 So I feel like deja vu now. So hi. My name is Chris Laco. I'm a leader of software development at Rackspace. In private cloud, we build clouds for a living, which sounds more exciting than it really is. You'll notice by my slide, I've crossed out the word manager and put in leader. And today, I want to talk about helping your manager be a better leader for you. While this talk is going to be a lot about me and what my beliefs are and some of the changes that I've gone through between becoming a manager and moving to a leader, my go out of this talk that is at least one person in this room will go back to work and start asking more questions of their leader, their supervisor, their tech lead, even their peers. Again, this isn't just about managerial relationship but also tech lead and a peer relationship. So like all good things, I'll start this with a story. I remember about three and a half years ago when I got promoted to a manager. And I went to Pittsburgh TechFest. Sorry, Pittsburgh DevOps days. And the very first keynote talk was somebody who hated managers, hated management, and railed against managers pretty hard in the first 15 minutes to which all of my peers and coworkers at the conference looked over at me and laughed gleefully. Luckily, at the time I was too scared with the promotion to know what I was even getting into. And it took a good six months for that to sink in. And now that I'm starting to understand what it is to be a leader instead of just a manager by title, I want to share that with as many people as I can in hopes that they can ask the same of their boss and have that better working relationship with their boss or their group at work. So helping your manager be a better leader for you. Or computers. So helping your manager be a better leader for you. Or as I like to say, everything I know I learned from Picard tips on Twitter. So again, a lot of this talk is going to be about me, my beliefs, and my journey from manager to leader. I won't claim to be a great leader. Some days, not even a good leader. But I'm now self-aware enough to know that I need to progress and do something better for my people. So Picard management tip. Know who you really are and what really matters to you. Then let the crew know. This is super important. And I found out shockingly that most people don't know what their boss or their leader or their tech lead believes. What is your philosophy on development? What is your philosophy on people, on conflict, on resolution, on work-life balance? All of those things that are really important. I find a lot of people just don't have those conversations. And so for me, one of the first turtles was having enough experience to know what I believe so then I can share that with folks in my group so they better understand me and better know how to interact with me. And it's a two-way street, right? Ultimately, you want them to share the same thing with you so that you can have that conversation with them in a way that they require. For myself, I'm restorative, empathy, developer, analytical learner, self-assurance, belief, responsibility, or later incorrectness if you're into the Clifton Stringsfinders. Things that when I learned as a developer, I gleefully ignored. And then when somebody said, hey, you should probably think about being a manager, I went, oh, wait, restorative empathy and developer. Yeah, I turned out I care about people and I like watching them grow. I should probably do that. But knowing that about myself and bringing that is part of it and thus sharing that with the people in my group and in peer groups so that they know about me and know that those are my qualities and maybe it matches with some of their weaknesses, right? And so we can start to work together like stronger Lego bricks to build a stronger team and a stronger product. Again, as an individual contributor, then to manager and then to leader, right? So the first is the title, which everybody goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm a manager. I don't know what I'm doing, which is really what they're trying to say. And the leader is, to me, taking that next step of getting rid of the ego, understanding who you are, understanding how you want to contribute to your group and leading by example, be it technically or emotionally or showing vulnerability to the team so that they will trust you when they're having hard times, et cetera. And so really the important takeaway for this is know what your manager or your tech leaders, core values are. What are their core values? What are their strengths? Have that conversation. See where you align. See, this gives you insight into, okay, if they panic 15 minutes before a meeting, know why. Maybe it's because their core values aren't great for presentations or they're nervous or they're really detail focused and they want to talk about the low level details and bigger picture and if that drives you crazy in a meeting, now you know why. But the main thing here is to ask, talk, share and listen, both from you to your leader and your leader to you and open that conversation. Next, per card management tip, be the team coach for your crew and not their loving parent nor their drill sergeant. For me, in my beliefs, what this meant was I hate saying that I'm their boss. Somebody will ask me, hey, are you so-and-so's boss? And I cringe a little bit. I'm only for the purposes of HR and paperwork, yes. But my firm belief is that it is a partnership with a different career path, right? So just because I deal in meetings and emails and HR activities and career growth, it is no more important than their contributions as an individual contributor in terms of code and team leadership and software quality and et cetera. My job is to unblock their paths so their talents can thrive. Per card management tip number three, share the credit, take the blame. This is one that I firmly believe in, that I've learned from my leaders is failure is always I and success is we or they, right? So regardless of what caused the problem, the failure is solely on my shoulders. Either I didn't give enough direction, I didn't have an open enough conversation, I didn't foresee the problems or I did see the problems but didn't act quick enough. Whatever it is, my job is to be that point or that umbrella and success is we or they, right? If the team releases a product, does a great job, hits a deadline, whatever the milestone may be, the success was there is because it's their team and not my credit to take. Another per card management tip, take full responsibility for your crews and mistakes. Again, failure is I, success is we or they. A lot of people will term this the G rated poop umbrella for your group, right? My job is to shield them from those failures and help guide them to success and not let that be taken upon them in terms of blame. Next per card management tip, watch over the crew, they're your responsibility. So one of the things that I had to do or realized that I had to do earlier on, I mean it takes a while, right? You spend the first six months as a manager, sort of freaking out, like oh my God, I don't know what I'm doing and I have people now and they depend on me and I have to lead this meeting and I've never let a meeting with 20 people and a whole bunch of peers and it's quite the experience for some people. But at some point I had to come to the realization and decide what kind of leader did I want to be. And it's not to say that there are one is bad or versus the other and I think a lot of people move between these two types but I essentially believe that there are two types. There are people, leaders, who their primary concern is the people and their wellness and by taking care of them in that way they will take care of the product. There are leaders who are very technically focused, right? They're focused on some of the details in the project, not necessarily in the weeds but they're concerned with roadmaps and milestones and planning and stuff like that. We need both kinds of leaders and I think as leaders move through their career and groups change and projects change and company directions set priorities, right? It's gonna be natural to flow in and out of those things but it's important to be aware that you know which one you want to be and it's even more important to know which one your leader is and which mode they're acting in in your group, right? Being very situationally aware of is your leader in people mode or technical mode, right? Because that's gonna change the nature of your interactions if you see them stressed out because of deadlines or if you see them maybe not in planning meetings but more one-on-ones, right? This is again a point of them trying to situationally adjust to that. Another precarred management tip along this line once all of their basic needs are taken care of crew members are motivated by the meaningfulness of their work. Again, my firm belief is that my job is to take care of the people I'm entrusted with first, the product second. If the people are happy and taken care of they will take care of the product. And so I don't have to be in the weeds technical meddler in that respect. Next precarred management tip, it's okay to be gentle and kind. I don't know if anybody's seen talk online about vulnerability but one of my firm beliefs is to be vulnerable with team members, be an open book if you want the same, right? And vulnerability comes in many levels. It can be standing in front of a presentation that's being recorded and saying, you know what, sometimes I fart in my sleep. That's vulnerability, right? But being brave enough to do that, right? And with your team being able to, I know some leaders will not try to be stoic and not show that they're having a bad week, they're having a bad month, they're also burnt out, right? Part of being vulnerable with your team is not being afraid to share it with them, hey, last month was rough for me, I'm stressed, I'm feeling burnt out. How are you feeling, right? And start to build that trust so that when the time comes that the team members are feeling burnt out or feeling stressed or having personal problems that they may or may not want to share or just to make you aware of so that you understand their stress, that they trust you enough to bring that to you. Even to the extreme of building that vulnerability so somebody comes to you much earlier and says, you know what, I'm kind of done with this technology, I'm gonna start looking for a different job maybe somewhere else, right? Rather than the last day, sorry, I'm leaving Monday. You know, we all don't want to leave, but the fact that there's trust there and somebody trusts you enough to tell you that a month, two months in advance, again is I think very important to have that level. And this only happens by conversation and sharing and it's again, all these are two way streets knowing what to ask of your leader in this realm and also trying to show the same to them. Another Procard Management tip related to this, admitting one's failures is a sign of confidence and strength, it reassures others that failing is okay. Part of that vulnerability is always being willing to say, you know what, I was wrong, I made the wrong decision, you're right, maybe I was involved too much, I tried to change your direction too much, I didn't let you make the decisions or allow you have enough ownership of the decisions, right? You have to be willing to say those kinds of things, again, to build that trust with your team and it will make you a better leader overall, just being able to recognize that in yourself. And lastly on this topic, when you make a mistake, apologize right away, embrace humility over defense, again. The longer your wait to say you were wrong, the worse the problem manifests itself, either by team frustration or other ways. And so being vulnerable, being embracing humility, saying you're wrong, apologize, move on, figure out how to learn from that mistake and not make it again as a leader. I said final, I lied. In an emergency, don't be afraid to let the crew see your in your pajamas. So again, if you don't know, say you don't know, if you are in the middle of not sort of freak out mode, don't try to hide it. Use your team to your advantage. And again, that will build vulnerability with them. You don't have to be the stoic layer of I have all the answers because you don't, none of us do. We have to work in cooperative teams to make success happen. Another precarred management tip, question authority and permit others to question yours without fear of punishment. For me, this is, it is always okay for folks to go to my peers or my leader if I'm not serving their needs properly, right? So if somebody has told me once or twice or three times, hey, I'm not happy or this project isn't going well or this task didn't happen or whatever the case may be, I may be, I'm human, right? I may be busy. I may not be hearing what they're telling me. I may be hearing something else. And so it's very important to let you or people know that it is perfectly acceptable for them to go to a peer, whether that's another leader in a group that we work closely with or my leader or my leader's leader, right? Whatever it takes to get them to a better place and get the problem solved, that's the important issue. It's not about chain of command. It's not about, you know, oh, you know, how dare you talk to my boss without me? Like that doesn't do anybody any good. And so we have to throw that out the window. Otherwise, their needs aren't met and they will just end up essentially leaving or being a bad actor in your organization. Pregarded management tip, it's rarely about you, but enough about me. I said most of this was about my experience, but all of these are formations of what I would like all of you to consider and ask of your leader. If you've had none of these conversations, what are their beliefs? What is their style of management? You know, are they burnout? Are they, you know, anything? Like the conversations need to start happening. I've seen and been to so many places where there are no conversations that's a strict, here's work, I'm going back to my office. Here's work, I'm going back to my office, which I think is a really unhelpful, unhealthy thing for our industry. So what are some things to specifically look and ask for out of your leader and things that I try to do with folks on our teams? So Pregarded management tip, when a crew member's behavior changes significantly, inquire and investigate, it could be important. So again, be on the lookout for those personality changes, visit attendance, deadlines, anything out of the norm with that relationship you have with those folks. Some of this just may be pure stress right, organize, organize, organize. I'm a big believer in to-do lists, if for no other reason than it keeps me from forgetting, but also so I can set it and forget it and not try to stress and remember everything. And I encourage team members to do the same. It's very important that both myself and members of the teams provide and ask for clear direction, right? So if you tell me you need something, be very clear about what that is. It's like, I don't think this is going well, but be very concrete of, I'm working on this problem, I can't get this resource, can you help me with it? And on the opposite spectrum, not just saying, oh, we have this problem, can you go fix it? But okay, we have this problem, here's the background, here's the situation, here are some resources, maybe you can use, let's talk in a couple of days after you've done some research. And no procrastination, no lone wolves. So not letting myself procrastinate and wait to the end, because I find that adds to the stress in the same way with team members, right? Make sure there's a constant feedback loop as often as you can, and no lone wolves. The most dangerous team member, more often than not, isn't the person who may not be performing the most exciting tasks or not the quote, unquote rock star developer, it's the person who will go off and go work on a thing with no contact with the rest of the team for weeks at a time. In same way with leadership, right? Like I need to be in constant communication for the team, with the team, for the team's sake, because otherwise they will feel like they don't have any direction or they're not involved or they're not empowered to make those decisions. Next, per card management tip. Show crew members how impressed you are with their accomplishments and validation matters. So everybody likes to be told they're valued. Everybody needs to hear that. And even if they think they're not doing well, they're probably doing well. And that will help not only build trust, but help them over that hump of, you know, maybe they feel burnout or vulnerable, overly vulnerable or that they're not performing the job as they expect. Some ways to combat this is set goals, have a goal style, you know, are they technical goals, career goals, one, three, five year career kind of goals, like where do you see yourself in two years? Do you want to go technical? Would you like to be a leader? Would you like to stick to technical team leading? You know, having those conversations, knowing and having those career direction conversations. Personal development plans for each person in the group, right? So you should be, as a leader, I should be talking to everybody in the group on a frequent basis and saying, okay, there is where you are, if this is where you want to go, here are some milestones we need to achieve. Conversely, again, because this is about making your manager a better leader for you, they should be having these conversations with you. And if they're not, ask them to have these conversations, it shouldn't just be a one and done yearly review. As part of that, we tend to do a six month cadence of peer reviews, where we will gather and anonymize for feedback from two or three of each person's peers and deliver that, and also regular one-on-one. So I'll speak to everybody in the group probably once every two weeks. If I don't get flashed in meetings, hopefully sooner with stand-ups. But these things should start to line up, right? There should be no surprises if we have one-on-ones every couple weeks when I say, hey, maybe you should provide longer comments in email because people take terse one-liners as you being mean when you're not, that's just your style. Let's try to use more words. And then if they hear that from their peers, that's now validation, right? And then as we go into a yearly review cycle, we can start to evaluate those. Has it gotten better? Has it gotten worse? Did they hear what their peers told and validated for them? Next, required management tip. If a workaholic crew member pursues busy work on Charleave insist that they stop and enjoy their free time. This is very important in our industry. I know Ed is talking about open source mental health and we all probably have those weeks where we work too much, way too much. I know there are some places where that's expected. I personally, I was horrible this on my vacation. I was still checking some emails on Twitter. But typically insist that people, if it's a weekend and you see them online on Slack, on IRC and email, let them know that that's not expected of them and encourage them to not do those things. Conversely, if you're being asked to work nights on weekend weekends or put in those over 40 hours, be weary of that and question that. There are times, we do have times where once or twice a year as a group will need to push and get something finished and out for reasons, business, customer, deadlines. But overall, we need to respect those boundaries and plan regular time off. I also make it a point to have a regular conversation with people every quarter of, okay, if you plan some time out this quarter, take a five day weekend and plan a week out. Hey, I see you're really frustrated and you've been working your butt off for four weeks, like take next week, go. It's really important to get people in that habit of not saving up all their time till the last three weeks of the year. While it's fun to take the last month of the year off, it's more detrimental that they wait that long and that they don't take regular time out for their own mental health and their physical health and to recharge their batteries because we don't want them to be burnt out. Next, per card tip, respond to questions unambiguously and with authority. So the one thing I found that I was really bad at and that I am trying to improve is be clear, be direct. So don't expect that they can read their mind or that they have all the context from all the meanings that you've sat through on their behalf, but be very clear and direct about what it is you need, what the use cases are, what the goals are. Again, I'm not saying that I do a great job at it, but I know that I need to do a better job out of it. On the flip side, again, if you're not getting clear direction from your leader, this is something to ask for, right? Don't accept a task with minimal input, right? Ask them right then and there. If there's anything you don't understand and if there are any goals that aren't spelled out, the sooner the better. Be honest with folks about the goal and the task and expect the same. Again, all of these are really a two-way street. And so one last thing that I actually got on Twitter that sort of speaks to this talk was from Fantastic Ms. Fox. It says, a note on leadership. There is no need for a job title to enable you to be a leader. There's no required prominence to speak change, to spark change. So again, while we may think of managers and leaders as a hierarchical chain for HR purposes, a leader is everyone. It is all of us, right? So it is asking these questions of our leader from an HR perspective. It is asking these from our tech leaders in a group before working on a project. It is our jobs to ask these things of our peers, right? It is just important that we have these open relationships and questions and understandings with people that we work with even if they're just a peer, not a tech leader, not a manager, not your VP, not your CTO, like this is across the board. And that's really important that we all start to take. Leadership is something internal that we're all responsible for because in the end that will help us build better groups, better products, and better humans more importantly. So before I move on to questions that have ended my ramble, I highly encourage anybody, if you haven't come put your name in the bucket, I have five or six of these to give away. This book by Camille came out maybe five months ago and I know while it says the manager's path and I've had engineers not want to read it, the truth is this is actually for any leader, peer leader, tech leader, manager, anyone. The first couple chapters even talk about what to expect from your leader and what to expect from your peers and how to become a better leader in that respect. So don't be scared by the word manager in the title. You don't have to want to be a manager to read this book. I encourage everybody that read it, take the time to read it. And lastly, thank you for allowing me to ramble at you for 30 minutes or so. Some stuff online I have on the slides that really sort of helped guide me when I was unsure what kind of leader I wanted to be or what the difference between a manager and a leader was in my life. Some of these are Simon Sinek videos. Has anybody heard of or watched Simon? He's a very profound speaker on leadership. And I put a few links in these slides that I'll tweet out later. Leaders eat last, why some teams pull together and others don't, how great leaders inspire action, your why versus the company's why and always being yourself, which is very important, and the top 10 rules for success. So with that, I will open it up to questions. Yeah, we have a mic somewhere I think too. Oh, we don't get to use it. We have a mic, but sorry. Okay, I will. So the question is, I'll paraphrase, sharing this information with my team, what do I do when new members enter the team? For me, it's a couple things. I have a sort of stock email template that I send out to everybody within the first week that covers, okay, here's my belief system, you know, the sort of the high bullet points of, it's okay to go to my boss if I'm not hearing your problems. It's okay to ask peers to intervene if we need to get a problem fixed. You know, failure is I, success is we. All these things that I talk about, I literally send them an email with sort of my entire, I hate to use the word manifesto because it's got a negative connectivity, but my belief system is a manager, right? Sort of as an entry point for them to know where I stand and what I believe and how they can start to interact with me pretty early on. And then usually it's the first weekend after rookie orientation and a couple weeks of onboarding with their peers, having that first really long one-on-one to go over that email, go over some of these topics, point them at resources like some of those talks and say, okay, this is, as a leader, this is what has guided me, this is what I believe. When we interact, this is gonna help drive how I interact with you and some of my decisions sort of give them that nudge towards how we can work together better. Yep, so paraphrasing, the question is if the person is having personal issues that may be affecting other work, how do you broach that topic without being intrusive? I almost always start with the phrase, it is none of my business and telling me nothing is okay. And then I roll into, I've noticed, you know, you've been absent a lot or you seem aggravated or whatever the case may be and, you know, I give the choice to them. They can tell me as much or as little as they want. The important thing is that we start having that conversation that, okay, something's wrong. You know, are you burnout? If you're having personal issues, fine. Let's schedule some time out, get out of the office, get away from whatever the problem is. If you need time out from work to take care of whatever this may be, you know, I leave that decision in their hands. I just make sure that the door is open. You can tell me as little as you want. You can tell me as much as you want. Important thing is that I acknowledge that there's something different. They're having a problem. They have the opportunity to talk to me in detail or not and that they have an opportunity to take time out and resolve whatever it is. You know, and usually on top of that, add a bit of come back when you're ready. Like, you know, if you have three days left, you need a week, fine. Like, it is more important to me that you're taking care of yourself and you take the time you need, not that we're worried about some deadline and you're gonna be out for that deadline or whatever. Like, again, for me, the personal belief is the person is the more important thing on that. Well, a lot of questions. I love this, go ahead. So, I think this is probably subjective. The question was what is a high level, high performer at a junior or senior level? What do I see them doing? And is this developer leaders or both? So, to me, what I look for are the things I see are people who are taking initiative to solve problems without necessarily waiting to be told. But even more importantly, the people who notice that there are problems in the group and surface those, right? Like, hey, this person has been out a couple days, I'm worried about them, or so-and-so seems more anger than usual, you may wanna talk to them, right? Somebody who is situationally aware of the team's health, even though it's not their responsibility to be situationally aware necessarily. Those are the sort of leaderships that stand out to me. Hopefully that answers your question. Yep. So, the question is if I knew then what I knew now, what advice would I give to myself? Don't? No, I joke. I joke. No, I love my team and I love what I do. My advice would be probably that I should have done this sooner, right? Like, typically, at least in my experience, when somebody interviews for director, senior director, CTO, right? They're being asked to come in with high-level 30, 60, 90 plans or year, two year, five-year visions. And so my advice to me would have been as moving from an individual contributor to a manager or leader is do this sooner, like do this day one, week one for yourself and not wait, right? Not wait until you're comfortable like managing or going through the meetings or sending the emails or telling somebody they have to do something, right? And moving from up here to their leader. I would have done all this early, much earlier, because it would have given me more time to work on building that skill set. You've got about five minutes left. More questions? Shoot. So the question is, what are some of the metrics I use to determine if I'm a good leader? So I would admit that I don't have any good metrics. I should be more, I don't know if it's a thing that should be data-driven. For me, it's, you know, whatever our task is, are we meeting our deadlines consistently, right? Are, is the happiness level up? Do we have a lot of people taking unexpected PTO, you know, signs of burnout? I would say for a while, it was how long we went without attrition, but now I'm a little wiser and know that that just happens for any old reason, and so that's a bad metric, personally. So I don't know that I have any good data-driven metrics to answer that question. A couple more. Yeah, go ahead. So the question is, how much do I know about their work life? How often do I check in, and what do I know about those check-ins? So I typically have one-on-ones, like a 30 minute or an hour if they need it every couple weeks, but that's really not the extent. Those are kind of checkpoints for, hey, is there anything personally that you need to talk about anything work-related we're not covering that you need to talk about? You know, what'd you do this weekend? When's your next vacation? You know, things like that. But more often than not, we're also talking every day either in stand-ups or planning meetings or those kind of things. So it's ongoing. Yep, probably two more questions. Go ahead. Oh, do we? So the question to repeat it for the camera is if you're looking for positions in the industry, how do you seek out these leaders with these sort of beliefs and values? I'd say right up front in the interview. I know a lot of times in interviews we jump to either the text screen or tell me about what you did, do you have any questions? Sometimes it's being in either asking those questions up front as the interviewee or when they say, do you have any questions for us? Well, actually I have a lot of questions and start with the leadership kind of questions first. Tell me about your culture. Do you have one-on-ones? Do you have peer reviews? Do you have yearly reviews? If you're interviewing with an individual manager that is the hiring manager, what are your beliefs around these topics and what's more important to you? The technical aspect or the people and their health, what's your work-life balance policies? Put them on the spot. And if there's hesitation or they don't have a lot of answers, then that tells you what you need to know, I think. If they go down the street and talk about those endlessly and then you start talking about the tech side, then I think you've got a positive sign there that that is a place that is going to be healthy for you to work at. So many questions, let's go back. So the question is, when I'm hiring, do I think that similar personalities work or work better than differing personalities? So early on, I'll admit that I made the mistake of I would hire people based on their fit to the group. And I think that's still an important metric, but for me now it's a much less important metric. The problem obviously we have in tech that we talk about all the time is diversity, right? And not just ethnic diversity or religious diversity, you know, background, but just experience, right? We need people with different experience, which means we need people with a challenge, the status quo. If you have a lot of senior folks, hire a lot of younger folks and force mentorship. If you have a lot of people of the same gender, try hiring out of that. I typically don't try to hire specific metrics, but what I will do is tell the recruiter, hey, I need diversity. And whatever that means to you and your policies and the company, let's get more of it. Like I want people who will challenge, oh, we've done this thing for three years, why are we doing that? And force us to have that diversity of thought more than anything else. Because that's really what's gonna drive the strength of the team and break us out into better solutions. And not do things the way we've always done it. Okay, more questions? Yeah. Yeah, I think, so the question is, with Lone Wolf, some people work better alone, and how do you foster that? Versus people who need to work with the team, if I understand the question correctly. I think it's, step one is obviously recognizing who those people are and make sure that they have the relevant work. And really it's about setting expectation, right? So if the people really are need to work alone, that's fine, but they also need to over-communicate, right? It's almost like being a remote worker. So Rackspace is in San Antonio. Some of my team is in San Antonio. Some of the team is spread across the US. I live in Ohio. And so part of being remote is you have to over-communicate, right? Because we're not sitting next to each other. We don't get to see our successes and our failures and hear about them firsthand. And it's the same way I think with Lone Wolf. There are people who need quiet, who need to work alone, who need that time to focus, who don't need context which is getting in their way. But you need to identify who those people are, give them the space to do it, but ensure that they're also following that up with communication. Because that's their responsibility. If you need that time alone to focus, you need to over-communicate with the team. Okay, here's the progress I made today. Here's the problems I'm facing. Here's what I'm gonna work on tomorrow. Because without that, you may find yourself three, four weeks down the road with no progress or the wrong progress or a solution that was to the wrong problem. So the question is, how do I manage conflicting personalities and people? So it depends on the conflict and the trust level that I have established with both of those people, right? If somebody trusts you enough to say, hey, this person I don't really get along with, then you can have that conversation of, okay, well, why is it something they're doing? Is it their communication style? Let's look at their top five strengths finders. Like maybe they're a communicator, maybe they're woo, right? And you're not all about the communication, the woo. You wanna go lone wolf, right? And that's the thing that's conflicting, right? If there isn't that trust level where somebody will come to me about the problem, then you just have to start to drive that through one-on-ones and start to say, hey, I noticed a couple of conversations and there was a little bit tension here. Tell me about that situation and what frustrates you and have that conversation with the other person without letting them know that that's what you're doing with everybody and then be able to drive that to some sort of progress or a solution. Yeah, so the question, sorry, and I cut out for a couple words there, was what do you do with managers or leaders who maybe aren't receptive to the feedback? Try, try again, keep trying. Again, at least for me, this is that part of, feel free to always go around me and to my boss or appear in another department that I have a working relationship because sometimes that ego may get in the way, they may not be hearing it correctly and so trying that other avenue may be a best bet where I can have, let's say the leader from support come over to me and say, hey, one of your folks came to me and said that they're frustrated with the feedback they got from you or they're having this problem with X, Y, or Z and sometimes just like developers may not believe that there's something they should work on until they hear it from their peers, it's the same way with leaders, right? We have the same problems, we're the same humans. Sometimes we need to hear it from a peer instead of a person who we have a hierarchical relationship with. Yeah, four minutes, any other questions? No one? All right, well, thank you everybody, I appreciate it. I have David Gupt.