 Ynglyn混, Yllghwith Arlun Dyma yn ymwybodaeth yw haes yn iawn ond Rhun ap Ierbydd Mawr yw hyn ar ei wneud yng Ngheir. Yn ystyth, mae'n golau'r pwgawr yma ar gyfer y gwasun yn gallu'n gwahanol yn teim Invadau gyfraith. Gawr hefyd ar y gwasun yma mae'n iawn ond y cyffaint yn y cyffaint, yn fawr mewn gwaith yma, bowd hynny yn teimlo ei gwirlo gweld ar gael sydd yn cwrs, a'r wybod yn cael ei ganod i fawr sydd ei arbennig aeth yw'n gwbeithio'r gweith. Ndwme also urged President Bahari to prevail on the national assembly to pass the proceeds of crime bill in time, regardless of the bickering on the management of the recovered proceeds. He said there was a need to look at the incidents of corruption, most especially those occasioned by public officers who are in trust of public wealth. Speaking further on how to address the menace, Ndwme said the government must go a step further to protect the whistleblowers. Joining us to discuss this is Tunji Abdulamid. He is a legal practitioner. Thank you very much for joining us, Tunji. What interests me the most is the part where we talk about the burden being on the individual to tell us where the source of their wealth is or how they make these monies. I remember when this government came into power, there was a thing about whistleblowing, so you could whistleblow. We saw a lot, so a few people did it, but then there were stories also that emerged of whistleblowers not getting the monies that the government promised to pay them. So here we are again having this conversation. Will it really ever work? You see, Nigeria's situation is peculiar, peculiar in the sense that we want to injure every problem on lack of law, lack of order, lack of whatever, whatever. You see the order or law is not our problem. The implementation and enforcement of those laws, the problem we are having, and that's why there was a corner. Enforcement. No, the particular whistleblowing blow was a blow. It did not work because it was not being implemented the way it should be, and that's why we are having problems. So that's why I'm one of those who don't believe in the fact that, look, our problem in these countries is about our law, our countries are about our president making an order or whatever. I don't believe in it. We have enough laws in this country. We have enough order from the president that can change the country. What we are lacking is the enforcement and the implementation. Just like excited, the kidnapper, sorry, whistleblowers law is not working because the government is not even being sincere in implementing it and enforcing it. Somebody will give information and that after that will be issued regarding his payment. So you can see where the problem is, and that's why the thing died naturally. You will give information and that after that your security is not... I was about to ask that. Where is the safety for the man who sticks his neck out there to blow a whistle and say, well, I've noticed that this person is spending or living a lavish life and I can't not put it side by side with what he does as his day job. And then at the end of the day, that person ends up dead. So where is the security? That is a problem. So like I said, the implementation and enforcement is our major problem. So whether you like, go and do a proceed of what's it called? Wealth. Wealth bill or whatever on the explain the wealth. You know, even though it's on explain what you're talking about, all these are called by our law. If you are in the position of authority or in government position and you are any more than what you have, they can infestigate you. And when they infestigate you... Who's they? Who's they? Because you say... Who's they? No, we have DSS, we have the police, we have the... These are their job. Their job is to do infestigation and expose the corruptions. So they are the agency of government responsible for that work. So if they do their job, they will be able to expose people who are corrupt in terms of their... In the course of doing their job. So what is the challenge of the EFTC, the ICPC? We have all of them, the DSS. Why do you think that they're unable to... Because I don't think I want to use the word unable. They are very capable. We see them, I mean, we saw the barat issue. We saw the diamonds. We saw the jewellries from the former minister of aviation. So what's stopping them from investigating other politicians that have wealths that are inexplicable? Even those who are infestigating, they have wealth that are inexplicable. How do you mean? Because I know some of them, we know the salary, some of them are any, and we know the lifestyle they are living, and we know the kind of car they are driving. So it's very difficult. So in this country, insincerity is one of our problems. Major problem we have, insincerity and lack of political way to... You know, our structure is in a way, is such in a way that look, once you are in a position of authority or once you are in a good book of the grossing government, you are likely to go away with anything because people will just close their eyes to what you are doing. It's when you are now against them that those things will not be exposed. You see, a situation whereby people who are committing crime will be protected. And those who are, they will tell you it is a young constitutional for them to expose people who are committing crime. For example, the issue of the bandit's and bookworms or whatever, because we are told some of them have been arrested, but they will not expose them. The people who are alleged to have stolen money or political, to have been corrupt politically, their names have been rolled out by the same government. So you can see the insincerity in what is happening. So the enforcement and implementation, if it's not well thought out, or if there is no fairness and equity in implementing it, there is no way you can get results. So our problem is not about whether lack of law or lack of. We have enough law on grant. There is also what is called breach of trust, the criminal breach of trust. If you are in a position of authority and money is given to you and that money, you divide it to another area. In fact, if you are giving money, say for instance, to go and construct a particular road and you did not use the money for your benefit, they use the money to buy that thing that will be beneficial to the government. That is an offence under our law. For example, if you go to bank now again, you borrow money and the purpose of that or borrow that money was that I want to use it to build a house. You now use the money to marry another wife or you use the money to buy a car. That is what is called confession. So it's an offence. So stealing is there. It's about doing investigation and punishing people for community crime. So it's not about bringing in a new law, bringing in a new order or whatever. We have laws in assistance that can cater for all these things that have been already. I'm struggling with the thought of the fact that we have a government in power that rolls to power on the wings of coming to fight corruption in the system and reading the country somewhat of it. You're telling me that in 2021 that our agencies that are set up to deal with corruption have corrupt people in them and that's why in your words they are unable to investigate these things. I'm also struggling with the fact that we have these institutions and they are unable to function. So I'm asking how do we build strong institutions that can stand alone without being the let's say dogs of the government in power, whether it be the APC, the PDP or whatever party? It's going to be difficult for us to be able to build an institution in this country because we rely on individuals. When we talk now, we talk about body language. When we talk, we talk about social person. You don't talk about institutions, you talk about individual. So the more we talk about individual, the more we'll be able to resolve the issue. But if you have a system that works, whether or not that person is there, you'll be able to cure whatever is happening there. So the issue of structure, give our system not working the way it should work is a major problem. So the institution whereby those in the authority will not, will say because this is my person or this is my, it's from my community, it's my ethnic member or it's we are both Muslim, we are Christian, we are this and that. Based on that you cannot. So you're saying we're part of the problem? Is that what you're saying? The Nigerian society is part of the problem and that's why our institutions cannot be strengthened? We are, majority of us are part of the problem. So does this mean that we're going to keep wallowing in this situation because in one breath you're saying we have to but in the other breath you're saying it's going to be difficult but can we still at least achieve it? I doubt if you can. Is there a possibility? I doubt because except we have a leader of those in government who come and change in the way, you ask what they are saying? Not say something. But if you just painted a picture of those in government as being very corrupt, how will very corrupt people want to build institutions that are strong enough to investigate them? No, if they are sincere and they are ready, that's why I say if you are a leader who is ready to fight the corruption or is ready to lead by a sample, not by what he says alone. Because I remember when this current president came into power in 2015, the first week everybody was doing the writing because you were talking about this man will not take no sense. The after two or three weeks they realized that this man is more or less like the same thing with the people already on the ground. Everybody went back to their normal system and they didn't continue. So in other words, if you have a leader that is ready to lead by a sample, they are ready to say, look, as a political officer there, you must do this, you must do that. You must not go to this place to do this. That same person is also not going the same way. When you say you are a leader, you say look, as a government officer you must not travel to a social place, you must not do this and this and that, and you are doing the same thing. You expect people to not to follow you. Can we find such leaders in today's Nigeria? That's why I say it's going to be difficult because as it is today. So you're saying that you yourself cannot be a leader that is corrupt free? No, it's going to be difficult. I'm not saying we can't get it. It's going to be difficult because the system that will bring out a leader in this country will not, if you don't have money, if you don't have money, you may not be able to get there. And most of the people that fall in the category of people who are looking at may not even have the ability or the money or the capacity to be able to get there. And if you are able to get there through people who have money, there is no way they will not control you. There is no way you will be there alone and say, yes, you have been voted into power, you cannot control me. There is no way. So where does that leave the average Nigerian right now? The only situation where things can change is when all of us are ready for the change. What do I mean? If we all see a political system or if we develop more interest in who governs us, who becomes our leader, who becomes our governor, who becomes our president, who becomes our member, if we don't leave it for people who are corrupt, because today what we say is that people who see themselves as saints in quotes leave the system for those who they say are corrupts, people they call devil, people they call criminals and they are expecting those criminals, those people they call criminals to bring results for them or to change situation to them positively. There is no way you can see any change from anybody. So if you want that thing to change, we all must be interested in it. We must all participate and change our attitude. The attitude of average politician is the attitude of an average Nigerian. If they don't have the opportunity, they will tell you this and that. When they get there, they join them. That is the situation of things. So everybody is waiting for his turn. That's what the majority of Nigerians are waiting for. They are waiting for their turn when they get to his turn so they are able to get his own money quickly. So until we all change our attitude and we have the interest of our people in other words, what I mean is in government not to make money, I mean government not to be rich, but I mean government to serve people. When we see government as being government, as service, that is when we are going to have a proper change. Well, Tunji Abdulameed is a legal practitioner. Thank you very much for speaking with us. We appreciate it. Thank you very much. All right. Well, thank you all for staying with us. We'll take a short break now to hear what Nigerians have to say about the unexplained wealth order. And when we return, I'll give you my take. This unexplained work deal is really well established in other countries like in the UK. I think it's very necessary in Nigeria because the wealth we have presently is not sufficient. The matter of declaring of assets, people do have ways of suppressing that law. So I think once you give this play how you end this money, if you end the money in a legitimate way, I think it's very necessary that you sign it into law. Yes, I think so. I believe so. And if that is done, I think it will stop a lot of these corruptions we have around and people will be up and doing, especially for those honourables, the ministers, the government officials and all that are crying with in very coros man and all that. So signing those laws will actually, you know, stop those guys from these illicit affairs. Well, either the president signs it or not. I think it's to cut corruption, corruption. So either signing it or not. Corruption is still the country. So any which way? Signing the bill is not even the problem because the present government now that we are now, this president regime, let's stay from top to the least. All of that are corrupt. I don't think there's any way someone can stop corruption in this country. So if you want to sign it, let him go ahead and sign it. If you don't want to sign it, all the slides for them, but I don't think anything can stop corruption on this one because corruption is ruptured deep into our blood. Well, the people, they say, the government, they say, are a reflection of the people. You cannot give what you do not have as Nigerians until we decide that we want a society that is corrupt free and that we will lead, by example, and when we say leading, by example, it begins with you in your home, in your place of work, in your business. Stop taking those kickbacks and under the table or brown envelopes. We all have to start where we stand for corruption to get kicked out of this country or even reduced to its barest minimum. So until we're ready, it's never going to happen. I'm Mary Annacol. Have a great day.