 Felly, ychydig i gŵr ar y dyledig wneud hon yn ein gael gyda sefydliadau. Yn ymgyrchu ei awdd i gyflym yn yr ymgyrchu, rydyn ni'n gyffredig fod y dyledig, gan adnodd y wneud ffaith i gael i'r syniad mewn gafodd yr adnodd? Mae gennym yn ddweud, rydyn ni'n olyg diodd yr ymgyrchu. Mae hynny'n iddydd. Yn e'r cael meddwl ymgyrch? Yn ymgyrch. Yn ymgyrch, ac mae'n cyfeirio'n crf animals, dyna'r adnodd mwy fyddiad. Thank you. Thank you very much, Erin. Welcome everyone. Thank you for coming today. Just to remind you, we have the press with us today. The public can see what our activities are today. Item two on the agenda is introductions and the procedure. First of all, I'll introduce myself. I am Councillor Anna Bradnam. I'm one of the members for Milton and Water Beach Ward. I'm Councillor Croy and Garvey. I'm the councillor. I'm Councillor Joe Sales for the Melbourne Ward. Thank you. Let's go round the table. Thank you. I'm Chloe Mathildorum. I'm environmental health practitioner in the environmental waste team here. Thank you. Good afternoon. My name is Brooke O'Neill and I'm the licensing technical officer. Brooke's had a long morning. So good morning. I'm Rachel Jackson. I'm the principal officer for licensing. Thank you. Hi, my name is Hailey Cousins. I'm the support officer for licensing. Thank you very much. I should have asked you to introduce yourself first, but do go ahead. I'm Ciaran Bai from Democratic Services. Paul Weller. I'm the legal advisor to the panel this morning. Thank you. Erin Clark, Democratic Services, technical officer. Chair, could I just ask if you're just going to remind people, please use your microphones when speaking please, because this is broadcast out live to the public and they can't hear you if you don't turn the microphone on. So just the right hand button, please. Thank you. I'll try and remind you to use your microphones. Okay. So first, does anybody have any declarations of interest amongst the members? Chair, I don't have a declaration of interest per se, but as I've announced there, I'm the councillor for Melbourne, so this premises falls into my ward. I'd just like to state that I don't know the applicant. I haven't been to their premises and I come to this application. I'm predetermined and with a fresh eyes. Thank you very much, Councillor Hales. So welcome everyone and thank you for attending. So we hold this hearing as a discussion and I'd like everyone to treat everybody with all the due respect that you would normally expect in a discussion. We'll be able to ask questions of all parties and we'll be advised by our legal adviser, Paul Weller. And I believe Erin Clarke will be clerking the meeting or is that Kira? So Kira Ryby will be clerking the meeting, taking the notes of the meeting. So, firstly, particularly like Mr Thake, just to explain, you've served the notice and you've said you want the extra hours on top of your existing licence, but please would you specify to us exactly what is the area that your current licence actually covers, the actual footprint of what your licence covers and what area the 10 applies to if you'd be so kind. I'm sorry, we haven't got a map in front of us, but if you could explain, that would be helpful. The inside of the building is all a licensing area and where we want to do the 10, we've got a little base up the back and we want to do a small marquee there and I think it's 1am, and then inside the courtyard until later on. OK, so I have looked at the map and I'm aware that you have, when you look at the coach house hotel from the A505, there's a, according to Google, a children's play area on a field to the left, but that's not the area that you're talking about. And I noticed that there's a field behind, but are either, those aren't the areas that you're considering? It's the courtyard in between all the rooms. OK. Where it would be laid and out the back behind the rooms. Is there a field out there? Yeah, if I make the field. Madam, if I may assist at the moment, I notice that Mr Thake hasn't got a copy of the bundle with him, I've let him have my plan B, but within the bundle there is a map. Can I ask you to mark the area on here, sir? Yeah. Probably assist members in understanding the geography. I've let you mine, but there's a courtyard there. That's where we plan to have it. It's just there, so it's behind the buildings. We do have a small one out here, and that's still one there. A small what out there? I'll clear you up there with a little ear tent. But that's late on, it's just in there. So the area covered by the temporary event notice is going to be outside. There and there. If that's OK. That's what we... So if I mark that area there, that's going to be for what? The music, yeah. I feel like music. And there's a marquee. Yeah, there's just one over speed. They sit out there. What sort of area am I looking at? I'll tell you that. Twice as I was at this little area. OK, so if I put the marquee... If I put an area... Yeah, that's it. Like that? Yeah. If I call that using basic language, a beard tent... Yeah. And then they have a bit of DJ music, but they don't have it that way. It's just... I don't know if they were the DJs that came in. But it's background music. It's sometimes a bit loud, isn't it? Then you play it. Yeah, OK. Let's put that right there. You're happy with that there? Yeah. And what's that building in between? Rooms. And all the rooms are out to the people that come to the music. So there's nobody, there's no guests. Other than... Yeah. Coming out behind the table, you join the three of you. That's a bad picture. It's basically a bit of art, which may have some DJ music in there. Where the white bit is? That bit? On there? Yeah. Those are only to those attending. The walkway will be round the outfield. Are you the boys, Aaron? No. Large stick. Room handle. So this is a gap, isn't it? Yeah, there's a gap there. So will people walk through there to get to the attend? No, they go that way. Only that way they go. That way is blocked off, so they can't go that way. Keep fit, all can all go out there. It's all right. Can you just... I imagine that this only is your current licensed premises. Yeah. Cos that's the hotel itself. Yeah, look. So is it all of that range? Yeah, the restaurant. All of it across the front. But not including this. This is a range of... Their rooms. So it's from here across to there? Yeah, that's it. So it's not going back into here? No. Okay, so that's the hotel and the restaurant there? That's it, yeah. Okay. You've got it. Yeah, that's it. That right side is the back of the hotel. You go where the fountain is. You go to the main road. That goes into the main building. Yeah, that's over the other side. That's the building you said you've got for? Yeah, building. Others, yeah. We do do the beer inside as well. It's an overspill marquee. Yeah, it was worth it. That always finishes about half-twelve-one o'clock out there. No, no. No, but when they have it, they always finish outside half-twelve-one o'clock. Tracy, she likes events twice a year. That's all we have. The lady who runs the event. No, no. That's the she soul people. The she? Yeah, yeah. I do apologise. Sorry, I was to clarify to people who are listening online if there are any. I've just been asking Mr Take. He said that the overspill marquee was used regularly and I was asking under what circumstances. I think I understood you to say Mr Take that the lady in question who is the referred to in the title of the event that you want to run, which is she gives you joy. Thank you. She is the lady who runs those events. Right, thank you. Okay, so now I'd like to ask Ms Mappledorum if you could explain the nature of your... Madam, sorry. We spoke about this slightly earlier and I forgot to mention that the licensing officer has prepared a report. She should open with that. Because this is a notice given by the premises, it will be... Environmental services... I was going to say application is not quite... They've brought it to the matter. The licensing officer will give their report. We're here the details of the objection and then we're here from the applicant or from the premises. These are unusual hearings. We've got to get the terminology right and I may not do so every time. We'll all try and get it as right as we can. If Ms Mappledorum could present her report, that would be most helpful. Sorry, the licensing officer. Thank you, Chairman. Thank you for what you meant. So for the background, on the 4th of August 2022, Mr Thakes admitted a temporary event notice. This is attached as Appendix A. The event is described as follows. It's for the 17th of September 2022. The nature of the event is a sole night. And the licenceable activities include the sale by retail of alcohol for consumption on the premises and relevant entertainment, which is music. The licenceable times requested, which are 11 p.m. until 4 a.m., the premises licence already covers from... Sorry, 11 p.m. until 4 a.m. and the premises licence already covers from 11 a.m. till 11 p.m. The number of people in attendance at any one time is 400 people. A map of the area for intended use is attached as Appendix A. This is doing it of its own volition. It is quite noisy. A statutory noise nuisance was confirmed by Environmental Health on 22 August 2021 and subsequently a noise abatement notice was served on the applicant Mr David Bake on 10 September 2021. This notice was not appealed and is attached as Appendix C. The temporary event notice was sent to Environmental Health and the police on 4 August, which was the same day that the ten was received. On 5 August 2022, an objection was received from Environmental Health. There was no objection from the police. This is attached as Appendix D of the report. Section 104 of the Licensing Act 2003 provides that we are a relevant person, i.e. the chief officer of police or the environmental health service, are satisfied that allowing a premises to be used in accordance with the temporary event notice would undermine a licensing objective. That relevant person is required to give notice, so in this case an objection notice, stating the reasons for being so satisfied. So in this case the licensing objective is the prevention of public nuisance. In circumstances where an objection notice has been given and not withdrawn, and the licensing authority has determined not to give account to notice under Section 105, the authority may impose one or more conditions on the standard temporary event notice if. A, the authority considers it appropriate for the promotion of the licensing objectives. If the conditions are already imposed on the premises licence that has effect in respect of the premises. C, the conditions would not be inconsistent with the carrying out of the licence for activities under the temporary event notice. The subcommittee is asked to determine the notification of this TEM under Section 105 of the Licensing Act, and the subcommittee may either A, issue the counter notice, B, impose conditions on the temporary event notice, or C, grant the notice. That concludes my introduction, Chairman. Thank you very much, Ms O'Neill. So Mr Wella, I'm assuming we now take the report from the Environmental Health Department. Unless anybody has any questions of the licensing officer by way of clarification, yes Madam. Thank you very much. So I'd like to give this to your report, Ms McAdorn. Thank you Chair. So in May 2021 it goes back that far that I've been involved with the case. We had a notification of a temporary event notice for multiple dates in July 2021. However, only one was granted because it was an invalid application for the subsequent three. So the events that weren't covered by the temporary event notices still went ahead, and subsequently we received a number of complaints from people in the local area. After we received a number of those complaints, we started an investigation for statutory nuisance, and the licence holder was advised of this. A late temporary event notice was actually applied for again in August for another event later that month, which was not objected to however the complainants that we already had were given the noise app details. This is August 2021. The event went ahead with the temporary event notice in place, and we received a number of recordings on the noise app, which were extremely excessive noise, and I think the last recording we had was at 10 past 2 in the morning, on the application it said that the music would be going inside at 1.30. These recordings were after 2 o'clock, and they were still excessive. We could tell where the recordings were taking place because we have a GPS locator on the app, and it was excessive. Would it be helpful to listen to that particular recording now? I don't believe we need to, because the noise abatement notice was made based on the evidence that we had at the time, which was the noise app recordings. The procedure was followed, and the noise abatement notice was served as a result of that. So I don't believe that we need to, I don't know that we can. Can I just ask the members, would you like to hear the noise? It would be in context for us, but... Chao, through you. I would appreciate input from the legal side of this, because we've already had an explanation for environmental. My concern is, as the Environmental Health Officer says, is that the noise recording had an outcome in that an abatement notice was issued. Therefore, by the issue of an abatement notice, the determination is that your officers deemed it to be a statutory nuisance. Whether or not, if you hear it, it's going to take away from, or may take away from that decision. The reality is that the noise on that occasion was such that your officers issued a noise abatement notice having deemed a statutory nuisance as being committed. Thank you very much, Mr Waller. So thank you very much. Thank you. Subsequently, the noise abatement notice was issued on 10 September 2021 on Mr David Fakethake. This was not appealed. 21 days are given for appeal, and we didn't receive an appeal or any contact from Mr Fakethake at all. There was a subsequent event on 18 September 2021, which I monitored, and it did go ahead with no excessive noise. So I sent a letter to Mr Fakethake thanking him for that, and it was obvious that an event could take place without excessive noise. So we closed our case at the end of September 2021, as we had no further complaints at that time. In June 2022, a temporary event notification was received for later that month, 25th to 26th of June, clearly stating that they would go inside at 1.30, and that was in relation to the music. We had no objections from the Business Support Office that it wasn't passed to me for consultation at that point. I noticed on the 16th of June that that internal process had not been followed, and therefore the temporary event notice had been applied for, which is why I then reminded Mr Fakethake that he had a noise abatement notice in place. I didn't have any contact from Mr Fakethake as a result of that letter. The event took place on 25th, 26th of June 2022. Noise at recordings were received. Again, the last one was after 2 o'clock in the morning and it was extremely loud, it was excessive, and the GPS location showed where the recordings were taken. Further complaints from three of the original complainants came into us following that event, and as such I started an investigation into a breach of the noise abatement notice, and that starts with diary sheets going out to the complainants, which is part of the similar process to when we start a noise investigation. An event was organised on the 9th of July 2022. The event went ahead and there was no excessive noise as it finished at 9 o'clock in the evening. Complainants said that there was no issues with that one. I was due to monitor the premises on the 30th of July as there was a festival advertised called WR Fest. Due to go till 1 o'clock in the morning, that event did not occur. I did put noise equipment in some complainant's property, and that wasn't required. On the 4th of August 2022, I was consulted upon, in relation to the temporary event notification for the 17th of September, where the music is required until 4 o'clock in the morning. It wasn't specified in the application, whether it was outside or inside. However, in my opinion, 400 people would not fit inside the property. Therefore, I objected to the application or the notification due to the excessive noise that had been experienced previously and the noise abatement notice being breached. Thank you very much. Thank you. I have some questions. So, the noise abatement notice remains in place once it's been served. That's right, yes. The second thing was that on the 10th notification, on the 8th of June 2022, for the 25th and 26th of June 2022, you said that the report says that there were no objections from the business support officer, but it wasn't passed to environmental health for consultation. Should that have been done? The business support officer is part of environmental health. If the application includes hours after 11 o'clock, it should come to me. It didn't, which is why I then reminded this to think that the abatement notice was still in place. Madam, if I can at that point, insofar as that is concerned, the history is that a temporary abatement notice was received, no objections were made to it. Whatever the reason for no objections, no objections were made. No, that's fine. I just wanted to check whether that was just normal procedure that it should go, and that would have been the case. Thank you very much. The other thing I wanted to ask, but I just wanted to be careful about it, and I'll ask legal first, would it be acceptable to ask, we have reference to the 26th of June, and the noise app recordings were received, and the last one was at 02.11, and the GPS location shows the complainant at their own property. Is it reasonable to ask where that property is? Insofar as, I suppose, proximity. For example, has that person asked for them to be remaining anonymous? At the moment, I don't know if there's an investigation undergoing, or whatever the state's investigation is, all I can say is if there is an investigation undergoing, we are not at the end of the period by which proceedings need to be commenced, so it can be treated as ongoing. I suppose the relevance is, rather than identifying the property, proximity within 50 metres, 100 metres, whatever, 200 metres, something along those lines if you can give an indication. I'm not sure I would be able to give an indication, however, in terms of statutory nuisance, one person or 100 people can be affected, and if it's deemed to be a statutory nuisance of that property, then it is a statutory nuisance. I will ask you first, so I won't ask, but are we talking about premises on this side of the road or on that side of the road? Is that reasonable to ask? Madam, that might give an indication that would assist you, because it may well be an ongoing. I don't want to go too deeply into it. Can I just ask, is it on the south side of the A505, or was the complainant on the north side? May I just say that when investigating statutory nuisances, from a property, we are likely to go to the nearest affected property, so we did have five complainants, both north of that road and south, but the recordings would be taken from the nearest property. Okay, that's helpful. In fact, I can't identify which properties were involved. But in fact, complaints were received from both sides? Both sides, yes. Did you have anything? Yes, thank you. I'm going to take you back to the 29th of September entry in your report. You said that the noise abatement notice still stands, which I accept fully. Could you explain why and how long that stands, please? A noise abatement notice, it doesn't have an end date. It will stay forever, unless the person who owns property changes or... I think that's probably the only way that that would, because it was served on this person at that premises, so it's an unending notice. Another question, Sharon. I'm going to look at the legal adviser, as I asked the question, and you'll tell me no or yes. On page one, it's the 25th of July 2021, where it says five complaints and above that makes reference to the 10s licence that covers one of those four events, three one licence, essentially. My question, Mr Weller, would be, was any action taken by the authority for the three? It would appear from what the officer has said, the outcome of those complaints was the issue of the noise abatement notice. That's correct, isn't it? I'll just clarify you relating to the fact that the events went ahead without the temporary event notices. That's out of my remit, so I believe that he was spoken to by the licensing team. Thank you very much. Clarify a point there. I had questions on that as well. Given that 110 was submitted for four dates, it was used for one date, but the other three events carried on without being licensed, did the officers at that point address that with Mr Fak that he needed to submit three more 10s for the other event? Yes, so when we received the notification of a 10 with the four dates on, Mr Fak was advised that he could not use that temporary event notice for all four dates and must apply for three separate ones. But he didn't. I'm afraid we did, because we paid for them as well. We applied for three separate ones once we were told we couldn't do it. So you maintain that when you were told that your 10 had been filled out incorrectly, you submitted three more 10s? Yes, and my daughter done it online. They weren't. The licensing office didn't receive them. Did you do it online? I presume she did. That's what she normally does. We paid for them as far as I know. I'd like to check and get back on your bank account. I'm sure they went out. OK, so you maintain that you did apply for a further three 10s, but licensing says they didn't receive them. OK. I know the one that we got the noise about before was a drum and bass night, which we'd never have again, because they ripped us off. Because what? They ripped us off, they told us a noise wouldn't be too loud and that, and we couldn't make them stop. OK. Which one was that? Can you remember what date that was? That's when the young lady gave us a noise abatement for. OK. Right. So, yes, was that the 10th of September one? Yes. That was when it was so late. Yes. OK. Right. OK. Licensing was a great reply about those notices. Would the licensing officer like to comment about the assertion from Mr Thake that he did send in further 10s? Yes. So, we would have... This would have been the July 2021. Yeah. I can't... I don't think that we received them. OK. Thank you. Right. So, have the officers any further explanations or clarifications to make? Do we have any further clarifications to request from the officers? So, Mr Thake, would you like to put your point of view? Well, we only have... That she only have two events a year, usually during September. Sorry. Could you bring your microphone a little bit closer? Absolutely. And I know we're here in a room, but there'll be other people listening elsewhere. So, if you could speak clearly, let's go. The sheer event, they only want two every year in June, September, and they're the only two late nights we have because everything else we have is always done by midnight. We have an east fest there, and they had one out. They said it was finished at 9 o'clock, so it must have been quiet because it didn't finish till 11 o'clock. So, all them other events are always done by 12 o'clock. It's just those two events. That's all she wants a year. And a couple of the people who have complained about them, we've offered to put them in a hotel in Cambridge or wherever they want with meals for the night. And they said, no, we'll be fine. So, I don't know what else we can do with that. So, please them, you know what I mean? So, the event that you've applied for, the She, let's call it the She event, for the 17th of September, on the day of the event. Can I just ask why, given that you've had concerns about noise later at night on prevyscations, why are you applying until 4 o'clock? Well, the last one was half-three, so we thought we'd just do it till 4 and make sure everything's cleared up. Because they just play background music while they're clearing up. So, I thought I'd better do it till 4 to make sure it's covered. But knowing that you've had complaints about noise, and the last one was after 2 o'clock in the morning, did you not think it would be better to finish it earlier? We don't even know how loud it was. Did you not think it would be better to finish it earlier? I thought the law was 107 decibels, and they were on to keep it at 95. So... Can I just ask for the Environmental Health Practitioner to speak to us about that? In terms of statutory nuisance, it could be very low decibel level and still be a statutory nuisance. The thing is, you have festivals that are noisy. People know that. You have them all over the country. Does that mean everybody to get theirs cancelled if they're near people? That's what I can't understand. The principle is not... We've got eight houses that are close to us. That's all we've got. Eight houses, and any one of them is entitled to enjoy peaceful enjoyment of the world. Mr Fate, when I'm speaking, I would appreciate it if you would wait. Thank you. Mr Podoron, would you like to explain the nature of the public nuisance? Yes, statutory nuisance is a subjective assessment based on a number of things, not just the level of noise, but the number of people affected, the locality. In my opinion, a festival of this nature is not... It's inappropriate when you've got houses in that close proximity to that time in the morning. Can you confirm, if Mr Fate's assertion that there are only eight residential properties close by, is that correct? I haven't counted how many properties are close by. I can say that we have had complaints from five separate properties. Some are not willing to make a complaint because they don't wish to go through that process, but we were contacted by five. I just did a quick totter on Google Maps this morning, and it seemed to me there were a total of about 21 buildings, some of them may just be business premises, but quite close to the Coach House Hotel. Mr Fate, I asked you why you chose to go to put your 10 until four o'clock in the morning when you knew you had an abatement notice and you knew you'd had complaints before. Can you just explain that point? We didn't know we had complaints on the last day until you applied for another 10. But your 10 applies until four o'clock in the morning. I'm just asking why you didn't ask to finish it earlier. We didn't think we had a complaint for the last one because we weren't told, but apparently you don't find out until you apply for another 10. It would be nice if they told us straight away. We've got the situation where we know that there are around about 20 other properties nearby. Some are not residential, but there have been complaints from five and contact from eight at different times about different events that you've had at the property. Can I just ask you whether you recognise that the events that you've had do cause a nuisance at all? I know that. Sorry. There was an incident or there was an event that took place at the end of June. Environmental services may well be undertaken in investigation. You are potentially asking the premises to confirm whether or not he is aware that an abatement notice was breached in a public hearing which may well be deemed to be an admission of guilt. I think you need to tread carefully down that route. Thank you very much. Members, have we any further questions? I'm very familiar with the area, obviously. There aren't that many residential properties in that area, which is mainly commercial. There aren't many. I'm quite interested as to the cut-off point. I leave at 3.30 or 4 o'clock in the morning. It seems to be quite late for an event period, especially when it starts at 1 o'clock. I think it was in the afternoon. From what you said earlier, it seems to be out of your control. This is somebody running events on your premises, but I would imagine that you benefit from that. There is some element of control that I would have expected, and I suppose my colleagues would expect you to exert. We've also heard, which wasn't surprise to me, that there is no noise level, upper limit or whatever for nuisance. That was a learning curve this morning. The music is played inside the premises with music spilling outside, or is it in the courtyard? It's at the full volume, as it would be in Dover. There have been 95 decibels, but they say it's nuisance. Right, so there's no... I can actually understand if you have music quite loud. Would you mind turning your mic off? Cancel each other out. It's the Ryan button. I can understand if this music played indoors, windows and doors shut, and what I have here is a usual requirement, if I recall. The impact outside will be reduced as a result. If you have the volume of the music the same in and out, then that is a fairly significant impact. I wonder, is there any control over that from your side, the person, she is it, the lady, whether there's any control from you over that to reduce the volume outside? Is there dancing and stuff outside in the courtyard, or is it just people sitting around drinking and talking? Are they calling it dancing, but they just sort of jig around and have a drink? We could, I've spoke to about night, put in the music inside, if we had the windows open so it doesn't annoy so the music comes out that way, take the edge off the music. I don't know what you think on that one. That's what I was thinking actually, because when you look at the layout of your courtyard, if the windows or doors to the rear of the building were open from the premises, and the music was played out that way with no outside speakers, there is a potential for impact for the noise to bounce back to the main building. I'm going to be probably looking at the environmental guidance on this, but it kind of makes sense if there was no outside speakers that would drastically reduce the impact on the environment. I can't imagine that the event that is proposed is likely to be done from inside if you're having 400 guests. Now, there's 300. They're not going to have more than 300. And the music will be played outside? Well, if we do like... Outside the building, so we didn't courtyard. It would be normally, but I wasn't suggesting if we put the music inside, then people would be inside and the rest of them would be outside if you know what I mean. So, you get half and we go inside and half will be outside, but the music will be actually inside. My concern is that there are also residential premises to the north of here, so it's not just residential premises to the south, and there would be a need to clarify speakers would all need to be... The discussion may well be interested, but you have limited options on this application, because we're dealing with a temporary event notice. It's either approved or there's no temporary event, or you can add on the conditions that already appear on the premises licence. You can't add other conditions to suit the event as it were, so you can only use the conditions that are currently on the premises licence. One other thing, I just wanted to ask you... Sorry madam. Do we adjourn to make our decision, or do we make our decision in... As always, on these things, we retire to private to make the decision. Thank you. Can you remind us what the current premises licence are, that as Mr Weller has explained, we might apply in addition... I think they're pretty minimal, aren't they, at the moment? It's just supply of alcohol to 2300, roughly speaking, and that it's open to the public. Do you want to explain? Thank you, Chair. So it's just the mandatory conditions on the licence, and the reason being is there is only the supply of alcohol as a licence for activity. Actually, going back to the suggestion that Councillor Hales was perhaps working towards this, that wouldn't help us, would it, in this situation. Okay, and Mr Weller has helpfully reminded us that we can only either agree with this licence, or object to it, or add conditions, as we've described that wouldn't necessarily help in this case. Sorry. It's for licence, and if I may, through you, Chair, just to clarify with the premises licence as it is for the main building, there is no entertainment licence, there's no playing of music licence, there's no nothing, it's literally alcohol. Yes. Okay, so do you have any for Councillor Hales? Do you have any for... None that I can now ask. Mr Thake, do you want to make any further representations to us before we think about our decision? We had these events before lockdown, and there was never no complaints. It's only since certain people have moved in near licence premises that we've had complaints. But they knew what happens at licence premises before they move in. So what are we meant to do? With or due respect, Mr Thake, your licence premises are licence for sale of alcohol. No, but when we do the temporary events, you know, it's always been the same. I know one of them who's complained when she was with a different boyfriend. He loved it, but now she's got a different boyfriend. He complains all the time. I think it's inappropriate to bring individual personal matters into this. So, Members, I think we'll retire to consider our decision now. Thank you very much to everybody who's presented to us. Thank you very much, Mr Thake, for putting your point. We'll try not to take too long, but we'll come to a decision as soon as we can. Madam, if I can before you retire, just one or two, probably general words of advice, rather than specific words of advice, some of which I've said already, but the issue before you this morning is with regard to the temporary event notice only, as within the documentation. Madam, you've heard that there have been issues in the past. Those may or may not be subject to enforcement action. The earlier ones do not appear to be subject to enforcement action for whatever reason, but the reality is that you can take... The issues you consider is, one, that there is an abatement notice in place. Dealing with noise. So, noise is a difficult area. There's always heavy reliance within the wider community upon decibel levels. A statutory nuisance is based against the ambient background noise. Is that the right terminology? Essentially, yes. It's part of the assessment, but it... So, a loud noise in a noisy environment is not a statutory nuisance. A loud noise within a quiet environment is a statutory nuisance. There was stats issued some time back about the noise coming from tennis players at Wimbledon, which at any event could have been deemed to be a statutory nuisance only because centre court was quiet. Because it's a temporary event notice, your options are limited. The first one, according to the report, is issue account notice. Basically, account notice is a notice saying the event can't go ahead. You can impose conditions on a temporary event notice, but you can only impose conditions that currently exist on the premises licence because this temporary event notice is limited to premises. Or you can grant the notice. Those are the only three options available to you. Madam, unless there's anything else in particular I can help you or your colleagues with. Thank you. That's very helpful to have that summarised. Two things I want to clarify. The environmental health practitioner pointed out that there is no limit on the noise when it constitutes the statutory nuisance. That meant there is no lower limit. So it can be incredibly quiet, but if it's loud compared to the ambient noise at the time, that can be just as disruptive as a loud noise in a loud environment. Just to clarify, the only conditions we could apply must be some which pre-exist on the current licence and the current licence is only for alcohol, so we don't have any conditions. Madam, that is correct. Councillor Hales. Through you, Chair, to Mr Weller. Mr Weller, am I at liberty to ask Mr Faker a question at this time? Mr Faker, am I allowed to ask Mr Faker another question? At this point. It's important that when you make a decision, you have all relevant information before you, so yes. In that case, Mr Faker, on the previous she event, and you're talking about 300 people invited or attending to get sold, how many people are there at 3 o'clock in the morning by comparison to how many turn up at whatever time it starts? I should say somewhere around half. In that case, there was a comment made in the report about the capacity of the actual main building, the pub itself. Sorry, Councillor, a temporary event note just covers any event that will have up to 500 people. So that's the number that we're looking at for today. I'm driving at something fractionally slightly different, if I may. If I overstep, you'll please step in. Essentially, what is the capacity of your pub? I mean, I understand there's a restaurant attached to the building itself. You can sit 70 in the restaurant and probably about 40, 50 in the bar, but when they're at that sort of event, they don't sit down, they just stand. So you could easily get 150 in the restaurant and into the bar area. How far regulations go to, I think it's 150, if I remember rightly? OK, thank you. So my question to Mr Weller now is given that the premises licence for alcohol only exists within the main premises, when we go into the deliberation, we will be able to consider some form of bringing the party indoors. No, sir, you can't. You've only got those three options available to you. Because the current licence is purely for alcohol on the premises, we can't make any other suggestions that are out with the premises conditions. It is possible with a view to timing that a further application for a temporary event notice could be served dealing with an event inside the premises before the 17th of September, but the premises is under the same constraint that complaints or representations may well be received from environmental health and or the police. How long away, we're within 10 days, aren't we? So it would be a late notice. Yes, in which case it would not go to a hearing. If a late notice is received, then if there is any objection from the police or environmental health, automatically the notice has a counter notice issued against it and the event does not take place. You were trying to ruin my day, so I think what I'm trying, obviously we're here to do our job, but we're also here to try and be as affable as we possibly can within the system, I would hope. So my thoughts are that if this is something which is a potential solution. Sir, it can't be a potential solution because you cannot tie the hands of the police or environmental services who may well raise an objection if they receive another temporary event notice. In other words, we can only act as you've advised us and the only way that it could be made any more likely to happen for Mr Thake is if he submitted a late temporary event notice that described his event in a different manner. That's correct, but on a late notice there is no appeal to councillors if there is any objection received. But people could still complain, but it would then be dealt with by environmental health. A late notice would, if there would be a counter notice that would mean the event would not happen and you can't suggest that route because you will be tying the hands of two other agencies, only one of which is within this building. Sorry, what I was saying was the options available to us here today are limited and as far as I can see we haven't decided whether we'll grant or whether we'll put a counter notice, but if Mr Thake was not successful today his only recourse would be to submit a further 10 that described his event differently, it would not come to a panel, it would simply be considered by the officers including the police and the licensing and environmental health officer and it would be for them to make a decision. Yep, thank you. In that case, that's what I was driving at, so through you, Chair, would it be prudent that when we go into recess for our discussion now that the licensing team or perhaps even the legal I don't know would explain that to the applicant in the greatest of detail and the risks involved in case our deliberation goes one way or the other so that the applicant is absolutely fully aware that when he leaves this building he has all the facts at his disposal and he can make that choice himself. I'm quite happy that the officers would I'm sure explain that and I think given that we've mooted that as a possible thing that Mr Thake might do I'm sure you would, would you not? Yes. Thank you very much. Okay, so I think we have all the information so when we go into our deliberations the legal officer will stay with us but the remaining officers will leave us and we'll call you back in when we've made our decision. Mr Thake, thank you very much indeed. Thank you. Okay, men. People who might be watching on the live stream the live stream will end now and we will go into confidential session. I'm just going to ask the Democratic Services Officer if it will come up again when we make our decision. No, okay. So the decision will be informed on the website and by letter to the...