 Welcome to the Monday, March the 7th, 2022 meeting of the Montpelier Design and Review Committee. I will let members and staff, are you on there? I just had a big one. Oh, okay. So the people watching from home didn't just say they think the public would know. We'll let members and staff introduce themselves. Benjamin Cheen, member. Meredith Crandall, staff. Steve Everett, member. Martha Smersky, member. Ms. Pritchett, member. And we may see Eric, but at the moment he's not here. I will let Meredith review the remote meeting procedures and process. All right. Since all of our people on remotely are members, I try and keep this fairly brief. But this will help anybody who's watching via Orca understand how to get on the meeting. Here we go. All right. So for anyone that is viewing tonight's Design and Review Committee meeting via Orca Media, you can decide to participate in the meeting by getting on via the Zoom platform through either via or telephone access options. There's this website here that you can type into your browser. Or you can call into the meeting using this phone number and this meeting ID. If you're trying to do that and you're having problems, please email me at mcrandallatmontpelier-vt.org. My email address is also on the Planning Department website. And if you do log in via Orca Media, please know that turning on your video is optional. And we do ask that everybody to please keep your microphone on mute when you're not speaking to reduced background noise. If anybody does log in remotely, I will probably do a brief update rundown for them of some of the other Zoom procedures. If our only applicant tonight is here in person, and we don't have any members of the public on other than our DRC members, so I'm going to keep this really short. Again, please feel free to log on directly using the phone number and meeting ID option or this website. You can email me if you have any problems. I'm going to hand the meeting back over to Steve. Do I hear a motion from any of the members to approve the agenda? So moved. And I'll second it. This is Martha. All in favor of the agenda, speak your names. Ben. Steve. Martha. Okay. Unless anyone has anything else to add at the moment, we can go to the application for the evening 4-4 Langdon Street. Come on up. Ben Neal Spistro. Come up to the table. And just remember to try and speak into the microphone as closely as you can. And I tried to, you can move it maybe closer to the middle if you want. You don't really need to do that. That's there. So it's easier for you to see people who are on remotely versus transit. Go ahead and describe your amended application for us. The application is going to include hanging art on the river side of the building, as opposed to the front. And the new light fixtures. I believe that. Oh, and the. The menu, the menu board sign. On the front display case. Well, it doesn't really count as a sign for our sign regulations. But it's a menu board. So they can put your menu out and do the occasional flyers for events, but it's out. I'm sorry, I didn't get that. Is the menu board for actual in menu or for events? It will hold both the calendar, the monthly calendar for events and our menu. Okay. So free if anybody needs me to share any parts of the updated application. I can put those up. And as I was reading through the text, the decision. To remove the awning based on engineering. Yeah, I was a little remiss in speaking for her at the last meeting. She did want to get some estimates from. The plan. So the plan was to remove the lights and the windows. And as we suspected, it was just too much. We just got those last week. So that will be coming down. Like I. Yes. I'm just waiting for a little less icy weather to put the ladders up there. Yep. Yep. So, so the lights. Or this is proposed. The lights in front of the building. The conduit that's shown along the facade. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The lights are the lights already up. Yes, they are already already up. Yes. So. So the ones on the very front of the building. We're there for. The new ones that got put up are the ones just on the corner over the sign. And the next to those. So they were here before and got a permit. For. To get approved and said that they could put in solar pan solar lights there. And the solar lights didn't work. So they installed these other ones. Conduit. And are coming back now to get approval for those lights. I see. Thank you. Could you just put a picture up for us to just to refresh our memories? Of course. Thank you. And. So the conduit that was already there when we. Least the building is the same conduit that our electrician bought and used. To install the new lighting. I just didn't have a chance to paint it. The color of the building. Because of the time of year. So that will take place. To hide the conduit. Standing out. So this is some of the new conduit here. And it goes up and then goes behind the sign to get up to the lights. That's the existing. Yeah. This is existing conduit. To the lights on either side of the entryway door. It actually goes. And goes over the front. Yeah. Because there's a light over this window. I'll just scroll to that. So it stopped. Here. Right. Yeah. It stopped at this light and they've added this along with the lights. And then they've added this little black. Holders. Yeah. But they continued the same line of conduit there and then up. In here. But that'll all get painted once it's. Warm and dry. So they did these. Lights. I might. I'll need some. I may need some details in the bulbs you're putting in there. We'll have to go back and forth on which bulbs you put in. I know it calls for 60 watt. It doesn't tell me what lumens. So. We may go back and forth a little bit. Outside of here to get it within the right lumen allowance and the warm white. Yeah. So we'll just. Yeah. I don't think you gave me the info on the bulb. That info on the. On the. It seems as though the conduit maybe could be. That's visible if it were. Tucked up under the. Cap above the window there, the blue trim that projects out. Then it wouldn't be right across the front of that. Um. Facing piece in the window, but. I don't know. I mean the window, the conduit on the left is already there. So maybe it would be hard to move it up. I don't know. The whole light. Pardon me. Do you have to move the light itself? Uh-huh. The conduit. It's just kind of a shame that it just comes right across that trim piece. Um, instead of, you know, kind of being hidden along the edge. I liked. The other, I guess is why we decided to go with. The same plane as the other. We wanted to keep it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, I can understand that. Right though. It would have been nice if they had done that to begin with. What. Yeah. One other question about the, the artwork. Um, they were in the notes. They were, it was commenting that they would be hung with appropriate fasteners for minimal damage to the building. They're also undercover. Is that shark supposedly undercover as well? No, the cut, the, uh, the, uh, the deck railing, the bottom railing is totally exposed. So the, the dragon. And the, but you wouldn't have to fasten anything to the actual, you could wrap around the railing to keep it there versus, versus drill into it. No, I meant the, the shark and the picture is that undercover. So ice doesn't come down. Oh, the ice. Actually I was, the ice does not come down on the railing. The, that deck is, um, further over the river than the top deck and the Eve. So the icicles actually fall onto the decking, not the railing. Okay. And then notes said that the art is undercover, but the shark goes like it's out. Beyond the, yeah, that, that, I don't know why it says that. That's that whole deck railing is exposed. So, but the other two pieces will be undercover. The dragon and the squid. Yes. Squid. Squid. Yeah. No, that's an octopus. You're right. Yeah. I got in trouble. Squid on the inside. Whatever it's, it's our, you can call it whatever you like. It's the artist. Who is the artist? That's Aaron. And the pictures are not great. This was just kind of cut out. Put on. Well, the dragon. Mounted in a way that it might spin and move. Well, you know, I was wondering about maybe wrapping the dragon on the, around the metal bracing. Oh, huh. That knee brace. It could look coil. Yes. Instead of actually attached to the building. Yeah. What we were talking to Meredith about earlier was proposing maybe getting permission. To attach artwork on certain areas of that. Side of the building. Yeah. Anywhere that would make sense. The three pictures representing it right now, maybe. All that ever goes up there, but if we did want to put something else say under the deck. Is that, can we bring that picture up again? Is there. I just, I needed to. Yeah, yeah. Signing on. No, that's fine. I think there's even a better picture of the under deck. This is the one you're talking about. Yeah. But there's another picture that that's fine. Yeah. So basically any of the wall under top deck. So the first taught the top here. Yeah. So if you go under that. No, no under the, the, the actual bottom of the. Yes. There you go. There you go. Yeah. Right. Right. So. Yes. So that wall. The wall up the stairs and then the lower railing is really the only place that we would consider putting anything. The way it appears now that it looks like the shark is hanging over the river. Yeah. So the shark would be attached to that railing and it would appear. That's, that's the way it would look like it's. Hanging off of. Off of the railing. Does it jut out enough to be over the river? Yes, it is over there. It would be over the river. Hi, this is Eric. I just joined the meeting. I had trouble with zoom. Sorry. Yeah. The application is broken into two parts because of the. The first part is the art sculptures hanging from the building. And the two new railings. Are they are the railings shown in the. Continued application. Give me a second. I might be able to. Circulated to everybody before. Yeah. Here's a good picture. All right. Can people see this? Yeah. So there's the railings. Shorter handrails here and then the metal handrails. Here. Those are the railings and those were. Perfectly fine with the building inspector. And. When we looked at it before, I don't think anybody had any issues, but we just had, we had Ben and Steve and Eric. These are probably a little fresh for Liz and Martha. And Meredith, what is that that's on top of it? Is that the awning? That's not going to be. Correct. So that awning won't be there at all. Yeah, that won't be there at all. Okay. So right now it's discussion of the art and these railings. And I can also. Get a little somewhere in here we have that's what the shark, where the shark is hanging now, right? Yes. So that's, you can get a little sense of how far it sticks out from a wall. How big it is. Okay. And hold on. There's. The octopus now inside. Are there side handles? Yeah. I have, I'll show you why I had that many of them. And that's when it occurred to me, I've got enough to make eight tentacles. Yeah. And then that's where the dragon is now. No. Oh. You pulled it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it's going to go with the proposing to put it on the side of the building, but that just gives you a little up close look what it looks like. I'm not very heavy either. So it's. So yeah, the application is for artwork. And then the railings that I showed you on the front, but this first. And. So the, so I had to break it out into two different criteria sheets. So we had, I have pulled a different criteria sheet. Because lighting has its own criteria to look at. And so the lighting and the menu board are going to be another run through of criteria. If that's okay. It just seemed easier than making. One where some criteria applied and some didn't seem a little confusing. Otherwise. On the menu board. Did you consider putting it on this. Right under the bent nail sign rather than in the middle of the clap boarding. Do you mean on the blue trim? Exactly. Um. It may be a little large. It may. Stick out past. Yeah. And I mean, it's not a. I could make it so it only sticks out on one side. It just would not be even on the, on the trim board. If it is larger than the trim board. It is larger than the trim board. Seems to be a little. Yeah. It'd be close. Um, but yes, that's doable. It just, uh, we'd rather that than say a no to it all together. I just have some concern that this very historical building is getting very cluttered. I'll keep in mind everything was taken down off the front. So there is nothing left. On the front of the building. This, this would be the only thing and it's strictly business related. Uh, let me think if I've got. About one second, let me go to. You have the front from the old packet. Side. No, I don't think I have a. Wide view of the front. To show you. Um, Yeah. The front is going to have. The. Windows. Right. You've got the big windows. And this. And. The. Lighting in this sign. Yeah. And the lighting is over the sign. There is no lighting for this menu board. Um, no. Yeah. There's, I mean, there's a light here that was already approved before they had their business over this window lights on either side of the door and then another light over here. I'm not sure they can. Fit too many more lights on the building and meet our max. They'd have to start taking lights off, I think. I know, but. My point would be that if you put it under the bent nail sign, it would get the effect of the light without having to use another lighting fixture. Yeah. I'm sure that. There would be some light thrown on that sign. For sure. You thought of mounting. Could you thought of mounting the menu board underneath to the right side of the doorway under the light that's there. I. Again, it's too big. It's too big. I didn't. Ideally, we're out of a nice house. Sorry. This is making people dizzy. Uh, It's not the full. Well, I mean, that's not the full. I mean, that would. Yeah. It might fit. It won't fit there because I held it up. I know. Well, it may be slightly wider than the. The trim board here. But the casing on the outside of the door. It gives you additional width before you actually get to the doorway itself. Is it going to fit though between the railing and the. Light. Actually probably not. Yeah. Because I don't. This one does not show the railing. So I didn't know how much room. Yeah. This is the, here's the top of the railing and there's a light. I don't think it's going to fit in there. It could fit. It could go on the side of the railing. You know what I mean? Um, Then it would just be a matter of if there's enough room. Yeah. I'm not on the committee, but isn't that thing going to make people stop in the doorway to read it. And block the entry. It also is not very symmetrical. If you don't have something on the other side, but. I don't have a problem with the current location that you're proposing. And I also believe that it would get. Basically the same amount of light. From the light fixture above in its current location as it would, if you moved it two and a half feet over to the right. Is that the height? It's going to be modded at. Yeah. Roughly, you know, I, I level it may not be the exact inch. But. Head level, average head level. Sure. We have to be able to get in there pretty easily to change the calendar. So. Yeah. It might, I would say the top of it would probably be right where the flagpole holder is on the blue. If you can see that. So maybe down one. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Probably. How are you going to attach that? Um. Sign. Uh, or four wood screws on each. Each. Each. Each corner. So, so you won't be damaging the clavits at all. Other than just the size of the whole of the screw. Right. Okay. Thank you. So to that end, it would be, um, if you can move that screw to the thicker part of the clavits, so you're not going through the thin part of the clavits, it would be less likely to split that. Sure. And I can pre-drill. All that stuff. Yeah. The other thing you may want to use as a small spacer. Just to keep it away from the clavits or rain doesn't collect behind it and leave a lot of space. Great idea. Yeah. I have a question about the, um, hand railings. Are they installed already? Yeah. Just thinking of, you know, like a kind of modern looking considering the age of the building, but. Um, Well, that, uh, railing itself or actually handicap railings. Uh-huh. That was required. I'm not sure the required. Because I deem that stupid. Very dangerous. Uh-huh. I could sleep. Not a. Do any committee members have any other comments, questions or suggestions regarding the art sculptures. And the railings. I do this. There appears to be some sort of an art sculpture over the awning. Now I understand the awning is not going to be there anymore. Is that art sculpture still there? Nothing for art on the front of the building anymore. And. Won't be unless. You know, Something changes in your minds. That we're. Okay to do that. The awning. Um, Martha, the awning. That has the art sort of built into it. Um. Needs a building permit. And the, the, uh, Building inspector wasn't willing to. Provide that without, um, An engineer's. Okay. And outside engineer approving it. Um, so they're going to remove that. Which includes. The art on top of the awning. I've already taken the dragonfly off the top. That's gone. Yeah. So only the awning remains. Yep. And so the, And the awning will come down once the, The weather cooperates with that. Okay. If they want to put a different awning up, They'll need to work with Chris and our office again. Can I just say that in front of the, In front of the building, There are just the handrails. The handrails. The handrails. The handrails. The handrails. In front of the building, There are just the handrails. We'd like to have the display case. And then the conduit for the lights. That's all that's on the front. Yeah. And the lights. No, no art. Yeah. Yeah. No art at all. It's a one way street. Can't help but see it. When you were approaching the building from Langdon street. Anyway. The art. Oh yeah. On the right side, It's a one way street. If you're going down that street. Absolutely. That's why your suggestion of it hanging on that side. It makes total sense. And that's a lot of foot traffic comes from that side too. Yeah. But on your comment about the art on the front of the dragonflies. This is one of those reasons why I was hoping maybe we could approve more spaces on this side. I would like to hang the dragonfly. Yeah. Somewhere. Maybe under the deck. Behind say the octopus on that wall. But you know, as an artist, I get inspired and these, these ideas come into my head. Randomly. So it's hard to do this every time with those ideas. So it would just be nice to have an approval for. Any or all of the spaces on the side of this building that we're talking about. You know, I think it would be nice to have this new pieces come in old pieces come off. It would just save. A lot of time. Unfortunately, this is one of those things where our design regulations. Probably need some work for the public art idea of. Potentially approving, you know, locations for similarly sized art to be switched out with similar. In the way. If you keep adding too many things, then it becomes cluttered. And you don't want it to look. I mean, individual pieces are nice and. I think you could, you know, you could swap out pieces, but if you start adding too many more pieces than one, one of the issues in the criteria is. Is covering up architectural features of the building. If you have the piece of the three pieces now, it's fairly reasonable. If you start adding too many more pieces, you're going to start running into covering up. Features of the building itself, which are important in the neighborhood. I know it'd be nice to do that and understand why you want to do it, but I don't see how we can do. We can approve something that we don't really know what it is. We've always, you know, been pretty sure about what things are going to turn out to be. Yeah, my, my only comment on that is. And the picture is small, but right now you're looking at. Garbage cans and propane tanks. So. I just, I just would like anything to take your eye away from that in my mind would be a good thing. But you know, we get used to looking at things and we, we forget that it's actually an eyesore already. Figure out some creative thing to do with the garbage can't with propane tanks. That's why I'd like to hang things on that railing Eric, because that shark is actually much bigger than the picture looks like. And I would like it to be back further to actually hide most of the propane tanks. You wouldn't even see that. I think that would be great because that the, the shark does look small on the, on the. In this rendering. I think putting it down. On the. Right in there. Yep. Right where Meredith is pointing would be fine. I thought I would go and that's, I wasn't in touch with our graphic designer. She did this for us. I think it would be great. I think it would be great. Yeah. That's where I was imagining it going. We could give you a choice on that one. I would think. Now, what about anything under the deck over the, the propane tanks and the garbage cans. So in addition to the octopus, you mean. So the octopus is actually hanging from the upper deck, not on the walls. So the wall space under the deck is, it's still. I think it would be hard maybe. To see it. If you have. The octopus and the shark right there. Well, again, and they're not exactly. I'm pretty good at. Space. Making the space for pieces. And my, my artwork is very colorful. Some of it. So it would. I don't know if there's room underneath the bottom, you know, the, the first floor deck. Hanging over the river. For example, the dragonfly. Probably. In there. That's, that's what I'm thinking. Go. Specifically. Yeah. So that piece. I could attach to the wall itself. Yeah. Yep. So it would be flat against the wall, like a, like a fly on a wall kind of thing. Yes. Exactly. Would that not crowded too much by having the shark, the octopus and the. Dragonfly crammed into that one space. Well, again, if you can imagine the shark all the way to the end of the deck, hiding the propane tanks. The octopus is actually going to be turned over. The other way. The other way. And it could also be put further to the end of the deck. And then the dragonfly could actually live in the first. Yep. Right there. The first square. I might look really nice. Where you have the dragon. On the wall. Absolutely. And that's what I mean. So you can interchange certain pieces and put the dragon down below because the dragon. Is also very shiny and colorful in it. You would look at that before you looked at the garbage cans that it sits above. That's what I mean. I would just like to be able to interchange pieces, new pieces with old, if you approve certain areas. That would be the. Best case scenario for us. So sort of like a sign plan, but for art. So they have the same general. Sizes and locations. We also, we don't really, we don't have that in there. So it's. The only issue would be. They could, I'm not sure if there's a way they could get administrative approval for something they wanted to swap out that we haven't seen yet. Or yeah, I mean, that's the, would the, would the be needing to look at things or fast. I don't, I don't know. Well, but they, but they are how they're fast. And I mean, there are a lot of. And again, a lot of it has to do with the criteria. You know, there's a lot of compatibility issues with. The neighborhood. And then in adjacent properties, you know, there's a lot of compatibility issues with. The neighborhood and adjacent properties and, and again, it's hard to get blanket approval for just putting up anything. I mean, even the artwork that's, even though it's temporary artwork that it's gone on the buildings has come for approval. Well, Stephen. So just to blanket. We have this article that just came out. Art culture is an integral part of Montclair's identity. From signs, murals to sculptors art intertwines with Montclair's historical architecture. So I hear what you're saying, but there are people are already trying to tie the two together and make this work for Montclair. And so there's already precedent set. I mean, you know, we've got Charlie O's building with the giant metal things sticking out. You know, again, it's all relative. There's certain people that think that's beautiful. That's great. But there is one saying precedent and an argument to that. Yes. And, and, but it's not necessarily a blanket that you can hang anything you want. Sure. Coming for approval. That's what I'm saying. If you want to, if you want approval, not those four pieces and a balanced basis on that side of the building, that doesn't cover architectural features. That's fine. But I don't think we can get blanket approval for anything you've decided to come up with. That you want to hang up. I agree. Completely agree with you, Steve. Understand Montclair's is doing a lot of art things, but we've been very careful about where they're placed on the building. So they don't interfere with the interpretation of the building. I think one could argue that that's what's happening here that by sort of. Keeping all the art on one side of the building away from the front of the building and away from Elm Street and taking this facade and saying, okay, this is. Truthfully, a pretty ugly part of this building and make making an effort to sort of. Say, okay, great. This is a spot to be able to put up that art feels like a similar argument that. We are. Saying, okay, we've left all the other pieces of this building that are historical and important alone. But we're saying. This is a spot that. Can be actually. Made more attractive and better. Than not looking at the propane tanks looking at the garbage cans or looking at the compressors for the heat pumps that like. Sure, there's, there's some spaces for this. So. I guess I see it as. We are maintaining that sort of control over where this art is being placed. While also getting some flexibility to the artist who is. Kind of do his best for the nice building and trying to sort of meet our codes. So. That's, I see that argument a different way. I really, I really appreciate. Moving the art, the proposal to move the art around to this side of the building. I think that's it. That works really well. Right. And I think, you know, we have our. A lot. On the river side of buildings. In my failure. So I think it really ties in with that. The existing art that we have right now. On the other side of the bridge are those cables across with little flags on. Right. Right. And out of the cross or ever. There's that. Springy fingers. Device. That's it. Hangs out. Right. Right. In the river. And there's a device. That's it. Hangs out over the river. I don't know how to. What to call it. Yeah. I think that's fine. I think that is. Again. I don't have any issue with, you know, changing some stuff out, but again, if there is a way that we can condition it on administrative approval rather than to go through another whole process. To change the art out. Is that a possibility? I think that's, if that's, I think the committee can put that in as a condition. Okay. I think that's great. Oh, the great way to handle it. Okay. Yeah. That, that it's, it can, with administrative. Authorizing administrative review of switching out. So it's still be an administrative permit. Right. It's still be an administrative design review if you're putting. Switching out art pieces in the same general space. General size. Right. Similar, similar attachment. Yes. So again, we do we give. Approve the addition of the, of the. And whatever arrangement you want to make. Of the four pieces you have now, including the dragonfly. So that it doesn't cover up architectural features. Clap words and the lower railing are fine. But again, not covering up like window trim or corner boards. Maybe we could identify what we consider. The architectural features on this side, such as the window trim and the corner board. It's basically everything, but the clappers. And of course, architectural features, the, the poles. They are angled up that support the upper deck wouldn't be considered a historical architectural feature. So again, you're just not covering up. When to trim corner boards, when to trim or trim corner boards, but placing it like the, like the. Dragon here is just, there's clappers behind it. But again, if you, depending on how that's mounted, if it's spaced off the wall, I mean, as you go by it, you see the clappers behind it anyway. So I, uh, pertaining to that specifically, I could also spiral that. Dragon around one of those metal supports to not even be an issue. That would look very, look very cool in my opinion also. But again, that's either under the deck or. And again, that could be spiral around one of the metal posts, but not one of the. Corner right posts on the metal pieces on the deck itself. Yes. And again, the idea is to have the art there so that people see it. And again, hiding some of the utility stuff, but not again, not covering up any of the historical architectural components. Absolutely. And if, you know, whether it's me or some other zoning administrator is like, uh, I don't know. If they're not comfortable with it, then it would come back to DRC for specific items. But. So just to be clear, are we talking about the whole side of the building that is not architectural? Any of the clop board areas is pretty much up for grabs. Okay. I just want to. I think up to up to four pieces. Is that what you guys are talking about? Yes. Yeah. Up to four pieces. Okay. Others. We don't want to see 12 pieces there. I mean, you're covering up the whole side of the building. I think the idea is to have some art that you notice and compliments the building rather than the tracks. Okay, that's fair. Sure. Okay. I think that's doable. Well, it can be traded out. Sure. Any other comments, questions or suggestions regarding the sculptures. Uh, and the railings. I see no hands. Okay. So I have to go through the criteria. Um, I'm going to go through the criteria. Um, Number one, exterior design and materials of new construction or alterations of existing buildings should be consistent and compatible with the characteristics of the existing building or other properties in the district. Uh, the removal of historic materials or alteration of features and spaces that characterize as an historic property shall be avoided. construction techniques or examples of craftsmanship. They characterize an historic building, shall be preserved. There are no deteriorated features for this. So we can skip the rest of that. Any treatments that cause damage to historic materials, including but not limited to chemical or physical treatments such as sandblasting shall not be approved. So the railings and the artwork, given the other conditions that we talked about are acceptable. Existing buildings shall be recognized as a physical record of their time, place, and use. Any new development shall be differentiated from the old, but shall respect and be compatible with the massing size scale, architectural features, detailing, and overall character of the primary historic building and nearby historic properties. Acceptable. Alterations to buildings called for by public safety, accessibility, and fire codes shall be designed to maintain the character of the construction materials and features to the maximum extent feasible, acceptable. Architectural features, including but not limited to cornices, windows, shutters, fan lights, and tabulator, trim, and other forms of molding or character defining detailing prevailing on the existing building shall be considered in any alteration of a building. And again, with the placement, as we discussed of the art, so it doesn't cover any of the features other than the clapboards, is acceptable. Aren't they, they're allowed to cover the railings? No. The lower railings. Does the lower railing with the shark attached so that it's on the outside of the railing? Yep. And again, back behind, it's a trade-off and in the backside covering the tanks is a good trade-off. Yeah. So again, the approval is for the four pieces, current pieces of artwork. And again, in locations that don't cover character defining details of the building other than the clapboards and again, the railing for the shark in the back. And any changes, and again, would be subject to administrative approval. You don't have to go through this whole process again. I was gonna ask you what the difference is. I'm not exactly sure what that means. It would be a permit downstairs. We would just say, yep, you meet the designer of you. You run a car. Just send me a picture of... Bring a picture in and show up downstairs and find Meredith and... Okay. Do you wanna switch something out? As long as it's not too over the top, you're fine. It's all pretty similar, right? I mean, I do have some much bigger pieces, but I would never try to... Again, I'm sorry. I was gonna say a 12-foot elephant might not fit anywhere there. I think it's a penguin boat. Yeah, I have a 14-foot aluminum boat that actually stands up and it looks like a giant penguin. So that I probably wouldn't... I wouldn't try so much. I promise. Only things that make sense. And based on those conditions, do I hear a vote from the members? All in favor, say Subikir names. Ben. Liz. This is Martha. I'm a hesitant, okay. What did she say? She's a hesitant, okay. Is Eric still there? Yeah, Eric. What do you say on the art and the railing? You're muted, Eric. One thing I think it came up just in the conversation about the scale and size ought to be put in whatever the administrative approval part. Okay, now that we can add that. Yep, I'm good with it, I think. Okay, and I say yes as well again with the conditions for any change out of the pieces other than the four that are currently on board. So that portion is approved. And we can go on to the second portion of the application, which is for the lights and the menu board. Does anyone have any comments, questions, or suggestions before we go through the criteria there? Well, I would still rather see the menu board on the side trim on the blue part of the painted area. On the corner board? Yeah. I would prefer that, but I'm good either way if it doesn't fit on the corner board. We can give them an option of putting it in either place unless there's a strong feeling about one place or the other. My only feeling is I don't want it to overhang the corner board. If it's too big for the corner board, I think it's gonna look kind of funny. Otherwise, I'm totally fine with it on the corner board. Is the signboard already made? The glass front purchase, yeah. I didn't get artistic with that, if that's what you mean. That was just a buy. I think it looks kind of crowded on the corner board myself. I don't mind it on the clavards as long as it doesn't do any damage to the clavards other than the screw holes. Actually, the color of the frame around it is more compatible with the clavards than it is the corner board. Anyway, the height of it, you probably should mount it so that, like you said, probably about a five foot height to the center. That's a fairly standard for readability. So five feet is somewhere right in here. That's all we need. Which is five, six, six. But it's also readable for somebody who's six, four. Right. Two, so that's a standard closet height for a closet, right, five feet. So from the center. You don't want somebody too short if it's high. You don't want somebody who's too short. It's straining to read it. Five feet from the ground. Yeah, so the center. And again, that's just a ballpark. It doesn't have to be exact. Any other comments regarding the lights and the new menu board? I'm sad about the conduit, but I don't believe it. I believe it predated their moves and I don't know what else to do about it. I'm not clear about the dates of the conduit. Is there anything clear about when the conduit for the lights over the windows were installed. And the other stretch of it that goes up the side of the building goes across and up the corner board. That's new. Yep. So from the, because you missed that part of the discussion, Eric. Yeah. Hold on one second. I'll do a quick gut time because there's nothing else. So this is existing old conduit stretches across and goes to this light. And these lights were already installed by the prior business owner. And maybe even before sweet Melissa's. It's not 100% clear from the permit record. And then this conduit was just added by the applicants at the same, so trying to continue the same line of the old stuff. And they'll be painting this all to match what's behind it once it gets warm enough again. I think the whole conduit installation is poor, but I don't have any problems with the addition. Yep. I think that's where Ben was at too. And I am happy to come up with something much more aesthetically pleasing to the eye artistically if you'd rather. I'm sure I can do a better job than just conduit, but that would be something, again, artistic on the front of the building. So you'd have to decide what you'd rather look at, I guess. Oh, a whole line of snakes, that would work. It doesn't even have to be animal related Eric. It could simply be abstract or whatever. Well, it could look like a ribbon blowing in the wind. I could make something really nice that doesn't really have any animal attachments. That's an option for sure. Well, happy to say. Well, the other thing to remember also is that painting an already painted surface doesn't come through design review. So you can always play with that idea. They're going to get painted. Yeah. I'm just not sure paint alone would cover what you are unhappy about. You work it into something else on the building. But then you've already got everything painted. So in a way that I will blend in much better. It will blend in much better. Well, not the new part so much, but the old part is just a sloppy installation to begin with. That's even worse. This at least is straight. Well, you need a nice bend there and the bend from the light to up above from right in there is just like you had an extension cord or something. Yeah, I mean, I think they should have tucked it underneath the window hoods or the painted hood. What about this? Meredith just gave me an idea. What if I make it look like vines? I could paint, binary and flowers, make it look like it's supposed to be like that, Eric. You know, kind of like a vine doesn't have right form. Blooming flowers, vines and leaves. Give it some thought, let me know. I think anything you add to it is going to make it look even more obtrusive. Okay, that's fine. I agree with Steve. Yeah, we make it even more obvious. Okay, well, that's fine. I mean, in new construction or in a renovation, a thorough renovation, all that wiring would have been inside the walls, the exterior walls, and then you would have drilled through just for the box and the cover for the light and there wouldn't have been any of that showing, but. You were dealt a hand that was already there. In a building you don't know. Yes. So I think at this point, I think just painting it, I mean, you certainly notice the conduit when you get up close and looking at it at this angle, paint it in from a distance that might fade away a little bit. On the other side of the road, it's a little harder to notice when it's painting. Again, any other comments since there's not much we can do about the existing, pre-existing conduit? No. Okay, and again, a lot of it has to do with the fact that you inherited some of the installation. Exterior number one, again, exterior design and materials of new construction or alterations of existing buildings should be consistent and compatible with the characteristics of the existing building or other properties in the district. The removal of the start materials that's not applicable character defining features, finishes and construction techniques or examples of craftsmanship. The character as an historic building shall be preserved. And again, no deteriorated features. Any treatments that cause damage to start materials including the not limited chemical or physical treatments such as hand vicing are not approved. The application for the lighting and the menu board are acceptable. Existing buildings shall be recognized as a physical record of their time, place and use. Any new developments shall be differentiated from the old but shall respect and be compatible with the massing size scale, architectural features detailing an overall character of the primary historic building and nearby historic properties. Again, acceptable. Architectural features including but not limited to cornices, windows, shutters, fan lights, and tabulator trim and other forms of molding or character defining detailing prevailing on the existing building shall be considered in the alteration of a building. That's acceptable. Outdoor lighting fixtures, the structural design of outdoor lighting fixtures shall be compatible with the architectural design and function of the building and compatible with the neighborhood. Acceptable. All in favor of the applications. Speak your names. When I say something, Steve, I think there ought to be a note that the reason we're accepting that conduit is because it was of the prior installation. And we certainly don't want to match that workmanship. Yes. I think that was critical in my, you know, if the current applicant had put all that up, I would be voting no. We wouldn't have. He's writing now. What I'm thinking about when I make suggestions like this is precedent. If somebody comes in and they, well, they put that stuff on the outside of the building, you know, that got a permit. I don't want any more of it. And we've already seen that in other circumstances. Before we get too far away from it on the menu board, I'm persuaded by the argument that it would blend more to be near the clapboards because of the color of the frame. That is a persuasive point. Okay. So I can see it on the clapboarding area. We can just, I mean, accept that with the current application, which is for the proposed location. I have to make any, I mean, we just, That's fine with me. Seems to be the preferred location, again, based on compatibility of the trend. What's one of the things about this, the sculpture and the menu board are easily reversible. Yes. So that if somebody wants to put it back the way it was, that's fine. It's easy. It is. We said the acceptance of the conduit for the electrical lighting is based on the fact that there's precedent due to the existing conduit, which has been in place for years before the current addition of the new lights. Very good. Thank you, Steve. So again, everybody in favor, speak your names. Ben. Martha. Liz. And Steve. So it's approved. And I need to finish writing that one on. Okay. I can sign that. Okay. If you'd like. Yep. So we'll put your signatures on these. You have a pen? Yep. Okay. And Steve's going to be writing about that. Okay. And again, basically, and I was going to say that it's proof of the four current pieces spaced on the building. So again, it doesn't cover, according to the criteria, it doesn't cover any of the architectural features. And then again, any changes can be administratively approved just by walking into the office with a picture and proposal of patients. Is it? We can be excused. You can be excused. Thank you. Thank you all. Appreciate it. Thank you for coming back. Absolutely. And making the changes. I thank you. I apologize. Last time I was under the COVID cloud. So I wasn't feeling so well. So thank you for coming back. And good luck with your projects as spring weather comes around. And hopefully things get busy again. Well, a couple of weeks. Now is there still the exterior glass? There is. I left them in for the insulating property. Oh, okay. I was wondering. Now I would actually like to try to take them out and store them somewhere so we can put them back and store them in. You guys aren't going to need to take them out. We don't have the suction cups to hold on to. We don't have the suction cups to hold on to. Thank you. Good luck. Anybody had a chance to look at the meeting minutes from February 22nd? Yeah. I'll make a motion to accept them the way they are. Was that a second? Yes. Liz. Okay. All in favor of the minutes to speak your names. Martha. Liz. Ben. Eric Staines because he wasn't there. And Steve. So the minutes are approved by four votes. Does anyone have anything else to add at this point? Nope. Then do I hear a motion to adjourn? So moved. And I'll second it. This is Martha. Okay. All in favor, speak your names. Eric. Martha. Liz. Ben and Steve. Meeting is adjourned.