 Hi, so first of all just to let you know so I'm not tindering here, but my printer was broken So my notes are actually in my phone. So Okay, so let's get started. So basically the the whole panel is about entrepreneurship today and So first I would like to do a little bit of a you know kind of a questionnaire here for the audience So actually how many of you guys hands hands up are you know currently entrepreneurs? Okay, what a few and how about how many are you are working in startups? Okay, a little bit more than that. Okay, and who is actually looking at or you know interested in starting a starting a business Okay seems pretty good. Yeah, so um So let's get cracking. So we have about 30 minutes and so we have full panelists and I'm let's just do a quick intro For each and every one. So actually I'm pretty excited to be in this panel and moderating this because I'm this is a Really really exciting. I mean everybody here is a trailblazer and in entrepreneurship, so basically let's start with a dr. Virginia Cha so Just a quick So she has been co-founder and CEO of multiple venture funded high-tech companies in Singapore and China with successful exits in both Nasdaq and Hong Kong stock exchange Currently adjunct professor at entrepreneurs at INSEAD and Virginia is an active researcher educator mentor and angel investor In Singapore's entrepreneurship ecosystem after 30 years at executive management in technology companies. Is that more or less? Summarize correctly Yeah, okay, so could you just like a quickly, you know share with the audience like you know What is kind of currently like what's your normal week week alike? Well, firstly that picture looks nothing like me Well, I decided recently to go authentic and let my hair go gray So but with streaks of purple just just to make it interesting. What's my typical week like? First of all, I want to share with you that I used to be a programmer many years ago. I have a computer science undergraduate degree Got that in the 1970s back in those days where There are very few women in the engineering school, so I was one of the few Maybe the only one or two, but I never noticed us. I was such a geek I didn't know they were you know men and women because I saw people as ones and zeros Anyway, the question is what do I do in a typical week so in a typical week I Meet with entrepreneurs either entrepreneurs who come to see me about the start of business or entrepreneurs were in the business and Want to get some advice because really lonely to be an entrepreneur. I You know, you saw these media reports about how glamorous it is to be an entrepreneur Well, that's totally not true. So if you want to Want to have a glamorous life or make lots of money be a banker. All right So That's that's how I spend my typical week and I also teach I If I recently I just finished teaching a class in a module at insiat What was very interesting for you? We partner the MBA students with coders programmers so that they can come together and learn to build a a solution to a problem together in the span of about two weeks and the amazing part of that is and This you should take note because when you're engineering train of your programmer, which I assume many of you in audience are You're trained differently. You are very left-brained. All right And and people process you differently because not only are you left-brained you're a woman And so people expect you not to be left-brained. Okay So you're gonna have to kind of deal with that kind of you know cognitive dissonance throughout life But it's okay. Look at me. I'm still standing or sitting actually but anyway, it was very interesting because When the MBAs and the programmers got together it wasn't all just learning about how to code and go to market it's also about learning how business-minded people MBAs and engineers Come together and be able to communicate So that you can build a solution that's technical technical in nature together and I think that skill and the ability to do that to cross communicate between business and Technical minds it's going to be an increasing important skill to have so I would encourage all of you in the audience who are Coding or learning to code to sort of also pay attention to developing that communication skill. Thank you and then Continuing there also the interaction. So then we have also so limiting rule and So you're actually a poster so you're kind of like a poster child and role model for interpreters here in Singapore because So you basically which is very interesting to me is that you actually studied philosophy, right? And then so then you went on to build and co-fund Zopim and then that was a global live chat is a global live chat You know Software-as-a-Service startup and that was acquired by Nasdaq listed Zendesk for over US 30 million in 2014 and then so So can you just share a little bit kind of like what happened? What what has been happening after that and and Basically, how's your normal week nowadays, right? It's hard to guess that I'm actually the person in the second picture I've put on a good I think 15 kg since then two years in the last two years Yeah, so I don't look like a poster girl. I definitely don't think that Yeah, like I totally don't look like a type But I guess I guess one thing good about being an entrepreneur is that You start seeing things very differently and even now in my current state what I'm doing right now I'm a mom and I see my kid as a new startup, right except that it's a startup that Doesn't really, you know only ends up in an acquisition that loses you money You have a you have a very solid launch date like nine months and it's out Kind of ish plus minus only one two days whereas in product launches sometimes can take like difference in a few months, right? So so yeah, this that's kind of what I'm working on right now I just gave birth so it is kind of a struggle And ironically before before I gave birth like just six months before I was giving a talk at a career women's Event and I think Virginia was there she could call my bluff Because what happened then I was I was highlighting to everyone, you know only 10% of all women in and in local Singapore direct Directorship our women and only like a quarter of women are people in parliament are women So like all of us should actually step up and enter the workforce even with a family But now when I have my own kid, I realize how hard it is Yes, I struggled for the first few months of a motherhood So yeah, I think to be honest. I definitely want to be going back to the startup scene again I think it's really exciting But yeah, right now. Yeah, this this kind of a taking out like 150% of my time Thank you. Thank you And then uh, then we have Anna hot unto and so she's the CEO and founder of the new savvy and director at Terra Capital a private investment firm So you have been nominated and selected for fortune most part for women conference in 2016 and 2015, right? Yeah, send friend. No. Yeah, and then so But you started in our banking and finance, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so like how is your how is your typical week or? So like what professor said when I was in school? All I wanted was to earn money because my family had some financial difficulties. So I Started in banking. I was in investment banking private equity and move on to wealth management. I was there for ten over years and and I was I was doing very well One of the top private bankers and one day I just decided that I was very unhappy I wanted to help others. I wanted to make an impact and I thought to myself what what can I do and The only way I thought was is true finance because that's the only thing I know So for ten over years even in school. I all I did was Release study finance and and when I came out I did I didn't start the new so the new survey is an online platform for women We focus on financial and career education It's all free online resource. I Started it not as a business. I started it because I feel that you know, there are others in my situation I felt that financial education is lacking in Singapore in Asia and there was no media There was no resource available for women to focus on their finances because if you look at finance media, it's either Bloomberg Yahoo finance Reuters or you have Financial blocks that are very technical. So they tell you how to analyze the stocks, you know How do you do the valuation or the the last one is the scummy clam that they tell you You know, I sit down at my house and I earn 100,000 in 10 days So, yeah, there was nothing that speaks to women and I think women look at finances very differently from men I'm sorry. There are a few men here, but men tend to be Very overconfident so they treat a lot and they spend a lot of their time if you ask a band What what kind of return they want out of their investments? And I see two of you there a lot of men will tell you 20% if you ask a woman what kind of return she wants It will be about 6 to 12% so so that's why I started it it grew and from then I got involved in In the fintech association So I hate the women in fintech and partnership committee The idea was to actually raise awareness and to promote the women in fintech because Again women in tech is very underrepresented women in finance is very very underrepresented And the represented and women in fintech is the worst like there's only 12% of women in fintech. So that was where it was started. Yeah Thank you and some good data points there so and then we have Anne Marie Drost and So, so she's a director at entrepreneur first Which is the world's leading company builder And so you invest in top technical individuals to help them build world-class deep technology startups from scratch in And first you were in London now in Singapore and you had the first cohort art out this year No, yeah, and our interesting thing also. I have to mention that you actually you opened up this travel Business in North Korea, which is interesting point So how's your typical week? Well, given the recent North Korea news. I'm very glad I just decided to look slightly diversify my career Um, no, you're right though. I So my background is in physics So I was also very technically trained and then I graduated and went into finance because that's what sellouts do, right? I last up for seven months until I decided this is absolutely terrible I quit and I started a travel agency to North Korea Which was not necessarily the world's most informed to decision or best idea My day job at the moment is probably got the best job in the world I work as an investor, so I give money to people who want to start startups but a slightly unusual investor so in Singapore I run this company called entrepreneur first and Effectively what we do unlike other investors is that we invest in individuals Before they have teams and before they have ideas That sounds kind of crazy because yes We literally pay you a salary to sit in a room and think of things that you might want to start But by now we've done this with over 500 people We've built more than a hundred companies the portfolio is worth a billion. We've done loads of exits So the model works and I think The trick to making the model work is two things one is the quality of the individuals you invest in by now we can get like Effectively whomever we want so think of me almost as a headhunter That's interesting because that means I can actively headhunt for women. I'll go back to that in a bit second reason why it works is because the type of individuals that we take so we work with Nearly just technical individuals About 50% of the people I worked with in Singapore over the past year has a PhD in either computer science or engineering That means that the type of companies that we build are more Defensible because of the technology that they're built on they're necessarily the market. They were operating It's not entirely true and broadly speaking we do very little like apps or market places or E-commerce things and we do a ton of like machine learning artificial intelligence space quantum And that creates a whole new class of companies especially in this region So yeah, so actually that going to that so I have a question for you Which is that you know because you work, you know as a director there and as an investor, right? And you mainly focus on technically or scientifically talented individuals and you basically build companies around them, right? so the thing is like so For this audience so what kind of characteristics or patterns you look for in successful potential founders and How could this relate as an advice to the audience members looking to start a career in tech? Yeah, I think there's roughly two things that we look for and one is Do you want to do this as in the only way to start a company is to actually start a company and I think The easiest way to find out if you're a founder or not is whether or not you are willing to like make the sacrifices that I needed to do That isn't I'm not gonna lie. It's not like a fun job. It's not I know I heard it before going to finance if you think that you want to get really rich as in there has to be Something in you that says this is not enough and I want to have like a bigger lever on whatever the world Is going to in the next 50 years that makes you get up at 2 a.m. And do the last Bug I was gonna swear and I didn't And the second thing we look for is at this thing called edge and an edge basically means competitive advantage So we don't select you on your ideas, but we do select you on the stuff that you've done in the past as in hearing you say, oh yeah, I had to start a FinTech or Financial services related company because that was all I've been doing for the past ten years almost as an excuse We would specifically look for that as in one of the most common things that we see a F is Once we select what we call a cohort, which is about a hundred people We have all these amazing people who have say whatever a PhD in computer vision And then when you ask them, oh, what do you want to do? They'll say I think I really want to start a food delivery company and I'm obviously not trying to pretend that there's no great food delivery companies because there is But if you've never worked in that field, then you're probably unaware of whatever the problems in that field might maybe And a it seems like a great idea because you're unaware of what might go wrong But to the things that you have actually worked on seem really daunting and hard because you know exactly Where the pain points are that's where it gets interesting. So we look for people who want to work on what they know Okay, thanks. And so and continuing with that is actually I would like to transfer the mic to To talk about So to talk about basically that Your experience with zoping right because so the thing is that like hard work is a prerequisite of success, right? And you know, you also need luck as well But you know So the timing has to be right, you know, all the stars have to be aligned, you know in order to succeed and like especially when you build a You know successful exit, but so What kind of like You know, you deciding and like making a change in direction you're taking during this during this time in this process So where did you go right? You know during your trip, where did you go wrong? And you know, are there some you know moments there and like how to know when it's time to quit The grid or to just pivot so basically like how do you know that you're kind of like in the right path as an entrepreneur, okay So, you know quitting and pivoting I like two different things. So let's talk about quitting The fact that I'm sitting here means that I didn't quit but to be honest, there were a lot of challenges and There were times where I just you know, I felt like quitting right? It's a real thought that crosses your mind And these are really down times. So take for example Every half a year when we were much smaller team the founders will sit together In a like marathon review session We're like lock each other up in the room for like 16 hours straight and we'll give each other like feedback on how we're doing And I remember there was like this very specific session when My founders just came up and say like hey, you know, I don't think you're pulling your weight You know, you're not doing all these viral campaigns and at the time it do it You talk about viral or talk about like Twitter campaigns that can generate like a million followers overnight And you're like you're not doing any of that, you know, and Honestly at that time You just feel at those times you just feel like you're not good enough, you know, you're never good enough that you suck And and that kind of feeling is is huge when you think about that specific Part of the business really, you know, it's a part of business that depends on you, right? So Yeah, I Would say that it wasn't easy for me but quitting was an option on the table so I Mean at the time at the point in time I thought to myself right if I really I really quit and Took the easy way out the next time I have another obstacle coming my way you know quitting would be like the default option and It would be a vicious cycle Constantly reinforcing myself that I was never good enough that I could never rise above these challenges So I decided to kind of take a slightly different approach Instead of thinking that I wasn't good enough I think it at the feedback was directed more at my work than myself personally and I kind of moved on from that So luckily this was the only session that I had when I felt really bad And I just want to say that If you don't allow yourself to quit and if you're always on the last frontier and you always allow yourself Do not think of this feedback as being directed personally At yourself, but I ate your work It would be a lot easier to deal with I Pivoting wise I think Zopin pivoted like a few times and Is it like a single thing that just happens usually there's a series of events that lead to it and for us It started with this sudden moment into it right Back then we were we were young was this for more fry no one knew about us for some roadshow trying to sell our services and This big global bank came out to us and they were like hey, you know yourselves cool I really want to use to use you guys so that was like a super big deal for us cause they were one of our first customers And we just you know went full steam into that project So one thing led to another and things got really painful real quick Like we were cloud-based solution and they wanted us to host our stuff in the service. Okay, so we did that There were a lot of mumbo jumbo to do right and it got to a point that it was so painful because We would have to kind of write Linux email Linux Comments to their service team and they were like, you know, they will be based in India So they would only come back to us the next day with all the Error locks and then we had to kind of like okay troubleshoot and found out what's happening. So like that whole process was just so so tedious that We were like, this is just not gonna work I think at the end of the day your customers can give you feedback, you know Your data can tell you some stuff about, you know, how your business is doing, you know But really Instinctively there's this feeling that's deep down inside you that says like shit, you know, this is not gonna work You just have to pivot. So yeah, so That happened for us and we never look back. We never we never serve big corporates from then on We only went after small minimum enterprises just went online and scaled the business. So yeah, that's pivoting for us And just like a small follow-up question there. So once you actually, you know exited And the company was acquired. What was there? What was the feeling then? Just in few words Yeah, is it relief or is it kind of like, oh, no What did I do? There wasn't like a single feeling when we knew that we were a Potential acquisition target that it wasn't an excitement. I hope we're gonna make millions of months millions of dollars But it was more of like, are we really gonna sell the company? We spent eight, nine years of our lives building this The company is doing really great These other companies equally great too, if not better They had they can articulate the vision that we had in our heads They could put it in really nice PowerPoint slides and sell it really well Like whoa, you know, we're all of a single mind except that you can you know I think they were like a thousand men team and and they were already making a lot more money than us I Would say I would say excitement wasn't the word to describe it until like Three four months later, you know, when we really see that the company could jive and work together because acquisition itself is It's a really tricky thing because they're really trying to figure each other out You know, you don't know each other or trying to figure each other out And you're trying to find out what's gonna happen from then on and you really don't know So if there's a word for it, I would say it's Intense because that's really the the three month We know we took three months. It took us just three months to get acquired. So it was a really intense journey And then we go to Virginia who is also you have been going through many exits and you know many companies along the way and So basically you've been a game for many years and seen both US and Asia's startup ecosystems So if we talk about say Singapore's startup ecosystem, we talk about, you know advice for the you know current or you know future entrepreneurs So like where do you yourself like? What do you think that has changed in these startup ecosystems over the years and Besides me besides the startup fever, I guess that we're kind of experiencing nowadays and the second thing is that like Where are the opportunities now or where are the opportunities in a few years? And what could I or should I do if I'd like to take advantage of it? That's a lot of topics. Let me see if I can remember in my forgetful Yeah, yeah, maybe we would break it down first. I need to share with you some funny stories about My so-called exits. Okay. I haven't talked to spoken about the story probably not publicly but My very first sign this is related to to be no woman and the CEO of a startup company So it's relevant to this audience. It also is relevant to the decades of change that has come about So I was an entrepreneur in 1995 in Singapore a tech entrepreneur one of the few software companies back then And we were venture invested and I still remember To this day that the lead venture capitalist who shall remain nameless He you know, he was brainstorming with me in one of the meetings, you know, because we were doing well We had revenue. We were growing and all those wonderful things And I was sort of a novice in this whole VC entrepreneur Relationship so I did not manage that relationship well whatsoever, but I remember this Conversation very vividly to this day. This was 20 something years ago We were in this meeting and we were talking about the growth of company how to scale it up how to take it to the next level because we were doing well and to go for a second round of funding third round of funding and He distinctly said to me and and I almost jumped out of my seat He said and we're gonna write we should raise a second round of funding and then we should get an American CEO And I saw by the way, I'm an American citizen So I said, excuse me. I'm American and he said to me. Oh, not you Virginia He and so he meant in other words. He didn't quite say it. He meant a white male American CEO Okay, this was 20 years ago. So 20 years ago. You can get away saying bogus things like this Okay, but not anymore Today if you were to say something like that You know, you you'll get the whole community come down on you But this happened literally 20 years ago, it was in you know, I was in the room and he actually said no No, not you Virginia dismissing So anyway, so I just thought I shared that story with you to illustrate How much has changed in the 20 years now? Granted we still don't have enough women in the startup community at the CEO level we have lots of us in the CxO in in the boardroom as co-founders, but really a CEO. There's still probably you can count them in in your You know two hands for the prominent startups in Singapore So we still got a ways to go but we've come a long ways in the ecosystem So that's to share with you that we made a lot of progress In terms of opportunities in the future and by the way And I really like what you said about the whole who you want to invest in with entrepreneur first Because that's just amazing investing in people. So Let me segue into that and tell you the next opportunity Firstly to encourage all of you and to tell you that if you are aspiring to be an entrepreneur in my world You've already ascending into what I call level three state of being okay, so I'm going to explain what that is Okay, there's to me. I've gotten very philosophical lately I've been reading a lot of Confucius and Lao Tzu and all that and I've come to this conclusion that We as humans are always in pursuit of something Okay, and level one human beings are the other people we don't want to be that's that in pursuit of hedonistic Desires and all that they're very selfish people all right that level two are most of us are there Okay in pursuit of happiness, okay, and the level three is what we call in pursuit of meaning in your life so entrepreneurs who are Not in pursuit of money. They just want to do something meaningful. They're already landing in in level three So kudos to all of you. All right. So now let's talk about me So back to your point to get PhDs and not everybody in the room is a PhD right and not everybody in the room can you know partner with a PhD to do some deep tech and solve You know cancer or or something with a magic potion. So what are you going to do as an entrepreneur? You you know you can code you can do cool technical things, but You know you don't have truly deep tech, right? So what I'm going to advise you to do is practice some futuristic thinking In terms of looking at mega trends. Okay. I'm currently Driving for this when I'm I'm Helping with an incubator S. I am it's called platform II And what I'm going to do is pursue a what I call food track foo food stuff we eat And I think we there's a lot of opportunities in food for Singapore entrepreneurs, and I don't mean go open a restaurant That's really tough. Okay. Don't do don't go around. I don't want you to go out and run out open a Hockelsen or anything like that. Okay, but I think there's a lot of opportunities in food in Singapore that we haven't explored and food is one area that Technology cannot completely disrupt and we move we still got to eat Okay, but what we can do with technology is to add enhance its value so things like Well in the food retail space, there's a lot of delivery and all the interesting things But there's also the middle layer what I call food science that you can consider and then food Agritech and just because you're just your coding doesn't mean you can't add value there So, you know, I want to encourage you to think about these things. We have Moved on in our world to where we are very focused on health And well-being and nutrition Your health is directly correlated to the food you put in your body in case you didn't know that you just heard it Okay, so So and I think that realization is going to be far more Wide-spread as the years go by Particularly with the Animal protein and processed food. What does that mean to your body? So I would encourage you to look at opportunities in food as applied with using technology And it's kind of a white space right now in Singapore and we are a foodie nation So it's a good place to go. So that's the one area that I could suggest you go to Other areas would be other opportunities and mega trends that you may feel passionate about so I'll pause here Okay, thank you and so Then because we only have you know, not too long anymore. So just going to Anna and Just a quick question for you because you know, eventually, you know, we're talking about entrepreneurship But we also have a you know title in this panel We're just like business without gender. So and then I I love your t-shirt actually And I've seen many my friends and founders wearing that So could you just share a little bit about, you know, why you felt that you need to, you know, do this So the t-shirt, yeah, it's a female founder, but the female is slashed It's actually just a playful tongue-in-cheek You know, because every time you go to a panel people ask, how does it feel to be a female founder? Or people always ask why is this female CEO and and and the question is why must you put a female in front, right? Because when it's a male, you never say, hey, this is Mark Zuckerberg or Steve Jobs is a male CEO They're always called CEOs, but when it's a female then you always highlight that So a few of us were a few of the Some there are a few female entrepreneurship Groups and we use we hang out a lot And so this is one of the things that we used to joke about so we just made the t-shirt for fun Yeah, but I think in terms of female entrepreneurship. I I don't think that I mean people always ask Is it is there a difference? I don't think so. In fact, I think if you want me to be honest, I think I Find that women have a lot more advantageous than men So it's not I mean there are discrimination Right, there are times that it's harder being a female So when I pitch to VCs a lot of them, I mean it's very common and I'm sure you know some of you will find it They will always ask, you know, you're this well They never really specifically say that I'm old but you're like, okay You're already like I'm 32 so they always say you're really so I have met a guy who said you're really so old You know, you're going to be left on the shelf. You're over the hill. Are you sure you don't want to get married? No, I'm not joking. I wrote it on my Facebook two years ago. It's quite funny. Yeah Yeah, and then they will say like don't you want to have kids and I mean, yeah, so I Think most women will face this. Yeah, but I do believe my personal belief is that women have it There are a lot of advantages of being a female founder So I would say that, you know, if as an entrepreneur you use a lot of whatever resources you can to try to get your business or Ahead, right? I mean we didn't moral we didn't morally acceptable grounds So so for example if you ever need an advice, okay Like for me personally, I found it very really really hard because all I know is fine And so when I started this and I don't have as much experience as other penalties. I Was struggling. I was really struggling. I really didn't know what I was doing. I slept like four hours every day and I was just If you wanted to quit at one point I want to quit every single day So you you try to ask people who have been there and one thing I realized, okay So for for female it's so easy to ask for help, you know, because you go to LinkedIn and you approach let's say any business leaders and Because you're a female. I can Assure you that 70% of the time you will get the meeting if you ask somebody today You know, let's say I approach professor Ching or and Mary, right? They will most probably because you're a female you want to help each other but if and you approach a guy and Most probably the guy will also say yes It's true But if you are a male founder and you approach a female the first thing the female is going to say thing is like Okay, this is a bit weird. Why are you asking me out, right? And if a male asks another male It's also not as easy. So I always feel that they are being a female founder is actually much More advantageous. I mean, that's me and I'm an optimist at heart You want to comment on that? Our God, it makes my blood boil I think what I find a really helpful framework and which makes me feel less like a total imposter In who gave that girl that job? It's stats guys like Statistically we are so much less likely to even up end up in this room here today because our entire lives the entire society has been telling us to You know not study certain subjects, please Don't be ambitious be likable and nice and get married and people will love you for having girlfriends and wearing pink things and not wanting to change the world and Here you are and genuinely for me like as an investor But also when I like hire people and when I meet people in general like For women to stand up to everything that the world tells us you and me to not do what we do every day if you have a guy and a woman in a same like level position It probably means the woman is better as in to get there. She has to be I Find that's such a like powerful Realization so next time you interview candidates and they're like equally good you think but one is a woman That probably means the woman is better No, I'm serious And and that also means that like I find it really hard to not like Downplay the things that I do because it doesn't make me more Likeable when I say yeah, I did you know God's Cambridge and study physics and got a big job, and I'm fucking great at my job But you know what because that makes me like the arrogant weirds Dutch woman, but You know I am and I think it's really important for all of us here today that we start owning up to our achievements Because I think that's the first step in true equality I'm so happy to be in this panel anyway This is so much fun Okay, so we were running out of time. I'm unfortunately but one last question, right? Can I yes can okay? One small so very very yes small one. I promise It's gonna be so fast So what's the best and the worst thing about being an interpreter quickly if you could just like summarize in a few words? I think the best and worst at the same is the same thing you are always confronted with new experiences and Through those new experiences you learn a lot about yourself and That sometimes is scary and sometimes it's good so to me that's the embodiment of Entrepreneurship, there's nothing like entrepreneurship that forces you to truly understand who you really are until you walk through that journey and Confirm the thousands of decisions you have to make and the courage whether or not you have it to make it and whether or not you make the right ones and that's where you Sleep with yourself every night with the decisions you make and you really get to know yourself as the best and the worst rolled into one Wow, okay, they just blew me away. I Definitely agree. This is probably the best answer A more like but I think my answer is really casual it's really all about having lots of fun and Starting up really provides you with a whole level of fun that you can never get at work And I think that everyday enjoyment Is what keeps me going? Honestly and you will never get as much fun. Okay, you get so much fun that you sometimes might get heart attacks That's that's the truth of it The bad thing about being an entrepreneur is that you because you're constantly in this kind of reality distortion for you No one really understands what you're doing You will be very misunderstood by your closest friends your families who don't really know why you're doing this Maybe if they're not acquainted with the idea of entrepreneurship the teller just get a job, which is very discouraging so I Feel like being an entrepreneur you really need support and if you don't have that it really gets tough So yeah, that's probably the worst thing that can happen I think for me Sometimes I asked I work seven. I mean I work every day. So sometimes at 4 p.m. in my office where there's no air-con and Everyone's having fun. They saw fit all beside my office and they are having parties Asked myself. What kind of choices have I made in my life to end up here? And I mean I came from the banking wall and it's a very snazzy wall with a lot of money and Comforts, you know, we used to get go to all the nicest restaurants all paid for right and and now every time I go to event the first thing I do is to go to the food and no place Don't talk to me until I have eaten But I think so the worst part is always thinking of what snakes I think for me it is it's always like I Just feel like I'm failing every day and you learn to cope with that feeling of being a failure every day Because no matter what you do is just not good enough But the best thing about it is that despite having despite being on the other side of the fence where You know, I could buy anything I want I you know, we could afford anything I want and I never found something that I had now Which is a sense of purpose and I think for a lot of us money is very important for a lot of us Having a career and achieving is very important But the thing that make you jump up every single morning being Excited about your day is a sense of purpose of helping and making an impact to others So for me, that's the best thing. I think those are all great answers I think for me the hardest bit is that you can't like switch off as in I Think when I was at Galtman Even if I would like get home at whatever 2 a.m. At least then at 2 a.m. I could like go to bed and sleep And now I will like wake up at 2 a.m. I think oh my god. I have to oh my god So it's just like the relentlessness of how constant it was the best thing is I'm quite megalomaniac and I think sort of the amplitude of What you can do in the world will never be as big as when you are a founder is and if you Genuinely like think it's really fun and like get a lot of purpose from a certain thing I think starting a company is the way to do it Okay, thanks everybody and thank you. Thanks to the audience well Wow, thank you so much Virginia Chingru and Marie Anna and Jenny for an amazing conversation on stage Running a business sure isn't easy. Wow. Thank you for change sharing your honest thoughts and the challenges that you went through Oh, they're taking a selfie Challenges they went through in their journeys. I did see a lot of nodding heads in the room They are doing they're doing several takes different poses see if you can get your face in the crowd And I do hope that inspired you as much as it inspired me