 Welcome to the wide world of eSports, a show devoted to all things eSports. I'm your host, Catherine Norr. Today we're talking about South Korean eSports. With me today is Baro Gunn, the author of Demystifying eSports. Welcome, Baro. Thanks for having me, Catherine. Okay, so I understand you're in Tokyo. Is that right? Yeah, 7 a.m. Okay, well, thank you for getting up so early. But, okay, are you from South Korea originally? Yes, I was born and spent half of my life in South Korea. Okay, so why is South Korean eSports so important to us? Yeah, that's a great question. And, you know, to me, it's where eSports as a business was born. So I think that, you know, as everybody knows who's into video games, like video game itself has a long history. And I know that, you know, Japan has long history, North American market has a long history. But when it comes to eSports, I mean, in terms of business, South Korea is where it really happened in the 90s with the game called Starcraft. And it's where it, you know, became sustainable for the first time, in my opinion. So that's why it's really important. And back in the days, nobody, I was one of the, you know, younger players. I mean, as a normal layperson, and nobody really knew it was going to be this big. Nobody really called it eSports. But, you know, it just became more globalized nowadays. So that's why it's important, I think. So how did you become involved in eSports? Like, what's your background in this space? Yeah, so I can tell a lot. I got nothing to do in terms of career, like what eSports are gaming, because as I said, I'm born in Korea raising the states half and half. My training is in engineering. So I have a PhD in aerospace. I worked as a R&D engineer for 10 years. And then about five years ago, I switched my career to management consulting and based in Tokyo. And, you know, given my background, I joined as an AI consultant. But then, you know, I need growing up as a gamer. And I saw eSports back in South Korea. And coming to Japan, I had a lot more expectation about eSports because Japan, in my mind, was a big, big country, a gaming country. So eSports has to be bigger. But to my surprise, nobody really talked about eSports back in 2017, 2016, when I just got here. So I found it kind of peculiar. So, you know, I talked with a lot of people and thought maybe this could be a great business opportunity because, you know, Japan as a gaming nation is a big, big market. So it started off as a side hustle. So I talked with our, you know, CEO and we got to do this and we launched the eSports advisory. It took about a year or two, you know, convince all the c-suit because nobody knew what eSports was. And we are basically a firm, a big firm from more known for auditing and, you know, accounting. So it took me some time. But eventually, we got it out there and it started off as a side hustle. But then it really took off in 2018 over here. So the client base increased a lot. So I had to do it full time and now I lead a group of, you know, people who's dedicated in eSports business over here and overseas as well. But that's pretty much like in a nutshell. You know, I think that that's off in the case that people, it's kind of a side hustle at first. And it takes a while to break in. But, you know, it's such a huge industry that there's a lot of business opportunity. And you just have to kind of be willing to pay the price at the beginning to, you know, make that entree. So how did eSports develop in South Korea? I know you talk about that a lot in your book. Yeah. Yeah. So where do I start? So it starts with the, you know, that climate back in the 90s, the economic climate in South Korea in the 90s, because, you know, economically we were really in a tough situation where we got, you know, aided by the IMF. And we had a lot of late, you know, laid off of, you know, people from big sports. And really, and then, you know, the video gaming market itself was really similar to like the Japanese gaming market because there were no like big game publisher in Korea back then. So most of the game that we play were Japanese games like PlayStation or Super Nintendo, all that stuff, like everywhere else. But then, you know, the PC really, you know, got started to, you know, be in our household. And also the government started to teach, you know, PC or how to use PC at school. And, you know, and then that was about the time when modem started to come in. And then, you know, people like me who like playing game, they find their way to play, you know, some kind of game in their computer at home. And that's when, you know, MMORPG kind of game really kind of really took off. And that's what really pretty much the start of the online gaming. And then I think it was 1998, Starcraft just came out. And it was a huge hit in Korea. And as you know, it's not a Korean game. It's an American game and a real time strategy. And for some reason it clicked really well with the Korean population. So everybody like, you know, like around my age, everybody wanted to play that. So, but not everybody had, you know, their PC at home because it was expensive, all the network environment to play. So, but there are still many people who wanted to play. So, and naturally, there was that market need where, you know, people want to play more games. And therefore, a new business came out called PC Bong, which is, you know, a dedicated, you know, eSports net cafe where you can play any sort of game that you want. So it sort of became like a like a culture, right? So after school, we just get together with our friends and just, you know, drop by like going to an arcade, drop by PC Bong, you spend a couple of hours of playing Starcraft. And then, you know, then from those PC Bongs, like these little tournaments really start happening. And, you know, the stronger ones became famous locally. But then one day, all of a sudden, a local cable television started to go all in with eSports. And they just said, they're just going to do 24-7 eSports, you know, broadcasting Starcraft. And it was called the on-game net, OGN now. And all of a sudden, you can see on television that people playing professionally Starcraft was, it was kind of sensational because, you know, I remember like coming back from school, I turned on the television, it was like, how come I see Starcraft on television, right? And there's a professional player playing. And what was interesting is that the already the configuration was pretty much set like, you know, like nowadays, like, you know, we had a caster and commentator, just like a sports, you know, streaming. And it was really fun to just hearing them commenting or, you know, like, you know, just hearing what they say and learning about the story behind it. And that really made it even bigger. And that was like really end of 90s. And when it became 2000, I called it in my book, it's more like a Renaissance era of South Korean esports. And that's where the pro league came out, the professional team came out, the star star player came out, et cetera, et cetera. So that's how it really got bigger, big, big in the 2000 in a nutshell. Yeah, I really like the use of the word Renaissance in relation to this because it did really make a huge impact in video games and competitive gaming. And I love the story in your book where you talk about how expensive to purchase the games. And so you would have to go to a dangerous neighborhood to buy them. Yeah, thanks for being there. Yeah, there was a specific place, if anybody lives in Yong, Seoul, there's a place called Yongsan. And that's actually where the American US Army base was, not anymore, but there was a heavily based there. And right next to that, there was the electronic, you know, district where you, you know, people like me, younger, they go by and their favorite games that they want. But of course, it comes with some risk. You're gonna get taken down when you would go and buy those, huh? Yeah, you need a lot of courage to go there. So how did you come up with this idea that there was like a renaissance of esports in South Korea? Great question. So yeah, I mean, so for my advisor work here, so we advise a lot of clients. And what we often we do is like we benchmark other countries, right? So it turns out that as everybody knows in esports, like, you know, the big nations in esports like Korea, China, US, they already have their establishment. And, you know, but if you look into their development pattern, they all have different patterns, right? So I mean, it's different region, different demographic, different needs, different markets. So and then one, one of the thing we did was, you know, analyzing Korea. And it was pretty obvious that, you know, the in the after the millennium, it was really when that really, you know, took off the industry as a whole in South Korea until 2010. You know, and I also mentioned about in the book that there was a, you know, the fixed game scandal. So around from 2000 to 2010 was really the golden era where, you know, a lot of exciting things happen. And that's exactly when I was one of the fans, you know, seeing all the star player, you know, being born. And I think a lot of my generation back in South Korea, they followed more Starcraft League than say a regular, you know, traditional sports like baseball or soccer, which is also huge in Korea as well. So, so it's also so it's both, you know, from market analytics, but also from my personal experience back in South Korea. Sure. So what do you think, you know, it's been really interesting in 2020, everything went virtual. And then now we look at 2021 and beyond. And, you know, some people are even saying that it could be like the roaring twenties, you know, in our economy and in our lifestyle. What do you think the future of these sports is in South Korea and beyond? Yeah, that's a great, great question. And I don't know if I have the answer, but what I know is that so what I've seen so far in South Korea, I think we saw a really like, perhaps a full cycle as a, you know, as an industry, right? So we had a like the first inception and the beginning and then the so-called the renaissance. And then we had a little bit of, you know, the bubble pop, but it wasn't the end of the story. It was really, you know, just a beginning of another phase of maturation. So I think, you know, if I look in that, you know, frame towards, you know, other countries in terms of esports, I think depending on the country, some people, some places are early stage, like in Japan, we're still early, but places like, you know, China and North America, they're way, way, you know, like similar level as in Korea. So, you know, it's really in maturation phase or also you can say that in depending on the region. So I think, you know, this kind of trend will repeat, I would say, depending on the region. But, you know, given COVID situation last year, I think it really accelerated some aspects. And I think that's the reason why a lot of the people in this space are really excited about it, because some people even say like, I mean, this is the kind of thing that, I mean, we would have reached in five years, but because of COVID, we are actually earlier than planned. So all these like online engagements, online events, you know, the 441, and the gaming industry itself has, you know, increased 25% compared to last year, I mean, before COVID. So, you know, that's also huge, huge up. But also, not only about esports, what we're looking into is that there's a lot of movement going on in between IP collaboration, right. So esports, right, it's really fun to watch people player playing, but also the same thing from the content perspective, there are a lot of rooms to, you know, like have more business in terms of IP collaborations. So, you know, a lot of times, you know, for example, Fortnite, nowadays you see it's not only about playing Fortnite, there's so much different channels where, you know, you can, you know, like engage with new content, like for example, there were Ironman IPs in Fortnite, MPAs in Fortnite, etc., etc. So all these are like new businesses that's coming out. And I think it's, you know, also relates to esports very much. So these are all like, you know, all these like little channels that, you know, has a lot of prospects. And I see it with a lot of excitement. And that's what I'm really looking forward to. I don't know if that answered your question though. Absolutely. And how would you compare esports in South Korea with esports in Japan? Oh, yeah. So, I mean, esports in South Korea already has like over two decades of, you know, history. So in terms of business use cases or, you know, the perception of esports to general public, compared to what we have in Japan is very, very different. They're way, way ahead of what's happening right now. But on the other hand, in Japan, it's very interesting because, you know, as I mentioned, it's a very large gaming nation with a lot of game publisher. And if you look into the population, the game population is crazy. It's almost like half of their population is gaming pop, you know, gamers, and the numbers out there. So we see a lot of potential for growth. And also another thing is that one other interesting thing that we find out lately is that, you know, compared to other countries, what happened in Japan is that a lot of the countries other than Japan, a lot of activities are happening at the cap like big cities like Korea, Seoul, in China, Shanghai, you know, and US LA, like those big cities. But in Japan, all the big stuff, I mean, exciting stuff is actually not happening. Like it's not focused in Tokyo. So it's actually happening on the regional side. So if you actually look into it, it's a lot of things are happening locally throughout Japan. And a lot of these activities are led by the local government or some local company who has a lot of love with their, you know, people, local community. And they have their, you know, all these different ideas, like, you know, some places they have a collaboration with the shrines. Some places have collaboration with their local restaurants and shop. It's all different, you know, kind of business ideas. And I think that's what makes it very different what's happening in Japan compared to other countries. So what motivated you to write demystifying esports? Oh yeah, order of thought. So I honestly, I never thought of writing a book, but then I think this was back in 2018. So I was at a business conference. It was a sports analytics conference in Tokyo. And I gave a talk, it was like one of the early talk I gave in esports towards a sports crowd that we need to look into this more seriously, especially to sports crowd, because it's growing really big. Japan is still small. And that place, I met a gentleman who was also an author himself, but he was a more than a traditional sports related author. And he just, you know, came over to me after the talk. And it's like, and we had a really nice chat. And then, you know, later a few days later, we had a drink together at where we're nearby where I work. And I learned that he wrote a book and he's former journalist and such. He goes, you know, Baro, you should write a book. It's like, give me a break. I've never thought of writing a book. And then he gave me some tips like how he got to writing his book and all these steps and all that and how to do so. Because, you know, back to me, it was like, so, you know, Odisha's just writing a book, you know, just thinking of it. But then, okay, so maybe I'll try. I gave some thought and then I thought I gave it a try. And that was, that was 2019. So from 2019, I started writing a blog. And just accumulating this not gets up stories. And for throughout the year, I, you know, wrote that blog. And that basically become the, you know, the portion of that book right now. And from 2020, I just started editing and putting into one cohesive story. And so it took about a year and a half just to, you know, from, from idea to publishing. As an author myself, I know that it can take a while and having the blog base is a pretty, it's a much faster way. But, you know, I'm really interested in this idea of, you know, you start out in the book talking about how a lot of older generation people don't understand what this is and how your book de-mystifying esports actually de-mystifies esports for those people in generations that don't understand what they are. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. I mean, that's so I, so it's, so when I was writing the book, the two things were happening concurrently, right? So there was one thing about the history of South Korea that, you know, I wanted to nail that down and then, and share that to people who want to learn more about it. But at the same time, my two older sons, they play Fortnite like crazy. And, you know, and, and my grandma, I mean, their grandma, who's taking care of him was, you know, pretty much going nuts sometimes. And I wrote it in the book, right? So, so there were two things happening. And it was kind of like, it happened very naturally that to try to, you know, blend that together. And, and it also like kind of, like, you know, came back to me with a question, like a very serious question, I thought, you know, what is having fun, right? I had this conversation yesterday as well, like, having fun means a completely different thing depending on the generation. And, you know, video game, luckily, it has now a long enough history to have that legacy, like I grew over video games and now my kids are, but my parents' generation, they didn't have that experience with video games. So it's very still very mystical to them. And, and I totally understand, because, you know, I think SNS was like that in the beginning, too. And honestly, for me, I still, I don't understand TikTok, for example. And so, so I think this is a natural thing. But, you know, trying to understand that what, what, what having fun means, depending on the generation, I don't know if we, you know, if we give enough thoughts about it and just understanding what having fun means, depending on who you are, I think I thought, you know, that's probably worth it, just to, you know, have it as a story, part of the story in the book. And that's how it, you know, went on. And surprisingly, after the book was published, I had no intention, but I got a lot of, you know, inquiries from parenting podcasts, and also from my work as well. And, you know, I am seeing a lot of, you know, I get to talk a lot about parenting, although I'm not, I'm not an expert in parenting at all. But just that using video game as a effective communication tool for being a parent, I think that's something that we probably, you know, not most of us, you know, been trying to utilize as much as possible. But I think it's really a very, very effective way of doing so, if not. Sure. And, you know, it raises another question, and that is this idea of people, you know, high school kids and even elementary school kids, and they're, they're learning that these people are out there making a lot of money in these sorts. And so they, when they play, if they're playing an eSports game, they may have ideas of potentially being a pro at some point. And so communicating that desire or dream to an older person that's older, their parents or someone else might be difficult. And because they don't really know that that exists or that it's available or that there's scholarship. So I think that's kind of an interesting offshoot of that. What are your thoughts about that? I, you know, thank you for bringing that out. That's like exactly one of the point I was trying to address, right? So I know that, you know, there will be a lot of people younger generation like that who has to go through that, you know, talk with it to their parents, what their passion is, but, but they probably don't know what, what they're talking about. And I, I, I know that because I went through that in the business scene, right? So when I first talked about eSports to our CEO, it was like, what do you like what are you talking about? You know, it's like, you want to play video games at work? Is that what you want to do? You know, and also like a lot of business proposals for clients and, you know, a lot of the people who understand eSports, they love, they, they have so, you know, passionate about it. But then when it goes up to the decision maker level, usually who are, who are way, you know, up in the ladder and older, but who has less experience in video games, they just don't know, they just don't understand what it is. And it's less about the business prospect is more about just that the subject itself, it's such, it also has, you know, notorious negative connotation around video eSports, I mean, video games and eSports in general. So which doesn't help. And I, I could totally see that my kids too, you know, if, if, you know, they want to be an eSports professional or not even as a player, even like there are so many different career paths that you said, Catherine, like, you know, it's players, one thing, but cast or commentators, event organizers, just, there were just, there are just so many needs in terms of like business professionals. And do we know, as a business professional that there are these needs and that our kids are actually serious about it when they wanted to do. So I thought maybe there's not much, you know, materials out there. And that's one of the reasons why I try to write that book. And also, right now, I teach at university here over here in Kale for the past three years. And, you know, for undergrad and your graduate level course, it's an eSports dedicated course. We try, we've been teaching about, you know, a lot of different things, but really about the business side of it, the business being a business professional in this field. And it's been surprisingly well with Steve, like, you know, way more than we expected. And, and so I can see that, you know, from a younger generation, there's definitely a lot of needs. But it's really about so building that gap between the younger generation and the older generation has as much as the experience of playing video games. Sure. And I definitely think that there's a trend to teaching eSports on the college level and, you know, having business eSports classes because it's, it's, you know, it's a little different than actual sports, because eSports, it seems to even be broader than, than sports because it includes the creative components, the STEM component. You know, it actually attracts a huge number of people, even people who play traditional sports are involved in gaming. And we don't even, a lot of people don't even know that they're a gamer, but then you go, what are you doing on your phone? Oh, I'm playing a game. Okay, I guess. Exactly. It's sort of like a, you know, I mean, depending on your read is sort of like a guilty pleasure to a lot of people, right? I mean, although they may play a lot of games, but they probably don't, you know, open it up in public. But one thing that was really pretty much an epiphany for my case was that so the really, really the very beginning of this eSports advisory at my workplace started with an internal seminar, right, towards our employees. And we do this, you know, on a regular basis, but just one day I thought, maybe we can do this with eSports. So the seminar was what is eSports, right? Basically, because nobody really knew about it back then. And then surprisingly, normally these internal seminars is not really popular. It happens after work, you know, 7pm. And if 20 people showed up, that's great. But then with eSports, there are like 50 people, right? It's like, whoa. So there are actually some, actually some game gamers in the house, you know, and which, you know, we're accounting firm, we're, you know, auditing firm. And then they're obviously they're people with secret passion of gaming. And then later on, we launched a eSports club activity within the firm. And we did a lot of these tournaments events with, you know, old school games like Street Fighter, Puyo Puyo and all that. And all these new people just joining, joining. And some guy who actually won the tournament, he brought with his own controller, right? He was like, actual, you know, really passionate about the playing game. So, so, you know, I'm not saying that like gaming is not only like a very effective tool as a parenting, you know, but this is also very effective as an intro, you know, inner firm, like, you know, within the firm. Sure. And, you know, we can learn a lot about teamwork from eSports and from gaming. Is that right? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. A lot of stories. I mean, game is all about, you know, like, having fun and, you know, that story. How do you, you know, enjoy the story as a game that, you know, the creator created, or the story that you create with your, your fellow, you know, as eSports, right? You compete. If you win, it's like a sports match. And the more tough it makes an even better story. And then after you win, if you win, that's, you know, that's such a sensational, you know, feel that you keep remembering for years later. What game are you playing these days? So, I don't play as much as I used to, but I play with my kids once in a while, Fortnite, and, you know, squad. And then, you know, it's, it's just, you know, just that experience. I'm so bad. I mean, compared to them, they're better being in Fortnite when it comes to, you know, than, than I am. But Fortnite, I was playing this call game called the go substitution. I really got into it. Great game. Once in a while, I have a thing for a League of Legends once in a while. So I'll play just a little bit. But yeah, I wish I can play more. But yeah, it's more my kids now. So how can people buy your book demystifying eSports? Yeah, thank you. So, I mean, it's, it's available on Amazon. That's probably the easiest way worldwide. So if you just type, search my name or search for the title, you can find it. If you're North America, a bunch of nobles also have it there as well. If you're in Japan, the Kinokuniya and also Rakuten, they also sell it as well. But the easiest way would be I would say Amazon. Fantastic. Well, Baro, thank you so much for being on my show and congratulations about your book. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. All right. So thank you viewers for joining us today. Next week, my guest will be eSports thought leader, Danny Martin, will discuss pathways to an eSports career. See you then.