 Hi everybody, I'm Matthew Miller, the Fedora Project Leader, and this is a Fedora Council video meeting. We do these about once a month. We meet more often than that, usually in IRC. And we try to make our business not actually be meeting-driven, but we found it useful to do video things just for the high bandwidth exchange. And, you know, because it's something to share with everybody else afterwards in an easier way than just a text log. So we do these about once a month or we check in with some part of the project that's doing something interesting or maybe needs help or has something cool to share. Today I have my cat Izzy. She's right off the screen here purring very loudly. She may get up and put her butt in front of the camera or do other cat things at some point, or if my screen starts wobbling, it's because she's decided that it needs love. So that's going on. Also, if I'm distractedly petting the cat, that's what's happening today. But in addition to that, we have Mo Duffy, who's the design team lead, sharing something really exciting with us. Mo and the design team have been working on a new logo for our project for the last, I don't know, two years now. We started a while ago. Then we ended up getting stalled with some legal things. Those are all resolved and we're ready to go. So take it away, Mo. Sure. And I wouldn't say they're all resolved. I would say that we have to, is it, what, a 12 to 18 month period before we sort of know that? Yeah, I think without going into too much detail. We are clear to start using this new logo. And if things are fine after a while, then it will definitely be okay. I guess that's. Yeah. Okay, so I am going to share my screen now and so you can see the logo. And I just wanted to give a tiny bit of background around this, although you probably already are all well aware of this. Like Matthew mentioned, this has been a long term project. It started in October, 2018. The ticket is designed ticket 620 and I think it just started as a conversation me and Matthew had because I like to complain a lot and I work with the fedora logo all the time and it definitely the current one we are using right now, not the new one. It has a number of deficiencies in the design. The number one deficiency being that you can't ever produce the mark one color. And our kind of clue G answer to that was if you need it one color just use the letters and omit the mark. But what's the point of the logo mark if you can't use it and things kind of came to a head. I don't was it that Christmas break. I know the conversation started at October, 2018. I think at the same time we started talking about it. The font awesome was a font awesome they they have one color font based marks and they were trying to add all the Linux distros and somebody helpfully added a version of the fedora logo to that library that was not okay with our guidelines. So that was sort of a wow I'm celebrating Christmas and trying to fix this that's great. Yeah. So, you know, that was more motivation to fix it right. We appreciated them adding our logo there it's useful for people to be able to refer to fedora in a way but we also want them to use something that looks kind of like an official logo rather than something that clearly was not. Right. I mean it's great to get the exposure. I looked at the our logo usage guidelines, which still say they're in draft status. That's the current logo guidelines have been in draft status for, I don't know, 14 years something like that. So, I was like, why are this in draft status and that kind of led to a whole this whole conversation. Yeah. Yeah, so that kind of went on for a while. It was done completely in the public in terms of like the iterations of the logo and feedback and did a couple really detailed blog posts about sort of the issues. I'm sure you're familiar with those but if not feel free to reach out to me and I'll give you pointers to everything. Stuff kind of stalled in like May 2019 for various reasons there is Matthew it alluded to there was some, you know, once you kind of come up with a design you like then you have to start the legal process and unfortunately we have to treat that as a black box we can't really go into detail on that. But things kind of stalled for a while and I think it was like July this the past July 2020 where we kind of, I think Matthew kind of tried to pick it back up and was like hey so how are things going. And since then we've kind of been working on it, trying to get it ready. And so okay so some information now that might be useful for you to have me just open up document here. So one of the things that we've put together. It was me and Matthew and Marie and Ben put together sort of a timeline that is approved by our trademark lawyers that for rolling out the logo. We can start using the logo immediately. And we're not looking to destroy any existing materials with the old logo we would actually like to keep using the old logo. Marie has been looking at creating a fedora classic logo that could be used and sort of those applications to and kind of adding the classic to minimize confusion. In particular like we don't have to use the old logo type with the lettering it's just the old logo mark we're looking to keep into use. I'm trying to think what else. So like as as time goes on now that we have the approval to start rolling it out. When I get new logo requests coming in I'm using the new logo almost by default. And I think there were a couple of items we were looking at producing right away. I'm not 100% sure I don't think that Marie can probably fill everyone in more than better than I can. But the one thing we had talked about was a small 1000 unit run of fedora classic beverage mugs or tumblers. Okay, cool. And the other one was a fedora diversity sticker sheet with the new logo. I don't know if I kind of remember producing that like thing I'm sharing right now is from that, but I don't actually see the ticket for it so I don't know what happened, but there was supposed to be a small run of that with 100 items I'm going to have to pack that down. But anyway, so that was sort of like what we're looking to do out the gate like these are two things we'd like to produce just to start to kick things off. And then as needed process like immediately, and honestly like for the past, maybe a couple weeks or so, as new promotional material requests come in like the thing that I'm showing right now is a version of that diversity sticker set that we use. And that was used for, I think the name of the conference was open source 101 or something like that this is the banner for our virtual booth for that conference. So that was produced with the new logo. And then any other kind of graphics or like I have a few things I can show off here. We had a Internet, or Internet of Things IOT Fedora spin sticker request though you might not even really notice because one of the things about the way that the new logo is designed is the wordmark. Unlike the old wordmark, which was a proprietary font called Bryant to the new wordmark is based on comfort, which is a open font license open source font. And it's sort of a drop in replacement. So even though it's like a different set of glyphs, you kind of, you can tell like you or you can't really tell unless you know to look that it is actually the new logo mark but anyway so that was produced with the new mark. We had a request for Ask Fedora, and I've been working with the outreach applicant on that. And, well, I'll go into more in depth on that in a little bit when I start talking about sub logos, but I'm trying to see if there was anything. Oh yeah Fedora easy fix. It's another sub logo but see that that new logo was produced using the new mark in it. So, we've already started as new requests come in. We were going to have to do them anyway, so we'll do them with the new logo. We're not actively seeking to go back and update things yet, but we have a timeline for that. So I've already missed the first timeline milestone here. I was hoping to get new Fedora logos into the Fedora dash logos package in time for beta, but due to various circumstances I was not able to do that, but I hope that's okay. I've actually been working on that a little bit more this morning. I do have one pull request on Fedora logos right now. I'm probably going to have that pull request is for that to you. And please feel free if you have any questions like feel free to interrupt or whatever. This is the new web server test page. It will pop up for Apache for engine X and for catty. This shows it in catty mode. The way that the vendor logo works for the web server is very interesting. But anyway, yeah, so this is packaged in pound or in Fedora dash logos. I have the pull request already for this filed. And so I think the next pull request will just be for all the various logo files. I'm just trying to track down which file goes to which thing. Like all of this stuff is done by renaming and moving things in a spec file for Fedora logos and sometimes things aren't where you expect them to be. So it's just been a process unraveling that which is why like you would think, oh, well, it's just images. You just update the images and you're done. No, it's a little more complicated. So I'm working on it. I'm working on it. So anyway, so that was sort of the Fedora 34 beta milestone that I missed. So that will be Fedora 34 final. We will have the new logos updated in the distro itself. And the approach that I am taking to that is as light a touch as possible. So I'm constraining it to having the logos fit the exact dimensions as the old files. And if the old files had a specific color, like for example, if the Fedora font was in white, then the new one's going to be in white. If the old one was in color, then the new one's going to be in color. And I'm trying to match the amount of space they take up within the pixel dimensions of the file as closely as possible because I'm just trying to minimize any issues whatsoever. It's the most conservative approach, I think. Yeah, that makes sense because some of these files, we know what they are and where they're used. Other ones, they've been there for 10 years and packages are probably referring to them and we don't know how or why. So this minimal change is probably the best way. For people who don't know this, all of the logos that use our trademark are all supposed to be in one package, the Fedora logos package, which I believe, Tom, you are still the owner of. Which is awesome. And so that way, if you want to make a non-branded Fedora package, you can Fedora spin or re-spin or re-mix. You can take that out and that can get rid of all of the branding and replace that. Also, it means that all of our trademark restrictions are constrained, hopefully, or at least mostly to this one package. Sorry for the diversion. Yeah, it's all right. And there's like Croft in here. So that's another pull request. I'm going to do a separate pull request to remove the Croft. Like there's some stuff that was specific to like Fedora 7 in here. And it's just sort of sitting around and I kind of hope this one is, this one is 9 Fedora 9. I guess, yeah, that was not core at that time. So yeah, a lot of Croft. So there'll be a separate pull request for the cleaning. There'll be a pull request for the new logos and there already is a pull request for the web server stuff. And the web server stuff got complicated too because in the process I noticed, hey, we're still using the pre-2016. Version of the Apache logo. Oops. So I'm trying to fix that stuff along the way as well. So anyway, so that's that. Okay. So to add on, so the Fedora 34 final will have the updated logos and Fedora logos, hopefully. Part of that work too, I might mention. So you might notice maybe not that this page is using Montserrat, which is the open source font that we use for a lot of Fedora materials for several years now. It's sort of our official font. We wanted this page to be in Montserrat, but Montserrat's not something that's generally installed by default. So the idea that we had here is Luya heroically made a very tiny web fonts package for Montserrat and we're going to add it. Well, I'm going to propose we add it as a soft dependency on the Fedora logos package. It's very small. I think it's, if I remember correctly, it's like 400 K something like that. Your PR has been approved. Yeah. Oh yeah, you can't see. You can't see the faces. No, I can't see anybody. I'm just talking to a gray Tom gave you a thumbs up on that one. So, okay, awesome. Awesome. Okay. So, so hopefully we'll have like this nice like Apache page that nobody sees, but that's okay. So there's that. Okay. So then for F 34 final on top of the new logos, we're looking at updating the social media properties. So, you know, your Twitter is the whatever else Facebook group. That kind of stuff that Fedora maintains. I have to probably ask around in the mind chair team and just see if there's any that we need to catch that I don't have on the radar for that. But we're looking to change the logos over on or just around release day as sort of like a nice kind of coordinated launch. Ask it out for our project.org. We're hoping we'll have the new logo Matthew actually very kindly has already put one of our drafts up. And one of the outreach the applicants created this mark I think it's kind of cool. And again, I'll talk about sort of marks and sub logos and stuff in a little bit after I get through the timeline. But there's an example of one take a look, you know, I would like start that Fedora to also have the new logo. But of course, being a designer I can't let well enough alone so I started mocking up a new one but looking at the timeline. I don't think we're going to have time to get this in. I mean, I'm going to prioritize everything before this if I have time to implement this. Great. But if not, then tough cookie. I'll just in place update the Fedora logo, which will look something like this. I'll just update the color of this bar and just swap in the new logo. So I mean, either way, I kind of like the idea of a nice fresh look but at the same time we're taking a very conservative approach in the district itself. So I don't think it's the end of the world if we just stick with what we have for now with the new logo and then maybe for F 35 look at making things, you know, changing them up a little bit. So that's that. What was the other one? Let's see. So it's ask start up get Fedora. So that would be this one is going to be a quick swap out change. Oh, I think so we're basically changing the logo here. And then all of these sub logos that have it's just the text that's getting updated the text up here. I really want to do something more exciting up here but again, that's going to be lowest priority and if I get to it, I get to it. And then Fedora magazine. I was looking to update Fedora magazine to it's sort of right now in the plan. It's the lowest priority because Fedora magazine sort of operates a little bit separately than Fedora like we've given it its own sort of a little bit more unique brand like it uses a different font and stuff like that. I do have a mock up for a suggestion as to how we could change it. So it's this one right here, and I can pop that out if it's more handy. And that one's unique because you use the gradient there in this. Yeah, that's one of the tricks I like of this new design to is you can do like a little gradient or kind of it gives you a lot more flexibility for different treatments because you can do it one color it's just one shape. So, and I felt like that and it's also using the darker blue, which is the same as our dark blue today. The color that is changing is the lighter blue it's a little bit brighter than the one we have now which is a little darker and more purpley. This one is a little bit more cyan and it's brighter. But I thought well if we also have magazine use the dark blue it also gives a little bit more differentiation so it can feel like it's own it's an own thing but it's in the family it's like a second cousin maybe instead of a first cousin. Anyway, so I do have something ready to go for that I really just need to, and I probably should have done this a while ago. I need to float it with that team make sure they're on board with it make changes that they want but again that's sort of towards the bottom of the stack number one because I don't think it's as critical because we treat it as a separated brand but also number two. It's the website it's not in the distro so the timelines are a little looser than they would be to get something packaged. Okay, so then after f 34. We're looking at updating for our project or which right now is the media wiki, and then the fed menu logo, and there's like a panda and fed menu. I'm thinking we either update that or just get rid of it entirely because I don't think, like our apps are kind of starting to turn it off. And I don't know if you know what I'm talking about here. Does anybody know the name of an app that uses it I can't even think this Koji Koji. It's not. Let me see if is it. Okay, let me look if it's here. Hyper kitty use this that I think. Oh, okay. Yes, okay, it's this little fedora logo in the corner. And it has a panda. So, I love it. But we have a new panda coming to. But anyway, yeah, so those could be updated or we'll get rid of fed menu. I don't really know as time goes on. I mean, like half these links are broken anyway. So, I don't know. Yeah, I think. Yes, drop in the new logo into it is probably the best approach. Yeah. Okay, and then for f 35 was deprecated as well. So that might be worth double checking to if I don't make them present or sit maintaining. Just fed menu generally. Yeah, I think that menu the the intent is to deprecate or retire. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, anyway, so then that's the post f 34 plan is updating for our project at Oregon fed menu. And then for f 35 will look at spins and labs. Those are something that I kind of feel like we have a new get fedora coming. I don't think it's something. I mean, and I wouldn't even say, oh my God, let's just like completely redo it again because I'm really sick of redoing it. But I think that it might be time to sort of better integrate some of these things rather than having like a separate spin site. Bring it back into get fedora, like have it closer so it's like under the get fedora slash rather than its own thing. So at 35 I have update spins and labs, but that might manifest as bring spins and labs over into the get fedora site and sort of retire or redirect those existing URLs. There's that the community blog. See, and that's, you might see here too. The community blog is sort of community facing fedora project that org is community facing. So the community facing stuff is lower on the stack than the stuff that somebody would see if they install fedora and as a as an initial fedora user. What they see before they become a contributor. So that's why like ask and start and get fedora org and fedora magazine in part are sort of bumped to the top of the list. Then stuff like spins and labs, which are a little bit you have to get a little bit deeper into the weeds, I think to use those and then the community blog is community facing and then discussions. Yeah, those are bumped to the top because users would see them discussion. I mean, you could argue I would say ask is really the discourse that users would gravitate to first because they're looking for help and then as they become a contributor they might move to discourse discussion.org project.org so that's why that's an F 35 timeline to but again these it's not going to be it's not going to like hit us and like oh my gosh what do we do I think I actually have a file here. I do have a file somewhere with an updated community blog logo, and it's again because of the way the logo was designed and it's very easy to swap it in so I'm not really concerned about any of this being. I mean most of it is just figuring out where's the repo. How do I do the pull request like that is the difficult part that logo is not the difficult part. One thing I wanted to note was that when you're talking about the spins and labs you're talking about those websites but actually in the like if you install KD plasma desktop. That's going to use the foot or logos file for things and so that will actually show the updated logos with or 34 as well so it's not those right those different actual things you can install are also all being updated they're not being left to last or anything like that. Yeah, it's just the website. Which is honestly better integrated so okay so then also in the fedora 34 timeline one of the things that we talked about. For the fedora classic logo so where we had this idea where you know if you're like an old timer in fedora. And I don't know this was just like a crazy idea, but it'd be interesting to sort of have like an old timers club. And like you get a special badge or something for it and you could get swag with the with the classic logo on it or something like that. Oh wait hold on. Oh my gosh I was I was complaining about the Google and Thunderbird integration and it really does suck because it just made my window disappear. Okay. Yes so that was another idea is having an old timers club list old timers maybe list people based on how long they've been in fedora I don't remember if we talked about would it be 10 years or however many years. And then there could be a special fast group and if you're in that group then you get the cool timers badge. And it's just something to, you know, honestly from like a UX perspective in community management, I think it's good to know who's been around a while and who hasn't because then sort of you look to the helpers. If somebody's been around a long time, generally not always they kind of know things so that they can kind of help guide new people. So it's kind of useful for new contributors to to know, hey, this person's been around for a long time they might be better equipped to advise me than the blind leading the blind. And then long term. So this is like I put 2022 beyond. So that's where we'd start picking off the contributor facing apps so that's where we start looking at Koji and Bodhi and those types of apps, because again those are contributors working with them. They know what fedora is they're aware, I'm sure when it starts happening there's a new logo. Okay, great. Oh, oops, sorry. Yeah, the telling you this Google Thunderbird integration does not work well so if anybody tells you it works well. All right, so anyway, so that was sort of the timeline bits that I had to talk about. And then does anybody have questions on the timeline or sort of roll out or oh my God you didn't think about X in terms of that. There were a couple questions about whether we're going to have some specific designs a 404 page customized to look pretty by default. I don't know what the what that looks like currently I think it's just a very plain page. And then also a pixel version of the logo, which I guess also goes with the terminal friendly version of the logo as well. Yeah, that's not pretty even. I want to bring back a radioactive panda. I mean, I don't know if anybody has opinions on that but I would like to see the radioactive panda make a return. It seems like a good place for it. There is a full batch error page forum for that actually to be a start to put them in there at least. What was that I didn't catch it it broke up. I said just shut that budget is forum for page. Oh, that's right. Okay, let's see. It's still there or no. Yeah, it's there it's there it's that's that's the one we can use as well. At least at least that's something to be useful. Yeah, well, I mean it's better than the one that is on get fedora right now. Badgers. Yeah, we used to have one I think it was on like the fedora community app and it had the beefy miracle with a ray gun shooting a panda, and it had like a radioactive symbol on the panda and it had like the error code was on the geiger counter. It was animated and it was fun. It'd be nice to do something fun. So yes, I like that idea. I will add that to the plan. The pixel version. Yeah, that is something that I guess that would go with the release stuff if we can get it in because it was. I don't Matthew has been playing around with it more than I have but there's like whatever tools you can use so you can get like a message of the day with the fedora logo in it in the terminal. We've had some people suggest different ANSI art fedora logos using the new logo so I think like a pixel art version of that could be nice to so I'll add that to it. Is there any specific and just note that I, well, I guess I could see the chat. Hold on. I was like looking at my notes page. Does is there a specific usage for the pixel version of the logo and mine that you had. Justin would like to build it in Minecraft. So. Oh, okay. That's important. If you have specific dimensions you needed and that would work best. Let me know and I can, I can do that. I think having a pixel version is probably generally awesome for just a lot of swag options as well because nice and nerdy. Right, right. Yeah, no, and I guess that maybe brings me to the next topic where I know that we've been sort of strict and inflexible a lot of times and I know there's reasons for that too. But I want to be like a little bit more open so like here. Like the general I kind of started with our current sub logo guidelines for figuring out and we have to sub logo templates we have one that's for teams. And we have one that's for apps. And, but the one for teams is basically it doesn't have the word it just has the mark. Here we go. So, it just has the mark design team and then the app has fedora and then the name of the application. Now I'm kind of like shifting opinions on this as we go and as we convert things I think that's okay. I don't think everything needs to be spelled out to the letter I think we should be more flexible with things. So, for example, with ask fedora, I think it was important to have the fedora, at least the word mark in it and have it explicitly say fedora besides ask fedora because I think that shows it's not just a website called ask fedora it's sort of an officially sanctioned, like the fedora project manages it. So that's why I wanted the word mark in there. But you know, I also like the way that discourse works and I'm not going to go into a discourse rant, I promise, but they have very specific ways that they let you use the logo and like the space that you get for the logo is very small so there isn't really an opportunity like if I just had the fedora logo here and it said fedora ask fedora. It's sort of not clear right away what is this thing and then for example when you have this tab icon here. I kind of want to move away from the world where I work on fedora and I have all my tabs and all the icons is the fedora logo and I can't tell the difference between like this is wiki and this is spins and it's like well, the point of the icon is to help me figure out which one. So, I want to be my main motivation in this request. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, well and I want to be a little more flexible with that stuff and like it is like, there's a lot of reasons why we're conservative in that way and I would say for me the primary reason is that when you're making a new mark, there's an effort in that and it has to be handheld to make sure that it fits the style and everything like we don't want these things to just come out of nowhere or somebody grab something that's off of open clip art and it's just not great. You know, like, I just, I want there to be a good, like, high bar for these marks, but at the same time, like, I just want it to be a possibility. I don't think by default, every sub logo should have its own custom mark. I think that we have to think about where it fits within everything. So like some properties of Aspidora is, it's this website that is heavily advertised to new users. It's sort of the main point of support for folks. It's something that has specific restrictions around how the app lets you work with it. And I just, I think the tab thing is, is legit like it would be good for that tab to stand out as this is a place where I asked the questions. So I think it kind of qualifies for having a custom mark. I think we should play it by year for a while and see if other patterns emerge, but like I'll tell you something else that when I was thinking through these things. This is also the same pattern that we generally use for contributor focused apps, like Koji, let's say. And I think if somebody works on Fedora and they're going to Koji, they know Koji is a Fedora app. So we don't need to specifically call out Fedora Koji. Like, we could just say, you know, this is Koji. And it could just be like I showed the, you know, part of this Fedora group idea, like part of the reasoning behind this is it's just the mark and the name and the team. Because if you're on the Fedora design team, you know it's the Fedora design team. People don't need to spell out Fedora. Well, in the same way, if it's an internal app, like if it's a contributor focused app to build packages or manage them or manage updates, you know you're working on Fedora. It doesn't have to be spelled out. So I think you can get away with just the logo. You know what I'm saying. And I guess one issue there, though, is that with some of these we've kind of gone towards making a custom, I guess Koji doesn't have it. Maybe it's Bodie has a custom logo. It does. But I think that's also helpful for the tab. You know what I'm saying. So I would say, I don't know a lot of thought needs to be made here, but that's why I just wanted to point out that there's like a lot of, I want to be flexible and I want to be open with how we roll it out. When we get to the point of rolling it out to contributor focused stuff. And as we start rolling it out to stuff that's focused on users, if that makes sense. And I definitely don't want to be as strict as we have been. So that's, that's my little piece and sub logos and then I guess the only other thing that might be worth showing is this is just sort of a little map I made of of where I kind of see that logo, the new logo kind of dropping into place. The primary mark is always going to be this horizontal one. These vertical ones are really just, you know, if you only have that amount of space, use it, but really we're considering this horizontal format one to be the primary mark. And it doesn't, you know, kind of makes my life easier, but it doesn't change the, the additions much. It really is just the word mark just gets inserted there because the text here is still using Monts rat. I'm not changing that we're not changing the dark blue color either. Yeah, so that's about all I have. I mean, if anybody has questions on any of this to answer them. I'll turn off the screen share so I can see people because talking into a black box is not fun. I have one more question. Is there going to be any updates about the presentation slides templates because we have really old one and this logo is changing so for speakers that will be nice to have a new template as well. Yeah, one sec. Hold on. Let me see if the, let me see if it's still there. I was actually going to make slides for this presentation using it, but I got lazy and I'm like, you know what, I'm not going to make slides. But let me see back. Okay, here. Yeah. I actually have a repo that it uses these this template right now there's a repo for it on Pagora. It's something like fedora dash presentation or something. It has the new logo in it. I updated it to have or I'm sorry, the one that's on Pagora right now has the old logo. I updated it to have the new logo. I will push this to that repo today. I can do it after this meeting. So you have it. And actually, I think it was, it was Neil that requested this because he was going to give a talk and we didn't really have a nice consistent. Oh, wait, am I sharing it. I am right. Yes. Right. Okay. Yeah, so he wanted like a nice looking template because we sort of had a whole bunch of different templates at the time and they all were weird in different ways. So this was sort of something that was started at the same time we're looking at doing the new logo. I just have 2 questions to ask at the end here. So 1 was just knowing that there's going to be things that just somehow we missed or forgot about. I'm just wondering how can the community best support or enable the work to either. I have some crazy ideas about that. Well, I was thinking that what we might want to do because we do have, I mean, we have a written timeline that I kind of walked you guys through for most of this presentation. What we may want to do. Maybe like a little bit before f 34 comes out or like maybe right away. I don't know just basically write up. You know, hey, we have the new logo. It is coming. This is sort of our timeline for rolling it out because it definitely wouldn't be helpful for people to be like, oh, well, Koji doesn't have the new logo yet because we're not planning to do that until like after f 35, you know what I'm saying and like we're not in any rush, you know, where it would be right away. Super useful to the point that there might not even be a whole lot of time if people do find it again. It's my fault. I will own that is if there are bits in the OS where the old logo is lingering around. We want to fix that. And we are, I will note that we are keeping the old logo in the package. We are just underscoring classic do it. So that if packages still need the old logo for whatever reason it's available in the package at least for a time. Yeah, I wonder if maybe we should set up like a special Pagger tracker just for reporting these things. And that could have like the timeline at the top version of it. And then if somebody wants to report Koji. That's fine. It gives them a place to, and we can, we could, we could say as loud as we want, don't do this but people are going to notice and want to report it and that way they'll at least be able to see that it's being tracked. And then if they do find other things they could do that. Matthew, we can also, I have some nice idea. Yeah, it's your crazy idea. Yeah, we can. Let's just say we push the new logo and we start showing around and changing the stuff is supposed to change and we could marry and anyone can miss some. So for that we can create some sort of fun gamify bug hunting each stuff. So if somebody found any logo and report first to the specific ticket, we can reward them with badge and also replace the logo we supposed to be. So we can have more interactive and gamify stuff so that will be actually fun to have some badges how many back you found in the design about the old logo so you can basically report it and get some point. So it can be some stuff but people actually more have nice time with that. I believe that's my idea on that. Gamifying is always a good stuff. Mo, do you think it'd be better to have them file in the normal design tracker or actually set up a separate tracker for it because we could, I mean, could just make a new logo tag in there, but I kind of worried about it. I think a separate logo or a separate logo tracker might be better because and then what we could do is set up milestones in the tracker, which would conflict with the design team milestones which is why I think a separate repo for it would be better. And then we could do sort of a f 34 f 35 beyond f 35 milestones and then as the bugs come in, we can sort of tag them with the milestone that they were in the plan and if we didn't have them in the plan. We could determine what the timeline is and then tag them with that so that could kind of serve as our list. One caution I would say is that sort of like the ink doesn't dry on everything until we've been using the new logo for 12 to 18 months. At which point, it's sort of like, okay, this is a thing, because, again, I'm not going to go into detail, but something could happen within the next 12 to 18 months as we use the logo that, you know, maybe we have to rethink it or change it or something because it hasn't been fully approved. You know, as it's been filed as a trademark like we haven't gotten you know it takes you're sitting in a queue it has to be approved all that kind of stuff so you know if they come back and say well we have a concern about this you need to change this or you need to roll it back entirely. So that's why we don't really want to be rushing change it everywhere because then it will make more work if something happens. So I just wanted to throw that out there too. So it might be like a little team motivating like oh well I found this old logo but it's still the old logo, you know, so I don't know. That's the only caveat I would have around that stuff. One thing I discovered after like a month of back and forth about this with legal from their point of view us having like Fedora seven on the web for download counts as it still being in use. And so the amount of we still have to we were really concerned we would maybe have to like I was talking about even making like a Fedora classic spin that would kind of showcase it. And but we don't have to go to those kind of lengths because just having it be like the old logo is is always going to be in use. In fact, the logo from from that point of view the logo from before the current logo is still actually in use by the project. If it comes to that. So that at least is not a big concern which is a relief to me, even though it kind of would have been fun to make a Fedora classic logo with FBWM 95. So maybe then there was some like I think a pagore repo might be a good home for that just because I definitely see people who even if you tell them not to it just happens. People want a place to see that their request is something's happening something's happening. So that might be a cool thing. My second question actually that kind of builds on that is I've always I love the wiki documentation that's there for the brand guidelines. It's an amazing example for me as someone who's not primarily a designer just to understand how these things work. My question is have we thought or has there been any thought about maybe if we set up a new repository about moving that content to the Fedora docs website at maybe not Fedora 34 but just down the line. Maybe adding that into the roadmap. Are there any has that been a thought or anything like that over. Yeah, I have definitely been thinking about that. And I to the point that I've started learning ASCII doc and used it in other projects to so I'm kind of getting more familiar with it. The only thing that I would say on that though is that I'm, I'm trying to be like flexible and a little bit organic as we roll it out and like different usages of the logo have different needs so I don't want to like dictate a one size fits all type thing. So I kind of want to be a little slow and rewriting the guidelines. I'm like starting at the gate sticking to them as they are written with the new marks, but then as different situations arise trying to be more flexible. So that'll probably cause some changes to the guidelines and the reason that those guidelines right now still say their draft is. I think it was something to do with like communication with the legal team and I don't, I don't remember if I don't think there was ever any concerns with them as they were written I think they just were never given a final review and an okay. And I just didn't feel safe for moving the draft which is just why it's there. So I hope this would also be an opportunity to have that team. And once we have the initial new draft done, have them actually represent that so we can take the draft status off. But yeah, yeah, that's definitely something that has been thought of. Awesome. And if the docs team can support but definitely something Peter. I can't pronounce his last name Peter is something he's got there's template repose to help out with the bootstrapping we can definitely find some folks to help out with that when when the time is right. But that was all the questions I had any other questions. Getting to the end of the hour here. I've been working with Mo, like a lot on this so I don't have very many questions. I don't even know what questions might be asked. But if you do have more, you know where the design team is to be found. So please bring them there to our viewers now. We can tell them we can put some links in when we when we publish this video. And, you know, fedora design team, the primary helm for that really is the hyper kitty mailing list and the pager repo where all the issues are tracked. Alexandra, you have a question. Can we start a thread for example on discussions fedora project or to like, ask community for ideas for the sub logos for various fedora apps. Like, bring your brainstorm stuff just just randomly through through in whatever you think we called the representation should be in this in this form and then like, use it as a basis. What do you think would it work? Well, we're not really positioned to do that yet. That's sort of a post F 35 timeframe type of thing because right now I mean I'm already sort of beyond my capacity in terms of getting just. Yes, but for you to do the work right it's just for community to play the idea to try to come up with various whatever crazy associations they have with the different services. Yeah, I just think it's a little premature at this point though because I don't want to set up expectations that oh you're going to come up with something and then it's just going to work because I want everything to be sort of very carefully. Be very thoughtful about sort of the just sort of the visual continuity between the different marks that are produced. So that's why I'd really like to just kind of follow the timeline that set and then as we start like as new requests up deal with them which you know again like easy fix ask and the the discourse site or like some that have started to come up. And as they come up sort of figure out what are the different principles here what are the different aspects that kind of change how we might do a mark. How does that mark, you know, and just sort of organically build up a library of marks that have been very deliberate and consider it. And once we have sort of that library of marks to look at, once we get to the point, and I'm assuming it'll be past f 35 that we start looking a little bit more inward looking at those apps like coji and body will have a library of really nicely and carefully designed marks already that then folks could look to as a model to follow, you know what I mean like it's sort of like a whole visual library of things that will work. I think that if you started at this point and you tried to come up with marks like, I think you could probably start brainstorming concepts but to actually render the marks. You don't really have a lot to go on because we haven't built up that. Yeah, I was thinking, you know, in the direction of less serious thing. I was just thinking like imagine people on Twitter when you come with the range of this sub sub bloggers to them, and they will try to create me memes from from this like do it just for fun, not for actual things but you may be right it's like worth doing it slightly after we established a main trend so it will be more visible and more like seen from from that work. Like somebody shared a cat version of our logo on on Reddit recently that's that's been on the old one or the new one. The other thing is like I don't know, like, as the maintainer of the logo, like, I don't know how far I can get into that stuff and have it appear like an official like I'm fine if people want to have fun. But like I also don't want to have to ruin it right. That's yeah. Yeah, and I also don't want to cause any kind of confusion as to like well Mo laughed at that so that's approved we can do like I don't I don't want to get into that but I do appreciate fun memes and I think people should do them without officially without officially approving them. The memes they may need to operate outside of the actual Fedora project for its own good. Yeah. But yeah I mean again like when we do these things. When we do these things I like doing them in the open on typically that is in the design ticket queue, but um, you know every now and then I will like if a bunch of us are thinking about a mark, it might become a Twitter thread to like what do you think about this go to this bigger ticket. The other thing that I wanted to do that I kind of got the idea from JWF is to do like a community blog post this is coming. And then I think from that because it auto links to discussions. Then that would also start a thread on discussions so it will sort of be in sync. And we can kind of just give people heads up that this is coming is set up that repo, which I think is a great idea. And maybe seed it with some of the stuff from the timeline that we already have written up so people kind of can see just from what's already there the level of what we're looking for. I think that might be good too and it might give people heads up so I don't think it's going to be shocking. People are familiar with this logo they've seen it before it's been over two years in the making, but maybe they didn't know that f 34 was when we were planning to have it come out. So having that little soft heads up might help to in terms of like people being shocked or whatever and they can feel like, you know, we're listening to them and that they can have a discussion about it on the discourse so. All right. People in the chat are also talking about telegram stickers and I know we are talking with matrix element about sticker sticker Fedora sticker set. Once that's ready to go. I think it looks like for telegram you can actually just add them from a certain put them a certain format of the link and anybody can add them. I'm not quite sure how we already have me to me stickers and also federal stickers as well in some sticker packs so it's already out there. But somebody actually do that. That is something that if people have ideas for sort of like poses I don't even know what you will call like the individual poses in a sticker pack right but if people wanted to brainstorm that right away and come up with like a list. That would be super helpful at that stage be at this stage because right now we have an intern who is working on some amazing redesigns of the Fedora character family you know you have the panda the badger beefy. There's a few other sort of supporting actor characters. And she's sort of revamping them so they have like they're all sort of the same family and have the same visual style and everything and like I've seen early sketches and they look amazing. So I could totally see doing each of the Fedora characters in a series of those poses for a sticker set. And I did actually, I'm in the process of because this intern was supposed to do a 12 week stint that she's halfway through. And we were able to extend her an internship towards the end of the summer so she'll actually have time in the summer to maybe work on a sticker pack as her next chunk of work so I would love to see that but we need to know like well what are the poses that they're going to do. So if people have specific poses they'd like to see you know I'd love to see that come from the community. Awesome. Okay we are at the hour here so thank you again. This is great and I'm really excited about this coming to reality. See you next month everybody on the video and you know on the internet in the meantime. Bye.