Jewish tree. I'm quoting in earlier Jewish traditions. This is paragraph 59 for those of you That are following at home the imperative to love and care for others Appears to have been limited to relationships between members of the same nation The ancient commandment to love your neighbor as yourself refer to your fellow citizens Especially in the Judaism developed outside the land of Israel now. This is just wrong It's wrong morally and ethical and it's wrong as historic fact Historically Jews have always interpreted the command love your neighbor as yourself to mean your neighbor Whomever you live near it doesn't make a difference if they're a Jew or a non-Jew if they are your neighbor You are commanded to love them indeed just a few verses later The Torah makes explicit that your neighbor is the one who is not Jewish That's who we're commanded to love and there was no distinction between in the land of Israel or outside of the land of Israel So Pope Francis blesses sweetheart made a mistake, and it's a big one because he's now reading the parable of the good Samaritan as an indictment of Jews not just those who are serving in the temple And he's saying that Jews were very insular. We were clannish. We only took care of our own We didn't look out for others and I have to say with all due difference and when I see him I will say it as well Pope Francis You're wrong You're wrong as a matter of fact. You're wrong as a matter of interpretation. You're wrong as a matter of theology There are a number of other paragraphs where Pope Francis and I want to say this I believe inadvertently Gives offense to Jews, but that means that twice now first in 2020 with Fratelli Tutti And then in August of 2021 with his interpretation of Galatians Pope Francis has offended the Jewish community in ways that we normally associate with pre-Vedic and Jew Catholic anti-Semitism and That hurts it hurts me as a Jew, but it also hurts me as someone who loves Pope Francis and thinks that he is a great great religious leader So what went wrong? What went wrong? How is it that the Pope could make such an error? After having such a good track record as a friend of the Jewish community and not only that He did it in a homily and maybe worse in a papal encyclical So part of me is worried about the curia in Rome that somebody stuck this in and Pope Francis wasn't paying enough attention That's a possibility because as you may know Rome is a tough place and there are a lot of people who do not like the progressive attitudes of Pope Francis So if they can drag him back they may I also want to suggest something that I learned in the Talmud The Talmud refers to in Aramaic the term Gersa di Ancuta it means what you learned as a child and The Talmud says what you learned as a child is what sticks with you Why am I so sensitive to Jewish Catholic relations because I was a child before Vatican II and That means that as a child. I had the dubious experience of being called a Christ killer I had no idea what it meant But I knew it wasn't a compliment and since it followed by getting beaten up. I certainly knew it wasn't a compliment I live through that so I'm nervous that reflexively an 85 year old Pope just taught what he remembered that he had learned as a child Back when it was still okay to be disrespectful to the Jews and I want to reemphasize that through actions and Writing both before and since Pope Francis has demonstrated his loyalty to Vatican II to Nostra a Tate and to the Jewish community So I want to end with a prayer That as we move forward The Holy Father Will exercise more care Towards the sensitivities of Jesus and Paul's Jewish people especially we who listen with care and Work, it's our life's work to have good relations Between Jews and Catholics so that we might do the will of our father in heaven. Thank you Paul it's time for your rebuttal So thank you Rabbi busotsky for for those words. I have to think that the Pope himself would probably be listening and Smiling Riley and after all he's he's done things as a pope for the first time in many ways and I think He's certainly the first Pope I ever heard say in public. I am a sinner and I dare say that What you're talking about here, it's not it's not just he made a mistake He made a mistake that's a little bit more than a mistake. I he makes all sorts of mistakes, too some of which Might go back to the same thing you're saying might go back to the notion that what he learned as a child has stuck with him I think most women in the Catholic Church would consider that the Pope To say the least and the Pope to say the least has a blind spot He has done a lot to advance the place of women, especially in Rome But there are limits to the way in which he thinks about women that really reflect, you know a very Reflective fact that he's an old Argentinian gentleman. So What I thought I would do just a very few minutes is to just go stay with Stay with the parable of the Good Samaritan a little bit because I I think One of the problems With the parable of the Good Samaritan as it has been taught within Within the Christian tradition and certainly in my experience within the Catholic Christian tradition is That it's taught in a way that is Unreciprocal so if you think about the story as as the rabbi just read it to you There is a bleeding wounded man in a ditch and He's helped by a Samaritan and a Samaritan In Jesus's time was generally not a person was Greatly respected. He was a heretic of sorts to at least to orthodox Jews So he's picked out here in Jesus's story. This is a way of Saying to people not only that we have to be neighbors to everyone but that those Who help us might very well be people that we would not expect to be helped by The first way this story is preached is always about how we have to be like the Good Samaritan and help the person who is in need and there is in that the potential for a little bit of Christian hubris that you know even at our very best even as we try to be not Dismissive of other traditions. Nevertheless in that story We will see ourselves in the role of the provider of the do-gooder of Anna It's a good thing to do. Of course. It's a very good thing to help those who need help What I think we don't think about enough is that We might at while at times we are In the role the Samaritan played the provider We are also at times the wounded victim in need of help That's true for Christians. It's true for Muslims. It's true for Jews so that in this parable there is the seeds of a healthily reciprocal relationship between differing religious traditions There are times when it is our responsibility to care for others and There are times when it is our honor to be cared for by others that kind of understanding of the parable Might be something that you could suggest to Pope Francis when you see him. Thank you so much for your talk that's all I'm going to say and at this point then you in the in the room here or the many of you Online have an opportunity to raise a question for for Rabbi Vazotsky So let's let's start by asking if there's someone in the room Before we get there I do want to comment on on what you said because it strikes such a positive chord with me I believe you are correct that the parable of the good Samaritan teaches us that sometimes we need to be the Samaritan and Sometimes we are the victim who needs the attention But I want to nuance it a little further because I think we have to own the possibility That sometimes we're the priest and the Levite who walk a walk who walk away We have to own that I live in Manhattan And I cannot walk the mile and a quarter from my apartment to my seminary without seeing lots of Street people now what we call them the unhoused beggars the wounded the crazies The ones who frighten you or the ones who are covered with sores or sleeping on the street I Confess I do not know the calculus by which I give money to some and avoid others Why sometimes I will stop and talk with someone who's clearly just hungry for human conversation And other times almost literally cross the street So I have to own that too that sometimes I am the Samaritan Sometimes I am the needy one and I think you put your figure on something very powerful. It's hard to accept help That takes courage But I also have to say Sometimes I'm the guy that walks by so there really are three characters and each of those three characters is us Okay, there were lots of hands or have I elated them all The New Testament and I did fall in love with the Old Testament and and the Jewish teachings there that I had never learned as a Catholic that the great virtue of hospitality for Christians came through the example of Abraham when he was visited by those Restrangers who were the angels in disguise and I've always thought about that and I always feel kind of Built up when I can show hospitality to Anyone or everyone? It's a good feeling but that came after I learned about the meaning of hospitality through Abraham and Sarah cooking and and Invited them to spend time with them and this is unrelated but I used to work for a magazine in Manhattan for many years and Christmas time they always had at kind of a famous place a kind of a Christmas party afterwards, but I had a two-hour commute back home to my children So I very rarely went but one year I did because it wasn't it was two blocks from Grand Central or something So it didn't take a lot of time for me And I came out of this fancy restaurant where all the magazine People had gathered and we're partying away Big just before Christmas and it came out and almost directly in front of the doors Was a subway grate and there was a man lying on the grate directly And I saw him and I never had much money to spend in those days because I was raising my family But I had like three dollars and I walked past him It was maybe half a block and I turned around and I went back Because I remember reading that a priest had said one time whenever a beggar asked me for something I always give it and people say I'm a fool because he might be using it for liquor or whatever And priest said that's not my responsibility. You know my responsibility is To give when it's asked of me So I went back with my paltry three dollar bills That's all I had and he was lying on his left side towards the street on the grate and I saw he had a pocket outside pocket on his raggedy Jacket and I just folded those three bills up and I tucked him in his pocket as gently as I could and he immediately turned over and looked at me and I've never seen blue eyes so clear So full of love So it was an astounding blessing to me and at that moment and I I'll see it till I die There was no difference between him and me. We were exactly the same and Three bucks is nothing. He couldn't even buy a drink with that, but it impressed me that I Had had the experience maybe 10 or 12 years before hearing this priest say When a beggar asks for something you give it and leave The judgment up to God so I want to say bless you that that was a great a great blessing and It's still not clear to me hearing your story all these years later Whether it was a great blessing to greater blessing to you or to him But I do want to quote not just your priest but a very impressive first century rabbi Who said as you treat the least of them that is how you treat me? So good on you I also want to say just as a little commentary on the story of Abraham receiving visitors That my rabbi's comment that Abraham made a point of pitching his tent at a crossroads So he could see who was coming and prepare in advance and one other midrush one other commentary says and Abraham when he pitched his tent very unusually put the flaps on all four sides up so he could look north-south east-west and Never miss the opportunity to invite a guest into his home, and I want to give you that charge It's whatever you're if you're one of the Abrahamic religions you have Easter coming you have Ramadan. We have Passover Invite someone to your table who you might not normally have and It will change your celebration and your religious life So we have a question from the online The hundred or so people online. It's a very straight simple question. So it's a big one. Are you ready? How do we begin to dialogue about the question of covenant? I think the first thing we do is we begin to dialogue that is to say if you start with covenants That's climbing almost literally a very high mountain Start with friendship start with finding out what you share in common the dialogue that we had last night at st Joseph's seminary rabbinical students and priests talked about What made them decide to go on to the path to become clergy and Midway through the dialogue the rabbinical students It was like the penny drop for them is like, you know, we decided to go to rabbinical school You guys are gonna like you're taking a vow of celibacy Like oh my god Like now let's go back and start over and I think it's true with all dialogue that you start taking steps together And at a certain point you realize what the stakes are and then you may have to start over But you're starting over as friends and as friends you can talk about so what is the nature of the covenant and to whom is the covenant? Jews certainly we believe that we are covenant in a covenant relationship of God so much So the Jewish men say that the covenant is on my body I'm not gonna explain further If you don't know professor you manskey will explain it to you afterwards So What do I feel when a Christian the Catholic comes to me and says but I have a covenant with God as well and My response is yes, you do Of course you do God has covenant with all of humanity our creator created us to be in Relationship and if I love God therefore I must love my fellow human being and that means the non-Jew as well as the Jew And it means respecting the fact that if the church says that there is a covenant a covenant with the Gentiles Then I say amen Yes a question from here I have one of the students Any student here brave enough to ask a question? Oh, well Paul you're not a student but okay While he's asking his question the next question from this room should please be from someone under the age of 30 Somebody else then no you first but then them This is not to excuse the Pope, but I'm just in an effort to Understand what he did in those two instances. Do you think what he was really about was a critique within the church? you know in the sense of in the Galatians reference He's going after people he sees as his opponents who within perhaps the Curia or other parts of the church Who he feels are too legalistic in terms of how they interpret church law and put doctrine ahead of pastoral outreach for instance And that's something similar may be going on also You know perhaps in in his concern for the way in which Immigrants are treated or refugees are treated that he he is playing a little fast and loose as a kind of Way and I'm not saying this excuses it, but maybe explains what is going on in his his rhetorical Tactic in both instances. I appreciate what you're saying because the Pope is Incredibly well known and well deserved for his compassion. He cares about other people and Maybe he is sly enough and he has on occasion been that sly to use a homily to critique those people in the Curia that Perhaps he disagrees with and who he knows are coming after him That said I think he still might be guilty of not having Appreciated how his Jewish brothers and sisters would hear his interpretation I've read and I wish I could remember the the source of this quote that to love someone is To know what it is that hurts them and I want him to know that I want him to know that he says things that are hurtful And by and large and when I say by and large he's been Pope a while now and he was a cardinal archbishop for a long time before that He has been almost picture-perfect on his relations with the Jews So maybe I'm being unfair and I'm judging him for two statements out of a zillion On the other hand the rest of them are so loving and so Compassionate that I think I have a right to an expectation that he be careful when he teaches and not laps And even if you're right that he is giving an internal critique of his Churchman It's still stung us Okay, what about you young ins here You know you're all wearing shirts that have words on them So I'm just gonna call by by calling a word and then you'll be on the spot I want you to know that all those who are here from professor merits class. She's online and she's watching so Who'd like to get a little extra credit? Come on. I mean I was watching you guys really were awake I know you were listening. I see somebody rubbing his chin, which is usually an indication. He's about to ask a question Go ahead. I mean, let me ask you a question. Do you think? That my my quetch my complaint about the Pope is fair Or do you think I'm just like zeroing in on a couple of statements, and I'm hypersensitive No, I think it's fair. I get that what he said could be hurtful to you and He wasn't Careful with those two statements. So, you know Professor Lakeland alluded to this I have had the incredible privilege of meeting with the Pope a number of times And usually, you know, it's it's a very awkward meeting. He never remembers my name And I always remember who he is and you know, he's always the guy in white. I'm always the guy in black but If I have the opportunity let's say at the end of June to be in an audience with the Pope What can I say to him how do I say to him, you know, I've been following I listen carefully to everything you say And recently you said some things that what do I say? I mean you all encounter this when you're talking to your friends who talk smack And then you want to say to them don't do that, but you got to find a way that they can hear you I'm looking to the young ins. I Know you're a young and but I want I want I want some of the students first. Okay Any of you like you got advice for me? Please really I'm really serious. I need help to know how to Have my moment with the Pope and and let it have some impact By the way, there's no guarantee I'll have my moment with the Pope he may say not you Happens Okay, go for it Wait for the microphone because people online need to hear you So if I remember correctly back to my freshman year philosophy class, I believe it was a Buddhist idea of Giving someone the benefit of the doubt. Do you think there's any possible way that it could have been interpreted? differently or So that's kind of what I want and I think you're on to something right that I should give them I should give them the credit the benefit of the doubt, right? That and I think maybe that's what Cardinal Koch was after I know Cardinal Koch. We you know, we eat together We laugh together We've known each other for more than a decade and if he says there was no offense. Maybe I should really say Okay, there really was no offense, but I And I wish I could give Pope Francis benefit of the doubt but on my side of the argument and I hope I made it clear that I really love Francis, I think he's Just the most marvelous thing that's happened to the Jewish community in terms of somebody being Pope But you don't think he intended to offend. I don't think he intended to offend but inadvertent Offenses still yeah, sure and Maybe I'm higher hyper sensitive But I have two thousand years of disrespect and hatred that kind of lead me to that that kind of hypersensitivity And I'm from the Jewish community that engages in dialogue But you know knows the New Testament that has read what the Pope's written Imagine the rest of the Jewish world who are just prickly about it because maybe they should be so Benefit of the doubt is not a bad Path I'm using a Buddhist term a path the right but I'm being honest with you. I'm not sure I can walk it I wish I could I'm not sure I can and and it's for me. The stakes are very high because and Maybe I'm naive. I want the Pope to be pure. I want it to be as Catholic as the Pope, right? I Want him to not just be your pope. I want it to be my pope and I Kind of like what what Cardinal Gregory said is sometimes friends make mistakes Yeah, and if you give him the benefit of the doubt then it's not a teachable moment, right? Well, but one can say that friends do make mistakes and I can say I feel you are my friend And you are a friend to the Jewish people, but I also feel you made a mistake. Yes Wait for the microphone This is your moment. There's going to be 10,000 people online listening to you But don't be nervous So you were talking about what to say in your moment with the Pope I think to make it more meaningful if you if you lead with how he has been such a good friend to the Jewish community and Then follow it by saying how he has offended you just based off knowing I mean a little bit about who he is based off what he said is just following as a Catholic I think that'd be more meaningful to him just knowing that so start with the compliment lead with I know that you are a great friend to the Jews and I'm grateful for that That's good. I mean all in all so far really good advice really useful advice, and I'm grateful for it So expand in your head this moment And it doesn't have to be about how you read the Good Samaritan if you knew that you had Three minutes with Pope Francis What would you say? What would you ask him? What would you tell him? What would your prayer be and I will tell you this every single time I have met Pope Francis He ended with the following words rabbi pray for me Which is an awesome burden and a loving one so ask yourself. Oh, you are you ready? What are you gonna ask the Pope? Oh, we're gonna do a dialogue Or Dane women, huh? Okay, or Dane women and Can I guess that Pope Francis would say I wish I could No, yeah, let's give him the benefit of the doubt and he has moved women further than any Pope has And he's got a lot of theological and political issues I'm all in I I'm at a seminary that's been ordaining women for 40 40 years. Is that right Ellen is about 40 years It's 1985 85 so 15 and 22 is 37 years And I'm the first rabbi of the Egalitarian congregation where men and women counted equally women can lead prayer much as men could etc. Etc. I'm I'm I'm a card-carrying feminist But I'm also aware of How difficult it was for us with all the goodwill in the world to get to that point and how much both political and sometimes friendships broke over the issue and The Pope The Pope I think has to very carefully measure His political goodwill he can only do so much as Pope and if you want to watch him watch who he's Nominating and electing as cardinals Because they're gonna pick the next Pope and he's picking his people He's really trying to lay out the future so that his legacy will be preserved He's very canny and so that comes back to that gentleman who's I guess moved Who said that you know, maybe this is an internal critique so benefit of the doubt internal critique ordain women Anything else we're gonna say to the Pope? Yes Honest repartee you should say to Papa Francesco, which is the way I feel about him as I can tell you do too Exactly what you've said here tonight and Give him a chance to either say I'm sorry. You're right because he did that about something you said in Chile But that he's the first pope in 2000 years to say I'm sorry. I was wrong and fairness to you given the history of relations between Jews and Christians from 2000 years ago, I think you should tell him exactly what you've said here because that might help Jewry worldwide who's feeling the same thing you are I think that's important instruct We as Christians to be a little more sensitive So I'm assuming and maybe I'm wrong, but I'm assuming that most of the people in this room are Christian and likely Catholic So of you, how many of you have had the opportunity to be at a public mass in St. Peter's Square? Yes, you've been I was actually lucky enough to go with school On a trip to Italy and my teacher somehow got us Really good like a really good spot to watch it and it was really cool experience So I want to say I've been many times in Rome at the public the Wednesday mass and sometimes on the Sunday mass And we're talking about hundreds of thousands of people in St. Peter's Square chanting Papa Francisco Papa Francisco It's just it's amazing and then he gives his blessing at the end of his homily and For me as a Jew who has seen the priests in my synagogue give the priestly blessing so the Pope Will the bishops will come up and they'll name where their pilgrims are from we have pilgrims I've actually heard this from my own a college in New Rochelle and Everybody from the college is screaming and the Pope like zeros in And he locks in on them and gives his blessing I'm not a Catholic. I'm really not Catholic, but I have to tell you for me It's the closest I have ever come to understanding what it must have felt like when the priests in the temple 2,000 years ago beamed God's blessing through their fingers That's my esteem for this man because he has it and by the way Benedict the same I met Benedict He was much more warm and fuzzy than I had any right to expect everything led me to think he'd be this austere German Theologian and he was a doll. He was lovely and he had just come In like 99 degrees of heat. He was wearing a sombrero. I was just wearing a yamaka I got a terrible sunburn and just just Literally the lights beaming off of him So I'm gonna recommend a field trip for you guys I Think I think Fairfield University has to come up with the the cash and send you all to St. Peter's To just if nothing else just experience that it will it will really rev up your Catholic souls Yes, I want one from the iPad Yeah, we do hold on I Have 12 online, so we won't get to all of them, but See We how do you think Hegel you can do you know synthesis Antithesis thesis antithesis just give me just give me 15 seconds, and I'll do that But meantime, how do you think we can make up for young Catholics and Jews being Unaware of the prior tragic relationship between them well the first thing you can do is learn history I assume you're a sign that here And I assume you can watch it in the movies and it's not that long ago But you do need to know the tragic history of the relationship between our two people on the other hand How lovely it is that Catholics and Jews under the age say of 40 can think well, of course They're my friends isn't that how it it's always been I mean it's ignorant, but it's a great thought So you know bravo for that But I think we have to as educators get out there and teach and remind people of the history And it's complicated. We all have complicated relations at some point in your life You will look back on your life and realize that you've had very very important relations and boy Were they complicated, you know if I think about my ex-wife I have those kind of thoughts So and I do want to say my loving wife is here now and I this is the most important voice I listened to so thank you sandy for being here and sitting in the back, but You need to know your history, and it's not just Jewish history. It's not just we were persecuted it's you were the guys who were making the trouble and you need to know that that's part of your legacy and So that you don't commit the same Theological error You know, let me just jump in here Vis-a-vis what you just said with us tonight is my colleague and friend Dr. Patricia Barry Who has been teaching at Fairfield for a long time her course on the history of Christian anti-semitism? Patricia, maybe you could share with with bird and the students who are here What you have found to be most valuable about teaching this course A great question Well, I'm not Jewish, and I'm not Christian and I think what's been most Interesting to me is seeing students really engage with the with the issue and I think not coming from either of those traditions has been a help because I'm kind of a You know a neutral arbiter So I've watched students really grapple with the history of the Christian Church with regard to to its anti-semitism and They've done really really good work lately particularly in thinking about the Resonance of this in the very modern world in the contemporary world And looking at anti-semitism around the world today. I have not taught the course In a couple of years now. So I'll be curious when we confront, you know, most recent examples But there's been an upsurge of anti-semitic incidents And sometimes students know about those and sometimes they don't I had Students be quite surprised about Charlottesville For example to hear that they had to be introduced by me to the videotape which showed Marchers shouting Jews will not replace us They had they did not know that But they've been very very thoughtful and that's I've appreciated that I had a question actually, but can I comment first? Yeah I also want to say to to the Catholic kids in the room I'm old enough to remember when there was a virulent anti-Catholic feeling in this country when John F. Kennedy ran for president the Catholic Boy the Protestants came out swinging And it was ugly And you know you guys have been spared that And it's good that you've been spared that but you need to know that's part of the legacy of being here We have a long rich history of hatred And we have to do something about loving our neighbor. Okay now Yeah, my question actually relates to my course, which is um, I I have my own thoughts about it But I'm curious what your thoughts are about the letter that came out Under the supervision of John Paul II about the Shoah In which the whole first half of the letter looked at the history of Jewish Christian relations from His or his committee's point of view the second half looked specifically at the Holocaust And Christian activity during the Holocaust. So how did you judge that letter? So I need to give a little bit of background like most Jews Although I'm probably better at it than most Jews I don't know a whole lot about inside baseball in the church And I kind of knew that there was this letter, but I never read it before But as it happens this semester online, I'm obviously not in Rome Because of COVID I'm teaching a class at the Pontifical Gregorian University at Jesuit University And it's a dialogue course and I'm I'm co-teaching it with a priest And we're reading all of these letters And it's fascinating to see a Catholic grapple with the problem of the Holocaust Because on one hand, he knows that the Christian teaching of disdain For almost 2000 years Is partially responsible On the other hand, no one in their right mind wants to say that Nazism was a form of Christianity And by the way, I don't think any Jew wants to say that either It was, I mean Pope Benedict called it paganism It was one of the worst moments of humanity much like we're seeing Russians in Ukraine now So we experience hate and then we experience the fact that the church Can nevertheless be big enough to express regret That's huge As it happens in this class in this dialogue class We have a Confucian Chinese woman And we wait to hear her because she speaks as a neutral And she can say wow you Catholics and you Jews you guys are crazy Which is sometimes her comment and she's not entirely wrong But um your points is well taken the fact that a pope in a series of popes Since the second Vatican council in 1965 have grappled with the church's behavior towards the Jews Is profound and powerful and I think a Sign of the greatness of the catholic church but um that letter Strikes me as a kind of moment like your experience of the Good Samaritan and the and the reaction to Galatians and so forth in that the letter purports to Be a grappling with the Holocaust But when in its first half it looks at the history of christians and jews It does something very interesting rhetorically and I've used it I've had students that analyze it at the end of the semester use that letter and say how How did the church do on this did they get the history right or not? And um What it does is it's very very specific About circumstances in which there were christians who helped jews and very very general When it comes to cases of Of complicity right it also uses the passive voice, you know mistakes were made right? And and so it uses you know with not an I don't think in a conscious effort to being a various but in a In a way that you see the writers quite uncomfortable With facing up to the reality. I'm glad you brought this up and because it underscores what this gentleman over here said that Maybe we need to give the benefit of the doubt I happen to like timothy dolin my my local cardinal archbishop. I probably disagree with him politically on everything But I would have a beer with him in a heartbeat He's just a good guy and he's easy to be with and his love of his religion and his people is palpable And I think While we do need to know our history and while we do need to admit to the details We also need to find a way to move beyond the dialogue of grievance It's too easy to just catch And I know I did some of that tonight But I hope I've also done justice to the fact that pope francis and pope benedict before him and all the way back um have been Ordinary leaders of the church in that they have turned the church's teaching of disdain And disrespect for the jews Into not only something positive But to something that is not just leading to but has resulted in genuine friendship And you know, I think that's a good place for us to end on friendship and love We think so too. So thank you You want to say something I just really want to thank all of you who came out this evening thank those people who are Virtually with us as well and really thank rabbi vasatsky for being with us. Uh, this was really wonderful burden For somebody who just retired you don't sound as if you're just retired, but And before anyone gets up to leave one more. Thank you. So this is the 16th and last jewish christian Engagement lecture that ellen and I will do together because ellen is now retiring at the end of this year Yes, so this is my thank you for all of these events Thank you paul our friendship is going to continue long after i've retired, but after both of us have retired But again, thank you all for being with us