 Okay, I think we are live everybody. So hello and welcome to get fossil fuels off the stage. We're so excited that you're here with us. This week has been challenging if you've been paying attention to the news about the climate crisis, especially in light of the most recent IPCC report that dropped on Monday. But we hope you are fired up like we are to make change in the field and push the fossil fuel industry to its knees. This event is being hosted by Groundwater Arts in partnership with HowlRound. We are here in the Zoom room and there are about 15 people here with us. And we are also live streaming on HowlRound TV and on Facebook Live. So hello to all of you who are joining us from wherever you are joining us. We're gonna take a moment to introduce ourselves. And while we do that, please go ahead and introduce yourself in the chat box using your name, pronouns and any land acknowledgement you'd like to give. And same goes for those who are joining us from Facebook, please go ahead and introduce yourself in the chat. And on HowlRound, if you're watching us on HowlRound, you're welcome to email us to introduce yourselves. Our email is groundwaterarts at gmail.com. And visualizing our access needs is a method of accountability. And I wanna take a moment to highlight, amplify and shout out Unsettling Dramaturgy, a colloquium of mad, Crip, disabled and indigenous dramaturgs across Turtle Island for modeling what you'll all witness us do momentarily. The link to the Unsettling Facebook page will be in the chat and in the comments as soon as we're able to put them there. So I'll go first to introduce myself. My name is Annalisa Diaz. I use she, her pronouns and I'm calling from the traditional lands of the Skadaway Nation, colonially known as Baltimore, Maryland by the waters of the Chesapeake Bay. These lands have also been cared for by the Susquehannock, Lenape, Lumbee and many indigenous nations who are still here today. As a visual description, I'm a brown skinned woman with long black hair. I am sitting in front of a background that is blue to gray gradient with the Groundwater Arts logo on the side. And at this moment, my access needs are met. I'm a co-founder of Groundwater Arts and tonight I will be serving as host and moderator when we get to the panel portion of the event. But for now, Tara, can I pass it to you? Sure thing. Hello, everybody. He's Jay, Tara Trochefkados. My name is Tara Moses. I'm a citizen civil nation of Oklahoma. I use she, her pronouns. I am calling in from the lands of the Muckleshoot. Sue, oh my gosh. Suquamish and Duwamish. These lands are currently known as Seattle, Washington area. My access needs are that today is very chaotic. As you can see, I'm moving in a vehicle. It's been a time anyway. So my camera will most likely be off. I will just be a voice in the void after this. Yes, I've also lost my voice after yelling that with children, with children for a camp the past two weeks. Told you all, we, Seattle, go over here. Anyway, other than that, my access needs are met. Oh, and also finally, we are teetering on a few bars of service. So if I do get kicked off the Zoom, I will come back if I can. A visual description is that I have very long, very dark, blue, black hair, brown skin. I'm wearing a yellow shirt and I'm sitting in a car. I don't know what kind of car, but it's very nice. The background that you'll see behind Annalisa and Anna is the Grammar of Arts logo. It says Grammar of Arts on Facebook as well as Instagram Twitter. Grammar of Arts at gmail.com and hashtag Green New Theater. I am also co-founder of Grammar of Arts and I directed the water song by Ugi Push that you all will see in a moment which is beautiful and great. Anyway, and when we get to the panel, I will try my best to borrow their questions from you all in the audience here in Zoom and on Facebook and in our email. So get your questions ready. I got you, but I also hope you got me in case I don't got you. Chaos, anyway. And with that, I will pass it over to Anna. Thanks, Tara. Hi, everyone. My name is Anna Lathrop. My pronouns are she, her, hers. I'm calling in from the Unsuited Lancelot Napa Nation, specifically the Nayak peoples, locally known as Bayridge Brooklyn. As a visual description, I'm a white woman with long, blonde hair wearing a red t-shirt sitting in front of the same virtual background that Annalisa and Tara have both described. I am a co-founder of Groundwater Arts and I'll also be serving today's Zoom slash tech steward for those of us here in the Zoom room. If there's any technical difficulties, you can DM me. Tara, I will be doing my best to support you. We do have captioning and ASL available and big thanks to everyone for helping make this event accessible. If you need any access support throughout the event, hit me up, let me know. I'm also going to offer a land acknowledgement on behalf of all of the tech we're using today. Zoom, the platform that we're using today and almost every other day, is headquartered in what is now called San Jose, California on the traditional lands of the Olone and Timmy and Peoples. And we acknowledge the lands that Zoom resides on because the work that we create together on the digital platform does not exist in an ether and some imaginary void, but is made possible because of the physical land and the indigenous people who steward it. Great, thank you, Anna. Before we dive in, Tara, do you want to do this next part or can I, should I pass this over back to Anna? Go ahead and pass it to Anna. Okay, great. So Anna, can you go ahead and give some context about groundwater and what to expect at this event? Yeah, I got you. So if you've never heard of groundwater arts, we shape, steward and see the adjust future through creative practice, consultation and community building. And for us, climate justice is defined as racial justice, economic justice and a decolonized future. We are a half indigenous, predominantly POC, fully woman-led citizen artist collective. And tonight, we are bringing you some of our creative practice and community building. In a moment, you'll see a performance of the Water Song by Ubi Push, featuring performances by an amazing group of indigenous actors. We love them all. Kenny Ramos, Jen Oliveris, Aaron Tripp and Cologne Studi. And then Annalisa, you and Tara are going to hopefully reflect very briefly on the play depending on Tara's chaotic car situation. And then finally, we're so honored to be joined by Nicole Salter, Brandon Michael Nays and Michael Francis for a panel on contract writers that are asking for divestment from fossil fuels as part of Groundwater's Divest to Invest campaign. Okay, thank you, Anna, for jumping in. And Anna, can I ask you to go ahead and press play on the video? And then Tara, we'll see what your car situation is doing, and hopefully I'll see you on the other side of the video. All right, I will play. Please let me know if something is not working. Nime-kisa-kimi-klesho-en-dimi-ko-kizho-en-dimi-ko. Speaking of terrible spills, remember when the BP oil spill happened in the Gulf of Mexico? Yeah, I remember just all of those birds covered in oil and dead fish. They had to wash all those birds off with dish soap. Dawn made a fucking mint. You know, I remember the commercials for that. They were really dramatic, and they had the fishermen, the fishermen talking about how they couldn't work because there was oil in the water. I mean, I thought for sure we'd all be dead by now, but, you know, they just keep digging and building pipelines. Like nothing happened even when we all know they break. That's what they do. Like, hello, we need clean water to live. That's it. Okay, I remember I had this vision. I just heard this voice. I was shown the water like a bird's eye view and I saw the oil spills. But this voice said, if everyone prays for the water, the water will be healed. But I just started praying for the water to be healed and then it became crystal clear. The sun sparkled on the water. Then there were all these shimmering rainbow colors of light reflecting off the water. Yeah, I think you told me about that. And it wasn't long after that, that's when I heard about Water Walk and that started, you know, 2011 it was right after the oil spill. Thank you. I remember those branmas each with a pail of water walking, walking from the fore directions, one from Thunder Bay, another from the Atlantic, the Gulf of Mexico and one from the Pacific. At Lake Michigan, they poured their water together and prayed with it and poured all that prayer back into the water. They poured that prayer back into the water. Shoot, they walked for three months at least. People began to join them and took turns carrying the pails. People donated money for hotel rooms and food breaks in certain communities along the way. I remember I went with my mom for one day when the pail was nearby. We were all told we had to be prayful while walking or running with the water. I was just scared I would spill the water but the water talked to me. The water sang to me. It was weird but I knew it was the water talking and singing as I ran with the pail. Let me know that everything was going to be okay. That I was going to be okay. Doreen Day and her grandson decided to sing to the water each day on the way to school. They sang to the water. They call it the water song. They call it the water song. I learned that Doreen Day song, the water song. They posted a YouTube video with the lyrics. They encouraged everybody to learn it. I started standing at the edge of the water wherever I am and sing that song to the water. I pray for healing. What even is that song? Which song is it? Hold up. I got it. Hold on. I got it somewhere. One time I was walking around this lake. I walked out onto the dock that went out over the waterways. It was a little cloudy that day, but it was nice. I was out on the lake and I started singing the water song. As soon as I was done, the clouds parted. The sun shone on my face. I looked at the water and it was shimmering with rainbow lights. Then an eagle flew over me. My first thought was, holy, not that sacred. Then I laughed because, yeah, I earned that sacred. Not that sacred. I am that sacred. Super sacred. Super sacred. Super sacred. Oh, no. OK, OK, OK. All right, fuck you all. All right. A couple years ago, a couple years ago, my family went on vacation in Haines. It's this little town in Southeast Alaska surrounded by two ocean inlets. We went hiking up the mountains. And on the way back down, we stopped at the beach. There was a pot of whale swimming by. So I started singing the water song to them. The whole time I was singing, they popped up out of the water and sprayed. When I was done singing, they went back underwater. I looked down and this giant turtle was peeking its head up at me from the water. I thought that too. Just sacred. The turtle went back in the water and swam away. Oh, I got it. Hold on one second. I got it. Got it. Nii peke sa kei go, ki ni kuechue ni ni go. Ki ni sa wei ni ni go. Thanks for sharing that song. I haven't heard that one. Must be an Anishinaabe thing because I didn't hear it standing rock. No, no, no. All right. I mean, that song really did something to me, though. Felt so healing. I get so much anxiety like everything is going downhill in the world. But doing this, just hearing your stories and hearing this song, it's like a much-needed pick me up, you know? I heard there are scientists who can clean oil from water. That's a thing. I wonder how they do that. I kind of wish I could do something more practical like that, but I'd rather we just stop using oil in the first place. I mean, it literally poisons the water and the earth, which is where our food comes from. And ki ni. Sorry, it just makes me so mad sometimes. And I don't even want to be mad right now. Wait. I think you could play that song again. I want to see something. Ni-gi-sa-gi-mi-glet-jo-i-gi-jo-i. Yeah, that's what I thought. Feels good. I think you could play it again. Ni-gi-sa-gi-mi-glet-jo-i. So much to everybody who brought that lovely, lovely play to us. Again, that was The Water Song by Ubi Push, featuring Kenny Ramos, Jen Oliveris, Aaron Tripp, and Kolan Sudi. It was directed by Tara and edited by Anna. Tara, how is your car situation doing right now? So we're still in it. Well, I can hear you. It sounds clear now. You're like, yeah, the connection sounds clearer. OK, beautiful. It was my only one bar, but I'm here. Hello. Well, I just had one question for you before we dive into our contract writer panel with Nicole Brandon and Michael. So yes, y'all, that was your cue. We'll be asking you to join us in just a minute. But Tara, before we get to that, we filmed and recorded that piece a couple of weeks ago before the IPCC report dropped on Monday. And I just was wondering how your relationship to that play has shifted, if at all, in light of the increased conversation and big emotions of the last week brought about by the report? You know, it's funny you say this just as an eagle is passing in front of us and around the car. Anyway, yeah, so the report is like, oh, y'all, we're getting warmer faster. There's actually things humans can do to stop it. We done been new, y'all. We done been new. There ain't nothing in that report that was not new. But something that I did think about is whenever we were rehearsing the play and we had Oogie with a shout out Oogie anyway. And she was talking about how she wanted to normalize ceremony just all the time within friend groups and being able to bless each other just whenever we need it. But something that I've been thinking about since that report, because again, my first thought was we done been new. My second thought was indigenous people done been saying this, black people done been saying this. People on the front line done been saying this. This is not news to anybody. But what I was thinking about, again, is with Oogie's play and how beautifully constructed it is, is that it happens in the middle of a Zoom call. Friends just having a fun time hanging out. And in the rehearsal process, y'all, you should have seen the original footage. It was like 20 minutes long anyway. But I just said, hey, just have a conversation. Because all of the actors are friends. We're all friends anyway. And then I told Cologne, whatever it feels natural, just dive into it. Anyway, that's exactly what happened. Anna edited it beautifully to make it all work out and not be a million minutes long. But Oogie wrote it that way. She's talking to us about it. Because climate change and the violence happening to our communities and to the earth is just so ingrained in our daily lives because it affects us on the day to day. And that's what I really love about the play. And then after this report came out, and again, it was like we done been new. And I was like, because this has been part of our lives and will continue to be. Anyway, so I really hope for folks tuning in where that's not part of your lives, at least not yet, anyway, that you'll be able to see those integrations. And how can we bring these conversations around climate justice and justice in general to our everyday and in places we may not think we can, such as in our contracts, maybe? Oh, Tara, wow. That was beautiful. Thank you for that wonderful segue and your beautiful thoughts for joining us from the car. I really appreciate you endlessly. And thanks also for giving us a little window into the rehearsal process, because I hadn't heard about that until now. And I just really appreciate hearing a little more about it. All right, everyone, I'm going to move us into the panel portion of the event now. And I'm so honored to be joined by Nicole, Brandon, and Michael. And I have the privilege of moderating the conversation between these three incredible guests. Nicole is an amazing human. And for more information about her, you should check out her website. She asked me to introduce herself that way, y'all. She's very fancy. And go check out all of her amazing awards and accolades and all the things that she does for us in the community on her website. But Nicole, can I ask what you, is there anything else you'd like to say to introduce yourself further in any Atlantic acknowledgement you'd like to give? Of course. My name is Nicole Salter. I identify as a child of Connie Washington Salter and as an African-American woman, cisgendered woman. My pronouns are she, her, hers. And my land acknowledgement is a huge shout out to the Lene Lenape people, the ancestral lands of the Muncie, but also the Lene Lenape that I've come to know here in New Jersey, the colonial name of New Jersey, East Orange, New Jersey. Thank you. And Brandon Michael Nase is an equally amazing human who also asked me to introduce him this way and tell y'all to go check out his website. Brandon, would you like to introduce yourself any further and give a landing acknowledgement? Yes, my name is Brandon Michael Nase. My pronouns are he, him, his. I am zooming in from the traditional lands of the Lene Lenape and the Canarsie people, the original stewards and caretakers of this land. And I will give a description. I am a black queer man. I am light skinned. I have a black goatee. I'm wearing a white shirt, t-shirt, a green hat. I almost always wear hats. Apparently that's my thing, everybody says. And I'm wearing like some clear glasses. And I'm sitting in my living room. My background is there's a brick wall and then there's a white wall. And you can kind of see my exposed coat rack in the living room. Amazing, thank you. And finally, Michael Francis will round out our panel today and he's another stellar human. Michael, would you like to introduce yourself any further and give any land acknowledgement? Sure. Hi everyone, Michael Francis, pronouns he, him. I am from the, I am on the ancestral lands of the Muncie Lenape and Wappinger. Colonially known as Heartstale, New York. I don't have a website, but I work for companies that have websites and they're octopus theatricals, producer hub and fiasco theater. Wonderful, thank you. I cannot wait to learn from all three of you. Some quick context for everybody who is watching. This event is part of Groundwater Arts Divest to Invest campaign. And I'm gonna ask for some support from Anna or Tara, probably Anna given Tara a situation. Can you drop one of the links for the Divest to Invest campaign in the chat? And can I ask you also to share the specific campaign pledge related to contract writers. So look out in the chat. Thank you, Anna is dropping that right now. But briefly, we launched the Divest to Invest campaign because we believe artists are way more powerful than we've been told. And we can do quite a lot actually to help grind the gears of the fossil fuel industry to a halt, which to be clear as Tara was alluding to earlier is what we need. The science is clear. And as Tara said, we done been new. So we're asking individual artists and arts organizations to sign the Divest to Invest pledge by the end of the year. There are three different types of commitments that individuals can make and three different types of commitments that organizations can make. But today we are focusing on one specific one for individual artists, which is a pledge to introduce a clause on future contracts and writers related to pushing institutions we work with toward divesting from fossil fuels. So thank you, Anna has already dropped that text of that pledge in the chat. This is the pledge that we've gotten the most questions about. So we thought we'd gather some really smart and really powerful people together to help talk about how to do this with us. So Nicole, can I start with you? Can you help us understand what even is a contract writer and when might they come into play for independent artists? Sure, a contract writer is, it's a legal document. It's like an addition or an addendum to an existing contract for artists who are independent artists. A lot of our contracts are negotiated by unions if you're in a union. And even if you're not in the union, the union contract tends to be the standard contract that is used even for those who are not union affiliated. A writer would be in addition to those terms, additional terms and agreements based on other measures or standards that you'd like to introduce for your specific agreement with the institution or the person or whatever. So there can be writers for time commitments. There can be writers for food preparation, housing requirements, transportation, specifications. It can be as ridiculous as my nails will only be done at this salon. Or as important as something like the writer that you all are introducing and everything in between. It is basically your way of negotiating some of your individual terms outside and beyond what those standards have been set for contracts within your art form. Awesome, thank you. Brandon or Michael, would either of you like to add anything to help us understand what a contract writer is as a tool or any experience you'd like to share from the perspective, particularly Brandon of an independent artist? I would just say that I feel like a lot of people just don't understand that it provides you access to power that you feel that you might not have. And I think that because it is like a legally binding document, I think it fools people a little bit and that they don't realize that they have the power that I, any contract I enter into could present a writer. I could draft a writer myself and say, oh, this also has to be attached. And as we've been working on the writer that we're working on, so many questions like, well, legally can, well, legally, and I'm like, no, you don't understand. I can ask for whatever I wanna ask for. And if it is agreed to, that's when it is then legally binding. And so I think with us in working on what we're now referring to as our values writer, it is like, these are all things that ultimately were like in good faith that we entered into thinking, well, this is how things would function and they haven't. And so in my mind, there is such power in a writer, especially writers like these that say, well, actually now legally, you said that this is what would happen. You signed your name to it. So if this isn't happening, whereas there exists the space where like racism isn't actually illegal, you know, and defining what racism looks like, the legalities of that are very gray and there's no clarity. And I think that this assists in providing some clarity in that area. That's all I would add. Yeah, I wanna underscore the first thing that you said about it's like a way to access power that we sometimes don't think that we have. Michael, did you have anything that you wanted to add to just the sort of intro on what is a contract writer? Yeah, and I think specifically to the paragraph that Groundwater has suggested around that language. I would go as far as to say, and I know that there's going to be nuance when you're dealing with an equity-issued contract because a lot of times that's not the cover page to another contract that is your agreement that you can attach that as a writer certainly. And I would always say that you can ask for whatever you want. You just have, there has to be a preparedness to understand if there's a no what that means to your response. The other thing I would say is in the broader non-jurisdictional contracts, which I mean that aren't necessarily equity or SDC or falling under a union umbrella is that that can be added as a paragraph to the actual agreement. So if you were presented with an agreement whether that is yourself or a representative, a lawyer, an agent, a creative producer, you can add that as markup. Again, as I say that, it means that it doesn't mean it is accepted. It means it's presented as a term to consider. And the smart person I work for has always said that these agreements and contracts are documents of communication. So I think that it has to center in communication and that also means picking up the phone and having a conversation about something, especially something that's important or anything that is a precedent so that you are expressing the communication verbally and then memorializing it in the document. Oh, that's interesting. Can you actually, can you say a little bit more about that in terms of it's a document of communication? Yeah, it doesn't mean that it's obviously the legal document, but it is expressing the communication around the nature of the project, meaning the terms of the agreement, the compensation schedule, the deliverables attached. And if I think beyond just this paragraph, if there is any sort of community engagement involved in the performance piece, I would as an artist that is coming with sort of receipts and expectations and also coming in partnership, make sure that I am communicating what I mean by the things that I'm saying. And so just in general, and I need to remind myself this of it every day, I have to try to get people on the phone or on a Zoom rather than email because nuance and importance is sometimes lost. I, yeah, I love that as advice for people and like tactics that work to try and get people to agree. It's just like actually get people on the phone or get people on a Zoom. Yeah. Michael, I know that you also, you sort of talked a little bit about the business side of producing. Can you give any advice to independent artists who might want to add a rider to their contracts? What are producers and organizations looking for? Like what do they care about in these kinds of negotiations? I certainly don't wanna speak for other organizations, but I do know that we all like sort of walk through a door with things attached to us. And certainly in the model that I work in for octopus, we're working with a lot of presenting venues. And so we support artists and produce their work into a touring capacity. And so that means that a lot of these houses are connected to a larger institution like university. And so that's why I sort of respond to the strategy of groundwater. It's not all or nothing. It is a scaffold that allows people to participate at different stages because I don't want artists pressed up against the idea that you have to just keep on saying no. I think there's a way to do both. But I think that for at least octopus and fiasco in the organizations that I work for, we are actively listening to what people are asking us. It doesn't mean we can always come to the exact terms, but we can sometimes hopefully accept everything and sometimes meet at sort of at least a communicated resolution. Awesome, thank you. Brandon, you already started to mention some of the work that Broadway for Racial Justice is doing around a values writer. Can you, would you be willing to share a little bit more about what's in the works? And if you have any thoughts on how divestment might fit into that? Yeah, and as I'm sitting here and reading the paragraph because this paragraph is not in our writer, but obviously the writer was sent, it's very crazy that we're having this discussion now because I just sent out a large email blast today to a group of people that are about to enter into a second phase of edits for a writer and Annalisa and Tara were on that email. And literally as I'm in this space, I'm like, I should send this to other people here as well, just to like involve in that conversation. We are at the end of the work on the writer and it's just kind of a last minute edits and making sure that if there's anything that people are like, I just like really don't agree with this or I really think this should be added. And given the edits that we've been going through, it's a lot of small things, but it's been very interesting for me personally and hearing Michael say like, you don't have to say no to everything as I literally every audition that I have received in the past year, I have literally been like, it's a no, it's a no, it's a no, it's a no. Because it's just, and so I think with the writer, my hope for the writer actually would be that it, it becomes like not necessary. It will always be in people's contracts, but it's like, we already know everything that's in that writer and it's already attached. So that's to say like, the theater companies, the producers, that managers, that agents are just kind of like, just so everybody knows this writer is attached to our contracts. Because there are certain things in the writer that people have asked like, well, this is already determined once I'm offered a job. And I'm like, right, but if this writer, like if you, that actually makes it even easier for you. If somebody already knows that like, okay, well, in this writer it says that there have to be BIPOC individuals on the creative team, then you already know that if there aren't BIPOC individuals on the creative team, it's a project that you're not going to do. But it also does lend itself to conversation and lend itself to transformation in that sometimes you're taking an audition or you're getting an offer and on that little breakdown, it says music director, TBD, choreographer, TBD, et cetera. And it's like, great. So who's on your creative team? Per my writer, there has to be people of color on the creative team. I just think it, and I also think that it's going to, it's there are people that aren't going to use it. I like quite frankly in our staff meeting, I was like, a lot of people aren't going to use this writer. A lot of people that have been pressing and saying, we need a writer, aren't going to use this writer. Because when push comes to shove, this is like, this is, I think for a lot of people where it gets scary in the sense of, this is when it becomes like contractually binding, you cannot do these things any longer. And for me, I'm like, this is exciting. This is like powerful. This is like the necessary change that we're talking about. But I think for some people it's scary. I feel like I'm, I know I know I'm definitely speaking in drafts because I am literally in the thick of the writer. Oh, I feel you. Then the email this morning and I keep going back and looking at it and reading through it because it's also like a space where I'm like, I don't, we want it to be in depth but we don't want it to be 30 pages. We want it to be nuanced and we want it, we want it to bring about communication but we also want it to be digestible. We want people to be able to read it and be like, okay, I get this, I understand what this means. This is clear. There is clarity within this. Yeah. Yeah, the fear that you're speaking to, it's so interesting and it's actually connecting for me to the thing that Michael was getting at around contracts and writers as a tool of communication because like for my own self, I'm thinking about moments when I've tried to like actually negotiate for things that I wanted. Then you're like face to face with someone who maybe like there are power dynamics at play whether they're social power or like positional power dynamics. Then you're like actually having to put yourself on the line and I like that's where for me sometimes the fear can arise because it's not just like, okay, I'm gonna sign this document and like do my job and no, now I'm gonna actually like put myself on the line for what I stand for. And there are things in our writer particularly that it was interesting when Michael brought us communication that ultimately dictate, we have to have communication. Like in the areas of transparency and accountability and saying like you will need to report to us these things per this writer, it says that. So it's like we will have to have a conversation about these things period. So I think that's a really interesting thing at the dramatist guild, which I guess I'll speak from that lens given the panel that has assembled. I could be with any one of y'all but I'll speak from this lens right now. There's also an inclusion writer on the table. And what I find interesting about some of the creation of the writers that I've seen since this 2020 moment of time some of them do sort of assert something and then like back off the teeth of them assert something or not really defined. So they'll say things like there shall be reasonable consideration for or like what the hell does that actually mean at the end of the day? Or even when you start to get breakdowns that say breakdowns written by playwrights or written by casting people that say we're looking for someone who's white presenting and we're like, okay, that's a different language but how does that actually change the dynamic? Cause you're going to end up with another white person, right? So adding the word presenting doesn't now make it like you're and which brings me around to the question I'd like to post the panel not taking your job on Elisa at all. Well, by all means please Nicole but just contracts should be representative of relationships that have been built, right? But we know that those documents don't always indicate that a relationship has been actually built. That's right, that's right. It's just a thing. So how do we, we're basically using this document to try to legislate a change of heart and mind that I'm not sure that the document is actually able to ever do. So I don't know whether you get to 30 pages, Brandon 80 pages, however many pages you need to define every term even though we're speaking English you don't understand the English coming out of my mouth and we don't have the same point of view or heart. So how do we get to a place where we're actually developing relationship and trust and respect and a common goal because I feel like they'll always be around a way around your language in the document. And then I'm also curious to talk about the leverage we have for that or not to really develop those relationships but also what we're going to do about the artist's scarcity. I don't want to undermine it by calling it a scarcity mentality because it makes it sound like you crazy and it's all in your mind. You're not crazy, it's not all in your mind. It's an actual experience. It's an experience created by the world we have created it doesn't have to be that way but at this current juncture it is that way. So whether you're afraid of it or not is irrelevant to me it is those are the terms of engagement. If you say no, you will be replaced period. So it is putting yourself out there as you said Annalisa for that rejection or that limitation that you've created for yourself without anything on your horizon to replace it. It's really easy to be like no when you have your own production company and you're developing your own projects and you have your own relationships and you're doing your own thing. It's really hard to say no when you don't foresee any avenue for you to give of your time, talent and treasure in the way that you want to to the world. Like if this is the platform, you know and this is a conversation I've been having a lot with TCG or with the dramatist's guild like these institutions and the people who hold the purse strings and create the platforms and maintain the platforms are ostensibly doing so for the art and for the community but somehow the power dynamic gets shifted where the institution matters more than the community being served or the artists providing the content. This is a conversation Brandon jump in. I just, I feel always feel like I'm the odd person out because I grew up and I'm working so hard to like allow space for greatness. And just like I just grew up like so like it's this way or it's that way. It's this way or it's that way. And there are areas where I'm like that's not how it can't be that. And then there are areas that I'm like it's that and this is like a space where I'm like you know, there are shows that two years ago I had been in for four times. Everybody asked me, why are you not in this show? How are you not in this show? This is your show. That is your track. How are you not telling that story? And I cannot to now today, I cannot imagine. My actual thought process that I said this multiple times is I wish that I could book it and I could be offered the $10,000 a week paycheck just so that I could say no, just so I could say like your money doesn't have power over my black body. The power and the like, what that would do for my spirit to be able to say like no, no, no, no, I'm reclaiming my time. I'm reclaiming my space. I'm reclaiming my worth. That the money that you have at the end of the day which is what in my mind always boils down to that it's always like, well, I don't agree with them. I don't agree with this. I know that they're doing this to my friend but like I got to pay my bills. You know, a very close friend of mine always says like I can go drive for Lyft. I can go drive for Uber. I can work at Target. I will get a bomb ass discount because I spend too much money at Target as it is. I could use the discount. And I don't, there is like you said, like it's not a myth of scarcity but I just am like, I'm just gonna reject it fully. I'm gonna say that I'm going to manifest the fact that when I do say no to these entities that are manipulating, that are abusing, that are hurting and that on the front, like on the cover, you know it's all people of color doing the show and they post in about Trans Lives Matter on their IG and then behind closed doors are doing the exact opposite. I'm like, I know that even if, even if I don't book something better it's the peace of mind for me. It's the peace of mind knowing that like I'm not gonna get into that space and just be like in turmoil 24 seven because my conscience is like, what are you doing? What are you doing? Why are you doing this? That's where I'm at with it. I love that Brandon. It's actually really resonates a lot. Actually part of the reason that the Groundwater Arts Campaign is called Divest to Invest. It's this whole conversation that we're interested in around like divesting from the systems that are harming us and investing in building systems and ecology and ecologies that are regenerative. And Anna, can you grab, there's a link, I think it's with the Climate Justice Alliance. Part of their campaign, they have a campaign pillar that's, it's called reinvest in our power and in the sort of the climate justice movement that has been going on for decades. You know, people have been pushing for divestment. Thanks Anna, it's now in the chat. There's been a lot of conversation about divesting from fossil fuels for a long time now. And as some wins were happening, people were like, okay, well, what happens when the fossil fuel economy is no more? We need to invest in systems that are restorative and regenerative and I look at the work that Broadway for racial justice is doing. I look at Nicole's leadership and I'm so reminded of that keynote that you gave. When was that 2020 at the TCG conference where you talked a lot about our sort of disconnect with nature? Absolutely, I feel like we're in a world that believes it's a, that the capacity to divest is a privilege, like you privileged people who have enough and you can divest, instead of looked at as a point of power or resource as Brandon was indicating that you get to decide how to invest. Like you have these resources, the resources of your time and attention. I'm not even talking about money, but of your time and attention and energy and talent where you put it will grow something and it's important where you put it. I think that artists especially are a part of a culture that is taught to believe that artists are not powerful until they're mega millionaires. So you actually should take what you get. The show must go on, will go on with or without you. Who are you? You are nothing. You have to prove yourself daily. I mean, the audition process is essentially the auction box process. Let me see your teeth. Let me see your hair. Let me see you, like this is what happens to these people daily. So it's no wonder why they might feel like it's ridiculous to divest that you'll just be alone in solitude and you'll go by the wayside and no one will notice. So it's really a reeducation process for artists, individual artists to understand what kind of power is at their disposal. And I think that's a challenge that all of these institutions are involved in addressing right now. Yeah, right on. I wanna shift very slightly to pull on a thread that I think I heard all three of you actually bring up a little bit, which is the complicating factor of unions. And I wonder if any of y'all could talk about how unions sort of fit into the conversation about contract writers specifically when there's collective bargaining involved between institutions and individual artists who are unionizing and there's just a lot of different power dynamics at play there. For 10 years I worked at a talent agency, a boutique talent agency in New York from 2005 to 2015. And I'll be very honest, and from those 135 clients we wrapped, I was never asked about a contract writer for divestment. It's so weird to say it was a different time, but it was a lifetime and a half ago in the way things have moved in our world, thankfully. I don't know what would be said to me if I presented to Netflix and attached writer to their SAG long form agreement that never got to us until three weeks after the client shop. And that's not dragging Netflix, that is just saying like the world we live in and booking people in day players, recurring characters, that is a world unto itself. And so I would also say that about equity. I go to equity as the general manager, business manager of a producer to apply for a contract which I present to y'all. And so sure, I mean, we as an organization could absolutely say, we agree with everything you say. We are now going to book you into presenting venues. I don't know if I can certainly by your guideposts say, if those are organizations you don't wanna work with, we won't pursue them. But that is the complicated conversation that in some ways I don't know if equity needs to actually take up and SAG-AFTRA as an actual active paragraph inside their agreements. Because the thing is I run a 501C3 for Fiasco Theater and I work with producer hub and we are all pursuing grant making and foundation grants and that stratosphere of fundraising and that brings up another thing. So, that's why I look to the areas that we can sort of scaffold agreements and deliverables and expectations and exhibitors and writers to activate what our intention is, especially when the institution can't meet every need. So at least it's documented as a point of reference. I just, I don't, I am always gonna be just like real and transparent and I'm just like, I in the current space and time am truly just confused what the unions are even for actually. I don't know what they're actually doing. So for me, it's like, I understand that there is an equity minimum. I'm always gonna try to push to get paid more than that. I understand all of the rules and I'm always gonna try to push to receive more because I feel that I'm worth more. And so then I'm just like, so then if everything about this agreement, I'm like, this isn't, this isn't no, this isn't no, this isn't no, this isn't no. That's what leads me to be like, so what actually, what is this for? Why, why is this here? And to what Michael said, I'm just like the majority of the things that I would request, like in my values writer or in another writer, it's like, they just don't, they don't even have the capacity to draft something like this in their own conversations in collective bargaining. When I think about the fact that like the Broadway, who was involved in the collective bargaining agreements in drafting those things, I'm just like, we can either choose to like wait until there's more representation in those spaces or we could just draft a writer that we're all like, yeah, I sign up on this, cool, let's use it. It's interesting to me, I'm speaking specifically about equity now. I definitely appreciate the union movement, the collective bargaining movement. I think we all have benefited from it, period. I think that it has its advantages and disadvantages though. And I think that one disadvantage is just bureaucracy. I feel like every institution, every union would have to take this on individually. There's no sort of unity and uniformity about any of it. And so one group does this one thing, the other group does this one thing, everyone wants their own credit. I was actually thinking about a conversation I was having with a lobbyist who reminded this group of cultural arts advocates that in the 90s, they were all basically at war with one another and destroyed an opportunity for forward movement in legislation on behalf of the arts workers because they couldn't get it together. So there's that aspect of it. There's also the aspect, and I'm speaking quite frankly from my own personal experience, that our union has actually used the writer tool or allowed the writer tool to be used to overcome that which they have even negotiated on behalf for the field. So there's a way it's like get around and overcome and get over those minimums or maximums for whomever. And so that's also another interesting use of that same tool to create that very same inequity that they were fighting to maintain for everybody. And that has been at the behest of individual artists and producers. Our own union, my union has made agreements with producing entities that are not to the advantage of their members. I don't know if that's because they have relationships that I don't know anything about with those entities. I don't know if that's because there's some part of a bigger picture I can't see or what that's about. But from my specific vantage point, I felt sold out. So to ask that institution to draft the writer to protect me further in ways that they undermine my protection already currently is kind of interesting to me. I agree with Brandon that and with Michael that the space for these kinds of agreements do need to come from an individual standard of boundaries that you create for yourself, that you have to, I don't wanna sound ableist, forgive my vocabulary, but stand up for. And I think that we're also not used to sacrifice. We're also not used to sacrifice. Like previous, we have to have like mass oppression to be like, okay, we have to sacrifice, we all are not gonna get on the bus. We're not gonna do it. But the moment that it's okay for some people to get on the bus, then those people get on the bus and then suddenly the bus is running and only a few people are still walking. You know what I mean? So what is it that's going to be that collective tipping point, I guess is where my interest lies now that really shifts the culture? Because yes, individually we can each do this right now and step into this power right now and adopt this language in our writers now. But what is the tipping point of culture change where people are like, this is actually the way we're going to be with one another, period. I don't know. But, and I also kind of feel like Nicole that in my opinion, I think that that's to what you were saying about individual or various organizations or movements ultimately coming at each other which makes everything dissolve. In my mind, I'm like, that's why BFRJ was like, oh, let's make a writer. Because I think that, and I, that's why I also think we see you as great. It's like, here's the demands. Now you all go do it. Either you're gonna do it or you're not gonna do it. And it's like, just present tools. And that is to say like, here's a writer. Some people are gonna use it. Some people aren't. It's also not like, you don't have to use the writer. This isn't a dictated mandate of like, these are the, but I know a lot of people that are like, oh wow, everything on paper that I'm feeling that I'm like, this is actually the space that I need to go into. Great, perfect. Why would I not present this to someone to say like, this is what I need. And then it's just like so transparent to say like, you're not gonna get this. Okay, cool. Then I don't need to come here. I think tools and testimony, because people may not have the imagination to understand what they could do. So that's where you have these tools. This is what you could be doing is up to you. And then we need some testimony. I did that. This is what happened. I did that. That's what happened. We need to start to use our storytelling as it was intended, the technology it was intended to be which is to help us sort of collectively become aware and advance and consciously grow in the direction we want to go. It's not just for entertainment. We need to tell our stories of using these tools so that more people will feel empowered and informed about how they can move themselves and their loved ones in the direction that they want to go and see. Yeah, that sounds so cool. Or turning the tools that they thought they were gonna use to keep us in a space like Michael putting in the six month rider. I'm like, I was locked into a year-long contract with Katz, locked in via my rider as a principal. But let me tell you what, the amount of times that they reached out to my agents and said, if Brandon wants to leave, we will let him out of his contract because I was not backing down ever. I'm gonna request racial bias training. I'm gonna request, I'm going to report it to equity. I'm going to go through all of these lines of communication and it was like, we'll let you out. And then it was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No. Not when the going gets hard, testimony. Yes, Brandon, thank you. Amen. Oh, I love it. Y'all, I can stay on this and just talk to y'all all evening. I'm like, let's go get a gin and tonic. Let's just hang out. But I want to open up a little bit. I have one more question that I wanna ask to this group, but I wanna, this is your cue audience members. If you have questions for this very clearly powerful and brilliant group of humans, this is your cue to start thinking about your questions and you can drop them in the Zoom chat. You can drop them on the Facebook feed or if you're watching on HowlRoundTV, you can email us at brownwaterarts at gmail.com. So feel free to drop any questions you might have about contract writers or anything that you've heard us talk about in any of those places. And as the audience is thinking about what they want to introduce as a question, Nicole, one of the other hats that you wear is as the current chair of TCG's board. So I'm just like thinking about the perspective that you have on the field. And we know that the arts don't exist in a vacuum and I sort of mentioned this already, but so often think about the keynote where you spoke about getting into right relationship with nature and so much, it feels like so much has changed since last summer and it also feels like nothing has changed since last summer. And I wonder where you see from your vantage point, where do you see leverage points and opportunities for change within the field? What's your testimony about where change can happen? Man, I so struggled with this question, Annalisa. When I thought, I was like, I wanna come in and be like, here's where you have leverage to get what you want. Just step on this side of the seaside, man, it's gonna spring up. I really struggled with that question. I think because I want it to be, but maybe that's also like the Western mindset of myself or the 21st century mindset of myself where I want like an instantaneous thing. When we say get in right relationship with nature, I think key word is like relationship. Like most artists, individual artists, especially before 2020, really don't have an understanding of what they're a part of. Like the business that they're a part of, the technology of storytelling they're a part of, this business will make you feel like ground, like you're grinding, but like you can't do anything about anything. It'll also make you feel like you're a dime a dozen. So I think what's most important is that you build relationships with people who are in your field, who are not necessarily in your practice, who are not necessarily in your practice. When I embarked upon doing that, I could see the fuller picture a little better so that I could understand how to communicate more my experience of this world that we've created called our industry, our arts worker industry. And I could then see points of entry for change that were actually doable now, right? So when you were like, divest now, I mean, I love the word divest, I really do. But like how, it just seems like big to some people, like big, like big and impossible. But if it's like, have this conversation with people and maybe they'll let you in to how they select their material, how they do their marketing, how they do community engagement, how, like what everybody in this industry is struggling. And that was hard for me to accept too. Even the ones who you feel like shouldn't be struggling and why are you struggling? Cause you're making whatever you're making and doing whatever, like, I don't understand why are you struggling? You have health insurance. I don't understand why are you struggling? You have a salary. I don't understand why are you struggling? It doesn't make any sense to me. And yet sitting with them and listening to them like I want to be listened to, well, let me understand what they're actually struggling within. And understanding the whole picture can help penetrate what can actually be done or what might be a good investment or be a for a next step. And then I also, this is not, I don't know if it's a point of leverage on Alisa Lord. This question really plagued me. I was upset that I couldn't answer it, like spot on, I really was. But I really feel like we don't know that we're a part of, I hate to, this is not a plug, but we're a part of a continuum. And if you have like a larger picture, an understanding of how we're all evolving to a place of getting more and more returning, I should say, more and more in right relationship with nature, we can understand what we can do with our lap of the race more effectively and efficiently. And maybe instead of just taking a few, making a few a modicum of change, we can take a bigger swath of a leap into that. But we're also like, what we have inherited is I have found in sharing TCG in being on council at the dramatist guild and listening to the mayhem that's going on at equity and in sec, that what we have inherited is larger than I could have ever, like the difficulty. It's like, whoa, and that you're going to unravel it by yourself is like, no. It's like, what are you gonna do and what are we gonna be a part of? And I would also say it's simple, but it's what I came up with on Elisa. This point of levers that you have is speaking up, is speaking up in the way that you speak. Even if nothing changes in that moment, to have it on record that you don't agree, to have it on record that there's a violation of values here, to have it on record, because if you don't, one could say that you liked it and that you agreed. Thank you, Brandon, period. Selva, like it sounds really, I wanted to have like this, what we need to do, you know. No, Nicole, actually that the thing of speaking up, I mean, is what a contract writer is for, right? Like that is what that's, that goes back to Brandon's first point that it's a tool that activates our power. I love that, I love that. Anna or Tara, are there questions from the Facebook or no, not yet? Okay, then I'm gonna go back to some other questions that I skipped over. And if audience members have questions, we have about 10 minutes left. So if you're sitting on any questions, now is the time. Let me see here. Michael, you mentioned this sort of briefly earlier and you started to talk about producers who are in relationship with university or corporate partners and the sort of complexity and nuance of introducing writers when there are multiple different relationships involves. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about, you had some ideas I think about the terms of an agreement and scope of work that could be scaffolded out to build the intention behind, for example, a divestment writer. Could you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, I think that, you know, one thing that I think we all hold here is that theater doesn't just happen in a proscenium box. It happens in presenting models, it happens as performance art, it happens across multiple disciplines, it is not just actors' equity, a wonderful union, it is not just SDC, SAG-AFTRA, blah, blah, blah, you know. And so that is actually an abundance model to me because that allows for opportunity. Especially in the presenting market and what I'm saying about the presenting market is, you know, a presenting house in a regional place that is not what we consider like a Longmore Theater or a St. Louis rep, but is like a Hampshire at University of Iowa or is a Utah President, these all these different organizations that, you know, within those theatrical productions that are going there, there's a lot of times community engagement. And I think that if your art is based in justice in general, throughout that community engagement and detailing that community engagement, I think you can also sort of activate, you know, activate items that will support the divestment or the sort of ideas behind divestment because I think that the one thing I come up against a lot of times is when I see that writer that I'm very familiar with is how do I track how the money comes in when it's split, you know? And how do I make accountability happen from, you know, organizations? And a lot of that is the radical change Brandon is talking about. And I love Brandon and Broadway for racial justice and I love the idea of radical, radical change saying, no, these are my precedents, but if you can't support that model currently as an artist, what are the other ways that you can use that agreement, use that scope of work that you're identifying to also identify ideals and values that you can inherently build into the work in a way that shows it in an agreement or in an exhibit A or in a writer? Again, that is a compromise model though. So I know that that's not completely identifying the problem or solving it. But I wonder too sometimes, like I've had experience myself in, I sort of entered into a conversation with a producing organization that was producing a play of mine that was about, it's a play about Guantanamo and the legacy of detainment at Guantanamo. And that producing organization is still currently taking money from war profiteers. And I did enter into a conversation with them about like, I don't understand how like this is a values misalignment and like actually how can you have the logo of Northrop Grumman who's like making the military weapons that is maintaining the military industry? Do you know, like I was like, this just, how do you produce this play with this logo on? It just doesn't actually make sense to me. And in that particular instance, I was deeply unsuccessful in getting any movement to change. But the conversation itself, I sort of looked back, that conversation was several years now ago. And I wonder, as Nicole was sort of pointing out earlier, I wonder about two things. Number one, that's sort of like record of speaking up. And number two, the like longer-term relationship, I wonder about the impacts, like the ripple effects that I will never know about on the individuals, not the institution, but the individuals that I had conversations where we were like in conflict. I wonder about how they think maybe differently about institutional relationships with corporate funders. And I like, that's where I'm putting my hope right now as an individual navigating power dynamics in this field is like the ripple effects that we maybe don't even know about. Nicole, you look like you wanna jump in. Yeah, I just have a question for everybody. I think Michael specifically, but everybody, anybody watching anybody, when I try to think like a producer, sometimes I see like, I would be like, I'm the person sort of responsible for creating the box that we all get to play in and what size it is and how fun it is or not and how safe it is. Like I'm helping to create that box because I'm sort of responsible for assembling the team that's going to produce the thing, right? When we talk about things like inclusion writers or divestment writers or those things, I rarely come, I mean, I'd haven't talked to everybody now, but I rarely come into contact with anybody who's like, that's stupid. I never come into contact with anyone who's like, that's dumb, I don't wanna do that. But when we get to like the outcomes, we don't often get the outcomes that represent those things, even though everybody seems to be like, of course we want that to happen. What is it that is causing that chasm in people who seem to for the most part agree? Yeah, okay, great. You know what the interesting thing is, I think there's a lot of different models. I think that's what it all comes down to is like, I think personally through the work that I do with the teams that I work with and especially in the producing team at Octopus, we're there to actually, we're producing team, but we're there to advocate for our artists and support them and be working partnership. And so I think in general, any precedent our artists or artist organization has, we are going to align with if we are wanting to work with them. So I absolutely agree. I think there's nobody that's silly enough to say like, I don't ever want to say that anymore. I, what I would say is I think that everybody's in agreement that these writers are important. It's the moment of action and the accountability on that. And so what I would never do, and I think we would never do as an organization is try to sugarcoat the expectations of what somebody is going to achieve if they're simply agreeing to a writer. And again, I think it comes down to, you know, what is the deal breaker? A lot of times on a project, you know, Annalisa, that was a deal breaker for you to not participate with that organization and doing your play. And I will say that even at the 10 years at a boutique agency and then the umpteenth years since with Fiasco and Octopus and everything, it's always been very easy to represent and advocate and be in partnership with artists in all their forms if they knew what their bottom line was because then you could be, you know, in partnership with them for that bottom line. You know, like Brandon would be a dream. I would know that Brandon has a bottom line that he's expressing completely. It's just sometimes the scarcity model creeps in because it does. I mean, by nature, it's not a nine to five job. What really any of us do because being an artist is a nine to five job. Producing isn't either because you need artists. So it comes, you know, it starts to blur when the scarcity model creeps in and the bottom line isn't as clear. And so how do we scaffold that next level for people to still participate in? And I would also just add, you know, Adrienne remember, Mary Brown talks about vision, talking and vision doing. And I just think vision talking is really easy. I actually do. And I think especially for creatives, I think it's really easy to be like, yo, we could produce a revival of this and we could have this person do it and they would be so dope. And oh my gosh, we did it at this theater, da, da, da, da. And then when it comes down to like, okay, let's do it. That's when everybody's like, well, where are we gonna get the money? Well, we gotta find it. Well, how are we gonna find it? Well, we're gonna do this. But that's hard. That's difficult. And it's like, yeah, vision doing is difficult. Exactly. But I also think that there are very, that there's varying levels of difficulty and different people are able to handle the varying levels of difficulty. I think that, no, I think that. I mean, it's obvious in the, in commercial theater, like it's really easy for always transparent, like white producers to say like, let's do Escape to Margaritaville. We're gonna do it this way. We'll get this book. I know this person, we'll just do this. And for people with power, it's really difficult to do innovative things. Like that's what I'm learning. I'm like, because there has to be an admittance that like I'm having difficulty here, period. Like, and people with power don't wanna say, this is actually really difficult for me. And I think that we all see like the really great leaders and the people who are empowered that we're like, wow, they're amazing are the people that actually will be like, this is gonna be really difficult. I don't know how I'm gonna do this. I don't know if we can do this. So let's actually figure out if we can. And if we can't, we need to say no. If we can, but it's gonna be difficult, we need to express that. I'm definitely like just like speaking in drafts. I'm also speaking in draft, but I love this conversation, Michael and Brandon. What I'm hearing, because it's what you said and what I heard may not be the same thing, but what I'm hearing is things get a little, everyone agrees until we start to talk about who's accountable, who's to blame, who's at fault if shit goes awry. Oh, sorry, they mean to say the S-word. If things, if things go awry. And so really we're talking about the fear of liability and the unwillingness to try, because I don't want like, I'm all for y'all doing it. Y'all do it, but I don't wanna be to blame or liable if things don't go exactly right. And I'm also hearing the fear of perceived risk, especially when I'm thinking more of inclusion writers. I'm not so much the divestment writer because this is a new thing, but inclusion writers, the talk that I understand my audience in a very specific way, and this is what I know will work. I'm not sure if that will work. I think those kinds of arguments may, especially in commercial theater, Brendan, not even in commercial theater. I was gonna say, maybe those arguments were cool, circa 1940, but even then there were people of color on Broadway, very successful people of color on Broadway. So we know that it's not, the perceived risk is not the loss of money. So the perceived risk then in my mind must be the loss of control. Just saying. Just saying. Oh, it is 5.30 and I'm like, we're just getting good. But I wanna be mindful and respect everybody's time. And before we wrap up, I think we may have lost Tara, but I wanna bring Anna back. Thank you so much. I just wanna say thank you to all of you, Brandon, Nicole, Michael for sharing all of your wisdom with us this afternoon, this evening. And I hope that everybody who is here with us in the Zoom or on Facebook or on HowlRound, or who will watch after today because this conversation will live on the internet forever. We hope that whenever you watch it, you will leave and feeling inspired and empowered to take maybe just a step toward divestment. And Anna, can I turn it over to you to do some more thanks before we wrap up? Of course. I wanna say thank you to Uki, Jen, Kalan, Kenny and Erin for your beautiful work on the water song. And just a big thank you to our ASL interpreters and captioners and the team at HowlRound for helping us make this event accessible for everybody forever. Thank you. And we're gonna drop the link one more time to the Divest to Invest campaign pledge. That'll go in the chat and on Facebook. And we invite you to add your name to the list of those of us fighting for the futures that we know we deserve. And on that note, thank you one final time to everybody and we'll see you at the next Groundwater Arts event.