 There's a lot of climate activists, there are a lot of youth that are really rising up and saying enough is enough. And part of that is the tension against the corporations and the generations that are holding the current status quo. And part of that is developing new thinking, new systems, new communities, new language even of how we're going to future, how we're going to lean in and move into that future. Kind of thinking of it as like shining a flashlight and figuring out what's probable, what's plausible and what's possible and really leaning into the decisive factors that we can have a locus of control around. Leon Wang is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas, brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Leon or Wang Li Zong is genderqueer Taiwanese second generation American. They them key kin who is able-bodied with an invisible neurodiversity. In essence, they are auto-catalyzing connector, exploration facilitator and network weaver. At heart key is an extreme generalist that is creating conduits towards by-writer futures. Leon leverages deep expertise and life-centered design, nature-inspired creativity, emerging technologies and justice equity, diversity, inclusion which stands for Jedi. So should you hear me or Leon say Jedi, you'll know what that means, justice, equity, diversity, inclusion to amplify change agents to create and involve more optimal and well-adapted solutions. In the last six years, Leon has engaged deeply in diverse doings with trailblazing organizations like Sustainable Ocean Alliance, Buck Minister Fuller Institute, 1.5 Singularity University, Biomimicry 3.8, Starting Block, Playground of Empathy and Rethink that are all thought leaders in the impact space. Leon is a certified biomimicry professional with an MS Biomimicry from ASU, Arizona State University and a Bachelor of Science in Bioengineering from UCSD. Leon is bravely shifting our dreaming, knowing, being and doing in this world to be more people-positive, complexity-conscious and life-liberating. As an anti-bias, anti-racist, intersectional environmentalist, they also strive to bring awareness to critical unlearning of systems of oppression and radical brave spaces. He invites attention, intention and repetition towards active shaping of more just, equitable and diverse and inclusive Jedi futures for all life. Leon, welcome to the podcast. It's so great that you're here. Thank you, Mark, for that lovely introduction. That is the bio that I've been throwing around all over the place as I start to weave my own identity and how I talk about myself. Obviously, speaking as pretty much an extreme journalist myself and you as well, there's just so many pieces to ourselves, so my multifaceted grooves, shall we say, to our human being that words are never enough. And so we're here in conversation just for that. And so super grateful for the time we get to spend here and also everyone else listening through deep time and expansive space to connect and thread what we're about to weave together. I really appreciate it. I love your background and thank you for throwing up the emojis as we speak. You really have this nice techno lust a little bit. You're very technologically savvy but you're very grounded in the symbiotic earth and the art spaceship earth is truly your home that you're truly connected to. We can hear that through your bio but also sense that and what you've done and your path not only in your educational path. I wanna start out right with a bang and get into some craziness that the whole world's been experiencing this past 12 plus months that we've been living in the pandemic, Black Lives Matter, people of color, Asian racism, the inauguration, oh my God, let's not forget that craziness and all the other absurd, extremely crazy things going on in our world during this time that we need to take respect for but also have really shook the entire planet in a big way and you've been on this path and you're not old grandpa like me but you have definitely put in the time to get your education with some great institutions and done some wonderful things up until this point. Really love Singularity University, I love Biomimicry 3.8, you know that I had Mark Dorfman on the podcast as well from Biomimicry 3.8 and you're a fan or somehow connected to Ada Paris who's also been on the show and I've had other guests who've also been on Singularity on the show. This path and this education has opened your eyes and I'm sure there's been tons of learning lessons in that process to really how the world works, how technology works and I would hope that you've seen some better models for life and I'm sure you have but has any of that helped you to weather this crazy time? Are you saying, man, we're just repeating the same mistakes that my forefathers, my parents, my relatives experienced and how have you weathered and are there any learning lessons that you can share with us? Things that really were aha moments or even if you don't mind, sad moments where you also maybe had a learning lesson? Yeah, Mark, what a wonderful question to start us off and not necessarily with a bang but really just really recognizing the reality and rooting where we are now, where we've been this last, it's been over a year of 15 months, right, kind of the state of the world. I've always loved the term Anthropause, so speaking of Anthropocene, but we're really just at a standstill because our systems, our communities just weren't ready for this and I won't say all because some were, some managed and adapted accordingly but primarily across the board, it has been quite the last 15 months of just multiple, multiple crises, right, kind of global crises, whether it's COVID itself for public health, whether it is the social uprisings, none of which I knew, but a lot of people are coming to recognize and realize and participate than before to climate change, a lot of our sea level rising, the wildfires here in California, there's just been so much more I think awareness and mindfulness and I'm wishing that there's a lot more of a paradigm shift individually as well as collectively, but yeah, to bring it back to myself and my own story, there's been quite a year, actually, speaking of the love for St. Louis University, it was a wonderful community to be a part of, but I did leave the company not of my own desire because we had multiple ways of a reduction in force, so starting off of January, 2020, that was when I moved back home to my family in Southern California and the pandemic hit. So that was really, in my opinion, a blessing and disguise because what a gift it is to be back home with my parents and to be supportive of each other, what a gift it is to have spaciousness and empty space to adapt and figure out and turn inward how I wanna be for myself, how I wanna be for my communities, for the connective network that I have across the world and everything flocked to the internet. So I think I just got exposed to so much more than I could ever dream of and was doing major projects with Biomimicry folks, was doing a lot of community holding of innovators space. So a shout out to Monica Kang from Innovators Box, shout out to people of the global majority and the Outdoors Nature and Environment, EGM-1 for holding space and the bird of space for all BIPOC people who love nature and really imagining my own future and kind of incubating in that sense. But as with everyone else, I think I burned out. I probably burned out probably towards September of last year. Really took a deep dive, I think, a mix of just everything that I was doing at once but also not paying attention to what I was missing, right? Like the connection, the presence, being with others beyond just my parents, which they're lovely, but they're my parents. So I love you, mom and dad. And just wanting and yearning for a lot that I wasn't able to get access to for the sake of our safety and our health. And so I think I recognize, I rationalize a lot of that as wanting to be protective of my parents, but really what I was doing was I was trading my own personal health for theirs and the promise of theirs. And so there's this balance, I think, for all of us, those boundaries and really understanding that. So I went through a pretty depressive period from September to March. That was kind of one of my lowest points, I would say, just not really understanding my own brain chemistry and how difficult it was to get out of that. I knew where I was at and knew how to get out of it, but I just didn't have the necessary motivation or energy or intentions to do it. And it had nothing to do with my identity or what was going on. I was very privileged to be in a safe place, not have to worry about finances, not have to worry about a lot of other things. And that's already a gift in and of itself, but even then, yeah, I think mental health is one of those things that we don't talk about enough, especially in the Asian community. And it was hard for me to figure out how to get beyond that. And like I said before, a big piece of it was the brain chemistry. What did lift me out of it was at some point, I just reached out to your friend from the starting block community and just put on an ask, they were working for our lovely organization. I was like, I love and have followed this organization for a year. Can we make something work? I'd love to engage. And that led to an interview and a project assignment. I think it was that project assignment that really, with that time bound, that intention and I love the term sort of urgent optimism to do something. I definitely sparked my brain, my brain chemistry came back, a lot of the neurochemicals probably rewired my brain back to where I needed to be. And that can be myself again. And so really removed that fog. And I would say March is when I kind of started my own journey of letting people in. I prefer that over the term like coming out per se of like who I actually am. I've been sharing a lot of that in full transparency and full desire, not from an ego perspective, but from how this can help catalyze others or inspire others and lift others. I think recently in the last few months when people ask me the age old question, how are you? I usually answer just with the metaphor that I feel like I'm at the peak of my life and still climbing. And that's specific to me, but if you ask me the question of like, how are we or how are us all speaking to pronouns that expand beyond our ego? I feel like there's also the, to build on the metaphor, I'm not only climbing and not that peak, but I'm lifting others in relation as I climb. I am really enjoying the view of what that looks like of what our world and the state of our world is. There's a lot of calamity and a lot of, I think, anxiety and negatives, but there's also a lot of beauty and resilience in the face of that. And so for me and where I am at in my own view, I think there's just so much to be learned from what it means to be in right relationship. And I say that to include everything, right relationship with ourself, right? How we talk to ourselves, how we have our own inner saboteurs as RuPaul might say it, our inner demons, the voice that we use, which comes from early childhood, like how our loved ones talk to us and then how we internalize our own experiences to the perspective of right relationship with others in each other. And speaking to the Jedi perspective, what does that look like, especially in our current systems? And then to our relationship, right relationship to land, waters, nature or earth or other more than human beings and kind of that kind of sentence and understanding what is our relationship to? Perhaps the stars. I don't know how people want to phrase that, but spirituality takes many different names and terms, but there's sort of that beyond what we can really truly measure or know in a sense, right? I mean, as much as I love science, I have to recognize limitations. And there is a lot of that and there's a lot of that that I think is just so interesting to unravel and understand. So long answer, but I think that kind of gives you just the real intentionality in where I've been and why now I'm so should be proponent of talking about mental health, of getting the resources each of us and all of us need, whether it's individually or in community to process that no matter what it is we're dealing with because I'm a big lover of the individualization perspective which is to say each of us have gone through our own experiences and a range of emotions and that is what's created who we are in this moment and who we will be. And so to have more awareness and understanding that, speaking to being a very much like a savior person, it's not just the intelligence, there's also the emotional intelligence, there's also, and there's so many quotients, right? IQ, EQ, AQ, adaptability quotient, which is very relevant to our current times and this new world we're constantly evolving into. So, yeah, I say I'll put to say, there's a lot of wisdom out there, there's a lot of wisdom inside of each of us as well. And I think a lot of that in my own journey has been really considering how do I tap into that and how do I honor that and how I surface it and integrate it in my own doings and self-actualize. I think that's the biggest piece. You brought up a couple of interesting things. First of all, thank you so much for sharing that very intimate and look at what you've gone through and I'm glad that in March, things turned and you're doing well and you've found a revitalized narrative and story and energy as well. Was that project that you did, was that with Rethink or who was that with? Can you tell us? Which part, do you mean the biomimicry projects? Yeah, the one that you called up your friend and asked what project was that with Rethink or that's a different one? That was actually my current workplace home. So Martha Kovahos, she previously was full-time staff at Starting Block and then moved to work for Sustainable Ocean Alliance and my reach out was for that organization and that's what landed me in my current role and I'm an associate for the Ocean Solutions Accelerator and so that's a nonprofit really diving deep on Sustainable Adult and Goal 14, which I'm sure you're familiar with like below water and how do we talk about and galvanize solutions for the future of our oceans? Yeah, great. Yeah, I have some friends with Parley TV and they do a lot with the oceans as well. You've probably heard of them and I think there's a lot that we need to do for the oceans but I thank you for telling us about that project. Really, it's really interesting that you've had that experience and that you had it come, September to March kind of in this funk that really took you in some tough ways. Do you think that there was a lot of outside things causing that and you're pretty good at saying, a lot of it was with me and things that I needed to do and then you mentioned this wisdom kind of and I see us all and I love libraries. You know, I love books from my podcast and everybody there, but we're really in this library earth, the biggest library ever and that's surrounding us all the time but it's funny how we can be surrounded by books and wisdom and knowledge and still feel lonely, still feel health issues and not be able to hear or see. It's almost like we're in some respects desensitized or numb or just because of our own health, we just can't see it or it's even painful to look and see it. Were you dealing with any of that at all? Yeah, and talking about my own neurochemistry, this is my depressive period is something that I'm still trying to understand and whether it is kind of a shifting between a very depressive period versus a very manic period and trying to be more aware of what that looks like for my own mental health. I love the term sustainable ambition that I heard from Icona which is a global center for entrepreneurial mental wellness and what does it mean to lean into something like that? Like to make sure that we are taking care of ourselves as the vessel that is transmuting and is a conduit to all the wonderful ideas, all the things that we do in the physical realm, all the things that we dream, our real experience of knowing and connecting, right? And I think going off of your point, it is this feeling that I think to this day and age, we're a species now that is highly disconnected even with all the technology that we have. I wanna call in some words that were shared by me through Lily's son who's another starting blocker when I was recently in San Francisco in the land of the Ramatash people. And she told me from her, I think elder, someone else that had passed these words, this simple phrase of, as a human species, this is the most primitive age that we're in. And I wholly believe that because even with all the technology even with all the privilege and the resources and the abilities that we've been masked, there has been no time in human history that we've caused really the loss of so much life, of so much legacy, of so much liberation, right? I think there's just very mind boggling to think what's the root of all that because the future is here, we have the solutions. It's just not distributed to bring in another lovely quote. It's not fully accessible. And for me, that perspective of, yeah, being in a beautiful library, whether it's looking at nature because each thing in nature is a beautiful cornucopia of engineering, of life, of inner workings and also wisdom if we're able to really listen to those voices, speaking to the German term umwelt, each self-centered world, not just species but each organism has its own experience, right? Each human is very different in how they experience the world with their wide range of diversibilities and neurodiversity. So there's this perspective, I think, and why I'm so fascinated by people and our integration and connection, that's everything, right? Being able to be connected to something and to be able to integrate it. Otherwise, what value does it actually have in our individual lives, right? Sort of the whole, you know, if a tree falls in the forest, does anyone actually, no one's around to hear it? You know, did it really fall? Did it make a sound? Very, very, very shortings or shortingers can as well, right? Like, once we start to measure it, can we really measure it? Can we really actually get there? That's a very fascinating thing and why I'm so, and I'm sure you as well is trying to understand, maybe just be with the mystery and be okay with it, not necessarily answered, but sitting with it. I think for all of us in these dire times, there's just been more time to pause or slow down and, yeah, kind of wonder, well, actually, why didn't I notice all this nature around my home that I actually really love being with or seeing or witnessing? Why didn't I realize how lovely it is to just have a really solid conversation with someone halfway around the world when normally I'm so busy in my day-to-day talking with my cohabitants, with my co-workers, whatever it might be that's place-based. We're finding, I think, more and more connections and threads that have always been there, that they've never loved, but we just didn't pay attention to them. We just didn't feel them. And I think that's also true for me and for a lot of people in this time of feeling a lot of ancestral trauma but recognizing there's also the flip side of that, which is ancestral healing and ancestral strength and ancestral wisdom, going up with the words of Dr. Amaz and I think it's a beautiful thing that we're now starting to, not necessarily lean into a new level of consciousness, but just be more aware and intentional. And I try to lean into it in person for myself but also for all the other people that I'm connected or have the privilege and gratitude to be connected in conversation and in place or in orbit with. So on the profile picture that you provided me for your bio and for your thumbnail, you have a lot of tech on your head and there's a lot of tech there. And this goes back to what I said earlier. You're kind of a techie. You know technology, you've been at, you've done the studies, but also I'm sure you're experienced in that, but you have this nice balance with Buckminster Fuller Institute, the Biomimicry 3.8, the Research Assistant of Biomimicry Center, on and on that this tie to environment, tie to the earth, tie to looking at materials and nature in a different way. So for me, looking outside and I don't know you well enough, but I would say, wow, that's a nice balance. But first of all, explain what in the heck is all that tech on your head? Maybe give us a dive on that so that when we see the picture, we have a little bit better understanding. And then after you do that, I want you to kind of explain, so you've got this nice experience, understanding of tech and this extreme knowledge about nature, environment, our world, Biomimicry. And even though both of those tools, because there are tools that you have before this happened, how did you get out of it if you can tell us or maybe you're still going through that process? Did any of that help? Did any of it make it worse? And were there any learning lessons there as well? And I'll caveat why I'm leading you down this way. The entire world, or at least here in Germany, we've been on this curfew, lockdown, it's been extreme. And people are getting ergonomic issues from working from their couch, from their bed, their depressed, they're fighting with their spouse, they're strangling their kids. There's all these things going on. So the future of new work, which we've both been talking about or hearing about for decades, it's changing. It has changed and it will change even more, but that all kind of ties into all the stuff that I just asked you. And so I would love to get some more lessons there if you don't mind. Yeah, thanks for that prompt and the curiosity of the tech. It's actually, that was a photo taken by Nick Otto, who was an amazing photographer for us at Singularity University. Loved all of his headshots that you probably see a lot of the executives that went through our programs, sport on their own websites or LinkedIn's. And the tech that was wearing at that time was a project that we were doing in the Uncommon Partners Lab at Singularity University, which I was under that team with. Yeah, the focus of that was really to think about how do we, going back to the Schrodinger's perspective, how do we measure the human brain and our experience and understand the more granular response and experience as we, let's say, listen to a lecture or think about something that's very complex. Those that was a Cognionic, which is a multiple-point EEG without a need for usually the trouble with those is you need contact for conductance, electrical conductance. So either you need a shaped head or you need a lot of, you know, conductive liquids or paste to allow that to for work. But that's, I think NudeTech has provided ways to have it. So it is just, you know, contact-based rather than more of a gooey mess. And then I was wearing, I think Toby eye-tracking glasses. So I ended up with a photo that looked very futuristic, looked very, you know, almost Terminator-esque with a bit of a red light at the bottom. So just love the framing of that. And then to go back to, yeah, where we're leading into this world of the future of work. And I want to recognize work itself as a very capitalistic word, right? Like it's obviously something that we tie to currency and value and production and squeezing of the human capital, right? The human being. It's a nasty four-letter word. It's a nasty, very nasty four-letter word. And even the other word job is just another acronym for just overbroke. So neither of them are very good. Huge, huge fan of acronyms and thanks for sharing that. Yeah, I believe in just saying doings because, you know, especially for those of us who work in impact spaces and spaces that are really thinking about, you know, justice, thinking about social good, thinking about more than human species, right? The environment, our planet. I don't think I want to categorize that as something that should be have a price tag or something that needs to be in competition or that's something that needs those mentalities. And so to speak of not just, you know, my doings or the future of doings itself, but also the current status of a lot of people in various corporations or small to medium-sized businesses that are, you know, trapped in this current time based on our constraints, I think there just needs to be a lot more futuring in what we want that new way of working or new way of doing to look like. And there are a lot of people that have read that and one that I will offer forever and always uplifts and in which a lot of my language comes from as well is Raven Work by Aaron Dignan. He started the Ready, which is the consultancy side that does this work. And they've just launched an amazing platform called Mermer, which is also bio-inspired as well. Mermer being kind of the reference to memorizations of birds or other, you know, large schools of organisms that are able to maneuver and move without necessarily communicating based off of simple rules, just understanding, you know, an agreement with each other or the benefit of the good, right? Benefit of the entirety of that community, shall we call it. And so they bring a lot of points on what it's meant to lean into work that is people positive, that is complexity conscious. And then personally, I added my own literation which is life-liberating, right? And I think all of these are so important and have a lot of facets to them to speak to, you know, for the people positive side. Yeah, how are we making sure we're taking care of ourselves going back to that sustainable ambition to understand that, you know, we're human, we have limitations, we have needs and desires. How do we find that sweet spot in our agreements and our values and our operating principles to allow for that full human complexity, right? And then going to what does it mean to be complexity conscious, like especially being an agile and nimble organizations or projects that have so many moving pieces and are answering complex problems themselves, you know, especially in environment and especially in social worlds. It doesn't make sense to have something that's static or non-dynamic, right? We have to move towards the ability to hold a lot more complexity, the ability to, yeah, going back to our love for systems thinking, like understand not just the, I don't really understand, but have the flow and have the strategy that allows for emergence, right? I think, you know, another, you're gonna hear me reference so many people in books because these are kind of the giants that I stand on the shoulder of and have also been hugely grateful to also share some space with. So Emergent Strategy by Adrian Murray-Brown is another one that's drastically shifted my own view of what it means to, yeah, take this system's perspective but also understand it from a real human being and where my role comes in. And so there's a lot of principles there that really speak to me and to give it an example there is like, you know, moving at the speed of trust or there's always enough time for the right work. I think we're, as humans, there's a construct of time and there's what is enough and I love that framing because it's the question isn't, where is the time gonna come from? The question is, what is the right work for this time that we have? And there's just a lot to speak to that. And I can totally ramble. So feel free to pause me or to interject. I kind of, I think answer this question, maybe derailed it, but feel free to bring me back to the core of it. I mean, do you wanna, did you have any aha moments or moments where either of those either drew you into the depression because of what you're seeing with the way the world was going or because maybe technology was or maybe nature was in the severe destruction? And if not, that's okay as well. Did you use either of those to kind of pull yourself out or was it total disconnect and then going forward by speaking to other friends and it was just a moment when you were clear or that was kind of, I just, and if there wasn't that you don't have to address it, I just wanted to see if there was any learning lessons there. Yeah, thanks for reframing that. I actually, I love that prompt because it's both end. I feel like both the tech because of the overexposure to the rest of the world and what's happening in our world and obviously the big empath and I took a lot of that internally so that definitely had an impact on my own health and well-being nature for sure. But it's more of the disconnect, right? I was at home, I was locked in, I could have gone out but I think there's this fear in my head obviously that I didn't want to risk my health but also especially the health of my parents, right? And so the disconnect from that and it also brought a lot of tension and put me in a not so great place. But then on the flip side what kind of reconnected me and the vitalize, it's the same exact thing, right? Kind of tech, but tech being used in a mindful way. Like I've always said like Instagram for me, IG, IG stands for there's a fine line between intentional generation and instant gratification. And so utilizing IG as something that is an ego base for me wouldn't have been good like seeing a lot of the lives do great things and compared to myself that just brings me even further down. But then if reframe it and utilize it as like you're saying a library as a way and this is why I follow as you've seen like probably 3,000 plus people or handles is it's become a really wonderful funnel for me to follow the actual voices and generators of things that I love. And perspectives that I appreciate. And I think there's power in any kind of technology but it all comes down to the agency, right? It's like all comes down to how we're using it what's our relationship with it and going back to our relations and anything can be anything in the spectrum and it's really the context, right? And for me there's a bit of a as I'm more mindful of this like what is not just the tech but the creative and the art side to how I'm now curating my relationship with it. And that's an ongoing oftentimes evolving optimization that I'm constantly tinkering with. And yeah, just very appreciative of both facts. And then also just now that things are opening up getting more access to the creator outdoors and feeling more comfortable with that even though I definitely still appreciated the small connections to nature the plants that are in my household or just in our yard and really sitting and listening and being with them. I also watch the sunrise every morning. It's sort of a really anchoring ritual for myself to tribute and honor and understand, you know what is the core and the spawn of our world and to recognize we're constantly hurtling through time and space and at high speeds and just fascinated by what it means to have both that increase in velocity and acceleration but also to have the stillness on the inside. So yeah, quick, quick wrap up to that question. Hopefully that gives you better. Yeah, no, that's fine. I appreciate you going so deep. And there's two directions I wanna go before we go there just I believe you came. So although I love Singularity University I do a lot, I know Salim Ishmael, Peter Diamandes Ray Kurzweil, many, many others. They ran into some trouble and it wasn't around diversity but it was around some other issues lost some funding and had some controversy in the news and I'm not sure if that was before your time or not but you also were on the co-chair of diversity there and that was that after that time and did you see a drastic change and things, some of the problems I believe it was just one or two professors there that had some issues at one time. Yeah, I mean, I've been connected to the specific issues and the fires necessarily. I was a diversity inclusion equity movement. It's a DM recognizing it's like a day-to-day thing, a daily practice. It was a co-chair with two other wonderful women, Stacey Maldonado and Molly Pyle, great individuals but we were also an employee resource group that wasn't necessarily funded or given a lot of space and power to do much even though we had influence and tried to really shape the programs themselves and then a lot of the fiascos per se were sort of after my time, I left in January 2020 which I think was also the result of a lot of just, you know, eggs in the wrong baskets perhaps or just a lot of decision-making that didn't necessarily make sense for where we were at. So, yeah, kind of above my head. Yeah, it's not even that important but it's just kind of interesting because and then, yeah, the uncommon lab and that, there's a lot of beautiful things that you've experienced, you've been part of and I really appreciate you sharing those. It goes right into my next question for you and it's really kind of, we're gonna pull back and get into an overview effect, a cosmic perspective and I wanna know your thoughts on global citizenship, global citizenry, maybe even if you wanna tickle on globalization but your thoughts and feelings on how do you feel about a world with humanity divided one from another especially during this crazy time, this extreme nationalism that's uprising and occurred and how would you feel if there was a world without nations and borders and divisions of humanity one from another, although you're a second generation American, you are Taiwanese and have that tie there. I'm American but my relatives are all German and English, Irish and I live in Hamburg, Germany. I feel like I'm a global citizen but the main thing is, is during the pandemic the COVID was a global citizen, food, water, air was a global citizen and species were a global citizen and so I would just like to know your thoughts and feelings if there is something there that would maybe be, if it wasn't there the world would be a little better or what your thoughts and feelings are. Yeah, I appreciate this prompt and also I recognize we dove in so I didn't really do my usual introduction that I generally like to introduce myself and so I'd love to dive into that if we can and this is sort of a practice that I think I've picked up from a lot of Indigenous ways of introducing themselves as well specific to shout out to Barbara Wall, Robin Wall Kimmerer's sister who has a lot of wonderful studies especially in the environmental space. So,大家好, my name is Wang Lizong I'm from Taiwan then and basically, hello, friends, family, kin, folks I am Leon Huang I go by the name Keek and pronouns my parents are people from Taiwan Taiwanese people, that is my blood and I'm currently tuning in from I usually like to say the unceded ancestral lands that are once shared and stewarded by multiple tribes actually, the Gabrileño Tomba tribe the Gishnation, the Kahwila and Lousenio Indians and so when we introduce ourselves this way it's not just who I am but it's who I'm in relation with and who I hold responsibility to and that changes, you know whether I'm in different places or in different contexts but this is sort of my current core identity of not just blood but also land I think those are two very important things but I also appreciate bonds of milk so sort of bonds that we spend time with being queer, I think chosen family is just as important to the intentionality as we bring to our moments and yeah, kind of going back to this what does it mean to be a citizen or to be part of a country or an identity bound by that kind of framing or of different nations and nationality I think there's this, for sure this ancestral root that I think no matter who we are there's something to draw back from and even further beyond our own human species and to me, global citizenship is definitely something I identify with which is why I have the United Nations flag in my profiles because I have to recognize where I grew up in my framing as American I can't get away from that that's sort of the systems and the thinking and the American dream which really is an American nightmare that I was brought up on but wanting and yearning for much more going back to the right relations that we are all human and we all are part of life and so moving beyond that not just kind of othering that I think nationhood provides to moving towards a sense of belonging we're all here and we all want our species to thrive and to flourish and it currently isn't for many reasons and I think nationhood or sort of this othering is a big part of that and especially to going off of population and human species we are growing at such a fast exponential whatever you wanna call it, rate there's gonna be a collapse this is time and time again if you look at nature any species that has taken over or dominated eventually has some sort of collapse and I don't know how far we are away from that but just seeing the limitations that we're hitting and seeing the reality for a lot of lived experiences it's kind of unfortunate and harrowing I think we're also giving humanhood to corporations which I also think is a fascinating thing like sometimes corporations and companies are more human than we are and how do we balance that? And so to hear you speak what does it mean to be of our globe of spaceship Earth is I think what I personally mean towards and what I want I also love, you know, Bucky, Buckminster Fuller's quote that on spaceship Earth there are no passengers, we're all crew and so there's a bit of agency there, right? Like no one is a bystander no part of nature or life is a bystander and I think the disconnect the othering is what's causing a lot of that tension and especially othering from nature the reason why we even have the term nature or how to term wild is that we've somehow separated the human from that when all along, you know we could never, we've never loved we just don't think about it or connect or have the intentions as many of our elders had in the past. So that's kind of my framing of that. I absolutely love it. Thank you for sharing that. It's so important and I really would like to know a little bit more of your learnings and your wisdoms from or what led you to Buckminster Fuller Institute, Bucky's Institute and what you did there and what your experiences were, what, why, how can't tell us as much as you can about that. He was actually the second person to term Spaceship Earth and to kind of define that we're all crew members. The first person I have his book right here one of his books right here, it's Kenneth Holding and he wrote the book, The Future. It's funny how one of my many titles or ways that people describe me they'll say Mark's a sustainable futurist or a resilient futurist or regenerative futurist whatever and what the hell does future have to do with environment or naturalism or nature? And it's really crazy that how many people don't realize that it has everything to do with the future has to do especially if you're gonna reach the future if you're sustainable and if you're thinking about that Spaceship Earth and the environment because it processes you he was the first person to term the coin the term so to say Spaceship Earth and then Bucky was the second but I've always been fascinated out of Paris as part of that as well and many other of my friends are and colleagues that I see as mentors and dear friends that are speaking about that. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about that if you don't mind. Yeah, it's actually a very recent engagement for me. It's only in the last couple of months since I surfaced I somehow, I think actually in regenerarizing which is when Ada Paris presented a lot of their projects from that cohort and that community got connected into Buckminster Fuller Institute and since then I have been leaning into the project which is the cooperating manual for Spaceship Earth and we'll share a link in the records but this is sort of how do we think about because we are on the Spaceship Earth and there needs to be a manual there needs to be some way to understand what's going on, the whole rundown but also the operating principles and how we're gonna collaborate and really be stewards and be able to help steer into the future, right? I think when I say future there's also I think there's also this tendency to think future far away but it's exactly as some of the projects that you're working on especially with evolving and staying with the evolving goals to be the resilient frontier that's time bound which I think is very important the future isn't someplace that we're never gonna see it's actually much closer than any of us think. I think there was a wonderful quote that I came across from Reverend Gerard Williams that said, the future is your next breath and I think when I heard that it really hit just this concept of time that we are sitting in so for me, Buck Mr. Fuller Institute that has been a lovely experience to be sort of an advisory and helping shape that platform and that tool and how we're going to meet into that important doing and then recently I've been a part of this current space camp so I'm trying to have space camp that they run often this one has been a wonderful experience because it's bringing in expertise from Tom Chi who was part of Google X but now does a lot with that one ventures in the environmental space with Jane Benius who was the one who coined by memory and then with Barbara Wall as I mentioned before and next week I think we have Menace which is a lead in design so it's been wonderful to be in community in space with these folks but also be doing very specific missions that are time bound and how can we actually get something out there so I'm co-leading a mission with Cassandra Huin she was a wonderful bio designer actually based in Berlin and in Potsdam just a little outside of Berlin in Germany and yeah, we're looking at what we call future playground and what that means is this perspective not just working hard and playing hard but how do we revert that and invert that to be play soft and work softer and to recognize the importance of letting our inner child be part of a lot of this going back to the space of creativity of even a bit of naiveness because I think that's where when I see the youth in my life they're just so curious and they don't have any preconceived notions to hold them back and so the dreaming and the knowing that they can do is just something that's beautiful that I think needs to be tapped into across the board when we speak about intergenerational learning and doing and yeah, we're excited to unveil that in the near future I think that's all around we're focusing on oceans rising so looking at sea level rising and how do we really bring in narratives and inclusivity and participatory design to share those stories but also to galvanize some actions and I think that's going to be very exciting and keep an eye out for where that goes That's beautiful, I really appreciate you telling me about that and it's really interesting with the oceans as well yesterday I had a podcast with two absolutely amazing, wonderful authors of a book with three authors actually it's called a blueprint for coastal adaptations and it evolves all facets it's an island press publication and it really comes at a timely time it was just fairly released this month and it's uniting designed economics and policy around a blueprint for coastal adaptation and I had a discussion with them about this book is specifically focused on the United States although we know that coastal adaptation and those around the world are really affected but how much it really affects the United States and is unbelievable and how many places in the United States are being affected in big ways and then next week I have a podcast with Lawrence Krause he wrote the book The Physics of Climate Change and I'll tell you more not only does he start out the book and end the book with a sea level rising based upon his time and tour in Vietnam on the Mekong River but pretty much half of the book is talking about sea level rise and issues with the oceans and riverways or waterways and things so you're definitely in the right project you're doing the right things and I absolutely love that you tickled upon it a little bit there's gonna be a collapse you see you didn't say when but just that's how our world works there's gonna be a collapse especially with population you kind of caveat it with that there is this growing besides the pandemic even before the pandemic I think it made it worse during all the things we've experienced since this dis-ease or this unrest in humanity where we've kind of felt like oh, I'm just uncomfortable I'm not, I don't like the way things are going no matter where you live people are saying that and I don't wanna put words in people's mouth but is it a feeling of a collapse or a looming extinction? And the question is how do you feel that our current civilization frameworks are working for you? The United States and the globe Europe, Taiwan, China wherever you think there are civilization frameworks that influence you and your life and do you believe we're about ready or due for some new civilization frameworks or a new civilization framework? Yeah, no, 100% we are due for so many reworks and so many, not even just reworks I think just honestly I'd love to just put it aside and start something new because that it's a lot easier and a lot less tension and friction than to dismantle something which is what we're witnessing especially for the social unrest and the justice work and really the marathon that has been happening since the start of our own nation and many others speaking from a colonial perspective I think that's a history that we're gonna have to bear and have to process especially the trauma around and speaking of civilizations I've always loved Tyson Yocoporta and his book Sandhawk how indigenous thinking can save the world and framing that yeah, our cities, our nations are designed for growth which is endless infinite growth and the NFI night planet will not work but from his suggestion and as a solution of that is designing not for growth but for increase for if we think about the value of a dollar getting more dollars gets you more dollars but when you have the dollar change hands that kind of value is experienced within the system and so when I think about increase I think about, you know, Boris thinking about the Wood-Wide Web underneath how interconnected things are how does that look in resource and material exchange and usage I think we as nations and as corporations we are more we the corporations than we are we the people or even we the whatever the life or the kin that you might want to reference I think there is a need to recognize a lot of this has been creating cast has been creating a lot of inequality and a lot of detriment and trauma across the board and so who do we look to whether it's indigenous leaders and indigenous them which communities have been necessarily thriving because of the genocide and because of the othering but have held to a lot of principles that speak to what does it mean to be stewards or true custodial species on this planet what does it mean to look to nations like Taiwan that is in a very precarious situation you know with the colonizer especially China with a lot of governmental tensions but is experimenting so much in democracy I mean you've heard it from Audrey Tang herself and he's been doing wonderful, wonderful work and iterating and creating systems that allow for that kind of deep, deep democracy and those are conversations that I think are super important but those conversations need to also translate into actual actions and regulations and policy and that's a world that legally this world just moves too slow and so how are we gonna get to that that future is always a question on my mind for sure I appreciate you answering that and sometimes I get into this feeling that a lot of humanity have forgotten that there have been more than 20 civilization frameworks that have existed on our planet for early antiquity, early Mesopotamia, Incas, Aztecs, Mayas, Greeks, Romans, on and on and they're no longer here, they're gone and those were all collapses all but 20 of the, all but two of the 20 civilization frameworks we had collapsed because of an environmental or ecological collapse and only two of them aren't here because of other reasons and it's really interesting how I mean, I kind of feel a lot of people have forgotten about it matter of fact in the book I just mentioned from Lawrence Krause the physics of climate change he just basically goes and talks about the sheer physics it's basic, very basic physics and science and very simple math in there as well so it's not very hard to grasp but he says 98% of humanity is disengaged from climate that means there's 2% in this bubble or who are engaged but we're almost preaching to the choir and but I get this feeling and I'm kind of asking you not that you necessarily have your finger on the pulse of I'm not even sure are you a millennial or are you even a step below millennial? I think the step of the generation, why? Gen X, Gen Y, okay. Yeah, so I was born in 1992. And what, I mean, just in your circles or what you've experienced I mean, do you feel that that is common knowledge that we get in history, the big history so to say? I want to say I'm also in a bubble, right? I'm in an echo chamber of it of itself because of my networks and communities that I spend the most time with and I do recognize, I agree with you that the general larger public especially of the entire world so especially thinking about people the global majority that don't have access to even technology or access to some of the privileges that we do, we can't even expect them to have that education or literacy especially for sustainable development or generative goals in the future. So to speak to that, I think this is why it's so important to have our artists to have our creative people that are doing a lot of this storytelling and a lot of the meaning-making that then leads to the self-actualization of others, right? This is why I love Sustainable Ocean Alliance because they're also focusing on a lot of youth that we have programs and hubs all around the world in different countries and projects in those localities and a lot of microgrants that support that which is all about galvanizing a future generation that can not just speak to this but do things about it and hopefully in a timeline that isn't too late, right? And I think that's the beauty of creating a next gen that is much more aware and witnessing kind of the millennials and a lot of the tech that is being utilized that way, right? Like again, go back to agency there's a lot of climate activists there are a lot of youth that are really rising up and saying enough is enough and part of that is the tension against the corporations and the generations that are holding the current status quo and part of that is developing new thinking, new systems new communities, new language even of how we're going to future and how we're going to lean in and move into that future, right? Kind of thinking of it as like shining a flashlight and figuring out what's probable, what's plausible and what's possible and really leaning into the decisive factors that we can have a locus of control around. You believe that there's a plan an earth shot, a climate shot or a moon shot to get us safely to 2030 you know, I'm a sustainable development goal advocate so that's my moon shot, my earth shot but I mean for you specifically is it donut economics? Is it circular economy? Is it regenerative economics? Is it one of those or do you believe that there's a specific global plan for you and what is it? What's your opinion on that? Yeah, that's a hard one to answer because there's so much and obviously in a complex challenge and complex world to dive into but to speak for myself I think when I'm trying to put my own language around is speaking to the Japanese term I think I are like the reason for being what that's looked like for me is in this interstitial space, right? Like how do I work or do or be in such a way that I'm weaving in between? I know Ada Perse and her interview referenced La Debussy the music is a silence between the notes and I love that image because we're talking about the notes and the notes that we're so familiar with but who's looking at the silence? Who's weaving? Who's surfacing these threads and connections? And if I could wake my wand I would want everyone to really feel and know and have those conduits to you know, I've been terming as a brighter or brighter future, right? So the V in parentheses referencing you know, we need to speak to the Jedi perspective we need to speak to a brighter future but it's also not just for humans it's for all life, right? And what does that conversation look like? How do we begin to talk about that? Recognizing the limitations of science to understand the language of other species or even our limitations of understanding the language of others, right? I think it's the language the connection, the right relations that's I think where my love is and which is probably why I'm an extreme generalist kind of dancing in between all these systems and communities and also being sort of free agent to the way that Tyson, you can put in describes it as being that free agent that is creating and weaving and generating a lot more increase in our systems, right? Like pushing these resources and pushing these connections and seeing how that then will evolve because honestly, there's no way to guarantee anything. Anything can happen day to day, moment to moment especially from a climate and especially from a cosmopolitan perspective, right? Like we just don't know. And so I think for me, the core is speaking to systems that are more resilient systems that do have that regenerative perspective. And again, there's a lot there and there's a lot of weight there. And so going back to the standalone vision is thinking about what is each of our unique role in that because there is no other you, right? Like we can't forsake any person, any life and the value that they can bring to this larger intention and larger wish, larger dream for our planet. So yeah, I just want to end with that note. I'm glad you did. That's great. So I'm going to deliver you the hardest question I have for you today, which is the burning question. You've listened to the podcast before, so you've heard it. It's the burning question WTF. It's not the swear word, but it's what's the future? And I would like to know specifically for you what's your roadmap? What's the future? Yeah, so more like what's my journey ahead? What's on the horizon? Or what am I dreaming into the future? Well, I mean, I always like when, you know, it's almost like Simon Sinek's why or your purpose for existing or what's your roadmap and how are you going or how have you set up your plan to insuredly get to a certain point in the future? What does it look like? And whether it's your own prediction, but also maybe your map and mission to get to that point. I also like the fact that if you say, well, I'm going to be dramatically optimistic or extremely optimistic. And I'm really hoping or wishing, desiring this happens. Yeah, I appreciate that. I definitely do identify with having a lot of relentless optimism myself. And then going back to the extreme journalist point, I would say for me, I've always been thinking about that, that role and that roadmap for myself, it used to be wanting to be a keystone species. And so that would be, you know, someone who in all communities or ecosystems or systems that I'm a part of, I have this proportional impact, but I recognize that also means if I'm incapacitated or if I'm no longer in that system, that system collapses. And so that turned out to be not a great metaphor of how I want to show up in spaces, even though I really appreciated the terminology. And now I've kind of moved on to a different, being geeky sort of a physics perspective, I call myself a catalyzing connector. And what that means to me is really curating the space and creating the conditions that reactions can happen and happen in a way that doesn't, you know, completely drain me. And so what that looks like has been leaning into being more of an advisor than just a specific supporter or something or connecting people and letting them take that magic further because there's so many people like you said that need to be connected to ideas or wonderful humans or communities or resources going back to the library of earth that would really change their lives and change the way that they're able to impact our world. So I see myself now as like being and leaning into that side of the world. And then a friend came upon my chairman and was like, you know, there's this term called auto catalysis in chemistry, right? Which is a catalyzer in its reaction that then creates other catalyzers. And so I've kind of taken on that in addition to think in everything that I'm a part of, how do I become that auto catalyst? How do I create conditions and support others and uplift others going back to this like climbing that mountain and lifting others as I go? How do I create catalysts in them so that they can then spread this intentionality further? And I guess what I would wish for the world is just, yeah, more empathy, more right relations. I think if we have that, that is the basis to which a lot of flourishing, a lot of thriving will come from, which is just to say, yeah, going back to how to have right relationships with ourselves, you know, first and foremost, right relationships with each other and then right relationships with our world, our nature, right? There might be more on that transcendence, whatever it could be. I haven't gotten there yet, but if anyone wants to add more levels to that, I'm totally open in all years. So, yeah, at me. I really want to know, and this is for the listeners, if there was one message you could depart to my listeners as a sustainable takeaway that has the power to change their life, what would it be, your message? No, this is a hard one somehow. I'm like, now that I've listened to it and I'm a high person for so many other words and languages of wisdom from the people that I read and look up to in a community with, but yeah, my own phrase, what would I say? It's even totally fine if you use someone else's words that you like. And actually, let me bring up kind of being, I love puns, obviously, and I also love Gandhi and everyone has heard of Gandhi's quote, be the change you want to see in the world. But even that, I think is attributed wrong because there's a much larger quote of where that comes from. But I took that for sustainable ocean alliance because we're always in the doings of inventing new framing language that is ocean punny. So like instead of low hanging fruit, I like to say high floating kelp or like instead of hitting the ground running, we hit the ocean diving. And so I guess the message that I would say is, yeah. Do we the change you want to see in the world? What does it mean to be the anchor and to be sort of the waypoint for others? Being part of currents, speaking to ocean terms and doing why this is in my background for the last several months, is finding the emo had so many lovely motifs and stories about finding new, finding friends, finding people that we belong to and trying to go back home. What does it mean to go back to your home? Where are your roots? I think that's always a wonderful question for any of us to ponder and really learn about. Which never really ends, right? I think speaking to Robin Wall Kimmerer's words, I love the perspective that time isn't linear and time is almost a cycle or is ever present. And so that means our ancestors are not just behind us, but are also ahead of us and also with us. And so what does it mean to tap into some of that and to experience and access time, wisdom, intentions, roots, kind of this actual love that I've been feeling so much of recently. And generate that into your own self actualization and change. I think that's probably the message I would wanna leave right now. So there is this wonderful website that you shared with me and also this emergence, it's for a while, but I don't think we've seen it too much in the digital realm over the years, but it's intersectional environmentalism, lovely website, lovely purpose. Can you tell us any more about that? Are you affiliated with them? Are you an advisor for them? Do you just are supporting them? I think that's a great question. Do you just are supporting them? Yeah, are you an intersectional environmentalist? Yeah, thank you for asking. I'm not officially affiliated with them at the moment. I did have conversations with Leah P. Thomas, who's the one who galvanized that movement when she, I think something like July last year launched this messaging around, we can't have environmental movements without actually talking about social justice and it's not just planet, but people and planet. And so that sort of pledge really drew me in. And since then I've been a big supporter of this. And for sure, I call myself an intersectional environmentalist obviously being of many, many different identities and facets, whether it's queer or whether it's Asian and Taiwanese, whether it's gender queer, there's just so much, I think, to recognize in that deeply connected, we can't separate that people and planet. There needs to be an intentionality of both and there needs to be a reckoning of the current systems of repression and how we're operating. I really love the playing field, which is why I love a lot more movements recently, speaking of Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson and all that we can say, so much beautiful, beautiful work and anthology and again, lifting of beautiful, amazing women that have been doing a lot of this climate work that just isn't mentioned or talked about enough of. And so again, yeah, what other unknown unknowns are we not surfacing because of our current systems of repression and being speaking to that like ABR, anti-bias and anti-racist perspective, it's an ever-present, never-ending journey, right? I think it's a day-to-day thing. I'm not perfect, I don't think I ever will be and it's really going back to the intentionality and real unlearning, not just learning but unlearning what we've been taught, what we've been instilled as what kind of water we're breathing in at this moment, right? And not just recognizing it but actually doing something about it is the most important thing, right? Going back to the actualization, the manifesting, yeah. I believe you're still on your journey, you're still discovering, making connections, building your network, growing quite a bit and I've loved that you shared so much of that with us what have you experienced or learned in your journey so far, professional and non-professional that you would really have loved to know from the beginning where you say, boy, I would have started sooner, boy, I wish I knew that, is there anything? I think part of this is not limiting myself. I think we're taught to respect or understand hierarchy and we're taught to high parts of ourselves that apparently shouldn't be in certain spaces whether it's professional or work and I think there is such power and beauty in just being fully authentic and fully ourselves. And even for me, that is a constant journey, being positive for 26 years that's often left a very clear marker of how I show up in spaces and there's a lot of learning for myself to do there but if I were to go back and share with myself and share with anyone that's listening right now, yeah, don't let any external othering, any system prevent you from being authentic and it's a travesty that our work spaces or workplaces don't allow for that, right? And if I could wish for that is that we do have more and more leaning into that brave new work that again, is people positive and what does that actually look and mean and sound and feel like? But from a personal perspective, that's a hard one to get over and the sooner each of us find that lesson and kind of let go of that ego, honestly, the better, right? So. Leon, it's been a sheer pleasure. I really thank you for being on the show. It's been wonderful and I love the depth and all that you've shared with us today. That's all I have for you today and I hope we can do a catch up maybe in a year again and see how your life's going, how the journey's going. I'm sure you're gonna have amazing updates but I thank you for being on the show. It's been a pleasure. Yeah, thank you so much Mark for the conversation. It's the last hour and a half and just, yeah, for creating this platform for others to tap into many voices, many ideas. It's such a beautiful thing to be uplifting others and also recognize you yourself have been doing so much and just also wanna just wish gentle care and radical rest and filling your own vessel that you so generously spill for others in our world. So grateful for you, grateful to everyone who's listening to this across deep time. Please, yeah, reach out, connect, do, feel free to knock on the door or open a portal. Always happy to connect and catalyze yeah, important intentions and impact for all of our Shambhala warriors, shall we say, out there. Thank you so much and you really, you've filled my cup. You've actually given me that what I need and seek so much that keeps me going. And luckily I've been very fortunate to have some wonderful guests on it, also bring that nice exchange. So I thank you and you have a wonderful day. Give those wonderful parents of yours big hug and unknown hello from me and we'll talk to you again very soon, take care, Liam. Yeah, thank you so much. Bye for now, Mike.