 tech, I'm Jay Fidel. We're going to do catching up on Kakaako this morning. And we're going to talk about community and what are the community considerations for catching up on Kakaako right now. And for this discussion, we have Capono, not Eli Eli, who is native Hawaiian, who is, let's see, a musician, a surfer, and a minister. Did I get that all right? Yeah. Yes, sir. You did. What would you like to add? Let people know who you are and what you're about. Well, I attended the University of Hawaii. I got a bachelor's degree in Hawaiian language and former hula dancer, professional musician, singer, songwriter, artist, now serving the Lord and still surfing at the Kuala Basin. Point panic, right? Point panic and across the channel as well. Okay. Great to have you on the show, Capono. Capono, Kakaako is the subject of our discussion. Can you tell us your familiarity? I mean, aside from surfing, how familiar are you with Kakaako Makai? You know, it's been something that I'm currently learning more and more about. I started surfing at the Kuala Basin Park, maybe back in early 2000s. And since then, I got involved with a group called the Friends of Kuala, just from conversations through conversations. And I was able to learn more about what they do in terms of that place and watching over that area and caring for that place. So I'm still learning about that area. I've also been trying to research what that place name is and what I've come up with is that area is actually referred to as Kewalo Kai. And it's Ahupua that actually goes all the way up the mountain. And so yeah, I'm still learning about the history of that place, but it is something that's very special to me as I've spent a lot of time there getting to know the people, also caring for that land, fighting for no parking leaders in the Kewalo Basin Park, parking lot, so that the park users can enjoy the free access, not having to park and pay money to enjoy the park and all of that stuff. But it's a special place. My kids go there. We have different family gatherings and the people there are just, you know, there's a lot of good people over there. And we want to just make sure that that area is something that the public can enjoy for a lifetime. Yeah, they're talking about the park at Ako Makai, which is the walkways. It's very beautiful. So, hey, it's a special area in more ways than one, though, because it's the only shoreline green area of its kind near the city. And effectively, it's backed and surrounded by these high rises. How do you feel about the park as a green area, a green area in a city of high rises? I absolutely love that. We can learn a lot from our history. We can also learn a lot from what took place in Waikiki. They spent millions of dollars trying to plant trees on Kuhio Avenue. And then it was too low. And so they had to spend more money to take out the trees because they were hanging too low. Trucks were hitting them. And the reason why I say that is if we look on Kalakawa, they also spent money to beautify a place that in its natural state is already beautiful. So when I look at Ako Makai and I look at Ako Park and I look at how much grass or greenery is available, there's the beauty. We don't need to change anything. We just need to care for that place. And it's what I call like a breath of fresh air to be able to have that, again, surrounded by buildings. And as we're surfing in that area, Ala Moana all the way to Kaka Ako side, as we've been surfing over the years, we've just we've had a front row seat to all of these high rises coming up. I mean, at one point, you could count over 20 cranes as these high rises started to come up. And so these spaces are important. I mean, it's good for your health. It's good to be able to get out and have that access to, like you said, that just fields and just nature outdoors. So it's really important that we care for that place and make sure that as much as we can that it stays that way. Yeah, you know, part of sense of place, I think, I'm interested in your thoughts about this, is that you can see the mountains and you can see the ocean. And right now, the way Kaka Ako Makai is at the park, you can see the mountains and you can see the ocean. And if you build large buildings there, you won't be able to see the mountains from many places in Kaka Ako Makai. And you won't be able to see the ocean from many places in Kaka Ako Makai. But how important is that? So you mentioned something, sense of place. And I'm going to kind of put that into a Native Hawaiian perspective. What I hear from different people saying different things about sense of place. Many times, I hear that in terms of something external, like, you know, the Hawaiians need to have a sense of place. For example, in the new legislation that's coming out in regards to OHA, some of the commercials they're putting out is for plan development called Hakuone, in which in their commercials they say, you know, we want to give Hawaiians a sense of place. And so that for me is really tricky because, you know, I really feel that we need to empower the Hawaiian community to have that sense of place right here. I am Hawaiian. I do not need something else to determine that for me. Whether or not, you know, like, oh, well, you know, if we have this place, then Hawaiians can feel more at home and we can have a sense of, you know, being and whatnot. No, I don't feel that personally to be true. I think we should do a better job as a Hawaiian community, empowering these, you know, the Hawaiian people to say, hey, man, you are Hawaiian, whatever you do, don't forget that. It's in your upbringing. It's in your bloodline. It's in the way you were raised. It's in the things that you were taught. So whether or not you live in a high rise or you live in a country, it doesn't make you any more or less. And sorry, if I'm kind of just going at it because, because, yeah, you know, the sense of place is kind of, it's a tricky, it's a tricky thing, you know, for me, the way I view it. And but, but I see what you're saying and back to, back to seeing having that, you know, this is a unique place because, like you mentioned, Maoka Tumakai, you know, that's, that's the example of Ahupua'a, where everything from the mountain to the sea is related. We're not all fishermen. We're not all farmers. We all have our role in our, our niche. And again, taking it back to community, we help each other to live and survive. And and so watching all these high rises, I mean, it's just, it's just sad. It's just really sad. And of course we know with the infrastructure of the sewer and, and all of that stuff here in Hawaii being really old and the more you pave streets, the more you make water raise when there's big, big rains. And that water has to go somewhere and it goes down into the ocean. And we see that firsthand when we have these sewage spills out in the water and this and that. So contamination, contamination, in places where we surf, yes. Yep. And also the ground, the ground contamination, especially in Kakaako. There's something that was brought to my attention about the contamination that's already sitting in the ground. So to develop in that area, that's a whole nother story. And I don't have, I'm not up on exactly all of that information to continue with that. But I do know that there is a contamination over there in the ground. So something else that needs to be addressed as well, moving forward. As I mean, the environmental issues. The environmental concerns. Yep. You know, I believe that even Kuala Basin used to be somewhat of a landfill. So I mean, that's, that's another concern once you start digging up. You know, that's something that we got to take a look at the cost and all of that. So the issue right now, Kaporo, is whether a particular bill should pass the legislature to allow, effectively allow, right now, the law, you know, prohibits residential and high rise development in Kakaako Makai. And there's a bill that OHA put in to reverse that and to allow them to do it. And they want to build a high rise. They want to they want to extend the height limit to 400 feet. That means 40 stories, 40 stories. And it means a condo right on the water. So if we, if we take all that into consideration, we compare that kind of condo to other condos elsewhere in the city, especially those close to the water, we're talking about multimillion dollar prices. You know, it's too early to say, but it's going to be multimillion dollars for every condo, every unit. My question, Kaporo, is, would you buy one of those? Would you live there? Would you have the money? You know, that's a great question. And the thing is, it's pitched towards affordable living. It's, I mean, how does OHA plan to make money for its beneficiaries putting out something that is affordable? And then even that is a loaded, when you say affordable housing, what is affordable housing? So that's, that's, yeah, that's something that to me, it doesn't, it doesn't make sense. And to answer your question, if I can afford that, no, I can't afford, I can't afford a million million dollars. But more importantly, if we look at the Hawaiian people, is, is that what the Hawaiian people, the people of Hawaii need? You know, the native Hawaiians, do they need to be in a high rise building? Is that, is that like, of top concern? Housing maybe? But again, another question, we have Hawaiian homes that should be providing housing for the Hawaiian people. So for OHA to get involved in, in the housing, it's just, I don't know, if there's some red flags, there's some concern there, because changing with this bill that's out, they want to change, as you stated, from 200 to 400 and then allow residential building on the Makai site of Alamwana Boulevard. Now, when they change that, if it should go through, then what that does is that doesn't just grant OHA the ability to build, it also opens up to any developer who wants to come in. And now, before you know it, that what we just talked about, that green, that place of where we can come as a family and just enjoy nature is going to be surrounded by buildings even closer. And then what we also know from history and from different areas of the island as they're developed, as we see when people develop. And then again, especially in the places that are more well off, what happens is the ocean access is restricted. Then there's a sense of entitlement to the area where, well, we paid this much money. And so, you know, we don't want, we don't want people accessing the ocean through this pathway. And then we've seen there's so many countless stories of gates growing up in easements, public easements through strict access to the waterfront. And I mean, again, if history could teach us something, it would teach us that those things happen all the time, they've been happening. And so that's something that as a board member of friends of the Kuala. You know, we want to keep this place for the public enjoyment, for the people of Hawaii, everybody to be able to come down to the waterfront and just enjoy themselves, bring their family and, you know, again, for the rest of their life as long as possible. Right on, Capono. So right, so many points you've made. So what about friends of Kuala? You guys made a plan or a suggestion for how development should go. Can you talk about that? Yeah, it's called, let me get this right here. Let me just pull this up. It's called the Marine Ocean Research Recreation Education Center, or as we call it, more, M-O-R-R-E. That's a great plan that was kind of devised by one of our members, along with a few other people. His name is Tom E. Y. He is the, he is a former, let me see here, I don't want to mess this up. He, Tom is E. Y. He is a former state of Hawaii aquatic biologist, specializing in aquaculture and natural resource development. He's also a board member of friends of Kuala. And they've come up with something that is very special. We've also, we've also started to look into some research in regards to the aquarium, the Waikiki Aquarium. We're looking into what they've done well and where, where we can improve on and trying to draw some similarities and then of course make something as what we're proposing maybe, maybe even better. So we see in the future that this would benefit education with schools and field trips. You know, I have three kids, so we're constantly going on field trips, but also educate the public, all the visitors. It's an opportunity to generate money, a steady stream of income, at the same time teaching people about the native fish, about all types of things regarding the ocean, water. We even have something in the works of trying to build a man made reef to start, you know, bringing fish back into that Kakaako area. And so basically what it is, it's somewhat of an aquarium, but an educational marine, again, marine, ocean, recreation. I should remember this, research, recreation, education center, you know, and so we have some renderings of it. And it should be up at friendsofkyoalo.org soon. So if anybody needs to go take a look at that, and we want to encourage you to do so and see what else, what other options there are to high rise to building high rises in that area. In any event, it would be low rise and there wouldn't be a residential component to what you're talking about, right? Correct, correct. Yeah, I mean, I can kind of go off on this subject in terms of the jobs that it would bring and keeping our local, our Hawaiian community here, offering jobs, opening up jobs, creating jobs. One thing I've heard from another friend that we have that we're working alongside with is Robert Richmond, who is the research professor and director at the University of Hawaii at Manoa, and he's the director of the Kewalo Marine Laboratory. So he's been able to, he's been a great asset to thinking and brainstorming and also providing helpful, extremely helpful information in order to develop something like this. So we're excited to be working with him on this project as well. Good, it all sounds positive, but so what is your view, your position on the OHOP project, the 400 foot development they want to do there, and the bill they have in a legislature to permit them to do it? What's your position, what's your, what would you say to people on what should be done here? So what it looks like is, and this is, this is my strictly, my opinion, from a Native Hawaiian standpoint, looking in, it seems as though they want to capitalize on the booming market in Kakaako, Makai, Kakaako, and so they want to, they're trying to generate funds for the beneficiaries or for the Hawaiian, Native Hawaiian community by building high rises that they can then turn around and sell. What I've learned in business is that if you have a steady stream of income that will outlast these big numbers as they come in, because once you spend it, that's it, so you have. So, you know, and then when I look at what would, how would those buildings benefit the Native Hawaiian community? Again, I mean, we're talking about, it comes down to numbers, who's going to be living in there? Because if they're trying to generate money, they're trying to generate money, then how are they going to offer affordable housing? And so I think really they're just, there's other options. There's other options to get the outcome that they're looking for. I believe what they're looking for is to generate funds in the long run to benefit their beneficiaries, which is Hawaiian people. So, yeah, so I'm not on board with that, with the building of residential, even for OHA. Yeah, I think there's a better way. Maybe you should run for the trustee position, what do you think? Oh, I don't know, I don't know, maybe people have been saying you're just another person that said something about that, but I'll let the Lord decide my steps. You said that this was your view, but you also said, and it seems to me that you are an active member, if you will, of the Native Hawaiian community, by virtue of your job in the ministry, by virtue of the people you know and the people you touch base with in the Kuala Organization. And so my question is, you talk to people, I know you do, because you're an affable, friendly sort of fellow, and you probably talk about this with them. And I want to know from your point of view, what others in your community, the Native Hawaiian community especially, what do they think of this project? What's the general consensus among the people you know? Wow, truthfully speaking, there's, I mean, and I don't believe that this is a secret, but there is divide amongst the Hawaiian community, you know. And so how do we close the divide? How do we close? How do we get people on the same page? How do we get people to, in any compromise, there's give and take? So how do we come to that point where we can understand, have a good understanding, grasp the concept or the knowledge of something so that we can come with our opposing views, but still come to a good outcome where we're both may have to, you know, again, coming back to give and take. And for me, I think it's really educating, it's educating the people. I know firsthand that when we dealt with this, because this bill was, we did the same thing with this, this bill that came through last year, again. And so the people on the OHA side, and again, even saying that it's more division, you know, I don't like to say that, but the people on the side of OHA, and the people who follow OHA, what happens is, and this is just in general with, I believe, this generation nowadays, and because of social media, we'll see something and we'll take that as fact, and we won't research or read up on anything. So when I speak to people, there's people who've read up on the bills, there's people who are engaged, who are searching answers, they'll have one thing to say, and then there's the people who, you know, and again, with this native Hawaiian, there's a lot of issues there. So there's a lot of people who are just flowing on emotion, flowing on, you know, like, well, they just want to decide what we as Hawaiians can do this and that. That's not necessarily the case if we look into what exactly is going on and leave our emotions as much as possible on the side so that we can think clearly and then come up with a good solution, then I think that'll put us in the best place. So to answer that question, I get, I have both sides. I have both sides and what I try to do when I speak to people is to just educate them on the side that they may be lacking. And me being in a native Hawaiian, I can, as much as possible, as much as I know, I can educate both sides. Again, not that I know everything, but what I do know, I'd like to share on both sides. So the sides who aren't Hawaiian, you know, I have a view that I can share with them and hopefully it's something of value. And then the Hawaiian side, I say, hey, man, well, you know, that's not accurate to what Friends of Kiwalo or what this development is standing for. And as a board member of Friends of Kiwalo, we're not against the development or the building residential. We just want to keep the Makai side of Alamo and of Boulevard open for public use and as green and free as possible without obstruction. So if there's other options where they can relocate, then awesome, we want to support that. But I hope that answers your question. It's kind of a roundabout, but I get both sides. Yeah. And the side you're on is the thoughtful education side rather than social media by whatever they're selling on social media. As much as possible. Yes. Like a porno, great to talk to you. I feel like I would join your church already. You're always welcome. Thank you so much for joining us today on Think Tech Hawaii. Thanks for having me. Aloha. Instagram and LinkedIn and donate to us at think.kawaii.com. Mahalo.